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Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread (NEW FIRMWARE V1.1)

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#1 ·
[EDIT 06-05-09: I have edited this first post to add some info from the first calibration thread and to make it a useful table of content to the new calibration and CMS thread]


This thread is a continuation of the original official RS20/hd750 calibration and CMS thread here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post15314888 .


As the old calibration thread is mostly obsolete regarding CMS calibration with the arrival of the new firmware, we have decided to start afresh!


First things first, you need to upgrade the firmware before using the tips available in this thread.


A - NEW FIRMWARE

Where to get the firmware update (and common installation issues): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post16355768

CAUTION: the new firmware erases ALL settings, so if you have general settings or calibration settings you wish to keep, make sure you make note of them before upgrading.


There is a wealth of knowledge regarding greyscale and gamma calibration in the original calibration thread. So here is a list of the most important posts which are still mostly relevant with the new firmware:


B - GREYSCALE: (from original thread, but info still relevant)

Before we get into CMS settings, the first thing to do is to get the best possible greyscale using only color temps adjustments, as this will make a huge difference with THX (and other presets). As already reported, some excellent tips are available here to achieve this from Mark Petersen Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum and also from Googer and others in the rest of the thread, here is one of Googer's great posts about gamma: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...#post15522847]


C - TWEAKED THX (from original thread, but info still relevant)

Once you have a custom color temp that gives you as perfect a greyscale as possible, the next step is to select the THX preset and enter the service mode (up/down/right/left/enter as fast as possible, either on the remote or the pj). [DISCLAIMER: be very careful when in this mode, you enter it at your own risks, if you make a mistake, don't blame me!]. You can then select a different color temp (for example the custom one you've just tweaked
), and this will be the color temp used by THX. You can now exit the service mode. This will make a HUGE difference to the ootb THX preset, as it will use a greyscale which is likely to be pretty good from 30 IRE up to 100 IRE, instead of a greyscale which is quite flat but off badly over the whole range, whether in normal or high lamp. More info about achieving this here Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 29 - AVS Forum


If you like this "tweaked THX" preset, which is very close to rec709 - although slightly undersaturated for some - with a standard gamma, you can stop here and enjoy your PJ. If you do find it undersaturated, you can add anything from 1 to 12 - depending on your taste - to the general color control (I personally add 1-5 depending on source). That's it. Job done.


If you want to go one step further, and be able to use a custom gamma, sharpness and detail enhancement controls and adjust the gamut to Rec709, SMPTE-C or to your own taste, then have fun with the next section which is mostly about custom CMS settings...


D - CUSTOM SETTINGS, REPORTS and CALIBRATION TIPS with the NEW FIRMWARE


As members post reports/settings and calibration tips in the thread, I'll try to update this section with the most significant contributions (in chronological order).

Please let me know if I have forgotten something or if I get sloppy updating...


Reports from the pros:

GregR : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16360087

Tom Huffman: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post16383023

Tom Huffman#2: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16431819

Settings:

Manni01 (1.4 gain screen): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16365507

JeffY: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post16371803

Karrih: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16380924

008: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16383359

Nelson4u: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16388557

Ignace: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16389657

LovingDVD: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post16482286

Lawguy: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16428562

Manni01 (1.2 gain screen): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post16431351

MarcelW: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16433669

Lawguy LT vs i1Pro http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post16438408

RickS (HDMI Enhanced): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16630004

Manni01: back to 1.1 gain/new lamp, and HDMI Enhanced, settings for Rec709 and SMPTE-C http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post16662220

Manni01: updated Rec709 and SMPTE-C calibrations, along with a PAL calibration: http://www.avforums.com/forums/dlp-l...ml#post9767111

Calibration Tips:

Classic beginner's mistake and link to Tom Huffman's CMS calibration tutorial and GregR's calculator thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post16370193

How to use filters to check brightness (LovingDVD): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16372917

When/why NOT to use filters (GregR & Tom Huffman): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16373717 and http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post16380651

dE discussion: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post16374865

Tom Huffman's spreadsheet for CIELUV: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16378927

GregR's DisplayCalibration Calculator: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16382042

Get a screenshot in HCFR: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post16383268

Which USB cable for the firmware upgrade?: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16383437

Training a meter to another in HCFR: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16384494

Adjusting greyscale (GregR): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post16387960

Link to Calibration for Dummies: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16402839

Use of filter and calibration tips (Darinp2): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16431819

Saturation levels explained (Tom Huffman): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16439382

Sharpness/focus adjustment tips (GregR / LeDahu / Deanbob): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16689752

Great tips/tools for gamma calibration (LovingDVD / LeDahu): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post17017488

Gamma tweaking V1.2 (english translation and VERY IMPORTANT SPECIAL PROCEDURE): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post17045339

Gamma tweaking V2 (Le Dahu): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post17060116

Contrast and RGB (Tom Huffman et al): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post17150298

REST OF INITIAL POST:


I have done a first attempt with the new firmware, and the news is mostly good!


- The range for the controls has been extended from -60 to 60 (instead of -30 to 30), which gives enough range to dial the gamut perfectly without touching the general color control. Well done JVC!


- The linearity is good but not perfect. Most colors stay where they should, but green seems to be a bit oversaturated at 75% when calibrating at 100%. Nothing compared to the first firmware, but still not perfect. [edit: this was due to an error on my side, there is NO LINEARITY problem with the new firmware].


- I had only time for a quick calibration today, so I'll post more later. I attach my HCFR files for those who want to have a look at the details (EDIT: I used a brand new i1pro to calibrate).


If you want to try my settings (only after upgrading the firmware), here they are:


[EDIT: please do not use these settings, I and others have posted updated settings, see links above].


Contrast=0

Brightness=0

Color=0

Tint=0


Color temp (new lamp, probably not useful for most of you)

Gain R=-24, G=0, B=-54

Offset R=-1 G=-3 B=0


CMS (H,S,B)

Red -4 -23 7

Yellow 22 -44 38

Green -5 -39 44

Cyan -3 -48 39

Blue 37 -8 -4

Magenta -6 0 -3


I didn't have time to do any fine-tuning on gamma etc...

 

New firmware.zip 153.3935546875k . file



 

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#327 ·
Manni. You are right. I was up until 4AM but not tinkering, watching through a DVR all the sports I missed live yesterday. Of course no color wheel. I mixed up projectors forgetting that of course the JVC is a three chipper. But it still leaves the question. Why the variation from the other machines with the same prism and light sources?
 
#328 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd /forum/post/16390435



....I was very pleased with the results. I have attached some screens for you to review showing the measurements at 75% and 100%. Forest green and grass never looked so good!


Here are the CMS settings for Rec 709.


Color Hue Sat Brightness

R 2 -24 10

Y 3 -44 34

G -10 -42 32

C -2 -48 38

B 0 -25 9

M 2 -31 16


I must say that with these settings it REALLY now looks like "looking out a window" especially nature scenes. In fact it looks so natural and "real" that I may actually stick with Rec 709 instead of using things a bit more souped up.


If you have any questions please let me know and of course comments are always welcome.

Great settings. I tried these on my projector which resulted in a better "fit" than anything so far. The difference for me is in more natural reds, skin color - and blues closer to THX.


However, I am still having some difficulty with obtaining natural looking flesh tones from all the CMS setting including THX. Skin looks typically darker than I expect even with gamma set at Natural. Too high a Gamma is the only thing I can think of that would give skin a tendency toward a "Tanned "skin look. Any ideas?


KT
 
#329 ·
Can someone please explain the procedures and patterns to use to measure contrast ratio on the RS20 using ColorHCFR ? I can not find test patterns Ansi 1 and Ansi2 that ColorHCFR program asks you to use. I am using the AVSHD 709 test patterns.
 
#330 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel /forum/post/16388621


I just read this entire thread and it looks like JVC has really come through with the CMS fix! Now I am really wondering whether I should change my order to an RS-20 or stick with the PD8150...



Every time I read posts from many of the experienced calibration people I find what they say to be confusing, so I just go away with no new knowledge, but reading posts from Greg Rogers and Tom Huffman I always learn something and their explanations make perfect sense. You guys just have much better communication skills, or at least for me. Many thanks for the hard work that you share with us and and an even bigger thanks for your easy to understand explanations.

My guess is that you'll be happier with the PD8150, Bob.
 
#331 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich /forum/post/16391089


Why the variation from the other machines with the same prism and light sources?

No idea. I didn't design these, I'm just trying to use one
.


It's not only the gamut, I never managed to measure a better on/off in the high lamp mode as many users have reported.


I'm not sure there isn't something wrong with my unit, I have brightness issues even with a replacement lamp, so I'm waiting to hear from JVC about this. This is also why I'm not finetuning my calibration yet (especially my greyscale), as either the unit or the bulb is likely to get replaced.


But is looks like LDVD has sorted us out in the meantime!
 
#332 ·
Here is a bit about the existence of the CMS upgrade for the US. I just got a RS20 in today that my distributor received from JVC on Friday. I was curious if the unit had the new software. Otherwise I would open it and install the software before delivery to my customer. JVC US customer service had no knowledge of any software upgrade and said nothing had been released by JVC for US consumption. I said well it has been released in the UK and a lot of US customers were installing it. They said that`s nice but in the US they had nothing to give US customers. My guess is that JVC is limiting official distribution to the UK as a continuation of beta testing. Something like that. just a guess at an explnation. Whatever. The CMS is deficient on all units sold in the US, the download posted here fixes it, and just install it and use it. I am going to install it for my customer.
 
#333 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich /forum/post/16395071


Here is a bit about the existence of the CMS upgrade for the US. I just got a RS20 in today that my distributor received from JVC on Friday. I was curious if the unit had the new software. Otherwise I would open it and install the software before delivery to my customer. JVC US customer service had no knowledge of any software upgrade and said nothing had been released by JVC for US consumption. I said well it has been released in the UK and a lot of US customers were installing it. They said that`s nice but in the US they had nothing to give US customers. My guess is that JVC is limiting official distribution to the UK as a continuation of beta testing. Something like that. just a guess at an explnation. Whatever. The CMS is deficient on all units sold in the US, the download posted here fixes it, and just install it and use it. I am going to install it for my customer.

It hasn't been released in the US. The main gentleman in charge will be letting me know to do the announcement. US is always behind, but, they may have a different version. That I don't know.
 
#334 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk /forum/post/16395157


It hasn't been released in the US. The main gentleman in charge will be letting me know to do the announcement. US is always behind, but, they may have a different version. That I don't know.

Jason -


Thanks for the info.

It seems that JVC should say something -- either they won't support, will, or a different version is coming out.

That will help people plan for pending calibrations (such as myself).



Mike
 
#335 ·
"Why the variation from the other machines with the same prism and light sources?"


Lamps vary quite a bit in brightness and presumably spectral properties.


It would be interesting to put the same lamp in different pj's with the same settings to see how much the electronics contribute.
 
#336 ·
I have ben following this thread and learning a lot. I have been up late night like most of you trying to get things perfect. I have what I consider a great picture compared to my old DLP, and the CMS gives me great color control to hit Rec 709


My only question is about brightness and contrast ratio on a calibrated projector. I am measuring directly off a 100" Firehawk with an I1 Beamer and the projector is about 17' away from the screen with a good amount of lens shift. I am seeing about 1000:1 contrast and 6-7ftL when measuring light output. This was a full open Iris. This sounds really low compared to others, but like I said the picture looks really good in my "bat cave".


Does this sound way off, or am I just being too obsessed with the numbers.


thanks


Joe
 
#337 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by joemacjr1 /forum/post/16395652


I have ben following this thread and learning a lot. I have been up late night like most of you trying to get things perfect. I have what I consider a great picture compared to my old DLP, and the CMS gives me great color control to hit Rec 709


My only question is about brightness and contrast ratio on a calibrated projector. I am measuring directly off a 100" Firehawk with an I1 Beamer and the projector is about 17' away from the screen with a good amount of lens shift. I am seeing about 1000:1 contrast and 6-7ftL when measuring light output. This was a full open Iris. This sounds really low compared to others, but like I said the picture looks really good in my "bat cave".


Does this sound way off, or am I just being too obsessed with the numbers.


thanks


Joe


You are not obsessed, but an i1 Pro will never give you a good CR measurement. You need different tools. The i1 is not sensitive enough and it is not very good at measuring front projection screens with gain.
 
#338 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by joemacjr1 /forum/post/16395652


I have ben following this thread and learning a lot. I have been up late night like most of you trying to get things perfect. I have what I consider a great picture compared to my old DLP, and the CMS gives me great color control to hit Rec 709


My only question is about brightness and contrast ratio on a calibrated projector. I am measuring directly off a 100" Firehawk with an I1 Beamer and the projector is about 17' away from the screen with a good amount of lens shift. I am seeing about 1000:1 contrast and 6-7ftL when measuring light output. This was a full open Iris. This sounds really low compared to others, but like I said the picture looks really good in my "bat cave".


Does this sound way off, or am I just being too obsessed with the numbers.


thanks


Joe

It i1 is not the right instrument to meaure on/off contrast.
 
#339 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by joemacjr1 /forum/post/16395652


I have ben following this thread and learning a lot. I have been up late night like most of you trying to get things perfect. I have what I consider a great picture compared to my old DLP, and the CMS gives me great color control to hit Rec 709


My only question is about brightness and contrast ratio on a calibrated projector. I am measuring directly off a 100" Firehawk with an I1 Beamer and the projector is about 17' away from the screen with a good amount of lens shift. I am seeing about 1000:1 contrast and 6-7ftL when measuring light output. This was a full open Iris. This sounds really low compared to others, but like I said the picture looks really good in my "bat cave".


Does this sound way off, or am I just being too obsessed with the numbers.


thanks


Joe


You need something like this http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755705 , explanations courtesy of LovingDVD
 
#340 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich /forum/post/16395071


Here is a bit about the existence of the CMS upgrade for the US. I just got a RS20 in today that my distributor received from JVC on Friday. I was curious if the unit had the new software. Otherwise I would open it and install the software before delivery to my customer. JVC US customer service had no knowledge of any software upgrade and said nothing had been released by JVC for US consumption. I said well it has been released in the UK and a lot of US customers were installing it. They said that`s nice but in the US they had nothing to give US customers. My guess is that JVC is limiting official distribution to the UK as a continuation of beta testing. Something like that. just a guess at an explnation. Whatever. The CMS is deficient on all units sold in the US, the download posted here fixes it, and just install it and use it. I am going to install it for my customer.

The Service Bulletin and final software are available to all JVC subsidiaries around the world via our internal support system. The DLA-RS20-U (the specific version distributed in the USA) is listed on the Bulletin. Tell them to take a look at Service Bulletin No. YD-SB-00012. The version I distributed has a slightly different installer and instructions to make it more specific to the CMS update, but the files are identical.


I'll email Japan tomorrow to see if I can find out if/when the US will be distributing it.
 
#341 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI /forum/post/16395373


Jason -


Thanks for the info.

It seems that JVC should say something -- either they won't support, will, or a different version is coming out.

That will help people plan for pending calibrations (such as myself).



Mike

Frankly, the firmware upgrade comes from JVC and specifically supports your model. It's not as if you were installing a firmware made for the HD-750 only. The RS-20 was delivered with a defective CMS. If JVC US gives you any grief about the new firmware, ask them to fix the CMS with something else or to give you a refund. You can't calibrate with the old CMS now that the new firmware is out...


Edit: Gary was faster...
 
#342 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by umr /forum/post/16395686


You are not obsessed, but an i1 Pro will never give you a good CR measurement. You need different tools. The i1 is not sensitive enough and it is not very good at measuring front projection screens with gain.

So if the grey scale is good and the CIE chart and measurements are on target and I have maximized light output, I should basically enjoy the show until I need to adjust for a lamp degradation or a new lamp.


Thanks for the explanation.


Joe
 
#343 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 /forum/post/16395713


You need something like this http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755705 , explanations courtesy of LovingDVD

A CA813 will confirm projector performance, but will not measure on screen performance in his case. The sensitivity of the CA813 is a problem along with screen gain.
 
#344 ·
I'm running into an oddity with the gamma I'm hoping someone can offer up some advise on.


I have a flat grayscale (de

When I measure with a default custom gamma with the correction set to 2.2, it measures an average gamma of 1.99. When I set the correction to 2.3, it measures 2.10. When I set to 2.4, it measures 2.18.


In all cases, instead of showing a near-flat horizontal line, the gamma graph starts out high from 0-30%, then flattens out around the average, then drops off quite a bit at the end from about 80-95%.


When my lamp was new, I didn't have this issue, and only needed to use gamma correction of 2.3 to reach a 2.2 curve, and without the wild swings.


At any rate, after another 7 hours of meticulous tweaking last night, I managed to use the white point and RGB points in the custom gamma settings to dial in a flat gamma of 2.2 that follows a horizontal line from 5-90% and then drops off (to like 2.0) at 95%.


However the challenge I am having is that skin tones have a bit or red push that is a bit bothersome, when compared to using the default gamma or a normal gamma.


I can't figure out what is causing this. I double checked my grayscale with the custom gamma a few times and it is flat from 5-100% (dE

Again, when I use the normal gamma or a default custom gamma the skin tones do not have the red push. But with my custom gamma it does.


What do you think can be causing this? How can I go about tracking this down and resolving it? I would think that my work to get a flat gamma of 2.2 across the range would have been worth it - but now I am questioning whether it was the right thing to do.


Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
 
#345 ·
Didn`t mean to start anything. Just install via the links, recalibrate and be happy. Why would JVC US offer something different? If they do, we can install that just saving your new calibration settings. Tom had mention one control that interacted with the brightness control and it shouldn`t but the brightness control operates with out the reverse interaction so just readjusting brightness takes care of it. Maybe they will fix the interaction problem but there really is no need as long as you readjust the brightness.
 
#349 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd /forum/post/16395948


I can't figure out what is causing this. I double checked my grayscale with the custom gamma a few times and it is flat from 5-100% (dE

Again, when I use the normal gamma or a default custom gamma the skin tones do not have the red push. But with my custom gamma it does.


What do you think can be causing this? How can I go about tracking this down and resolving it? I would think that my work to get a flat gamma of 2.2 across the range would have been worth it - but now I am questioning whether it was the right thing to do.


Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

That's unfortunate. I first noticed this same behavior on my RS1 a year and a half ago and again on my RS2/FPJ1. Both PJ's initially measured great then over time the declining gamma reared it's ugly head for which there is no cure. Dropping contrast to -15 or lower may help somewhat at first but as time progresses this declining gamma gets worse for which using the gamma controls will not cure due to some really funky coloring which occurs between the gamma correction points. I've been holding off from this PJ partially due to this gamma issue with hope JVC has finally addressed the problem and it appears they have not.
 
#350 ·
UMR,


A while back, you posted that the RS20's gamut was not linear and that it was therefore not a good idea to calibrate based on the outermost points of the gamut.


Do you still think this is true? Saturation measurments that I (and others) have taken, seem to show a pretty linear looking gamut. Are we wrong?
 
#351 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by joemacjr1 /forum/post/16396125


What is the correct tool to measure this off the screen ? And will this tool also allow me to get better measurements for grey scale and colors ?


Sorry for all the questions.


Joe

The tools I use will, but they are expensive. You may also be low on screen light level based on your comments.
 
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