Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread (NEW FIRMWARE V1.1) - Page 25 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #721 of 1635 Old 05-22-2009, 01:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
TomHuffman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Springfield, MO
Posts: 6,706
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 232 Post(s)
Liked: 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

Aren't screens measured and their color shift characteristics quantified? Does HCFR provide offsets for various screens? I could understand if you are in a room where the light reflecting off the walls or other things in the room affect the color balance, but if you are in a room completely covered in black velvet and your screen had no color shift, would you be better measuring with the diffuser close to the pj?

I guess my question is whether the diffuser alters the color balance of the light and should therefore not be used or whether the reason is that the light coming off the screen will be different than the light coming out of the pj.

It is all of these issues.

IF the screen were perfectly neutral, and IF there were no meaningful room interactions, and IF the diffuser were itself perfectly neutral, then I can think of no reason to not take readings from the lens.

However, ensuring all three of those conditions is no trivial task. Taking the reading from the screen eliminates these variables, which is what I imagine is the basis of the SMPTE standard.

FWIW, the D2 may struggle at 10% stim, but I have found that the Chroma 5 does fine at that level.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
Springfield, MO

TomHuffman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #722 of 1635 Old 05-22-2009, 02:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Lawguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,709
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I can't see what the reasoning is for taking readings right from the lens given the effects of the screen and room. I have found that it is much easier to get readings directly from the lens but that is NOT a reason to do it that way, IMO. We see color off the screen, not directly from the lens.

What is the counter argument?

Affable Nitwit
Lawguy is offline  
post #723 of 1635 Old 05-22-2009, 02:40 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
millerwill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 11,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I can't see what the reasoning is for taking readings right from the lens given the effects of the screen and room. I have found that it is much easier to get readings directly from the lens but that is NOT a reason to do it that way, IMO. We see color off the screen, not directly from the lens.

What is the counter argument?

I certainly do find it much easier to take the measurement from the pj; because of the diffuser, I presume, there is essentially no issue of precisely how it is oriented, etc; I can get quite reproducible results. (It's probably just my inexperience that prevents me from getting consistent results from the screen from one calibration session to another.)

In my case, I'm pretty sure the room causes no issues, so it is a question of how much of a perturbation the screen causes, and I certainly don't know.
millerwill is offline  
post #724 of 1635 Old 05-22-2009, 04:04 PM
Advanced Member
 
dave1216's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Highlands Ranch, Colorado
Posts: 540
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by frank bavaro View Post

RS20 newbie - installed last nite as of 1130 pm -

simply blown away by perfomance right out of the box in THX mode - i watched LAKERS game and then some scenes - TRANSFORMERS on blu ray -

i am interested ,of course, in getting the most out of the PJ -but very confused after reading (there is sooooooo much info ) about calibrating -

can anyone point to me to , or demonstrate how to , set better performance using the user menus ? i am a calibration newbie - i would just mechanically set levels as instructed -

Frank...do you basic colors seem accurate in THX mode? My reds are orange. I am still trying to understand if it is normal that the color accuracy is so bad in THX mode without calibration whereas Natural mode for me seems pretty good. Would anyone else say I have a problem with my PJ?
dave1216 is offline  
post #725 of 1635 Old 05-22-2009, 04:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Lawguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,709
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 11
For those who are keeping track, here are my latest CMS settings. I have verified them on two seperate occasions now so I feel confident that they are good. The main difference of these over my previous calibration (to me) is that blue is noticably brighter.

R: 11, -26, 5
Y:-7, -51, 35
G: 1, -48, 14
C: 34, -53, 28
B: 52, 46, -23
M: 11, -15, 5

I am zooming the image to be as small as possible. This has made readings from my i1Pro much more stable. I am measuring only small differences between 75% and 100% stim. I really feel that any further calibration work will not produce any productive improvement.

My i1Pro has gone on my shelf and there it will stay. I have promised to help new RS20 owner Frank Bavaro calibrate (welcome aboard, Frank). I am interested to see whether his settings will be very different from mine.

Affable Nitwit
Lawguy is offline  
post #726 of 1635 Old 05-22-2009, 07:05 PM
umr
AVS Club Gold
 
umr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 10,169
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

I've compared my HP with black-out cloth and Stewart 130, with a lowly D2 meter the color shift between the BO measure a dE of about 2, the HP being slightly more red overall, the Stewart had similar error but I don't have the specifics at hand. There was a thread in the screen section where someone measured in a very detailed manner many different screens and each is different. I'm a little surprised to what I'm reading here, UMR preaches about the necessity of the level of precision found only in his uber expensive meter for calibrations but then, somewhat contrary to his preachings, doesn't measure off the screen and doesn't calibrate color gamut to any standard. His practice potentially has introduced more error than any purported benefits of using the "reference" gear he often preaches is necessary to get it right.


I measure off of screens and calibrate to standards. What I told Bill is you may be better off measuring off the projector than from the screen. He then verified this in his own case.
umr is offline  
post #727 of 1635 Old 05-22-2009, 07:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
gregr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I can't see what the reasoning is for taking readings right from the lens given the effects of the screen and room. I have found that it is much easier to get readings directly from the lens but that is NOT a reason to do it that way, IMO. We see color off the screen, not directly from the lens.

What is the counter argument?

It depends on what measurement you are trying to make. Instrumentation errors from low light levels off the screen can be large when measuring grayscale tracking in the critical below 20% luma levels region for instance. So it's often better to measure grayscale tracking from the projector lens. The reference white point (or 75% equivalent) should be measured off the screen at your normal viewing angle (but which seat in the theater?) if you are concerned about absolute accuracy (which is much less important than an equivalent grayscale tracking error), but with a good screen the visual differences are mostly negligible. Projector full-field and checkerboard contrast measurements should be made at the lens. It's an exercise in futility (impractical at least) to accurately measure the projector's m-ANSI, ANSI, etc (checkerboard-based) contrast off the screen, and full-field black levels are too low to accurately measure off the screen. CMS adjustments should ideally be done off the screen, but some instrument errors (particularly when measuring blue) can be larger than any spectral response changes from the screen, or be maddeningly slow when adjusting a CMS. In some cases you can "calibrate" a less accurate but more sensitive (and perhaps faster) color analyzer(1) to make accurate readings by using a more accurate but less sensitive (and perhaps slower) color analyzer(2), if color analyzer(1) is linear and you really know what you are doing (for instance the calibration must be done with the projector being measured, not just any projector).

On a personal note: I've gotten an unusual number of requests recently from people on the forum asking me to calibrate their RS20. I'm sure this is because of the CMS. I am not in the projector calibration business. Maybe someday when I actually retire from being "retired" I will wander around the country dropping into people's home theaters offering to calibrate their projector for a cold beer. A lot of people participating in this thread are doing their own calibrations, which is great, but obviously others are reading the thread to find out what is involved and want to hire a calibrator. The only recommendation I would make (whether you do your own calibration or hire someone) is to be sure that you get both a SMPTE C and Rec.709 color gamut calibration. Other than that, if you hire someone pick a person with an AccuPel generator, since they are clearly the smartest calibrators out there.

Greg Rogers
Video Engineer/Product Designer

gregr is offline  
post #728 of 1635 Old 05-22-2009, 10:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovingdvd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,685
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 720 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I can't see what the reasoning is for taking readings right from the lens given the effects of the screen and room. I have found that it is much easier to get readings directly from the lens but that is NOT a reason to do it that way, IMO. We see color off the screen, not directly from the lens.

What is the counter argument?

millerwill and all - I find it MUCH more accurate for my purposes to read directly out of the pj lens. However, I do this with a Spyder 2 meter that is trained to an EyeOne, that took its reference measures directly off the screen.

IMO this gives the best of both worlds (for us laymen calibrators with lower end tools). The EyeOne Pro is widely considered more accurate than the Spyder, yet it cannot take measurements directly from the pj lens. So I take measures with the EyeOne off the screen, which also compensates for any color shift from the screen (firehawk). Then I take measures out of the lens from about 20" away with the Spyder 2, and train it to the EyeOne.

So this gives me the advantages of the EyeOne's better accuracy, combined with its benefit of reading from the screen, combined with the Spyder 2's accuracy in reading at lower lights and better readings directly out of the pj. I've had consistent, accurate results with this technique for years. And as an added bonus with this approach you can read accurately down to 5% no problem.

I keep reading over and over posts from DIY folks over the years and lots over the past few months in this thread asking about what meters to use and what techniques, and am always baffled that more folks don't try this. It is a winning combination for sure.
lovingdvd is online now  
post #729 of 1635 Old 05-22-2009, 10:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovingdvd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,685
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 720 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignace View Post

I'm running somewhere at mid throw, the front of the projector is twice as far from the screen as the width of the screen is.

Do you know if lens shift has a huge effect on contrast ratio?

I will have a look at your post about how you measure the contrast...

Thanks,
Ignace.

Not sure about the shift. I use a fair amount of vertical shift as my pj is ceiling mounted and the lens lines up with about the top of the screen. You can always play with the shift and take measures that way.

From mid throw with iris 0 and normal lamp I'd anticipate you would be in the 30,000 - 35,000:1 range. And about 42,000 - 45,000:1 with high lamp and iris -15.

There is a fair amount of unit to unit variability (chip, lamp etc). You may want to get a CA813 and see how those readings come out if you are concerned about it. I probably wouldn't worry too much about it because its unlikely you'd notice a difference between this range and what you are measuring.

Also make sure that your black level and contrast is set correctly and that in the process of calibrating to D65 you haven't lowered the gains too much (green in particular) - as that would certainly compress your range and show up in those numbers. I recall that your offsets are all negative so that is good as positive numbers in there will destroy your CR (which you don't have).
lovingdvd is online now  
post #730 of 1635 Old 05-23-2009, 02:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Highlander_AVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Italy
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

It is all of these issues.

IF the screen were perfectly neutral, and IF there were no meaningful room interactions, and IF the diffuser were itself perfectly neutral, then I can think of no reason to not take readings from the lens.

However, ensuring all three of those conditions is no trivial task. Taking the reading from the screen eliminates these variables, which is what I imagine is the basis of the SMPTE standard.

FWIW, the D2 may struggle at 10% stim, but I have found that the Chroma 5 does fine at that level.

Yes Tom, anyway ... too much IF ... for my mind ..

@gregr
Completely agree
Highlander_AVS is offline  
post #731 of 1635 Old 05-24-2009, 11:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Lawguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,709
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Today I took my daughter to see Night at the Musuem. It was presented on film and the print is only a couple of days old, so it was in good condition. I watched that film as I would if I was critically watching my RS20. I was paying particular attention to motion.

It was kind of a revelation. I was surprised at how BAD, I mean really BAD the motion scenes were. Motion scenes were filled with lots of blur, judder and loss of resolution. Some of what I saw were things (such as a kind of double edge artifacting during motion), that if they were on my RS20, I would have assumed to be sample and hold artifacts. But, as this was film, they were clearly not that. There is no mistaking the pops and clicks that even a pretty new print can have.

I am now starting to find myself in the camp believing that whatever motion problems the RS20 may itself introduce (whatever they may be because I no longer know), they are small as compared with defects in source material itself. I am surprised to think this because I was pretty sure that I had isolated SAH artifacts and what they looked like. But, there they were on film. I don't really know what to make of this.

Affable Nitwit
Lawguy is offline  
post #732 of 1635 Old 05-24-2009, 02:19 PM
Member
 
Ignace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Not sure about the shift. I use a fair amount of vertical shift as my pj is ceiling mounted and the lens lines up with about the top of the screen. You can always play with the shift and take measures that way.

From mid throw with iris 0 and normal lamp I'd anticipate you would be in the 30,000 - 35,000:1 range. And about 42,000 - 45,000:1 with high lamp and iris -15.

There is a fair amount of unit to unit variability (chip, lamp etc). You may want to get a CA813 and see how those readings come out if you are concerned about it. I probably wouldn't worry too much about it because its unlikely you'd notice a difference between this range and what you are measuring.

Also make sure that your black level and contrast is set correctly and that in the process of calibrating to D65 you haven't lowered the gains too much (green in particular) - as that would certainly compress your range and show up in those numbers. I recall that your offsets are all negative so that is good as positive numbers in there will destroy your CR (which you don't have).

Yes, brightness and contrast are set correctly; white does not get brighter when increasing contrast, black does not get darker when I decrease the brightness.

Yes, I know that a contrast of 26000 will probably be as good as one of 42000; our eyes will only notice a drop to 50 % when we drop the light to only 18%, here we are speaking of dropping the light (black) to 50 %, so for our eyes the difference would be small in black level. On the other hand, nobody can argue about the fact, eventhough the black level of the RS20 is very good, that we can still see the black level after 2 hours of watching "Batman The Dark Knight", for example. So black can never be too black .

However, if the manyfacturer promisses a contrast ratio of 50000 at display white (all gains at 0) for the RS20, I'm not expecting "only" the "performance" of its predecessor (being 30000) . What will happen if the projector ages, maybe some contrast will be lost again?

Anyway, I don't want to buy a CA813, I can use a Minolta CS-200 from my work. I hope that this 15000$ equipement can measure properly the contrast ratio of the RS20 ? I'll let you know the numbers...

Thanks lovingdvd,
Ignace.
Ignace is offline  
post #733 of 1635 Old 05-24-2009, 02:27 PM
 
ChrisWiggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 20,730
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Today I took my daughter to see Night at the Musuem. It was presented on film and the print is only a couple of days old, so it was in good condition. I watched that film as I would if I was critically watching my RS20. I was paying particular attention to motion.

It was kind of a revelation. I was surprised at how BAD, I mean really BAD the motion scenes were. Motion scenes were filled with lots of blur, judder and loss of resolution. Some of what I saw were things (such as a kind of double edge artifacting during motion), that if they were on my RS20, I would have assumed to be sample and hold artifacts. But, as this was film, they were clearly not that. There is no mistaking the pops and clicks that even a pretty new print can have.

Indeed, this is a problem. Film will always have blur on motion shots, that's the nature of things, and tons of judder at 24p if things are panning fast enough. You have to be very careful to link particular artifacts to a display-specific issue.

Quote:


I am now starting to find myself in the camp believing that whatever motion problems the RS20 may itself introduce (whatever they may be because I no longer know), they are small as compared with defects in source material itself. I am surprised to think this because I was pretty sure that I had isolated SAH artifacts and what they looked like. But, there they were on film. I don't really know what to make of this.

That doesn't mean that there aren't some additional issues that occur with a sample-and-hold display. Comparing a CRT for instance to an LCOS or DLP machine you will see the difference and the added issues that sample-and-hold bring out.

But one has to be very careful in placing blame for what you're seeing. Most all of the blur for instance, is in the content, in my experience.
ChrisWiggles is offline  
post #734 of 1635 Old 05-24-2009, 03:22 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Mike_WI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 2,523
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Originally Posted by Mike_WI
craigr calibrated on 5/16 with a Lumagen RadianceXE he installed.
He also tweaked my ISCOIIIL a little.

He is backlogged on emails and jobs so I was waiting for his PDFs of the before after calibration curves.
See my signature link for dE pre/post numbers (in the last several posts).

Craigr may or may not give some comments on the RadianceXE vs. CMS v1.1 alone.

Bottom line (for me):
- JVC RS20 out of box (no calibration) on THX - great picture
- JVC RS20 v1.1 CMS with calibration - amazing
- JVC RS20 with RadianceXE - again, amazing -- some slight improvements over v1.1 CMS

Is a calibration worth it?
I think everyone on AVS would say yes.
Is a RadianceXE worth it over a CMS v1.1 with calibration?
Maybe.

There is an improvement but you are at diminishing returns and it will likely vary for people.
It isn't the highest value (like a pro calibration).
There are non-CMS related benefits and a bunch of cool things with the RadianceXE that I have only skimmed the surface of understanding.

Like I said, craigr was going to be very busy with more calibrations after he did mine, so I don't think he has stuck his head up into the forum to potentially comment.



Mike
kutlow -

I posted some pics in my HT thread (in signature) here -- LINK.
I should really post in calibration thread, so I won't say more...

Mike
------------------------------------------------------------
(above is from a reply by me to kutlow on main thread).
I have some pre-/post calibration charts on that link (my AVS HT thread) if anyone is interested.
I realize it wasn't a self-calibration and using an external VP, so it may be of less interest.
Unfortunately, I don't have any FW v1.1 CMS vs. RadianceXE comparisons to quantify any differences.
I don't think craigr saved any either, but some of my comments are above.

Mike

Before Calibration:
(rounded to 1 decimal point)

IRE - dE
10 - 15.8
20 - 15.9
30 - 17.2
40 - 16.0
50 - 16.7
60 - 14.2
70 - 15.2
80 - 12.6
90 - 13.1
100 - 11.5



After Calibration:
IRE - dE
10 - 0.4
20 - 1.1
30 - 1.2
40 - 0.5
50 - 0.2
60 - 0.2
70 - 0.6
80 - 0.1
90 - 0.2
100 - 0.5

PRE Calibration
80% - JVC RS20 FW v1.1 - THX Setting




POST Calibration
80% - JVC RS20 FW v1.1 - Lumagen RadianceXE

 

Mike - Detailed Calibration Summary.pdf 24.8564453125k . file

 

Mike - Detailed Display Device Analysis.pdf 23.8408203125k . file
Mike_WI is offline  
post #735 of 1635 Old 05-24-2009, 04:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
John Ballentine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Los Angeles, Ca.
Posts: 5,085
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Today I took my daughter to see Night at the Musuem. It was presented on film and the print is only a couple of days old, so it was in good condition. I watched that film as I would if I was critically watching my RS20. I was paying particular attention to motion.

It was kind of a revelation. I was surprised at how BAD, I mean really BAD the motion scenes were. Motion scenes were filled with lots of blur, judder and loss of resolution. Some of what I saw were things (such as a kind of double edge artifacting during motion), that if they were on my RS20, I would have assumed to be sample and hold artifacts. But, as this was film, they were clearly not that. There is no mistaking the pops and clicks that even a pretty new print can have.

I am now starting to find myself in the camp believing that whatever motion problems the RS20 may itself introduce (whatever they may be because I no longer know), they are small as compared with defects in source material itself. I am surprised to think this because I was pretty sure that I had isolated SAH artifacts and what they looked like. But, there they were on film. I don't really know what to make of this.

Excellent post

Also - just loaded new firmware. I'ts AMAZING how much better the remote control response is - superior now to my previous RS1
John Ballentine is offline  
post #736 of 1635 Old 05-24-2009, 04:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
TomHuffman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Springfield, MO
Posts: 6,706
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 232 Post(s)
Liked: 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignace View Post

Anyway, I don't want to buy a CA813, I can use a Minolta CS-200 from my work. I hope that this 15000$ equipement can measure properly the contrast ratio of the RS20

The CS-200 only measures luminance off the screen. It's lower limit is 0.003 fL. Under normal conditions I would expect the off-the-screen luminance of a RS20 to be less than 1/10 of that. You will have to move the PJ close to the screen to get any reading at all.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
Springfield, MO

TomHuffman is offline  
post #737 of 1635 Old 05-24-2009, 05:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Lawguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,709
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

That doesn't mean that there aren't some additional issues that occur with a sample-and-hold display. Comparing a CRT for instance to an LCOS or DLP machine you will see the difference and the added issues that sample-and-hold bring out.

No doubt true. I had just mistakenly thought I had identified what SAH problems look like. Now I just don't know anymore.

Affable Nitwit
Lawguy is offline  
post #738 of 1635 Old 05-24-2009, 05:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bulldogger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Clinton,MS
Posts: 6,758
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

Excellent post

Also - just loaded new firmware. I'ts AMAZING how much better the remote control response is - superior now to my previous RS1

Just wait to you have the CMS dialed in. I am really impressed with my colors now. I would say that I am 100% satisfied with this projector now. I was watching a movie today and there was a 70's Chevy Malibu in one scene. I had forgotten about the car that my family had when I was a child that was the exact same sort of beige color. The color looked so accurate that it really brought me back. The colors seem vibrant when they should be and sedated when they should be. JVC has hit a home run,finally, after a few base hits, and some strikes with this one.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
Bulldogger is offline  
post #739 of 1635 Old 05-24-2009, 09:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
gregr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

It was kind of a revelation. I was surprised at how BAD, I mean really BAD the motion scenes were. Motion scenes were filled with lots of blur, judder and loss of resolution. Some of what I saw were things (such as a kind of double edge artifacting during motion), that if they were on my RS20, I would have assumed to be sample and hold artifacts. But, as this was film, they were clearly not that. There is no mistaking the pops and clicks that even a pretty new print can have.

I am now starting to find myself in the camp believing that whatever motion problems the RS20 may itself introduce (whatever they may be because I no longer know), they are small as compared with defects in source material itself. I am surprised to think this because I was pretty sure that I had isolated SAH artifacts and what they looked like. But, there they were on film. I don't really know what to make of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Indeed, this is a problem. Film will always have blur on motion shots, that's the nature of things, and tons of judder at 24p if things are panning fast enough. You have to be very careful to link particular artifacts to a display-specific issue.

Exactly. Eliminate all of the 24p film camera blurring, judder, and aliasing, eliminate the blurring/loss of resolution/artifacts from video compression, eliminate the 3-2 pulldown judder if you don't use 24p with film sources, eliminate the poor 480i film mode deinterlacing so common in recent video processing chips, eliminate the motion-adaptive deinterlacing blur and resolution-pumping on video sources, eliminate noise reduction, sharpness and detail enhancement processing, and eventually you may see something you think is a S&H effect. But it probably isn't.

And I didn't even mention what some external video processors do with scaling and motion.

Greg Rogers
Video Engineer/Product Designer

gregr is offline  
post #740 of 1635 Old 05-24-2009, 11:18 PM
Member
 
Ignace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

The CS-200 only measures luminance off the screen. It's lower limit is 0.003 fL. Under normal conditions I would expect the off-the-screen luminance of a RS20 to be less than 1/10 of that. You will have to move the PJ close to the screen to get any reading at all.

I'll use a transparent light diffuser close to the lens and measure the light coming through with the CS-200 on a tripod. As such I can "boost" the light dramatically I've seen.

Thanks,
Ignace.
Ignace is offline  
post #741 of 1635 Old 05-25-2009, 03:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Lawguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,709
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

Exactly. Eliminate all of the 24p film camera blurring, judder, and aliasing, eliminate the blurring/loss of resolution/artifacts from video compression, eliminate the 3-2 pulldown judder if you don't use 24p with film sources, eliminate the poor 480i film mode deinterlacing so common in recent video processing chips, eliminate the motion-adaptive deinterlacing blur and resolution-pumping on video sources, eliminate noise reduction, sharpness and detail enhancement processing, and eventually you may see something you think is a S&H effect. But it probably isn't.

And I didn't even mention what some external video processors do with scaling and motion.

Thanks for the confirmation, Graig.

The moral of the story for me is to tune this stuff out and stop looking for things to complain about.

Affable Nitwit
Lawguy is offline  
post #742 of 1635 Old 05-25-2009, 03:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Lawguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,709
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Just wait to you have the CMS dialed in. I am really impressed with my colors now. I would say that I am 100% satisfied with this projector now. I was watching a movie today and there was a 70's Chevy Malibu in one scene. I had forgotten about the car that my family had when I was a child that was the exact same sort of beige color. The color looks so accurate that it really brought me back. The colors seem vibrant when they should be and sedated when they should be. JVC had hit a home run,finally, after a few base hits, and some strikes with this one.

I agree 100%. I honestly had no idea that accurate colors could look so good. I think that most people that think this way have probably never actually seen them.

If you are not calibrating this projector, you are not taking full advantage of it.

Affable Nitwit
Lawguy is offline  
post #743 of 1635 Old 05-25-2009, 06:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
John Ballentine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Los Angeles, Ca.
Posts: 5,085
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Just wait to you have the CMS dialed in. I am really impressed with my colors now. I would say that I am 100% satisfied with this projector now. I was watching a movie today and there was a 70's Chevy Malibu in one scene. I had forgotten about the car that my family had when I was a child that was the exact same sort of beige color. The color looked so accurate that it really brought me back. The colors seem vibrant when they should be and sedated when they should be. JVC has hit a home run,finally, after a few base hits, and some strikes with this one.

I now need to have a professional calibrator come to my home (as I have no equipment). I did plug in Ric's CMS numbers - and the image looks great - but I know every machine is different and requires a unique calibration to look its best. I'm sure my greyscale could use touching up too.

I'm only 99% happy w/ my RS20 (400 hours) - every once in a great while I have a need for NR on a problematic title. Would be nice if the Reon's control was not grayed out in 1080p24 mode. (however I guess I could purchase a BD player that offers this feature)
John Ballentine is offline  
post #744 of 1635 Old 05-25-2009, 08:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Lawguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,709
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

I'm only 99% happy w/ my RS20 (400 hours) - every once in a great while I have a need for NR on a problematic title. Would be nice if the Reon's control was not grayed out in 1080p24 mode. (however I guess I could purchase a BD player that offers this feature)

The Reon in the RS20 does not support NR on HD sources. This stinks but at least my player has a NR feature for the few titles that benefit from it.

Affable Nitwit
Lawguy is offline  
post #745 of 1635 Old 05-25-2009, 08:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Highlander_AVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Italy
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I agree 100%. I honestly had no idea that accurate colors could look so good. I think that most people that think this way have probably never actually seen them.

If you are not calibrating this projector, you are not taking full advantage of it.

Completely agree
Wish to add, It's a NO Turn Back Point !!!
From here, cannot look anymore at normlized grayscale only but Oversatured pictures !!
Grass, now it's real ! and all seems a window open over the real world, over the real colors

P.S. Take a look at Prince Caspian
Highlander_AVS is offline  
post #746 of 1635 Old 05-25-2009, 09:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
TomHuffman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Springfield, MO
Posts: 6,706
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 232 Post(s)
Liked: 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignace View Post

I'll use a transparent light diffuser close to the lens and measure the light coming through with the CS-200 on a tripod. As such I can "boost" the light dramatically I've seen.

Now that's a new one. I have never heard of anyone putting a diffuser on the PJ. That's original.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
Springfield, MO

TomHuffman is offline  
post #747 of 1635 Old 05-25-2009, 10:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bulldogger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Clinton,MS
Posts: 6,758
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

The Reon in the RS20 does not support NR on HD sources. This stinks but at least my player has a NR feature for the few titles that benefit from it.

What player are you using?

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
Bulldogger is offline  
post #748 of 1635 Old 05-25-2009, 11:00 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Mark Petersen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Today I took my daughter to see Night at the Musuem. It was presented on film and the print is only a couple of days old, so it was in good condition. I watched that film as I would if I was critically watching my RS20. I was paying particular attention to motion.

It was kind of a revelation. I was surprised at how BAD, I mean really BAD the motion scenes were. Motion scenes were filled with lots of blur, judder and loss of resolution. Some of what I saw were things (such as a kind of double edge artifacting during motion), that if they were on my RS20, I would have assumed to be sample and hold artifacts. But, as this was film, they were clearly not that. There is no mistaking the pops and clicks that even a pretty new print can have.

I am now starting to find myself in the camp believing that whatever motion problems the RS20 may itself introduce (whatever they may be because I no longer know), they are small as compared with defects in source material itself. I am surprised to think this because I was pretty sure that I had isolated SAH artifacts and what they looked like. But, there they were on film. I don't really know what to make of this.

I took my son to see Terminator Salvation yesterday on 35mm and noticed much the same thing. During some scenes the film also had a terrible side to side shake to it. It was much worse than the bass induced lens shake problem on the RS1. As far as artifacts go, don't forget about cigarette burns when it's time to change a reel as these are about as noticeable as an artifact can get, and then there's also frame bounce, etc.

Generally I'm a film buff though and I enjoy watching film presentations as much as digital. I recently purchased a mint Bell and Howell 16mm projector in fact so that I could play old film clips and newsreels for my guests before watching a blu-ray. My appreciation for film is mostly due to nostaliga rather than an endorsement of film over digital though.
Mark Petersen is offline  
post #749 of 1635 Old 05-25-2009, 11:45 PM
Member
 
Ignace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Now that's a new one. I have never heard of anyone putting a diffuser on the PJ. That's original.

Maybe it's because I'm working as an engineer, I try to find solutions all the time ...

Since the LS-100 can not measure lower then 0.001 fL (and is less accurate in this range), I searched a method to "brighten up" the black of the RS20. Putting the projector close to the screen was difficult to get a bright reading of the black level (to be honest I tried first with a white sheet of paper), then I though about using a diffuser and measure the light with the LS-100 on the other side. Since I measure on the other side, I can put the diffuser as closed as I want to the lens; this to get an optimal reading on the equipment.

This should be accurate, right ?

This week, I'll hope to do the same with a CS-200, to be sure about the measured contrast...

Ignace.
Ignace is offline  
post #750 of 1635 Old 05-26-2009, 02:11 AM
Senior Member
 
CraigN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 278
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
A question for Tom Huffman or any other knowledgeable folk -

I am very new to calibration having recently bought an i1Pro and Calman from curtpalme.com to work on my JVC RS20.
Tom's meter comparison tables in the display calibration section show results from 30%-100% IRE but not 10 & 20%.
He stated earlier in that thread not to bother with the lower readings. While looking through other threads, I have read that it is important to get accurate readings in the low range for an accurate greyscale calibration.
I have been getting quite stable results at 30% - below this I have been trying for readings and (using the low light trigger settings in Calman and waiting much longer between readings) have obtained some reasonably consistent readings but not to the same level of consistency as from 30-100%.

So, do I just forget about 10 and 20% and concentrate on achieving the flattest results in the rest of the range.

Are the readings at 10& 20% irrelevant to accuracy and ultimately viewing enjoyment?
CraigN is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off