Epson Calibration Guide! (1080, 1080UB, 6100, 6500UB, 7500UB) - Page 15 - AVS Forum
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post #421 of 732 Old 09-10-2009, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by mawood333 View Post

I'm doing something way wrong here. When I adjust greyscale I can get RGB to be almost 100% for the 80/30 windows. Red may be around 96% for the 80 window. When I run a greyscale test and look at the luminance graph, my red is through the roof which seems to be causing a really red picture.

I dropped my red gain and offset way down until when I ran a greyscale test the luminance was about right. Now when I check my 80/30 windows my red % is 75/65 respectively.

I have no idea what is going on or how to fix this. help? Here is my color hcfr file.


For the 80 window you only adjust the gains. For the 30 window you only adjust the offsets. You then need to go back to the 80 and readjust the gains, then the 30 and readjust the offsets, etc, until they don't need readjustment. You then run the grayscale test to see how well you did (and also what your gamma is). Is this what you are doing?

That's all I can think of that may be causing the high dE's.
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post #422 of 732 Old 09-10-2009, 10:22 AM
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yes i did that the first time, here is the hcfr from that calibration

red gain was maxed out which seems to make the picture look far too red

what does it mean when red luminance is that high compared to the others? the average luminance is spot on

i guess i can try bumping contrast and maybe green gain down so red gain isn't maxed out. . . ?

 

Color_after.zip 4.23828125k . file
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File Type: zip Color_after.zip (4.2 KB, 3 views)
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post #423 of 732 Old 09-10-2009, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mawood333 View Post

yes i did that the first time, here is the hcfr from that calibration

red gain was maxed out which seems to make the picture look far too red

what does it mean when red luminance is that high compared to the others? the average luminance is spot on

i guess i can try bumping contrast and maybe green gain down so red gain isn't maxed out. . . ?


You need to drop your contrast to get the red luminance in line. I would drop your contrast at least 2 notches, do the 80/30 adjustments, then rerun gray scale and see what you've got. My guess is that you will need to drop contrast some more. You can drop the green gain and that should help the red. How many hours on the lamp? Dan says that as the lamp ages it loses red faster, so maybe you have a number of hours on your lamp.
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post #424 of 732 Old 09-10-2009, 11:53 AM
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I'm at 2200 running on high. Maybe I should wait until I get a new bulb.
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post #425 of 732 Old 09-11-2009, 11:26 PM
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Well i've given up on greyscale. I used some values that had been posted that I liked for my RGB settings on Dynamic.

I calibrated my gamma and primary / secondary colors correctly and am liking the picture much better.

I guess I will try to do greyscale right when I get a new bulb.

My only question . . . Is it bad to have too high of a luminance? Doesn't this mean the picture is brighter (better)? It seems like if I have my RGB levels about right then it doesn't matter that much . . . ???
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post #426 of 732 Old 09-14-2009, 06:21 AM
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I have the HC6100 and a medium grey screen and have calibrated using DVE BLU-RAY.I would like to know if anyone else has a similar setup to compare numbers.
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post #427 of 732 Old 09-22-2009, 02:02 PM
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I don't mean to be obtuse but I just installed the 1.09 firmware and it erased all my calibrations.

I thought I had a picture calibrated using some info posted by stereomandan, but after looking through this thread for 5 minutes, I didn't find anything.

Anyone have a good calibration (perhaps his) for a projector that has only been used about 50 hrs?

Many thanks. Also wondering if there could be different ones.

Mainly all I need are:

Blu Ray
or
Sports (Football)

My projector is in a dedicated room so I control all light. Thanks!
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post #428 of 732 Old 09-23-2009, 05:26 AM
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Stereomandan / Smallpooldad / etc.

Apologize for the seemingly noob question here, as I am dusting off the rust and trying to get back in to calibrating as I haven't used the Greyscale & Colour Calibration For Dummies guide since late last year. A lot of good reference information has been added to the forum since then, much of it compliments to the two of you. I now have a replacement unit and need to do this calibration all the way through (beyond just grayscale which is where I stopped when I found out my first unit had dead pixels) and after reading for days and catching up on 6 months of posts (a cram job) I planned to just scoot through Dan's guide, and also reference Smallpooldad's two checklists. Then I got stuck in the mud on the starting blocks with a brainfart by getting confused on how to do a simple visual initial contrast adjustment.

I have done a lot of searching, but the term Contrast is used so much I still haven't found the needle in the haystack post on this is the best way to do it Can you help me out in what is the best way to set Contrast on the intial go? (realizing it may need to be adjusted later to get the best custom gamma curve)? I think I understand Smallpooldad's approach because it seems to follow from the Dummies guide (of getting 12-16 ftL but where Smallpooldad indicated on his 6100 he tries to stay around 10.5 ftL...though I suspect this could be a function of a specific meter he uses and how far he places his sensor from the screen for this measurement and how those conditions may or may not relate to my setup). But, I guess what I am really wondering is since this may need to be adjusted later to optimize custom gamma settings, I planned to follow Dan's suggestion of Set by eye with AVSHD pattern..." The trouble is that I have forgotten how to do this. Whereas using the visual method for brightness is very straightforward to me, it appears as though with setting Contrast, the reference information on how to use the AVSHD White Clipping Pattern is all about subjective judgment, or cranking it up until you don't see this or that bad phenomena. But, given the failings of how this might later cause trouble in gamma adjustment, this just doesn't seem very precise or targeted of an approach to me. Moreover, I am not sure if it is a good thing to see as many bars contrasted above 235 as possible.....or, if you should crank up the contrast (independent of what you see on the bars vs. background above 235....so long as 235 itself is distinguishable and I don't notice other problems as referenced in the AVSHD guide (i.e. discoloration or eye fatigue....the latter of which I am unsure how I would objectively determine in a snapshot moment in time vs. how it might impact me later when I am one hour into movie....and one could say, just turn it down then.....but all my calibration work will then be for nought since the foundation is being moved.

Anyway, if you have a quick and dirty summary of the visual steps you walk through on the AVSHD pattern (I am correct in using the White Clipping Pattern I assume) it would be helpful.

Thanks
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post #429 of 732 Old 09-24-2009, 07:40 PM
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Hi,

Will like to know what the settings are for the PS3 that you guys have set up?

For example, under video settings: Video output format and Display Settings.

Thanks
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post #430 of 732 Old 09-25-2009, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

The best you are going to get is to use your Blu-ray calibration and transfer that over to all of your other sources. You will most likely need to adjust brightness and contrast for the other sources. Find some programming that has black scenes to adjust brightness, and for contrast, look to make sure that you are not blowing out your whites.

Sometimes color saturation can be off with other sources also, so you may need to bump that up or down.

Dan


Are there any sources for test patterns for brightness or contrast that can be downloaded and put on a usb drive? Then, you could plug them into a set top box and view them as a picture? It appears that many modern day set top boxes can play jpegs from a usb drive (or maybe even a short video file depending on the encryption) and you could use that to transmit something more "standard" through your signal chain from the STB so that you could be more accurate in settng the brightness and contrast.
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post #431 of 732 Old 09-25-2009, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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davedelite,

Regarding Contrast for these Epsons, yes I use the AVSHD blu-ray test disc, and use the contrast patterns with the flashing white bars. Set contrast until the bars above the reference bar (235 I think) stop blinking. I have found that this can cause a slight greyscale error at 100% white though, so I back down the contrast around four notches from the setting that the pattern gives you. There are no drawbacks to doing this, except a slighly lower lumens output. With how my PS3 is setup, the pattern tells me +11 is the correct setting, but to get linear greyscale I need to back it down to +7.

Hope this helps. By the way, very good idea about using the USB port on many set top boxes. You may be able to search the internet for a contrast pattern that you could put on the USB drive.

Dan
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post #432 of 732 Old 09-25-2009, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

By the way, very good idea about using the USB port on many set top boxes. You may be able to search the internet for a contrast pattern that you could put on the USB drive.

Dan

the only problem is, that I am not sure if the idea is actionable without set of relevant test patterns. Any ideas for a brightness and contrast image one could load on the USB? I did a search today for test images on USB and all I could find was prepackaged USB drives that ran full test Image sets for calibrating pcs...and thus required an operating system like windows tonrun the file....which clearly won't work on a stb
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post #433 of 732 Old 09-28-2009, 05:50 AM
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Finished my first rountrip "Natural" mode calibration last night. I have not figured out what I need to do insofar as measuring the colors with the sensor to gather the data and input in Dan's spreadsheet, but here is the data through customized gamma tracking on the Natural mode in a .chc file. Any comments? (look at file in zip folder (6500UB_142hrs_NatLoGreyScaleCal.zip)

My 6500 UB settings are in the spreadsheet in the file (Epson 6500 UB Calibration Settings.zip) Column "O" is for my calibrated Natural mode that the chc file here corresponds to.

Also, I have done a greyscale for my LR mode as well. I have not yet done a custom gamma. Any comments on if I should do something to improve this greyscale or not before going on would be appreciated. Any thoughts on what gamma I should use as well. I have a completely light controlled room and use Living Room mode with little overheard lighting for sports viewing. The PJ itself, esp in this mode, provides most of any light (though I have some other lights in specific zones on dimmer settings for sports viewing). The file for this greyscale is in (6500UB_142hrs_LRLoGreyScaleCal.zip) and the PJ settings correspond to column "G" in the excel file.

Less important, but still worthy of feedback if anyone is inclined, is a review of my "pre-custom gamma" (i.e. just after greyscale) .chc file for Theatre Black 1 mode. I may take this one the distance in calibration and see how it compares to Natural. Obviously, I would still need to do gamma and Dan's 75% color method. But, any feedback on settings and greyscale at this point would find open ears. .chc file is in the zip (6500UB_142hrs_TB1LoGreyScaleCal.zip) and the PJ settings are in column K of the spreadsheet.

 

6500UB_142hrs_NatLoGreyScaleCal.zip 4.466796875k . file

 

6500UB_142hrs_LRLoGreyScaleCal.zip 4.3115234375k . file

 

6500UB_142hrs_TB1LoGreyScaleCal.zip 4.310546875k . file

 

Epson 6500 UB Calibration Settings.zip 6.65625k . file
Attached Files
File Type: zip 6500UB_142hrs_TB1LoGreyScaleCal.zip (4.3 KB, 5 views)
File Type: zip 6500UB_142hrs_LRLoGreyScaleCal.zip (4.3 KB, 6 views)
File Type: zip 6500UB_142hrs_NatLoGreyScaleCal.zip (4.5 KB, 5 views)
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post #434 of 732 Old 09-28-2009, 06:55 AM
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davedelite,
Your natural gray scale looks really good.

For you living room, you need to turn your contrast down some. If you turn on the individual colors on in the luminance graph, you'll see that you are running out of red near the top, and if you turn your contrast down a couple tick this will help, as well as improve the gamma. Your turn on the RGB colors on the luminance graph by right clicking and selecting the colors from the pull down menu.

I think you should try different gamma's and see what you like. I could be wrong on this, but I beleive a higher gamma has some effect on the FI. It seems to me that a higher gamma makes the picture more "soap opera" like.

Dan's spreadsheet is most helpful in the 75% approach, as it tells you what the Y value needs to be, as well as the color balance between the 3 colors for the primaries and secondaries. Read his hint on using the percentages of the colors to dial in the correct setting rather than looking at the xy coordinates. It really goes fast using the percentages.
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post #435 of 732 Old 09-28-2009, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knd View Post

davedelite,
Your natural gray scale looks really good.

Thanks. I was surprised how close I got the gamma. Targeted 2.15 at 10% and 2.22 throughout the remainder. It drops a bit at 100 or 90...but I will never notice that and it is not worth any further messing with it. I was also surprised to see it come out as good as I thought when had to set one of the sliders for Red (think it was offset) at 30. Phewww!!! I think I might have found the efficient frontier of contrast on this one as one more tick up in contrast and I would have run out of red..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knd View Post

For you living room, you need to turn your contrast down some. If you turn on the individual colors on in the luminance graph, you'll see that you are running out of red near the top, and if you turn your contrast down a couple tick this will help, as well as improve the gamma. Your turn on the RGB colors on the luminance graph by right clicking and selecting the colors from the pull down menu.

OK....I thought that might be the case, but I didn't really know "how good" one should expect to get LivingRoom mode. I take from your comments that you see no value in me changing Skin Tone, Color Saturation, or Tint...the basic settings, any on this? Just turn down contrast two ticks and try it again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knd View Post

Dan's spreadsheet is most helpful in the 75% approach, as it tells you what the Y value needs to be, as well as the color balance between the 3 colors for the primaries and secondaries. Read his hint on using the percentages of the colors to dial in the correct setting rather than looking at the xy coordinates. It really goes fast using the percentages.

Yes, I used that method and it was EAAZZYYY. Tickled pink about that. Getting gamma dialed in was the hardest....but the colors were easy with Dan's method.

Can you tell me, however, what do I need to do in order to put the "inputs" into Dan's spreadsheet in order to check the color calibration gamut? I konw how to use the software for grayscale and all that, and used it for gamma and Dan's method...but now that everything is supposedly dialed in for my Natural I am unsure what I need to do in order to take the measurements to then get data to populate in "inputs" section of Dan's spreadsheet. The only tab I have used thus far on his spreadsheet is the first tab.

Lastly, did you have any feedback on my Theatre Black 1 gray scale? I still need to get gamma set up for it.....and like Living Room, have only done the gray scale thus far on this mode.
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post #436 of 732 Old 09-28-2009, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by davedelite View Post

OK....I thought that might be the case, but I didn't really know "how good" one should expect to get LivingRoom mode. I take from your comments that you see no value in me changing Skin Tone, Color Saturation, or Tint...the basic settings, any on this? Just turn down contrast two ticks and try it again?

Can you tell me, however, what do I need to do in order to put the "inputs" into Dan's spreadsheet in order to check the color calibration gamut? I konw how to use the software for grayscale and all that, and used it for gamma and Dan's method...but now that everything is supposedly dialed in for my Natural I am unsure what I need to do in order to take the measurements to then get data to populate in "inputs" section of Dan's spreadsheet. The only tab I have used thus far on his spreadsheet is the first tab.

Lastly, did you have any feedback on my Theatre Black 1 gray scale? I still need to get gamma set up for it.....and like Living Room, have only done the gray scale thus far on this mode.

On page 3 of this thread Dan posted his Dynamic, and on page 4 Smallpooldad posted his, so you'll have 2 to compare to see what is possible. They have the 1080UB I believe, so there may be some slight differences. I did a living room calibration earlier, but decided to do a dynamic instead as the calibration looked about the same, but dynamic has more light output (but after calibration it may be the same). I'm confused by your settings spreadsheet as you have a couple living room listed and on one you have tint at -7, but the others at 0. I think Tint and overall Saturation at 0 are OK. Yes, I think you should lower contrast (it will probably take more than a couple of ticks) and rerun gray scale until the red luminance line track closer. Then I would suggest that you use the custom gamma (from graph) to fine tune your gamma. Pulling down the sliders makes the gamma line go up, but don't adjust the 1st or last slider, just the one in between. Dan's spreadsheet has the target Y for 10 to 90 so you can put up a pattern and then take a reading and use the custom sliders to try and hit the number. Dan suggests that you start with 90% and work your way down. Note there is one less slider than steps so the sliders on the right affect more than just one level (2nd from the right affects at least 80%, and 90%). It is very difficult and I only do this initially. I then just keep running gray scales and adjust sliders a couple of ticks and re run gray scale again - but up to you on your approach. Gamma took me some time.

As far as Dan's spreadsheet, on the 1st tab all you put in is your 100% Y reading. It wll calculate the rest. Also, if you want to set a gamma other than 2.22, then you just put in the target gamma and it will calculate what the various Y's need to be.

You need to take the 30 saturation reading in HCFR to provide the information for the 2nd tab, "input data". You go to Measures, Saturations, All Colors. HCFR will then prompt you to 0% Red and start taking the 30 readings (5 readings for the 6 colors). You then cut from HCFR, xyY Red, 0%, 25%, 50%, 75% and 100% values and past them into the table on the left with blue numbers (don't forget to put your 100% Y into the top of this table). Once you have loaded all the primaries and secondaries (by cutting and pasting from HCFR), the following tabs will be populated and you can see how well your color calibration is. Green is the real challenge when doing anything in Living Room or Dynamic.

As far as your Theater Black calibration you will need to use the custom gamma sliders to improve that. To be honest, I only have 2 calibrations, natural and dynamic. On the 6500 (and probably the 1080), Epson has a lense that is in the light path for all the theater and natural settings that corrects the green issue. It removes the lense (or whatever it is) for living room and dynamic settings (that's why the light output is so much higher), but the green is technically not as good.

Hope this helps.
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post #437 of 732 Old 09-28-2009, 03:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Knd, just wanted to say thanks for staying on top of this thread and the help you are providing. Sometimes I can't check the reply's and don't have the time to respond.

Dan
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post #438 of 732 Old 09-29-2009, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

Knd, just wanted to say thanks for staying on top of this thread and the help you are providing. Sometimes I can't check the reply's and don't have the time to respond.

Dan

Thanks. I really enjoy helping where I can, but my knowledge base is very limited.
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post #439 of 732 Old 09-30-2009, 04:53 AM
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Stereomandan, Smallpooldad, Knd, etc.

I finished my calibrations tonight for Living Room, Natural, and TB1. All with low lamp. Couple of questions and an observation or two.

First, as Knd mentioned previously when I only had gray scale calibrations to post a few days ago, it appears that my Natural was taking good shape at that point. I have since also completed the custom gamma and 75% saturations for primary and secondary colors for all 3 modes I set out to work on: Living Room, Natural, and TB1. Could you take a look at the files attached and tell me if the resultant calibrations look logical and sufficient to you? Also, a couple of questions and observations for your comment are below.

1) Note that it appears to me that Natural came out really well, as did TB1, both being quite easy to work with and get dialed in. This latter observation regarding TB1 was surprising given the comments in this thread and its preceding thread that led me to believe that TB1 would be a challenge. In the end, and so long as I am interpreting the chc files correctly, I found TB1 no more of a challenge than Natural to work with. However, I did end up with a slightly lower total brightness output. It could be that this brightness difference (as detected through the Y value for 100% gray window) was due to another observation I made with TB1 that was different than with LR and Natural. That observation is that after I did the gamma and 75% saturation calibrations I decided to check the “brightness” calibration again. I found out that unlike in Natural and Living Room, the gamma calibration had a meaningful impact on the brightness setting to the point that my brightness appeared to be 1.5 to 2 clicks too dark specifically, At this point I would need to move brightness up from the pre custom gamma number of -10 to -8 in order to be correct. Should I do this? Or, was this an OK and expected result (meaning it was taken care of in gamma calculations) and going back and changing brightness now will then cause me to necessarily go back and introduce error into the gamma work I did, and then cause a need to redo gamma, etc. and iterate? Or, is this observation irrelevant because once you do the gamma dial in you don’t worry about the brightness? If I am supposed to adjust the brightness, just tell me if I need to redo gamma and/or the 75% Saturation method thereafter. Thanks

2) Regarding Living Room...it was by far the most difficult to get dialed in from the perspective of running out of red and then subsequently getting gamma to track. Knd had pointed out that I needed to reduce contrast from my original of 9. (note, all of my settings here are in Expanded mode) I kept taking it down 3-5 clicks and re-running gray scale and it was not until -18 that I was able to get red to reasonably track in luminance graph. I maybe even could have gone further from a “calibrator’s” sake, but I was tired of losing so much brightness in the process and thought I had gotten “close enough.” I think, all things considered, the final calibration is maybe good for a LR mode. (please give me your two cents here as I am no expert of what to expect in this mode) But, it sure appears that I had to kill a lot of image light output or brightness by taking contrast down so far (see the overall 100% white value in this mode is now only 30.7 vs. the 26.8 for the calibrated Natural mode). Any thoughts on why I might have had to move contrast down even further than Stereomandan observed for his Dynamic calibration? Could it be that I have hit a threshold for light output in my room? I have 8 foot walls painted in dark olive army type green with a cove ceiling smaller than the total ceiling (square within a square..) that is stepped up another 1-1.5 feet. The step up cove is beige...so it is lighter but not right against the screen. (a picture is posted on Seymour AVs website here....look at the second picture down of my install if you want http://www.seymourav.com/installsfixedDIY.asp ) I got to wondering if maybe I have just too much light in the room at that point?? Anyway, I would be interested to know if you think I should be happy as a clam where I am? Or, if there is something obvious in my initial settings that I could change (tint or other) that would have allowed me to keep contrast higher (and thus total brightness) when I did the gray scale calibration? In the end, and for practical use, I am likely “bright enough,” because other than the beige to medium tone carpet and upper level cove ceiling, the room is a complete bat cave so the only light I have to deal with other than that I insert via lighting zones to see the popcorn, etc. is the reflected light from the screen, etc. Which does have a significant ability to put light into the room when watching sports, etc.

I have included all of my output files below. I have also included an Excel table of my settings. Lastly, I DID find a black scale and white scale set of calibration images off of a web site after more search than should have been required. Those are included herein also. Due to the source, their resolution is crappy, but I think they are fine to get the job done as I will explain. So, I downloaded the images (they were .png) and converted to jpg so that my different sources could read them. I put one set on a SD card and put in my Blu-Ray player. Put the same set on the USB stick for my Dish Network STB. I then was able to take my calibration from the AVSHD Blu Ray source in “Expanded” mode and map the brightness and calibration settings over to my Dish Network STB in “Normal” mode. My finding was that contrast did not need to be changed at all for either Natural and Living Room modes, but I needed to increase brightness 3 clicks for each of those modes when running in “Normal” mode via the STB relative to the source of the calibration being from “Expanded” mode on the BR palyer. That seemed to be the best possible method I could come up with to correlate the calibration work I had done on the Blu-Ray player over to the source (Dish STB) that I actually use 80% of the time. The one frustrating learning out of this is that the PJ does not recall the “Expanded” or “Normal” setting by source or by memory settings. Hence, I have to remember to leave it in “Normal” when using the STB and to change it to “Expanded” when watching a BR player. I presume that is the best approach here. However, I did come up with a question in my mind for you all regarding whether or not there is any harm in just leaving the PJ in “Expanded” all of the time (even for the STB) and re-correlating the brightness and contrast settings, recognizing that I may need to change brightness more than 3 clicks if I was to have left the PJ in Expanded mode. Just a question as to if there are any other side effects of leaving it in Expanded mode when the source itself is likely a Normal type source (as I would imagine this STB to be)

Thanks for all your help and contribution to this forum. Dan’s guide really made this easy. Once it was understood, the most difficult part to execute was the custom gamma and the grayscale for difficult light modes. (both due to the iterative nature...expecially the gamma where you have to go in and out of “customized settings” so frequently). The color calibration with his excel file and trick were awesomely easy.

 

6500UB_142hrs_NatLo.zip 394.6396484375k . file

 

6500UB_142hrs_TB1Lo.zip 394.7529296875k . file

 

6500UB_142hrs_LRLo.zip 394.4501953125k . file

 

Epson 6500 UB Calibration Settings_1.zip 7.37890625k . file

 

StaticBrightnessContrastImages.zip 17.33984375k . file
Attached Files
File Type: zip StaticBrightnessContrastImages.zip (17.3 KB, 4 views)
File Type: zip Epson 6500 UB Calibration Settings_1.zip (7.4 KB, 3 views)
File Type: zip 6500UB_142hrs_LRLo.zip (394.5 KB, 2 views)
File Type: zip 6500UB_142hrs_TB1Lo.zip (394.8 KB, 2 views)
File Type: zip 6500UB_142hrs_NatLo.zip (394.6 KB, 2 views)
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post #440 of 732 Old 09-30-2009, 07:43 AM
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Natural looks very good. TB also looks good, but you gray scale on natural is even tighter. Your LR file looks quite good, and you got the 75% green to be pretty close. I could never get it that close, so I may have to do a LR calibration to see how that compares to my dynamic calibration.

I'm not sure I can answer your question on brightness. What I do is set brightness, then contrast and back and forth until there is no change. I then go on to gray scale and gamma and I don't look at brightness and contrast again (until I do a complete "touch up" calibration a few hundred hours later). When I have done a "touch up" calibration the brightness is always very close to the original setting, so I have no experience with this changing.

I'm really surprised about how much you had to lower your contrast. I think I had to drop mine about 8 or 9 ticks on my last dynamic cal, although my results aren't as good as yours, so maybe if I pull my down a little more I can tighten up my gamma some.

I think you should be happy as a clam where you are, and in particular with your natural cal. If you want to try something else, watch a movie with FI on low at this cal. Then raise your gamma to 2.3 or slightly higher and rewatch the movie with FI again. I'm convinced that a higher gamma makes the picture look more soap opera like (mild 3D?). I'd be curious if you come to the same conclusion.

I leave my projector in expanded mode all the time. I also don't make any adjustments to brightness or contrast for HDTV, as I mostly watch sports and it looks good to me this way.

Not sure how much help this was, but based upon my limited experience these look like very good results. How does the picture look?
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post #441 of 732 Old 10-01-2009, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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davedelite,

The calibrations look great. Once my bulb had more hours on it, I also needed to severly reduce my contrast (like yours) if I wanted a flat greyscale curve in the Dynamic or Living room mode. I now have about 1500 hours on the bulb, and decided to sacrifice a little greyscale accuracy for light output. My 90% and 100% greyscale is lacking in red, but it's hard to notice on these bright patterns. Whites still look white. I also have a red drop at 10 and 20% or so. It's a sacrifice I'm willing to make to get a very bright picture. You may want to give that a try since your mid grey area is high on red anyway.

Also, regarding your LR calibration, your green at 75% is great, but you might want to try this trick. See how your 100% green is scewed a lot towards yellow? This is a side effect of dynamic and LR mode. This makes 100% green more of a lime green, flourescent looking green. What I did was move my 75% green a lot further over towards cyan, which pulled the 100% green into a better more natural looking green. I think my green hue is maxed out towards blue actually, a full 64 clicks. If you do this, you will need to double check yellow and cyan as they will be impacted. The change at 75% green is barely noticeable, but the 100% green looks much better, and things like grass look much more natural.

To be honest, I'm VERY happy with Dynamic mode, and it's what I watch 90% of my content on now. It's really only 100% green that is the problem. Other than 100% green, you can get all the other colors to look very natural. Far better than most projectors out of the box. I think many would be very surprised by how good it looks.

I also run my gamma at about 2.3 for the bright dynamic modes, like Knd does, since it looks better and the shadow detail still shows up since it is such a bright mode.

Regarding having to move brightness after you do gamma... I've never had to do that more than one click, but yes, it's o.k. to change it back to where it should be. Double check gamma though. You aren't touching the far left slider in the gamma control correct? That will change brightness for sure.

Dan
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post #442 of 732 Old 10-02-2009, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

The calibrations look great. Once my bulb had more hours on it, I also needed to severly reduce my contrast (like yours) if I wanted a flat greyscale curve in the Dynamic or Living room mode.

I hear ya, but my bulb only has 145 hours on it. Forecasting forward I can see me having real problems at higher hours since I will run out of room to adjust contrast lower I bet. One of the reasons I wondered if I should just pick different brightness, contrast, tint, and color saturation starting points for Dynamic and LR. I don't seem to recall seeing your suggested starting points for the Dynamic mode or LR mode...only for Natural.

By the way, do you run at low bulb output on all your modes? Or, do put it to high in the LR of Dynamic modes? Or, is there a point in the lifecycle (# of hours) of the bulb that you just click it up to high power for all modes so that you can get back to how it looked around 100-200 hours, etc. and then ride the decay curve again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

I now have about 1500 hours on the bulb, and decided to sacrifice a little greyscale accuracy for light output. My 90% and 100% greyscale is lacking in red, but it's hard to notice on these bright patterns. Whites still look white. I also have a red drop at 10 and 20% or so. It's a sacrifice I'm willing to make to get a very bright picture. You may want to give that a try since your mid grey area is high on red anyway.

Mid-gray is higher as a result of my focus on getting the Luminance to be much tighter pursuant to Knd's observation. I don't have any problem in reducing red, and will now do that as I am happy bringing mid grey's down but the red luminance will just to move north again and I had perceived (possibly incorrectly) from Knd that this would make gamma and colors later even that much more difficult. However, I will give it a shot because I am disappointed with how much brightness I lost because I see less of a difference in flipping from Natural to LR mode now after calibration.

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Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

Also, regarding your LR calibration, your green at 75% is great, but you might want to try this trick. See how your 100% green is scewed a lot towards yellow? This is a side effect of dynamic and LR mode. This makes 100% green more of a lime green, flourescent looking green. What I did was move my 75% green a lot further over towards cyan, which pulled the 100% green into a better more natural looking green. I think my green hue is maxed out towards blue actually, a full 64 clicks. If you do this, you will need to double check yellow and cyan as they will be impacted. The change at 75% green is barely noticeable, but the 100% green looks much better, and things like grass look much more natural.

Interesting suggestion. Two questions:

1) So, the process is to move the green hue all the way towards blue after saturation and brightness are set as I have them now? Or, do I have to reset saturation and brightness for green after I do this over-ride on the green?

2) Then go back and redo yellow and cyan with original 75% method and don't worry about any of other colors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

You aren't touching the far left slider in the gamma control correct? That will change brightness for sure.

Correct. I am not touching far left or far right sliders at all.


Lastly, what is theoretically different between "non-filtered" modes like LR and Dynamic anyway in that if you calibrate them won't they end up looking the same basically? Meaning the internal firmware presets are different of course for these modes, but if you converging them both to the "as calibrated" result won't they look the same? I know TB1 and TB2 have filters, etc. But, I thought from Natural, LR, Dynamic they had very different presets but you could essentially move them close to each other (especially by driving contrast down on Dynamic and LR)? My experience with -18 contrast on LR and the fact its 100% gray is not only a few percent greater than it is on 100% gray on calibrated Natural seems to validate this perception.
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post #443 of 732 Old 10-02-2009, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by davedelite View Post

I hear ya, but my bulb only has 145 hours on it. Forecasting forward I can see me having real problems at higher hours since I will run out of room to adjust contrast lower I bet. One of the reasons I wondered if I should just pick different brightness, contrast, tint, and color saturation starting points for Dynamic and LR. I don't seem to recall seeing your suggested starting points for the Dynamic mode or LR mode...only for Natural..

As my bulb aged, I opted to use a higher color temp for my greyscale. To be honest, it actually looks very natural for the greys. I've always considerd 6500K to be a little too warm/red for grey. ( I know, slap my wrist for saying so, but it's what I see) I'm now close to 7500K, which is about 105% Green, 105% Blue, and 79% red. If you set your greyscale this way, you can acheive much higher lumens because you don't run out of red very easily. It will move your entire color gamut away from red though, so you will need to reset your color saturations. Just make sure you do greyscale and gamma before you adjust the color saturation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davedelite View Post

By the way, do you run at low bulb output on all your modes? Or, do put it to high in the LR of Dynamic modes? Or, is there a point in the lifecycle (# of hours) of the bulb that you just click it up to high power for all modes so that you can get back to how it looked around 100-200 hours, etc. and then ride the decay curve again?.

I ran at low lamp when the bulb was new, but went to high lamp at about 800 hours or so due to bulb aging. There is no set rule for this. I just noticed that the picture was getting dim, so I bumped to high lamp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davedelite View Post

Mid-gray is higher as a result of my focus on getting the Luminance to be much tighter pursuant to Knd's observation. I don't have any problem in reducing red, and will now do that as I am happy bringing mid grey's down but the red luminance will just to move north again and I had perceived (possibly incorrectly) from Knd that this would make gamma and colors later even that much more difficult. However, I will give it a shot because I am disappointed with how much brightness I lost because I see less of a difference in flipping from Natural to LR mode now after calibration..

Moving your color temp higher, like I mentioned earlier will allow you to acheive a MUCH higher lumen output.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davedelite View Post

Interesting suggestion. Two questions:

1) So, the process is to move the green hue all the way towards blue after saturation and brightness are set as I have them now? Or, do I have to reset saturation and brightness for green after I do this over-ride on the green?.

Don't move green all the way towards blue without checking to see if you went too far. Mine is all the way towards blue, but you may not need to go that far. If you set HCFR to continious measure mode, you can go to the cie diagram tab and see where your color is located on the gamut real time. This can be very useful. Flip back and forth between 75% green and 100% green and set the green hue to get a good balance. My 75% green is shifted towards cyan, but 100% is still a little shifted towards yellow. It's a nice balance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davedelite View Post

2) Then go back and redo yellow and cyan with original 75% method and don't worry about any of other colors?.

You will want to check mainly yellow and cyan. The other colors may be slightly impacted so you will want to just double check them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by davedelite View Post

Correct. I am not touching far left or far right sliders at all.


Lastly, what is theoretically different between "non-filtered" modes like LR and Dynamic anyway in that if you calibrate them won't they end up looking the same basically? Meaning the internal firmware presets are different of course for these modes, but if you converging them both to the "as calibrated" result won't they look the same? I know TB1 and TB2 have filters, etc. But, I thought from Natural, LR, Dynamic they had very different presets but you could essentially move them close to each other (especially by driving contrast down on Dynamic and LR)? My experience with -18 contrast on LR and the fact its 100% gray is not only a few percent greater than it is on 100% gray on calibrated Natural seems to validate this perception.

The LR and dynamic modes remove a piece of glass out of the way of the lamp, internal in the projector. This piece of glass is colored, and filters the colors to a more balanced, accurate mode (especially green). The downside is that it severly reduces light output. There does also seem to be some internal setting for red green and blue gains as well in the non-filtered modes, which really drives up blue and green, which makes you reduce contrast since you run out of red. If you opt for a higher color temp for greyscale, you can get much higher lumens as I describe above.

Yes, you should calibrate the same for both, but the non filtered modes throw you a curve ball with the greens that are hard to adjust. If you use this 75% method, even dynamic mode can look very good in my opinion.

Dan
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post #444 of 732 Old 10-02-2009, 08:17 AM
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Dan,
Great tip on the higher color temp for more lumens. I know what I'm going to be doing this weekend.
I've been running my replacement unit at high natural and have a little over 10 ftL (from HCFR), so I will try this technique to see if I can get close to this at low lamp. The bulb only has about 110 hours on it.
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post #445 of 732 Old 10-02-2009, 09:36 AM
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I found the tip on setting "HCFR to continious measure mode, you can go to the cie diagram tab and see where your color is located on the gamut real time." to be very interesting. I will try that. Did not know you could do that.

Also, I knew that moving the color temp much higher would increase lumens output, but I though the entire goal of the grayscale adjustment was to get 100x100x100 at both 30% and 80-90% windows for all 3 colors to get a true calibration, and to then get a good gray scale that allows you to get good gamma tracking that then allows you to dial in the 75% saturations. I did not know you could get comfortable with 105% Green, 105% Blue, and 79% red throughout the gray scale and still get good gamma and color saturations. In fact, this is why I moved color temp down to 6000 at one effort in LR (utlimately moving it back to 6500) in order to reduce blue through the entire range. I had started off at 7000 or 7500 and realized in order to get 100x100x100 it was going to be a losing battle to get to enough red...

But, if you are saying we should try having less red throughout, then different story. Can not imagine my Delta E's will be less than 3 then.

Dan, what would help a lot is for you to just post your chc and gamut outputs for the different calibrations you have done over time on Living Room and Dynamic (i.e. file at x hours, x+y hours) etc. I think you posted one here or there I saw back when... (I could be wrong and they are all posted somewhere..if so, just point me to the post numbers) It would be most helpful for me to see what you color tracking looked like over the various gray scale windows, or the luminance curves, etc. before I went on to the other activities. Not sure how far "away" from the technically ideal calibrations I got on Natural I should get to obtain a visually appealing picture that is a lot brighter....seeing what you discerning eye is viewing as good would help me since I am still getting a feel for the balance between technically pure, vs. practically achievable while not losing too much brightness in the LR and Dynamic modes.

I think I will be taking a shot at Dynamic tonight to get it set up and try it for this weekend's football games.
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post #446 of 732 Old 10-02-2009, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Keep in mind that my suggestion to run with less red is not in agreement with "standard, proper calibration" I have found it to be a comprimise for my aging bulb, and a way to boost lumens. It's not a 100% correct method, but since Dynamic and Living Room modes aren't 100% accurate anyway, I tried it out and I like what I see.

Keep in mind that R=79%, G=105%, B=105% is pretty extreme. Something along the lines of R=89%, G=102%, B=102% may allow a very nice boost in lumens as well without having a huge impact to the look of your greyscale.

If you keep the balance of R=89%, G=102%, B=102%, or R=79%, G=105%, B=105% through the entire greyscale range, your gamma can still line up with 2.22, or 2.30, whatever gamma you prefer. (many old CRT TV's had a gamma closer to 2.5) The key is to keep the levels consistent.

Yes, your DE's will be way off for grayscale, since they reference D65 R=100%, G=100%, B=100%

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post #447 of 732 Old 10-02-2009, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
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If you keep the balance of R=89%, G=102%, B=102%, or R=79%, G=105%, B=105% through the entire greyscale range, your gamma can still line up with 2.22, or 2.30, whatever gamma you prefer. (many old CRT TV's had a gamma closer to 2.5) The key is to keep the levels consistent.

And if you do R=89%, G=102%, B=102%, or R=79% and get a 2.3 gamma, are you then able to get the 75% saturations where you need them using your spreadsheet? I thought the % numbers for adjusting colors (e.g. for red= 378%, 24%, 24%) were based on a gamma of 2.22. I recall some discussion somewhere on how these were supposed to be different for or not track at the 75% level to these spreadsheet numbers if your gamma was not 2.22 but I got confused and just thought I would use gamma 2.22 so that the 75% numbers worked. However, given I am going to fudge a bit on gray scale to get more output (and also on gamma to match a better gamma of 2.3 for brighter image) I am just wondering how accurate the method will be in your spreadsheet to get my colors dialed in so I can then modify green per your previous posts if I start with gamma 2.3?
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post #448 of 732 Old 10-02-2009, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, if you use 2.3 gamma, the 75% saturation locations move. The third to last worksheet in my Excel file addresses this. The worksheet is called "Ref Points Adj for Gamma". The instructions are at the top.

Unfortunatly, since there are so many gamma choices, I can't provide the simple % bar colors for each 75% saturation point like I have for 2.22 gamma. If you want to get the % bar locations, do this. Go into a HCFR file and click the Editable data box on the main sheet. This will allow you to enter data into the cells below. If you enter the new 7%% reference points, you will see that the % bars show up on the left.

Dan
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post #449 of 732 Old 10-03-2009, 03:52 PM
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Well, I finished my calibration work..., at least almost finished I think. I may still go back and fiddle with Living Room and Dynamic settings some to get more light output, but might wait a few days. While I think I am going to be happy with all this calibration work for my movie viewing in either Natural or Theatre Black 1 calibrated settings I have derived, I wont know for sure until I get a chance to watch some Blu-ray movies, which could be for some time now that we are in the heart of football season. Also, I am starting to wonder if my eye-one is actually very accurate for red level readings (read on to see why I mention this).

The final calibration files do seem to indicate I have pretty good calibrations for TB1 and Natural, but I am no expert. With TB1 I did have to go back and re-do gamma, brightness, gamma, brightness, etc. since they clearly impact each other, etc. Took longer than I wanted (since I observed after initial gamma settings that I no longer had enough brightness. In the end, my brightness had to be moved higher by 3 clicks from -10 to -7 and then the gamma had to be redone to get back to 2.22. But, like Natural, TB1 lines up very well with all of the specs that are being used as guidelines now in the calibration output files.

Now, my level of comfort with my Living Room and Dynamic modes is another story. In fact, my observations make me wonder if either I have a bad eye-one, or if you just really have to cool down the images from Living Room or Dynamic modes like Dan said he does. While my Living Room output files herein attempt to get to 6500, the Dynamic attempts to get to 7000 and used the lower red suggestions from Dan (i.e. R=89%, G=102%, B=102%). But now I am wondering if I need to go with the more aggressive plan of R=79%, G=105%, B=105% and 7500 color temp for Dynamic, and use that same approach, or minimum of R=89%, G=102%, B=102% and 7000 for Living Room. A couple of observations cause me to suggest this, which I will list below:

1) I first noticed as I continued to crank down contrast (so that I did not run out of red and I could get better RGB tracking and better luminance tightness) that the white contrast pattern on the AVSHD disk started showing pink to red hues. I took note of it but moved on.

2) My light output in these modes (note all my work so far is in low lamp mode) is a bit better than Natural, Living Room being more than Natural and Dynamic more than Living Room, but not even close to what the original settings were and not even close to Knds Living Room Low Lamp calibration I used as a reference point from post #294. Knd's Y output is much higher, since I measured a complete calibration set of output files for his settings on my pj and my environment. In fact, his output for Living Room is much higher than mine for Dynamic because his contrast setting is so much higher. I have posted below all relevant .chc and Excel gamut files (Dans file) for my current Living Room, my current Dynamic and also Knds post #294 settings as inserted in my projector. Stereomandan and Knd please look at these and tell me any insights you have. Knd, please tell me how these full output files compare to your output files from post #294 (not sure I ever saw the .chc or excel files posted) [Note, I have used Dans hue trick for green on the Dynamic calibration but have not gone back and done it with LR yet because I might have an entire fundamental change of strategy in so far as RGB values and color temp to pursue after I get comments on this post].

3) Anyway, the output files seem to indicate my calibrations for LR and Dynamic are quite a bit better than Knds settings on my system and environment. However, with that said, I dont think the picture I have gotten out of my LR and Dynamic calibrations is a lot better than the one derived from Knds shared settings from post 294. Color accuracy is likely a bit better to the eye, but it is not a huge difference to my eye. While his settings on my pj suffer in red value and also luminance tracking (and the colors dont look to track as well), I have not noticed significant effects in football watching (like I did with the out of the box greens on the RS1 that I sampled once). Also, when a white screen is projected I then notice that his settings produce a white that looks much more correct than my Dynamic or Living Room settings that seem to have way too much red/pink in them. (just like noted in the AVSHD white pluge pattern when I had to crank down contrast so far to get luminance to tighten and track)

Please tell me if you guys can make any sense of this or give me a recommendation. Should I go back and turn my contrast up on the white pluge contrast image to where I don't see pink, and then just pick a cooler color temp and less Red in the gray scale throughout? In general, I can live with the PQ overall from my LR, Dynamic and even Knds LR mode....the latter giving me a sense of comfort that my whites wont look pink, but the colors not being quite as accurate When I flip back and forth between them I cannot see major difference betweens my LR and Dynamic in real life, and Knds LR setting either...though the latter is clearly brighter than even my Dynamic settings due to my low contrast and might be a bit over-saturated in a few color areas.

In the end, I am wondering if either my sensor is just way off in not being able to be sensitive to red (and therefore when all my files say I have reached an optimum calibration I really have too much red), or if I just need to get much more aggressive on the cool side...choosing higher contrast in Living Room with R=89%, G=102%, B=102%, color temp of 7000; and even higher contrast in Dynamic with R=79%, G=105%, B=105% and color temp of 7500. (and, is this correct? that r=89%, etc. is matched to color temp 7000 and r=79%, etc. is matched to color temp 7500....)

Thanks for all your help along the way. I think I am nearing my completion of calibration work at this stage of bulb lifecycle...though, I am feeling like I have not "nailed it" as good as I can yet for LR and Dynamic insofar as finding that I have got it set as good as possible for balancing the "PQ to the eye" and the calibration "as measured by the equipment."

 

Color_6500UB_142hrs_LRLoGreyScaleCal.zip 394.56640625k . file

 

davedelite 6500UB with KndLivingRoom_Lo.zip 395.7197265625k . file

 

Color_6500UB_172hrs_DynLoGreyScaleCal.zip 395.154296875k . file

 

Epson 6500 UB Post Calibration Settings_01.zip 6.79296875k . file
Attached Files
File Type: zip Epson 6500 UB Post Calibration Settings_01.zip (6.8 KB, 3 views)
File Type: zip Color_6500UB_172hrs_DynLoGreyScaleCal.zip (395.2 KB, 2 views)
File Type: zip davedelite 6500UB with KndLivingRoom_Lo.zip (395.7 KB, 1 views)
File Type: zip Color_6500UB_142hrs_LRLoGreyScaleCal.zip (394.6 KB, 1 views)
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post #450 of 732 Old 10-04-2009, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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davedelite,

When I moved my white point to 7500K (by reducing red), I then went in and redid my color saturations, hues, and brightness. I could get a good looking result according to the color gamut charts. However, when I looked at some Blu-rays, I found that I had WAAAY too much red and yellow saturation and brightness.(by eye) This is probably similar to what you are experiencing.

I reduced red and yellow significantly (by eye), until I got a reasonable result. I'm still in the experimental stage of moving the white point in Dynamic mode, and what I need to do to the color gamut to compensate. I'll fill you in once I have a better handle on it.

One thing to try:
Take your calibration in Dynamic mode where you calibrated to 6500K and 75% saturations, and gamma. (the one with the low light output, just a little higher than natural mode). Now, redo your greyscale with the red reduced significantly so that you can boost your contrast and get a lot more lumens. Don't touch your color saturaion, hue's or brighntess. How does it look on Blu-ray? You'll notice that your entire color gamut will be shifted to the left, but I'm curious if it looks o.k. to you. I need to go back and try this, since I can't remember how it looked since I jumped right into color saturations, hues... once I had reset my greyscale to 7500K.

Dan
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