Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread (NEW FIRMWARE V1.1) - Page 23 - AVS Forum
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post #661 of 1634 Old 05-18-2009, 07:08 AM
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I have had some more time to get into this area.
I spent a lot of time on the greyscale going over and over the settings.
The CMS was a little quicker to my surprise. Anyhow here are my results.

CMS settings

H S B

R -2 -27 4
y -9 -48 38
G -5 -47 33
Cy -3 -54 28
B 2 -10 2
M 1 -11 -9

The attached files are Greyscale and Gamut captures from Calman.

dE 's are to CIE94: (1.0 minimum perceptible error, 1.5 maximum acceptable error)
LL
LL
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post #662 of 1634 Old 05-18-2009, 08:15 AM
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I finally had a chance last night to finely tweak my gamma, grayscale and CMS. I was very pleased with the measurements.

However I did not finish up until very late, and therefore did not have much of a chance to evaluate the results with real-world viewing. Therefore I will preface this report by saying that these results and settings should be consider experimental until I've had a chance to spend some time viewing with these settings and report back over the next couple of days. Edit: on May 30th: I have now spent considerable time with these settings and they checked out great, so these are my final CMS settings (until the next time

This calibration was done with an Spyder 2 trained to an EyeOne. With my previous calibration I had retrained the meter several months beforehand. This time I retrained it at the start and the conversion matrix from the training was materially different (about a dE variation of 3-ish between the two). Considering how long it had been since previously training the meter I'm going to trust these more recent results unless my subjective viewing shows otherwise.

It is important to note that this training takes into account any color shift that my Firehawk may (or may not) have on the image. Also this was done with the iris fully open and in Normal lamp mode. Others have reported that iris and lamp can have a material impact on the settings. Also note that the dE of 4 at 50% reflected in the attached .chc was corrected down to a dE of 1.6 but I did not have the time to rerun the grayscale included. My lamp has about 300 hours on it.

Also note that I made EXTENSIVE changes to the custom gamma settings in order to flatten the gamma at 2.2 (with the exception of a sharp drop at 95%). This took over 6 hours in one session followed by about 2 houes of touch-up work last night. Without these changes it was not possible to truly flatten the grayscale in this manner nor was it possible for me to get a flat gamma across the entire range (I have posted questions pages ago about this and the need to fix it when I didn't have to previously with a new lamp, but disappointingly never got a response from the experts here).

Here are my latest CMS settings:


r 2 -26 10
y 5 -48 38
g 0 -44 33
c 4 -49 39
b 0 -24 10
m -1 -30 15


For quick reference dE measurements at 75% are:
r 1.7, g 0.8, b 1.9, y 0.9, c 1.3, m 1.5

For quick reference dE measurements at 100% are:
r 1.2, g 1.6, b 2.9, y 3.8, c 3.1, m 0.9

Perhaps the biggest difference between these numbers and my previous results (also with the latest firmware) is that I did not find it necessary to set the green hue at -10 this time around. Others never found this necessary either. I'm not sure if it is the meter training or something else has helped here.

Attached are two .chc files. Final.chc is my latest. The CMS was calibrated using 75% patterns and the gamut measurements in this file were also with 75% patterns. The final_100percent.chc file shows how the gamut measured with 100% stimulus patterns. Note that at 100% cyan, green and yellow become a tag under saturated. This is relatively insignificant IMO.

I could likely increase the saturation a few clicks for these colors so that they would be slightly over saturated at 75% and on target at 100%. However I have learned through all my work and experimentation and the feedback of others that it seems best to give priority to 75%, so I'm leaving this as is unless I discover a good reason to do something about it.

Also note that a lot of this is really splitting hairs. For instance, when dialing things in I might have cyan at say a dE of 2.0 and spend an hour dialing it in to 1.0, but when A/Bing the before and after versions of the colors they are virtually indistinguishable. At any rate I like to get it as close as possible to hopefully provide a bit more calibration buffer for errors as the bulb ages and the calibration drifts.

Overall I consider the CMS to work incredibly well with the new software. There does seem to be some IMO immaterial difference between 75% and 100% but this does not bother me in the least. Before there was a huge issue because it destroyed some colors like red due to the linearity issue, but with this all resolved and behind us I am a happy camper.

Note that to get the best results with these settings you will need to have your grayscale as flat as possible. This assumes that settings are transferable from unit to unit, which seems to be the case with some units but not others.

Enjoy!

Edit: Updated to remove experimental status and change to final, after now having spent considerable time reviewing real-world materials. Looks nice.

 

rs20_cms.zip 5.0810546875k . file
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post #663 of 1634 Old 05-18-2009, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigN View Post

I have had some more time to get into this area.
I spent a lot of time on the greyscale going over and over the settings.
The CMS was a little quicker to my surprise. Anyhow here are my results.

CMS settings

H S B

R -2 -27 4
y -9 -48 38
G -5 -47 33
Cy -3 -54 28
B 2 -10 2
M 1 -11 -9

The attached files are Greyscale and Gamut captures from Calman.

dE 's are to CIE94: (1.0 minimum perceptible error, 1.5 maximum acceptable error)

I think your grey scale looks great. So much so, I'm curious how you did a few things..

Where are you positioning your meter and what light level are you achieving with the wizard? How did you set up the Low Trigger settings? What offset / gain settings did you end up with?

I was able to dial the gamut in very close, but I just can't get the grey scale to behave, which throws off 100% white.

I also have a dip at 90% on the gamma curve that I have not been able to get rid of.
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post #664 of 1634 Old 05-18-2009, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by renmeister View Post

I want to purchase a JVC HD-750. Will I be able to use a 92" screen and fill it corner to corner side to side in 16.9 at a throw of 10'9" and a seating position of 8'6"aprx.? I'm looking to mount the projector on my book case which is also my headboard. Ceiling is 8' and so is the built in adjustable book case behind my bed. Thanks

If that is lens to screen then you should just squeeze it in if it is a 92" wide screen.

In my old room I was 10' 4" away and the picture was about half an inch too small. The extra 5 inches should be enough to get it fully filled.

If the screen is 92" diagonal then it will easily fit with loads to spare
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post #665 of 1634 Old 05-18-2009, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

.... In the meantime if anyone tries these settings please report back on what you think, especially if you have a chance to A/B these with my previous results (search back several pages in this thread for that).

Please post back on what you think about these latest CMS settings[/b] and how it compares to other settings you have been using. Note that to get the best results from this you will need to have your grayscale as flat as possible.

Well, Ldvd, I did indeed punch in your CMS values tonight, and now have yours, Lawguy's, and CraigN's in User 1, 2, and 3. And last night I went back and did my grayscale again, now that I'm more comfortable and confident in the process (with my I1LT and HCFR), getting dE's all below 2. And I use this Grayscale/Color Temp with all 3 CMS's in User 1,2,3, and also in THX.

I must say, that all 4 selections--User 1,2,3 and THX--are VERY similar, and miles better than the other presets. With User1,2,3 I do have Sharpness and Edge Enhancement set up to 20 and 5, and do notice the diff with THX (which doesn't allow this), and do like it.

Tomorrow, UMR (Jeff Meyer) comes to the house to do his thing, so I am VERY CURIOUS to see how his results will differ from what I've been able to cobble together. Maybe he will reveal some of his secrets. But then again, I'm not going to have his multiple $10K's of instruments to be able to apply them.
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post #666 of 1634 Old 05-19-2009, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

... But then again, I'm not going to have his multiple $10K's of instruments to be able to apply them.

Shurely, you'll notice the difference both for his skill-experience and for the better instruments to reveal something more, not last but first, a precision settings of Custom Gamma !!
Let Us Know !
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post #667 of 1634 Old 05-19-2009, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by mdrew View Post

I think your grey scale looks great. So much so, I’m curious how you did a few things…..

Where are you positioning your meter and what light level are you achieving with the wizard? How did you set up the Low Trigger settings? What offset / gain settings did you end up with?

I was able to dial the gamut in very close, but I just can’t get the grey scale to behave, which throws off 100% white.

I also have a dip at 90% on the gamma curve that I have not been able to get rid of.

I positioned my meter about 4" from the middle of the screen and used Calman window patterns for both greyscale and gamut (75%). Max white level at the start was about 48, I think. I have not been aware about the low trigger settings. Can you enlighten me?

Gain R 0, Gain G -28. Gain B -68,
Offset R -1, Offset G -2, Offset B -2

The greyscale levels at 10% did bounce around a bit when using the bullseye method and the results shown at 10% were representative of the closest at that level to the other levels. The other levels were very stable.

I must say that I used Manni's settings as my starting point or I am sure I would have been lost. My settings however produced the best fits for me with both greyscale and gamut.
I have a room with black surfaces all around and a 1.0 gain screen.


A few questions to this thread -

How directly transferable are CMS settings of others to one's own setup?

I realise that greyscale may need adjustments as the bulb ages and with a bulb change - but

once CMS settings achieve a reasonably accurate color gamut, should these settings hold for the life of the PJ?
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post #668 of 1634 Old 05-19-2009, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigN View Post

...
I realise that greyscale may need adjustments as the bulb ages and with a bulb change - but

once CMS settings achieve a reasonably accurate color gamut, should these settings hold for the life of the PJ?

I don't thinks so ...
You'll finish with an almost good CMS settings BUt not a Fine tuned CMS settings
IMHO, everytime you "touch" something ( lamp, greyscale, gamma, etc.. ) it's better to re-check the CMS
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post #669 of 1634 Old 05-19-2009, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Highlander_AVS View Post

I don't thinks so ...
You'll finish with an almost good CMS settings BUt not a Fine tuned CMS settings
IMHO, everytime you "touch" something ( lamp, greyscale, gamma, etc.. ) it's better to re-check the CMS

Those without calibration equipment will spend a fortune then
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post #670 of 1634 Old 05-19-2009, 05:33 AM
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LED or LASER will be the solution

1) You can calibrate the vpr as out of the box ( without waiting for at last 100 hours of lamp is much stable).

2) One time calibration over the whole diode duration ( 30.000 - 50.000 hours )

3) No need to recalibrate during the diode life due to it's constant performance from the start to the end of it's life

4) Extended and big coerent spectre of the source diodes that increase the Spectral Respose of a vpr

5) Extended use of the vpr to other sources and matherial such as games, due don't bother anymore at the limited old lamps life and try to preserve it for importat events as is now ....

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post #671 of 1634 Old 05-19-2009, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Tomorrow, UMR (Jeff Meyer) comes to the house to do his thing, so I am VERY CURIOUS to see how his results will differ from what I've been able to cobble together. Maybe he will reveal some of his secrets. But then again, I'm not going to have his multiple $10K's of instruments to be able to apply them.

This should be a very interesting day for you Please report back.
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post #672 of 1634 Old 05-19-2009, 09:45 AM
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[quote=CraigN;16488208]I positioned my meter about 4" from the middle of the screen and used Calman window patterns for both greyscale and gamut (75%). Max white level at the start was about 48, I think. I have not been aware about the low trigger settings. Can you enlighten me?

Gain R 0, Gain G -28. Gain B -68,
Offset R -1, Offset G -2, Offset B -2

The greyscale levels at 10% did bounce around a bit when using the bullseye method and the results shown at 10% were representative of the closest at that level to the other levels. The other levels were very stable.

[quote]


So was the meter facing the screen or the projector? I tried calibrating off the screen, but the lumens were just too low, so I have only calibrated with the meter right up close to the projector. I figured I'd get the projector calibrated first, save it in a user profile, then calibrate off the screen after I figure out how to do that.

The low light trigger is found if you select the show more options box on the meter set up screen. You can then select the light level to where the software takes several samples (you also select how many samples it takes). The software has some algorithms in it that compares all the low light samples and spits out what it thinks is an accurate summation. The Calman guys tell me this is very actuate, but it is also painfully slow

Over the past two days, I've got about ten hours into this. Most of which were getting the grayscale and gamma curve to achieve a somewhat flat grey scale. What a bitch that is I find the gamma controls to be incredibly cumbersome, and unfortunately, necessary to get the grey scale flat.

I'm very surprised you had to lower the Green Gain. I don't believe I've seen anyone do that yet.

Grey scale (DE of 1.4 is the best that I could get it):
Gain R-0, G-0, B-60 Offset: R +1, G-2, B+2

Gamma:
Custom curve of 2.4 with some major tweaking to yield an average of 2.15

My CMS (all under .75 DE):
H-S-B
R: +8, -23, +11
Y: +8, -45, +37
G: +22, -38, +27
C: -10, -42, +33
B: +39, -12, -1
M: +15, -27, +16

My main Color and Tint are 0. Iris is -3, Contrast is +15, Brightness is -5, the RS20's HDMI is set up for 4:2:2 and Enhanced. I use a VP50pro with all my sources running into it and its output is 4:2:2. I've found this to give me consistent contrast / brightness results, regardless of what source I'm running.
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post #673 of 1634 Old 05-19-2009, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdrew View Post

I'm very surprised you had to lower the Green Gain. I don't believe I've seen anyone do that yet.

Are you sure about that? I have never seen anyone who left green gain at 0.
Only the weakest color (mostly red) stays at 0. Doesn't your projection look very greenish now?
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post #674 of 1634 Old 05-19-2009, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcel W View Post

Are you sure about that? I have never seen anyone who left green gain at 0.
Only the weakest color (mostly red) stays at 0. Doesn't your projection look very greenish now?

Look back through this thread. Most lower Blue, some Red, but I don't recall anyone lowering Green.

No, the images do not look greenish. They look very good, better than THX. However, I must admit that after all the work I put into this, I may just be convincing myself that I did some good and didn't just make things worse.
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post #675 of 1634 Old 05-19-2009, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdrew View Post

Look back through this thread. Most lower Blue, some Red, but I don't recall anyone lowering Green.

No, the images do not look greenish. They look very good, better than THX. However, I must admit that after all the work I put into this, I may just be convincing myself that I did some good and didn't just make things worse.

It is common to need to lower green, along with blue. This is especially true as the bulb ages because it will start to run out of red, so the only way to balance it out is to lower green and blue.

That being said, the amount of green you needed to lower is indeed very surprising. How many hours is on your bulb? I recently recalibrated mine at 300 hours and IIRC I had to lower green to somwhere between -5 and -9 (can't remember exactly but can check if you want) along with typical blue (-60ish).

What really sticks out to me however is the amount of hue changes your CMS calibration resulted in. Those seem like very large changes. How does the picture look? Try putting in mine or other's posted CMS settings and A/B it with yours. If you are targeting Rec 709 your A/B comparison with mine and others should look at least quite similar to yours. If not you may want to recheck your #s.
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post #676 of 1634 Old 05-19-2009, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post


What really sticks out to me however is the amount of hue changes your CMS calibration resulted in. Those seem like very large changes. How does the picture look? Try putting in mine or other's posted CMS settings and A/B it with yours. If you are targeting Rec 709 your A/B comparison with mine and others should look at least quite similar to yours. If not you may want to recheck your #s.

Are you referring to my hue settings or mdrew's?

My lamp is about 150 hours "old". I agree my green settings are low but the greyscale capture in my post above shows the result. Am I missing something? Thanks for all your input as now a few novices have joined this thread with basic questions.
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post #677 of 1634 Old 05-19-2009, 05:02 PM
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I intend on reading this thread completely to get the best color settings, but I would appreciate a quick response to my question. Just got my RS20 last weekend. One of my test discs was Cars. Lightening McQueen is a RED car. I have read the THX settings are the best without further calibrating. Well before I downloaded the new firmware the car was basically orange. After firmware upgrade, the car is...orange. The Natural mode seems best to me before getting all into the settings....and yes the car was red and looks pretty good. So how can THX be that bad? Thanks
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post #678 of 1634 Old 05-19-2009, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigN View Post

Are you referring to my hue settings or mdrew's?

My lamp is about 150 hours "old". I agree my green settings are low but the greyscale capture in my post above shows the result. Am I missing something? Thanks for all your input as now a few novices have joined this thread with basic questions.

I think he is refering to mine. They are way out in the weeds...(green weeds).

When I was tweaking CMS, I couldn't help but wonder myself what in the heck I screwed up so bad to need so much more Hue than anyone else. I started out with all CMS settings at 0, then used the Calman Bulseye to set the colors. I just kept worked the highest DE (DH, DL, DC) to get them all under 1 DE.

LovingDVD, do you think it might be that I have the projector set to 4:2:2 and Enhanced that might be throwing things off so much? Or I supose it could also be my VP50Pro. I used its internal test patterns and who knows if they are acurate, or what it does to in the inputs before converting them to 4:2:2.....

Well at any rate, I am convinced that I've totally botched things up and I need to start over...... UG.
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post #679 of 1634 Old 05-19-2009, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdrew View Post


So was the meter facing the screen or the projector? I tried calibrating off the screen, but the lumens were just too low, so I have only calibrated with the meter right up close to the projector. I figured I’d get the projector calibrated first, save it in a user profile, then calibrate off the screen after I figure out how to do that.

My meter was facing the screen.

I am also going to try LovingDVD's latest settings tonight.
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post #680 of 1634 Old 05-19-2009, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigN View Post

Are you referring to my hue settings or mdrew's?

Referring to mdrew's.

Quote:


My lamp is about 150 hours "old". I agree my green settings are low but the greyscale capture in my post above shows the result. Am I missing something? Thanks for all your input as now a few novices have joined this thread with basic questions.

Put on a black and white movie. Or if you don't have one, maybe a movie with some black and white scenes. Good example is Sin City blu-ray in the beginning when they kiss and it goes to a black/white inverse looking scene for a few seconds. Does it look truly black and white, or a bit off colored? If the later then I suspect the grayscale is not set right.
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post #681 of 1634 Old 05-19-2009, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdrew View Post

I think he is refering to mine. They are way out in the weeds...(green weeds).

When I was tweaking CMS, I couldn't help but wonder myself what in the heck I screwed up so bad to need so much more Hue than anyone else. I started out with all CMS settings at 0, then used the Calman Bulseye to set the colors. I just kept worked the highest DE (DH, DL, DC) to get them all under 1 DE.

Yep the hue seems way off. Something is not likely adjusted right.

Quote:


LovingDVD, do you think it might be that I have the projector set to 4:2:2 and Enhanced that might be throwing things off so much? Or I supose it could also be my VP50Pro. I used its internal test patterns and who knows if they are acurate, or what it does to in the inputs before converting them to 4:2:2.....

Well at any rate, I am convinced that I've totally botched things up and I need to start over...... UG.

Not sure about your VP50Pro or 4:2:2 etc.

Here's what I recommend as a quick test. Put up a nice colorful scene. Sounds outdoors with a lot of grass and trees maybe. Then A/B your CMS settings with mine. If they look similar and you prefer yours, I'd say maybe something in your chain/settings is causing the settings to be different yet still right for your setup. If you highly prefer mine and/or yours looks way off in comparison then that would confirm that your calibration is indeed off. Let us know what you find.
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post #682 of 1634 Old 05-19-2009, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigN View Post

My meter was facing the screen.

I am also going to try LovingDVD's latest settings tonight.

Great - looking forward to hearing how you like it.

I did put in some limited viewing time last night and liked what I saw with my latest settings, with nothing objectionable. I'm going to put in some more time now, but so far so good.
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post #683 of 1634 Old 05-20-2009, 03:18 AM
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I've downloaded your last file.chc

I do not see any saturations reads ....

Can you post a complete file?

thank you so much,
acta.
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post #684 of 1634 Old 05-20-2009, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Referring to mdrew's.



Put on a black and white movie. Or if you don't have one, maybe a movie with some black and white scenes. Good example is Sin City blu-ray in the beginning when they kiss and it goes to a black/white inverse looking scene for a few seconds. Does it look truly black and white, or a bit off colored? If the later then I suspect the grayscale is not set right.

I tried this and things looked black and white to my eyes. I spent a few hours rechecking the greyscale and made a few minor adjustments but nothing major to green gain in the color temp menu. So I guess that is just the way my lamp is and also shows the benefit of individualised greyscale calibration.

Using the same greyscale I input your latest CMS settings and compared them to mine. There are some very subtle differences in blues only.
I did a Calman gamut run with both our settings and have attached the files for interest.
LL
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post #685 of 1634 Old 05-20-2009, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actarusfleed View Post

I've downloaded your last file.chc

I do not see any saturations reads ....

Can you post a complete file?

thank you so much,
acta.

That is because I did not take any saturation measurements. The file contains measurements for grayscale, contrast, gamma, and gamut.

The saturation matter really does not concern me. At this point it is what it is, and I don't have any issue with what I am seeing in my results and am quite happy with it. On the contrary, prior to the firmware update, it was a real mess and colors were destroyed at 100% vs 75% - so that was of great interest to me.

That being said, if someone wants to post an overview of what patterns exactly to use and what the process is for measuring this, I'll be happy to do so the next time I calibrate - which at this point I'm not planning to do anytime soon.
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post #686 of 1634 Old 05-20-2009, 07:46 AM
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mdrew - for your quick reference I checked my RGB gain/offsets last night. I am using:

Gain: R: 0, G: -6, B: -59
Offset: R: -2, G: -2, B: 0

Plus some fairly heavy WRGB tweaks in the custom gamma, mainly to get a flat 2.2 gamma curve but also to fine tune the grayscale nicely.

Of course it should be noted that these settings (unlike the CMS) typically will not transfer from unit to unit and will also vary quite a bit based on bulb age. However I mainly wanted to provide you with a frame of reference for my green gain settting. HTH.

BTW I read in a few posts from folks how the 6500 factory setting post firmware update was spot on. In my case it was off quite significantly (dE of 4-8 across the range) and looked rather yellow-greenish.
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post #687 of 1634 Old 05-20-2009, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave1216 View Post

. I have read the THX settings are the best without further calibrating. Well before I downloaded the new firmware the car was basically orange. After firmware upgrade, the car is...orange. The Natural mode seems best to me before getting all into the settings....and yes the car was red and looks pretty good. So how can THX be that bad? Thanks

On my projector I found that by increasing the color control I was able to get the Colors to measure better. Oh high lamp with the color set to 10+ and 65ook color temp all of my colors had dE 4 and under as measured with an i1pro. The grayscale well with some high numbers at 0 and 10IRE but mostly 1s,2s,and 3s. I started to just stop there. I have about 300 hours on the bulb. What I did was start with the color control at about 5+, temp 6500k, and high lamp,THX. Then I would increase the color control by one and measure the primaries and secondaries. What I saw was the the number got better until I reach 10. I was able to get my dE down to to R 0.7,G 2.3,B1.8, Y1.5,C1.4, and M 2.1 by doing a custom calibration. I am still learning this thing and do not even know how to post my file to AVS. To be honest, I do not see a lot of difference between the THX at color 10 and my custom settings. Looks like I failed to save some of my files and going to start over again today. Once you start to get the hang of it, things are not so difficult. How do you post the files from HCFR? Anyone? I am playing with gamma now and would like some of you who know more about this to look over my stuff.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #688 of 1634 Old 05-20-2009, 09:36 AM
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Well, Jeff Meier (UMR) was at my house last night doing his magic—and it was a most enjoyable and informative evening (from 5 pm to about 10). I had met Jeff last year when he was at my friend Les Alderson’s (Htwaits on the Forum) house calibrating his 60” Kuro plasma. At that time I had a RS1 but was anticipating the RS20, and was so impressed by Jeff that I decided I wanted him to do a calibration after I got one. And it was a pleasure also to have Les here last night to lend an extra pair of eyes and witness Jeff’s results. (FWIW, I might note that though Jeff can come across as rather ‘abrupt’ in his posts here on the Forum, in person he is extremely agreeable and gentle in dealing with persons much less knowledgeable that he is in the HT game.)

He first addressed grayscale. I have been doing this (about half a dozen times by now) with my I1/LT and HCFR, and gotten pretty comfortable with this methodology, though was under no illusion about it being highly accurate. Jeff very kindly noted that I had done ‘pretty good’ within the limits of these fairly elementary tools (and my inexperience!); in fact it measured (with his very precise tools) fairly reasonable down to ~20 IRE, but fell apart below that, color temp ballooning from ~6500K to ~9000K at 10 IRE, and gamma, which followed ~ 2.2 down to that point, also blew up (to over 2.4). Fairly quickly he was able to dial in grayscale to give R, G, B absolutely spot on down to 10 IRE; and one could really see the difference in grayscale patterns, i.e., that the color tinges in the low IRE grayscale were eliminated. He also gave me tips on how I can profitably use my I1/LT to measure the results of his grayscale settings, to generate approximate correction factors for the I1/LT, to use on my own to ‘dress up’ his values as the lamp changes with time, etc.

He then moved on to CMS; and here it was extremely fortunately that Jeff has a RS20 himself and is thus extremely familiar with it (though he has so much experience that he is familiar with many displays). Jeff’s methodology, as he has described here on the Forum, is to use his state-of-the-art instrumentation together with his very experienced eye to dial in color (as well as grayscale above). Jeff has his own software for grayscale and CMS, and it was amazing to see how rapidly he can generate measurements of these. (He trains his I1/Pro to his super accurate (and super expensive) spectrophotometer and then uses the former to run through the measurements. And though I’ve read about how slow the I1/Pro is, with his software it is incredibly fast.) He noted, as have others, that the THX Picture Mode is very close to Rec 709 once the grayscale has been set accurately (and Color and Tint also adjusted somewhat). In User 1 he then dialed in his own CMS, which is a slightly expanded gamut. His philosophy is to dial the CMS to intermediate color points, not the ‘corners’ of the CIE triangle; he has his own custom points that he has devised which sample typical scenes. This pushes the corners of the CIE triangle out slightly, but the result is an extremely rich, yet completely natural and pleasing color palate, esp for movies, as evidenced on a number of dvd and BD samplings.

So I am extremely pleased with the experience and the result. The grayscale is unbelievably precise, and I think Jeff’s benchmark (and tips) will make it easier for me to keep it close. The CMS he provided is a very rich and striking palate, with the (properly tweaked) THX mode providing Rec709 in case it is preferred for some material.

As an aside, he also measured the light output and CR of my pj (which took just a minute or two with his spectrophotometer), providing much more accurate values than I have been able to get with my CA813 light meter: on my 126” diag HP screen, the pj at min throw, Normal lamp mode, 780 hrs on the lamp, and in a pretty good room (no batcave, but no external light and black material on ceiling and side walls out ~8 ft from the screen wall), his values (after the full calibration) are 17.7 ftL, o/f CR = 29,000:1 with Iris = 0, and 15 ftL, o/f CR = 40,000:1 with Iris = -7, with ANSI CR ~ 250:1. I have the RS20 mounted on a stand, about dead center of the screen both horizontally and vertically (i.e., perfect for the HP screen), but he noted (as have others) that ANSI CR is considerably improved if one can mount the pj higher, say, and use lens shift. He said that in this config (and in his much more ideal room) he gets ANSI CR of ~ 450:1 with his pj.

PS. We also looked carefully for any banding, in some of Jeff’s test scenes that are extremely revealing in this regard, and there was absolutely NONE that one could discern.
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post #689 of 1634 Old 05-20-2009, 10:13 AM
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Sounds like a great experience Millerwill. Thanks for sharing it.

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post #690 of 1634 Old 05-20-2009, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

mdrew - for your quick reference I checked my RGB gain/offsets last night. I am using:

Gain: R: 0, G: -6, B: -59
Offset: R: -2, G: -2, B: 0

Plus some fairly heavy WRGB tweaks in the custom gamma, mainly to get a flat 2.2 gamma curve but also to fine tune the grayscale nicely.

Of course it should be noted that these settings (unlike the CMS) typically will not transfer from unit to unit and will also vary quite a bit based on bulb age. However I mainly wanted to provide you with a frame of reference for my green gain settting. HTH.

BTW I read in a few posts from folks how the 6500 factory setting post firmware update was spot on. In my case it was off quite significantly (dE of 4-8 across the range) and looked rather yellow-greenish.

Thanks!

Last night I plugged your CMS numbers in and used my color and gamma presets and all my other settings as well and called that User 1. I was then able to simply hit User 1, User 2 and User 3 to compare your CMS settings against mine and THX.

I'm certain that there's something in my chain of equipment that's doing something to the data before it reaches the RS20. Both THX and your settings look dull and lifeless compared to mine. The colors on all three settings appear to be realistic and natural, but THX and yours just don't jump out at me like my settings do. It's difficult for me to put into words what I'm seeing. It's like being in the desert at noon on a hot day, looking around at the drab colors, then pop on a pair of Oakley polarizing sunglasses and the colors all come to life. That's what I'm seeing. That's not to say things look over saturated or too colorful either. I put in what I believe to be one of the most colorful disks I have, The Tudors - Season 1 on Blue Ray. While this may not be the greatest series out there, it's a great disk for testing and showing off color separation as there's green everywhere and all the costumes are very colorful. With THX and your settings, the colors just look washed out and pail. With mine, it's eye candy to me.

So, all that aside, I need to find out why I need so much Hue. Something is wrong and it will drive me nuts not knowing what it is.. I have roughly 300 hours on my bulb, I have a bat cave, and I use the Firehawk. If anything, your settings should be darn close to what I need as we have simular set ups.

It's a beautiful day out and the forecast is calling for several more. I just can't stand to be inside on days like this. When the weather turns poorly, I'll dig into this some more.
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