Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread (NEW FIRMWARE V1.1) - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 1634 Old 06-11-2009, 04:46 PM
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Greetings

In 1939 ... when working on the specs for NTSC SD TV ... one of the founding fathers was quoted as saying ... "one day this TV system of ours is going to be capable of displaying large screen images ... images as big as 19 inches."

How large is your projected image?

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post #812 of 1634 Old 06-11-2009, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIY Guy View Post

Have any of you guys used DIY tools to cal to SMPTE-C? I have a D2, use HCFR or CAL-MAN with AVIA SD or AVS_709. I'm just a little fuzzy on this... do I need another disk with SMPTE-C coded fields?

No. Just calibrate to the SMPTE-C targets.

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post #813 of 1634 Old 06-11-2009, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

No. Just calibrate to the SMPTE-C targets.

Tom,

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Steve
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post #814 of 1634 Old 06-11-2009, 11:29 PM
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Rick - try setting Sharpness to 10 and Detail Enhance to 35. My favorite tweak on the RS20.
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post #815 of 1634 Old 06-11-2009, 11:33 PM
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Mine too !!
Confirm !!
Always keep setted like this !!
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post #816 of 1634 Old 06-12-2009, 01:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

It is important to note that those contrast/brightness settings are likely for HDMI setting to "enhanced," which is an option that you did not picture. Neutral 0 clips at video levels, but is correct otherwise for 16-235 input to normal or whatever the option is that isn't enhanced (I forget exactly). To prevent clipping to 16-235, you have to choose enhanced, then drop brightness by about 6, and boost contrast by about 6, is what I've found, depending on what you do to gamma and your RGB gains/cuts.

You're right about the brightness/contrast settings in Ricks PJ being for enhanced mode Chris, but in my experience there is no WTW/BTB clipping with the new firrmware (it was as you describe with the old firmware), which makes it not necessary to use HDMI enhanced mode unless some computer sources can't output in standard mode.

By the way if one wants to have all their sources in standard to make switching between them easier, it is possible to adjust contrast/brightness in the source itself (for example your BD player) in order to avoid the clipping. I find it really annoying to have to use different settings depending on the HDMI setting, so I have everything set to standard (wiht brightness / contrast to 0) and I adjust in the source if necessary to set WTW/BTB.
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post #817 of 1634 Old 06-12-2009, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Rick - try setting Sharpness to 10 and Detail Enhance to 35. My favorite tweak on the RS20.

I did have it there and Michael set it to what you see in the picture. I think Michael had mentioned he had talked to an engineer at JVC and was told to use the above setting. Oh......yeah the picture is the best I have seen from this projector. Very happy with the calibration that Michael did for me again.

Rick
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post #818 of 1634 Old 06-12-2009, 01:46 PM
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[quote=RickS;16630004Hi, Well after a number of crashes on multiple computers with Calman software I had Michael (TLV) come over and calibrate my display again after the 1.1 firmware update. Here are the pictures of the final settings.]

Thanks for posting your settings.
These settings appear to work pretty well on my RS20 .. especially for flesh tones, which are the best I have seen.

Looking at some REC 601 and 709 color bars it almost looks like this CMS setup may have been calibrated for REC 601 and intended for use with Std DVD'd. So my question is this -- Were the settings you show created by calibrating against the REC 601 or 709 color gaumet?

Thanks
KT
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post #819 of 1634 Old 06-12-2009, 01:55 PM
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KT, the settings were for REC709. Michael calibrated the display for my Bluray and then used his signal generator for HD Sat......both were very close.

Rick
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post #820 of 1634 Old 06-12-2009, 04:38 PM
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I'm not sure GregR's report thread is still being read, so I'll ask a question also here:

The preset gamma 'A' curve that Greg shows in his review looks very desireable--rather high, with a roll off at low IRE to preserve good resolution in dark scenes. Do people find it to work well? (I'm out of the country at present and can't try it out until I get back home.)
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post #821 of 1634 Old 06-12-2009, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

You're right about the brightness/contrast settings in Ricks PJ being for enhanced mode Chris, but in my experience there is no WTW/BTB clipping with the new firrmware (it was as you describe with the old firmware), which makes it not necessary to use HDMI enhanced mode unless some computer sources can't output in standard mode.

The clipping still exists after the firmware upgrade. The upgrade has no effect on the clipping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

By the way if one wants to have all their sources in standard to make switching between them easier, it is possible to adjust contrast/brightness in the source itself (for example your BD player) in order to avoid the clipping. I find it really annoying to have to use different settings depending on the HDMI setting, so I have everything set to standard (wiht brightness / contrast to 0) and I adjust in the source if necessary to set WTW/BTB.

Set all of your sources to Standard and then set the projector to Enhanced and adjust the projector once. You won't need to adjust any of your sources (which is usually not a good idea).

Greg Rogers
Video Engineer/Product Designer

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post #822 of 1634 Old 06-12-2009, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

I'm not sure GregR's report thread is still being read, so I'll ask a question also here:

The preset gamma 'A' curve that Greg shows in his review looks very desireable--rather high, with a roll off at low IRE to preserve good resolution in dark scenes. Do people find it to work well? (I'm out of the country at present and can't try it out until I get back home.)

Havent seen the report, but I did use A curve for quite a while and thought it was good. However, currently I am preferring B curve, because I like the kind of additional brightness I get from there. I also have some oversaturation dialed in, so that might be a factor here too.
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post #823 of 1634 Old 06-12-2009, 11:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

The clipping still exists after the firmware upgrade. The upgrade has no effect on the clipping.

Set all of your sources to Standard and then set the projector to Enhanced and adjust the projector once. You won't need to adjust any of your sources (which is usually not a good idea).

Thanks Greg, but that's not my experience.

With the original firmware, my BD-50 in standard mode and the PJ set to standard as well was clipping BTB (not visible on a pluge even with brightness pumped up). The only way to get it to show was to adjust settings on the BD-50. Same for WTW.

With the new firmware, BTB is visible if one pushes brightness above the default of 0 (HDMI standard for both BD and PJ). Although it could be an automatic update of the BD-50 firmware that happened more or less at the same time? I'll double check this.

I'll try to set the sources to standard and the PJ to enhanced and adjust constrast/brightness, that is something I never tried as I thought source and display had to match, thanks very much for the tip.

Edit: tried your advice to set all sources to standard, PJ to enhanced and adjust once. This seems to work very well, thanks.
Re clipping, it looks like your were right, it is still clipping with the new firmware. I have no idea why it stopped clipping at some point (or why I think it stopped). But the fact is it still clipping. Thanks for correcting this.
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post #824 of 1634 Old 06-13-2009, 10:41 AM
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Are there any RS 20 owners who have this firmware update that live anywhere close to Montgomery Al? Or are there any that is in the driven path between Montgomery Al and West Virginia?
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post #825 of 1634 Old 06-13-2009, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

I've compared my HP with black-out cloth and Stewart 130, with a lowly D2 meter the color shift between the BO measure a dE of about 2, the HP being slightly more red overall, the Stewart had similar error but I don't have the specifics at hand. There was a thread in the screen section where someone measured in a very detailed manner many different screens and each is different. I'm a little surprised to what I'm reading here, UMR preaches about the necessity of the level of precision found only in his uber expensive meter for calibrations but then, somewhat contrary to his preachings, doesn't measure off the screen and doesn't calibrate color gamut to any standard. His practice potentially has introduced more error than any purported benefits of using the "reference" gear he often preaches is necessary to get it right.


It's okay to measure off the projector -- as long as you know and apply the offset of the particular screen material you will be projecting on. It's likely not a huge difference in most cases, but it will be significant.
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post #826 of 1634 Old 06-15-2009, 10:43 AM
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I have been working on calibrating my RS20 using an Eye One Display 2, CalMAN v1.3, AVS HD 709 v1.2, and a ps3 (and learning a lot from this forum). For grins, I decided to test the out of the box (unmodified) THX mode. As you can see in the attached report, THX is measuring a color temperature of between 7,000K and 8,000K (with consistently too little red). The entire gamut is also shifted considerably towards green.

I know that people have been saying that you need to correct the greyscale tracking of THX, but do you need to adjust it this much? In other words, does this look right, or is there something wrong with my I1D2?

Thanks!

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THX.pdf 96.7265625k . file
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post #827 of 1634 Old 06-15-2009, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMark View Post
I have been working on calibrating my RS20 using an Eye One Display 2, CalMAN v1.3, AVS HD 709 v1.2, and a ps3 (and learning a lot from this forum). For grins, I decided to test the out of the box (unmodified) THX mode. As you can see in the attached report, THX is measuring a color temperature of between 7,000K and 8,000K (with consistently too little red). The entire gamut is also shifted considerably towards green.

I know that people have been saying that you need to correct the greyscale tracking of THX, but do you need to adjust it this much? In other words, does this look right, or is there something wrong with my I1D2?

Thanks!

--Mark
Mark -

Here is a link on my HT thread where I posted some curves from my Craigr calibration.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16520757

I have added one PDF file with pre/post results.
I think Craigr used THX as a starting point.

Mike

 

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post #828 of 1634 Old 06-15-2009, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMark View Post

I know that people have been saying that you need to correct the greyscale tracking of THX, but do you need to adjust it this much? In other words, does this look right, or is there something wrong with my I1D2?

This looks unlike any THX grayscale I have ever seen, and I have seen several. Either your meter is off quite a bit or you have an unusual RS20. That's an unacceptably high grayscale error, and by quite a large margin.

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post #829 of 1634 Old 06-15-2009, 01:43 PM
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Greetings

Eye One Display 2 ... on the RS20!!

Regards

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post #830 of 1634 Old 06-15-2009, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

Eye One Display 2 ... on the RS20!!

Regards



Are you saying that the Eye One Display 2 is bad?

--Mark
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post #831 of 1634 Old 06-15-2009, 04:30 PM
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Greetings

Not usually recommended for doing CMS on this type of technology or any type.

Unless you compared/profiled it to a much more precise device like even the eyeone pro ...

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post #832 of 1634 Old 06-15-2009, 08:20 PM
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Regarding the clipping - I haven't been following this. How often does this issue show up with real world material?

Is it enough to just set all the sources to standard, and set the pj to enhanced and just then dial in the pj's brightness/contrast accordingly? Will this be ok even though my receiver has a bug that prevents passing WTW or BTB? I assume it would be ok since the sources are set to standard anyway.

Also would this change affect my custom gamma WRGB tweaks and gamma curve? Or all else will stay the same once the right brightness and contrast is dialed back in with the pj in enhanced mode? Thanks.
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post #833 of 1634 Old 06-15-2009, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMark View Post

Are you saying that the Eye One Display 2 is bad?

It is an inexpensive meter which can show some significant unit-to-unit variation. It can yield good results, but it can also be significantly off. With the numbers you reported, you should be able see a clear green bias with the naked eye. Do you?

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post #834 of 1634 Old 06-16-2009, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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After reading the (excellent) review by GregR and the info kindly posted by TomH recently about SMPTE-C, I have re-calibrated my PJ following a new screen/lamp combination, and have used the opportunity to try calibrating for both Rec-709 and SMPTE-C.

I went back to my Carada BW as I couldn't get the Seymour XD material to stay in place on the Carada frame despite my best efforts, so the calibration has been made with a new lamp and the Carada screen (1.1 effective gain, 1.4 advertised). I haven't fine-tuned anything as I'm waiting for the new lamp to reach 100 hours. I got in my configuration (mid-throw) around 600 lumens calibrated (THX/6500K/High lamp/Iris Open) so I'm pretty happy with the new lamp.

I was really surprised to see that for most BD movies I tried, SMPTE-C indeed gave much more realistic skin tones, so thanks Greg for prompting the experiment.

I have also used GregR tip to leave all my sources to HDMI standard, setup the PJ to HDMI Enhanced and adjust brightness accordingly.
This worked very well, and I ended up with the following settings:

Brightness=-6
Contrast=4
Color=0
Tint=0
Iris=-9 to -5 depending on content, I calibrated to -7
Color temp: custom to 6500K
Gains (probably useless unless you happen to have a new lamp and a PJ similar to mine):
R=0
G=-14
B=-60
Offsets:
R=-1
G=0
B=0
Gamma: set to 2.4 in custom2

REC-709 (user1)
R=-14 -18 1
Y=16 -45 39
G=-15 -42 35
C=-2 -53 45
B=1 -19 -3
M=-5 0 -3

SMPTE-C (user2)
R=-5 -24 2
Y=15 -42 33
G=-42 -41 29
C=-9 -57 48
B=1 -25 3
M=-11 0 -3

Feel free to experiment with the two settings and to report how it looks like on your PJ/screen, especially regarding skin tones. I have yet to find a BD movie that gets more realistic skin tones with REC 709!
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post #835 of 1634 Old 06-16-2009, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

I have also used GregR tip to leave all my sources to HDMI standard, setup the PJ to HDMI Enhanced and adjust brightness accordingly.
This worked very well, and I ended up with the following settings:

Brightness=-6
Contrast=4

I'm confused. I told you that the Standard level mode still clipped after the firmware upgrade, but you disagreed. But then you went ahead and used the Enhanced level mode. Why?

Greg Rogers
Video Engineer/Product Designer

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post #836 of 1634 Old 06-16-2009, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

I'm confused. I told you that the Standard level mode still clipped after the firmware upgrade, but you disagreed. But then you went ahead and used the Enhanced level mode. Why?

You may have missed the edit of my post, I checked and agreed you were right.
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post #837 of 1634 Old 06-16-2009, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

You may have missed the edit of my post, I checked and agreed you were right.

Sorry, I saw the post when it initially went up.

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post #838 of 1634 Old 06-16-2009, 07:51 PM
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How are you deciding the contrast level setting (aside from using an Accupel generator)?

I have from the beginning-with the RS20-used the HDMI enhanced input mode with Brightness settings of about -6 or -7 and a contrast setting of 6 to 11. What I have been doing is to first look for B&W gray scale compression at the 235 and 255 bit levels and then back the contrast down so the difference at the brightest steps is easily seen. Then, using the HD-DVD version of DVE, and the 6 full-color ramps available on that disk, I look for compression at the highest levels on all of the 6 color ramps.

There is always some compression at contrast levels of, say 11. If I adjust contrast down to about 6 most of the compression is eliminated. I used this technique originally to help decide which of the pre-revision CMS settings developed on this thread would be the best compromise for my projector.

So, is this a reasonable way (without access to an Accupel generator) to decide on the maximum contrast setting on the RS20?

Note: The RS20 built in color ramps do not show compression, probably because of their location in the signal path , and can not be used to set the Contrast control to the optimum level.


KT
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post #839 of 1634 Old 06-17-2009, 12:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTTV Images View Post

How are you deciding the contrast level setting (aside from using an Accupel generator)?

I have from the beginning-with the RS20-used the HDMI enhanced input mode with Brightness settings of about -6 or -7 and a contrast setting of 6 to 11. What I have been doing is to first look for B&W gray scale compression at the 235 and 255 bit levels and then back the contrast down so the difference at the brightest steps is easily seen. Then, using the HD-DVD version of DVE, and the 6 full-color ramps available on that disk, I look for compression at the highest levels on all of the 6 color ramps.

There is always some compression at contrast levels of, say 11. If I adjust contrast down to about 6 most of the compression is eliminated. I used this technique originally to help decide which of the pre-revision CMS settings developed on this thread would be the best compromise for my projector.

So, is this a reasonable way (without access to an Accupel generator) to decide on the maximum contrast setting on the RS20?

Note: The RS20 built in color ramps do not show compression, probably because of their location in the signal path , and can not be used to set the Contrast control to the optimum level.


KT

I use the AVS HD V1.2 disk. It has ramps to set brightness and contrast which I prefer to DVE, although I check brightness with DVE as I like its simple pluge patterns.
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post #840 of 1634 Old 06-17-2009, 01:53 AM
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Manni - Thanks for the input.

With the contrast set to 4 (using the new revised firmware), as you indicated, am I correct that you see essentially no compression on all 6 color ramps?

And if you were to raise it it to 8 would compression become significant?

KT
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