Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread (NEW FIRMWARE V1.1) - Page 27 - AVS Forum
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post #781 of 1634 Old 05-28-2009, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

By "anything" I meant the contouring that the image was meant to show. I don't see any.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

I wonder how much of the contouring/banding is due to having brightness/contrast set incorrectly. The 9G Kuro I've got had horrible banding until I adjusted brightness/contrast, at which point it went away. I hadn't seen anything like that before and haven't changed my settings on the RS20 to see if I could recreate it, but may try when I get back in town.

Look carefully in the greenish background and in the 2 pink blurry areas in the background, I saw more contouring using the CMS compared to THX. I must stress that we are speaking of little contouring, so you have to look carefully! But you can see that the colors are a bit more "jumping around" in smooth transitions.

OK, I did only try it on my CMS settings calibrated using a CS-200. I have also to note that my first rough calibration did show the same little contouring. Maybe I should try some CMS settings posted here... It could be that it is the combination picture/CMS settings that does it?
I watched about 50 of my own pictures carefully, and noted about 3 pictures showing some very very very little contouring in THX mode, then I examined the same ones with the CMS and saw it was worse using the CMS (my settings).

About the brightness/contrast, yes this could also have an impact, but why I saw much less contouring in THX compared to CMS (same brightness/contrast)? Also when viewing a grayscale I don't have any contouring, well, I can see all the 256 steps going up monotonically. So I would think that it is not a brightness/contrast issue and only an issue related to color remapping?

I tested this image using a PC driving DVI (1920x1080p) into the HDMI input, HDMI set to enhanced RGB on the JVC, brightness and contrast set to 0. By the way, does enhanced RGB in HDMI on the JVC expect 0..246 or 0..255 of input range?

I'm wondering what others do see on this image ???

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...0&d=1243459656

Ignace.
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post #782 of 1634 Old 05-29-2009, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignace View Post

OK, I did only try it on my CMS settings calibrated using a CS-200. I have also to note that my first rough calibration did show the same little contouring. Maybe I should try some CMS settings posted here... It could be that it is the combination picture/CMS settings that does it?

Haven't checked your image, but I abandoned my first calibration result after I saw contouring. My current, more conservative settings (less hue manipulation) don't have this problem.
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post #783 of 1634 Old 05-29-2009, 04:56 AM
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I walked right up to the screen, remote in hand, and looked for banding.

I didn't see any but, I agree with a previous poster that perhaps you should check brightness/contrast settings. I could also see how gamma might come into play as well.

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post #784 of 1634 Old 05-29-2009, 05:34 AM
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I calibrated my new review unit last night. Everything else but green is spot on Rec.709. I actually ran out of HSB adjustments with green. IIRC, Hue is at -60, Saturation at -58 and Brightness somewhere around +20, and green is still slightly skewed towards cyan. I also tried positive Hue values in combination with various S & B values, but green stays skewed towards cyan. Other colors have a deltaE in the 0,x range, while green has a deltaE of ~5.

Montage on the Spears & Munsil BD looked absolutely fantastic, I have to say.

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post #785 of 1634 Old 05-29-2009, 06:43 AM
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mark , thx soooooooo much for your reply .....

"""Frank. You must be joking. Most of the stuff discussed in this thread is hobbyist level test equipment though some of it can be calibrated to better stuff and do a very decent job.


The stuff you quoted is mostly professional level equipment. Almost each piece being more expensive than the entire test equipment the hobbyists are using here. Its all fine expensive test equipment.""

i now , have my answer

and no ,

i was NOT kidding - as i stated in my post - i am in the process of reading and learning as much as i can , as quickly as i can -

have you never heard the statement " the only stupid question , is the one NOT asked" ?
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post #786 of 1634 Old 05-29-2009, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

I calibrated my new review unit last night. Everything else but green is spot on Rec.709. I actually ran out of HSB adjustments with green. IIRC, Hue is at -60, Saturation at -58 and Brightness somewhere around +20, and green is still slightly skewed towards cyan. I also tried positive Hue values in combination with various S & B values, but green stays skewed towards cyan. Other colors have a deltaE in the 0,x range, while green has a deltaE of ~5.

Montage on the Spears & Munsil BD looked absolutely fantastic, I have to say.

Very interesting you are having this issue with green. Could it be a measurement issue? I was able to get green spot on (0.8 dE) with hue at 0, saturation at -44 and brightness at 33.

As an experiment perhaps try seeing how things look with my final CMS settings. Full details here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=662 .
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post #787 of 1634 Old 05-29-2009, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Very interesting you are having this issue with green. Could it be a measurement issue? I was able to get green spot on (0.8 dE) with hue at 0, saturation at -44 and brightness at 33.

If I leave hue at 0, drop saturation and raise brightness, green drops way down along the triangle towards cyan. I had to apply a lot of negative hue to bring green back up the triangle towards standard green. No, I don't think it was a measurement issue. I'm using Chroma-5 in a pitch black room with CalMan Pro, and always set the proper probe distance with CalMan's saturation test. I get excellent repeatibility, so it's not like I'm getting random data out of the set-up

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As an experiment perhaps try seeing how things look with my final CMS settings. Full details here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=662 .

Thanks, but I don't think it'll help. I've measured enough projectors to know that each unit is unique and copying settings from one unit to another is pretty much a waste of time.

Please, feel free to call me by my first name, Petri.
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post #788 of 1634 Old 05-30-2009, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

If I leave hue at 0, drop saturation and raise brightness, green drops way down along the triangle towards cyan. I had to apply a lot of negative hue to bring green back up the triangle towards standard green. No, I don't think it was a measurement issue. I'm using Chroma-5 in a pitch black room with CalMan Pro, and always set the proper probe distance with CalMan's saturation test. I get excellent repeatibility, so it's not like I'm getting random data out of the set-up


Thanks, but I don't think it'll help. I've measured enough projectors to know that each unit is unique and copying settings from one unit to another is pretty much a waste of time.

I have to say that I have not found that to be the case. And I have been following this thread and tried many settings with only a small percentage that are significantly out of line. In your case, what such a test would prove is-- is Green in trouble on your projector or your calibration setup? If settings from others are anywhere near usable and green is within range you will have your answer, and in a very short time.

KT
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post #789 of 1634 Old 05-30-2009, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTTV Images View Post

I have to say that I have not found that to be the case.

Well, I have. Are you talking about RS20 only, or have you been testing various models from various manufacturers? Granted, there's less variation between projectors by some manufacturers than others, but I've yet to discover two units (of the same model, naturally) where you can copy settings from calibrated one to the other and get acceptable results.

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And I have been following this thread and tried many settings with only a small percentage that are significantly out of line. In your case, what such a rest would prove is-- is Green in trouble on your projector or your calibration setup? If settings from others are anywhere near usable and green is within range you will have your answer, and in a very short time.

I will do that once I get the review unit back again in a couple of weeks. Apparently JVC's local rep has only one review unit they circulate among magazines, which is kinda sad.

Please, feel free to call me by my first name, Petri.
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post #790 of 1634 Old 05-30-2009, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

Well, I have. Are you talking about RS20 only, or have you been testing various models from various manufacturers? Granted, there's less variation between projectors by some manufacturers than others, but I've yet to discover two units (of the same model, naturally) where you can copy settings from calibrated one to the other and get acceptable results.


I will do that once I get the review unit back again in a couple of weeks. Apparently JVC's local rep has only one review unit they circulate among magazines, which is kinda sad.

My experience is only with the RS20. I was supprised with my CMS findings. (As one would expect - gray scale settings have not been transportable)

KT
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post #791 of 1634 Old 05-30-2009, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignace View Post

Look carefully in the greenish background and in the 2 pink blurry areas in the background, I saw more contouring using the CMS compared to THX. I must stress that we are speaking of little contouring, so you have to look carefully! But you can see that the colors are a bit more "jumping around" in smooth transitions
...

I checked carefully your image in Capture NX.
There is no banding and the JPEG compression is clean.
The bokey is nice but in the mentionned areas green and pink are blured and mixed. There is a lot of very fine color variations; the saturation gradient is smooth but visible.
So your test material is good.

Some days ago I reported that the saturation curve in HCHR is not linear. mainly in the 90-100% area where the slope in very abrupt.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16479404

As a result some pixels having very close colors in that portion of the curve are reduced to the same value and seen as larger area similar to banding.
This is similar to artefact in low quality compressed jpeg files.
In some areas switching the CMS does enlarge them.

Two different cms settings will produce different saturation curves, and therefore different positions and colors of 'banding'.
Switching from one to the other animates the pixels.
The statistical distribution of the blur is modified and is dependant of the non-linearity.

There is an other aspect of the problem above Saturation 75%: the saturation curves of the primaries are very distant from each other. The effect is the same.

my test results:
CMS off has almost no effect since it is linear
Gamut transformed by pixel shader is very good
THX is not too bad and smooth
CMS depends on the shape of the saturation curve, but is visible in any case

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Very interesting! You have clearly taken more measurements than anyone else.
I don't have reference to your actual readings right now, but overall I recall this looking very, very good. Something does appear to be going on, mainly between 97% and 100% saturations. What do you think it is? I don't have the tools to take as many readings as you do but I don't see any issue when comparing 100% and 75% saturations.

Sorry for the delay.
Do this test in HCFR: use the internal patterns, in the menu select 40 colors for the saturation test and look carefully at the screen; the two last transitions are very strong and will jump to your eyes.
I do not understand what is wrong in the CMS at that level.
In the 90% sat area the relative positions and distances of primaries saturations are of the same order as their relative brightness level.
That is a remark, not an explaination...
Regarding the saturations, the CMS is not totally fixed
Unfortunately
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post #792 of 1634 Old 05-30-2009, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leDahu View Post

I checked carefully your image in Capture NX.
There is no banding and the JPEG compression is clean.
The bokey is nice but in the mentionned areas green and pink are blured and mixed. There is a lot of very fine color variations; the saturation gradient is smooth but visible.
So your test material is good.

Some days ago I reported that the saturation curve in HCHR is not linear. mainly in the 90-100% area where the slope in very abrupt.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16479404

As a result some pixels having very close colors in that portion of the curve are reduced to the same value and seen as larger area similar to banding.
This is similar to artefact in low quality compressed jpeg files.
In some areas switching the CMS does enlarge them.

Two different cms settings will produce different saturation curves, and therefore different positions and colors of 'banding'.
Switching from one to the other animates the pixels.
The statistical distribution of the blur is modified and is dependant of the non-linearity.

There is an other aspect of the problem above Saturation 75%: the saturation curves of the primaries are very distant from each other. The effect is the same.

my test results:
CMS off has almost no effect since it is linear
Gamut transformed by pixel shader is very good
THX is not too bad and smooth
CMS depends on the shape of the saturation curve, but is visible in any case

Thanks for your (very mathematical) analysis on the banding.

So, do you also prefer THX compared to the CMS if you consider only the banding aspect?
OK, THX is not perfect, it still adds some banding compared to CMS OFF. But to me it is the best compromise to get close to Rec.709. Personally I'm more sensitive to banding than to colors that are not 100 % correct.

Yes, the CMS is not completely fixed .

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post #793 of 1634 Old 05-30-2009, 04:43 PM
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The small errors that leDahu reported, even if not unique to his calibration (and I don't know that they aren't) are a long way from a "broken" CMS. I would wager that if you measured any display they way that leDahu has, you would find things at least as bad. Most would kill for a Display that measures like his does.

We need to relax and understand that the world is not perfect.

LeDahu, gave you tried another probe? This might explain these readings?

Affable Nitwit
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post #794 of 1634 Old 05-31-2009, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignace View Post

Thanks for your (very mathematical) analysis on the banding.

So, do you also prefer THX compared to the CMS if you consider only the banding aspect?
OK, THX is not perfect, it still adds some banding compared to CMS OFF. But to me it is the best compromise to get close to Rec.709. Personally I'm more sensitive to banding than to colors that are not 100 % correct.

Yes, the CMS is not completely fixed .

Ignace.

Yes I would prefer THX to avoid pseudo banding.
Nevertheless this is not a frequent situation.

The THX overall visual quality improved with the new firmware even if I have to complain on some points.

Switching from my spot on CMS to THX shows minor differences: less sharpness, still flatter without excess. Very comparable. I finally set color control to +5 and tint to -1 (might be my probe) to get nearly the same global result.

I'm sensitive to colors and hate oversaturation when it explodes a small area.
By the way I applied on your photo a touch of D-lighting and played a bit with the gamma. The situation improved. I guess that the pixels were homogenized.

I do prefer KMPlayer + pixel shader for viewing my photos. But it is not flexible for slide show.
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post #795 of 1634 Old 05-31-2009, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post
The small errors that leDahu reported, even if not unique to his calibration (and I don't know that they aren't) are a long way from a "broken" CMS. I would wager that if you measured any display they way that leDahu has, you would find things at least as bad. Most would kill for a Display that measures like his does.

We need to relax and understand that the world is not perfect.

LeDahu, gave you tried another probe? This might explain these readings?
I ran additionnal tests but I will report later with details since I'll leave tomorrow for holliday.
The spyder2 gives the same profile: no doubt.
THX also changed with the new FW

I checked again the pixel shader in KMPlayer: no problem
Try it: the script is included in the HCFR file

In the meantime I will also develop additionnal sets of patterns for my player

 

KMPlayer & pixel shader.zip 1.974609375k . file
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post #796 of 1634 Old 06-01-2009, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leDahu View Post

Yes I would prefer THX to avoid pseudo banding.
Nevertheless this is not a frequent situation.

The THX overall visual quality improved with the new firmware even if I have to complain on some points.

Switching from my spot on CMS to THX shows minor differences: less sharpness, still flatter without excess. Very comparable. I finally set color control to +5 and tint to -1 (might be my probe) to get nearly the same global result.

I'm sensitive to colors and hate oversaturation when it explodes a small area.
By the way I applied on your photo a touch of D-lighting and played a bit with the gamma. The situation improved. I guess that the pixels were homogenized.

I do prefer KMPlayer + pixel shader for viewing my photos. But it is not flexible for slide show.

I agree, seeing banding is not a frequent situation. Until now I saw it only in 3 of my photo's and in the movie "Hard Candy"; both in yellowish skintones and on blue/greenish chirurgy clothes.

Are you not introducing non-linearity by setting the color to +5 in THX? I tried once increasing the color control on fully saturated colors, and nothing was happening, only decreasing the color setting is visible. So, you get a kind of clipping once you reach the Rec.709 triangle?

By the way, have a nice holiday!

Ignace.
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post #797 of 1634 Old 06-01-2009, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

The small errors that leDahu reported, even if not unique to his calibration (and I don't know that they aren't) are a long way from a "broken" CMS. I would wager that if you measured any display they way that leDahu has, you would find things at least as bad. Most would kill for a Display that measures like his does.

We need to relax and understand that the world is not perfect.

LeDahu, gave you tried another probe? This might explain these readings?

The problem is that these "small errors" do show up in very rare cases as very ugly banding artifacts.

Yes, the world is not perfect, but it could have been much better would JVC had choosen for a smaller gammut to start with .

Ignace.
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post #798 of 1634 Old 06-03-2009, 05:25 PM
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anyone have some nice screen shots after the calibration and firmware fix that they would like to share?
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post #799 of 1634 Old 06-06-2009, 04:39 PM
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I have calibrated several of these now and a pattern is beginning to emerge.

First, the native gamut in User 1 and the white point in 6500K is very consistent. I am getting the following:

Primaries
x y Y L S H
R 0.672 0.327 0.234 4.1% 12.1% -0.7%
G 0.285 0.697 0.694 -1.2% 22.4% 2.6%
B 0.140 0.052 0.068 -2.7% 5.6% -2.0%
White
Low High
x 0.323 0.317
y 0.341 0.335
R 104% 101%
G 100% 100%
B 89% 95%

If you are seeing something considerably different from this, then you might want to question the results from your meter or you have an unusual unit.

As you can see, the errors in the primaries are almost exclusively in the saturation realm, and the 6500K white is blue deficient, with a little excess red--worse on the low end than on the top end.

Post-calibration, I had problems getting blue right on one unit but the other two were fine. Also, I had problems getting gamma flat and anything above 2.2 on one unit, but, again, the other two were fine--very flat with a gamma in the 2.22-2.3 range. So there is some significant unit-to-unit variation in these areas.

Tom Huffman
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post #800 of 1634 Old 06-06-2009, 10:00 PM
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I am new to this calibration set up I just got my RS20 and updated the firmware. What is the best settings someone would reccmend to key in for all settings
'
Thanks
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post #801 of 1634 Old 06-07-2009, 01:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I have calibrated several of these now and a pattern is beginning to emerge...

Thanks very much for sharing this Tom.
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post #802 of 1634 Old 06-09-2009, 05:09 PM
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Greg Roger's review of the JVC RS20 is now on the Widescreen Reviews Web Site . It's very good . Well done Greg .

Scott.........................

"Home Theatre is a Journey , not a Destination "
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post #803 of 1634 Old 06-10-2009, 07:15 AM
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opinions please -
i have had my rs20 ISF calibrated - very happy with the results - image quality is fantastic -
however , i am experiening some "softness" in some material (mostly D*TV related )
- my screen is a stewart 110" luxus greyhawk 16:9 that i have used with my prevoius PJ (a sharp 9ku - a 720p DLP machine ) -
i AM able to achieve extreme focus using the rs20 remote using the "lens" section -

yet image when material plays , is NOT razor sharp .....

my question is - is this percieved "softness" due to the screen material ?
or possiblly due to the D-ILA technology ?
or possibly STILL due to the D*TV feed / transmission ?
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post #804 of 1634 Old 06-10-2009, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank bavaro View Post

opinions please -
i have had my rs20 ISF calibrated - very happy with the results - image quality is fantastic -
however , i am experiening some "softness" in some material (mostly D*TV related )
- my screen is a stewart 110" luxus greyhawk 16:9 that i have used with my prevoius PJ (a sharp 9ku - a 720p DLP machine ) -
i AM able to achieve extreme focus using the rs20 remote using the "lens" section -

yet image when material plays , is NOT razor sharp .....

my question is - is this percieved "softness" due to the screen material ?
or possiblly due to the D-ILA technology ?
or possibly STILL due to the D*TV feed / transmission ?

If the softness comes and goes with different material, then it is in the source material. Perhaps the RS20 is just doing a better job of resolving small differences in source material that before you hadn't noticed.

The screen is fine.

That said, assuming the same optics, LCoS is still not quite as sharp as single-chip DLP, but I don't think that the difference is large.

Tom Huffman
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post #805 of 1634 Old 06-10-2009, 07:50 AM
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thx for your reply Tom ,
i do feel the "softness" is a combination of
1) DLP vs D-ILA - if so , you are correct the difference IS slight , yet appararant
and
2) a function of bad feed/transmission from D*TV -
tonight i will go back and forth from BLURAY and D*TV to try to take a very close look at image sharpness -
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post #806 of 1634 Old 06-10-2009, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank bavaro View Post

thx for your reply Tom ,
i do feel the "softness" is a combination of
1) DLP vs D-ILA - if so , you are correct the difference IS slight , yet appararant
and
2) a function of bad feed/transmission from D*TV -
tonight i will go back and forth from BLURAY and D*TV to try to take a very close look at image sharpness -

Dish adds compression to the compression already used by broadcasters. Cable isn't very good but Satellite is even worse.


Check your blurays and if something still doesn't look right, I would bet that something is not set up properly.

Affable Nitwit
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post #807 of 1634 Old 06-10-2009, 08:02 AM
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"Check your blurays and if something still doesn't look right, I would bet that something is not set up properly.[/quote]"



although ,part of the ISF calibration / fee was making sure all components are properly set up - i am confident set up are OK

we DID change from component cable to HDMI for the D*TV box -
"softness" remained post changing of the wires
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post #808 of 1634 Old 06-10-2009, 11:17 AM
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Have any of you guys used DIY tools to cal to SMPTE-C? I have a D2, use HCFR or CAL-MAN with AVIA SD or AVS_709. I'm just a little fuzzy on this... do I need another disk with SMPTE-C coded fields?

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post #809 of 1634 Old 06-11-2009, 04:30 PM
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Hi, Well after a number of crashes on multiple computers with Calman software I had Michael (TLV) come over and calibrate my display again after the 1.1 firmware update. Here are the pictures of the final settings.












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post #810 of 1634 Old 06-11-2009, 04:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickS View Post

Hi, Well after a number of crashes on multiple computers with Calman software I had Michael (TLV) come over and calibrate my display again after the 1.1 firmware update. Here are the pictures of the final settings.

It is important to note that those contrast/brightness settings are likely for HDMI setting to "enhanced," which is an option that you did not picture. Neutral 0 clips at video levels, but is correct otherwise for 16-235 input to normal or whatever the option is that isn't enhanced (I forget exactly). To prevent clipping to 16-235, you have to choose enhanced, then drop brightness by about 6, and boost contrast by about 6, is what I've found, depending on what you do to gamma and your RGB gains/cuts.
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