Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread (NEW FIRMWARE V1.1) - Page 38 - AVS Forum
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post #1111 of 1634 Old 09-12-2009, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chris Dallas View Post

I just want to point out that since this thread started on April 28 2009 I've applied manni's settings & the picture is just wonderful. I would also like to remind people here that I've seen 68,564 movies ever since while you folks continue to make it a tad better

I've watched a few films myself, I just wanted to calibrate my PJ now that the new lamp is 150 hours, especially using Le Dahu's great procedure to fine tune gamma, and I ran into a few mysteries...

Like LDVD says, a properly tuned gamma makes a HUGE difference.

I think LDVD would be happy to calibrate your PJ if you give him that spin in your car he keeps asking about
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post #1112 of 1634 Old 09-12-2009, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

I've watched a few films myself, I just wanted to calibrate my PJ now that the new lamp is 150 hours, especially using Le Dahu's great procedure to fine tune gamma, and I ran into a few mysteries...

Like LDVD says, a properly tuned gamma makes a HUGE difference.

I think LDVD would be happy to calibrate your PJ if you give him that spin in your car he keeps asking about

I haven't read this thread for quite sometime, would it be possible for you to post Le Dahu's great procedure to fine tune gamma so that I don't spend all day looking for it?

TIA

Cheers
Chris

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post #1113 of 1634 Old 09-12-2009, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Glad you are able to leverage all the hard work. All we ask is that you take us for a spin one day.

Chris - one important thing I would like to point out... Assuming you have 200-300 hours or more on your bulb, I highly recommend getting it calibrated. This is because no settings posted here can correct your gamma, which no doubt-ably has drifted significantly from 2.2. My guess is that, if you haven't had it calibrated, you are probably running closer to 2.0.

The impact on this is very significant. You would be amazed to see the dimensionality that would return to the picture (even if you think it already looks stellar) once the gamma was corrected.

lovingdvd,

thanks for the heads up, I play with the gamma a lot, I have nearly 750 hours now on my PJ so it's something that needs to be done every 200hrs or so imo.

Cheers
Chris

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post #1114 of 1634 Old 09-12-2009, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Dallas View Post

lovingdvd,

thanks for the heads up, I play with the gamma a lot, I have nearly 750 hours now on my PJ so it's something that needs to be done every 200hrs or so imo.

Great. If you have not yet seen it, check out leDahu's incredibly useful spreadsheet for gamma calibration posted within the last few pages of this thread.
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post #1115 of 1634 Old 09-12-2009, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Dallas View Post

I haven't read this thread for quite sometime, would it be possible for you to post Le Dahu's great procedure to fine tune gamma so that I don't spend all day looking for it?

TIA

Everything is indexed in the first post (look for calibration tips)
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post #1116 of 1634 Old 09-12-2009, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I did two runs per disc for each serie (except for the last two) so that we have a control read.
Just as a background for anyone following along with Manni01's measurements, the HDMV and Patched versions use identical video encodes. Assuming that there are not any problems in the download or burn to disc, the main variable from my perspective is the player. I can't reproduce or explain the "large reddish rectangles within larger greenish rectangles", but I don't have any reason to at all question the color measurements.

Since relative Y for the colors was the major difference in the prior measurements, I copied the Y values for color and pasted them in a spreadsheet. They're input by rows in the order measured and split into sets based on common display settings. Columns A-G are Y for Red, Green, Blue, Yellow, Cyan, Magenta, Gray. Columns I-N are relative Y for RGBYCM. Columns P-W just compare relative Y, where P-U represent RGBYCM. For simplicity the line in bold is primarily what I'm looking at to quickly compare relative Y between the different discs.

I would tend to throw out a few of the measurements where 100% Y varies between runs, for example the first and fourth runs vary by quite a bit for the Y measured. In the good duplicate measurements there were only a couple instances where relative Y ever differed by more than about 0.2%. There does appear to be a difference in measurements between the disks that is greater than that 0.2% difference from common measurements. The most consistent difference appears to be the relative Y measured for red, which measures consistently lower on the Patched version than the HDMV.


To try to put things into perspective I included some comparison runs:

A) I measured HDMV and Patched on my electronics. Because I know my display varies with time, I only measured color to make the runs quickly. In my measurements relative Y between the discs is similar to the difference between measurements of the same disc. The main point here is just that the difference in Manni01's measures isn't necessarily directly related to the disc version.

B) I included a comparison between a correct and incorrect decode matrix I had previously taken. The difference in Manni01's measurements are not at all similar to what would likely happen if one of the discs was being decoded with an incorrect matrix.

C) I included a previous comparison between my display receiving an SD input and the display receiving an HD input. This is generally in line with the sort of difference being shown in Manni01's measures.

 

ComparisonSets.zip 6.6796875k . file

 

Spreadsheet.zip 8.3798828125k . file
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post #1117 of 1634 Old 09-13-2009, 12:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Just as a background for anyone following along with Manni01's measurements, the HDMV and Patched versions use identical video encodes. Assuming that there are not any problems in the download or burn to disc, the main variable from my perspective is the player. I can't reproduce or explain the "large reddish rectangles within larger greenish rectangles", but I don't have any reason to at all question the color measurements.

Since relative Y for the colors was the major difference in the prior measurements, I copied the Y values for color and pasted them in a spreadsheet. They're input by rows in the order measured and split into sets based on common display settings. Columns A-G are Y for Red, Green, Blue, Yellow, Cyan, Magenta, Gray. Columns I-N are relative Y for RGBYCM. Columns P-W just compare relative Y, where P-U represent RGBYCM. For simplicity the line in bold is primarily what I'm looking at to quickly compare relative Y between the different discs.

I would tend to throw out a few of the measurements where 100% Y varies between runs, for example the first and fourth runs vary by quite a bit for the Y measured. In the good duplicate measurements there were only a couple instances where relative Y ever differed by more than about 0.2%. There does appear to be a difference in measurements between the disks that is greater than that 0.2% difference from common measurements. The most consistent difference appears to be the relative Y measured for red, which measures consistently lower on the Patched version than the HDMV.


To try to put things into perspective I included some comparison runs:

A) I measured HDMV and Patched on my electronics. Because I know my display varies with time, I only measured color to make the runs quickly. In my measurements relative Y between the discs is similar to the difference between measurements of the same disc. The main point here is just that the difference in Manni01's measures isn't necessarily directly related to the disc version.

B) I included a comparison between a correct and incorrect decode matrix I had previously taken. The difference in Manni01's measurements are not at all similar to what would likely happen if one of the discs was being decoded with an incorrect matrix.

C) I included a previous comparison between my display receiving an SD input and the display receiving an HD input. This is generally in line with the sort of difference being shown in Manni01's measures.

Thanks a lot for your time and for the information.

I agree the difference in Y percentage is small, however the difference between the two discs is consistantly of around 3 to 4 dE in gamut measures for some colors.

I don't think the difference is that bad as a 3dE error on a color is probably not visible per se.

I did try to compare the discs on my HDMI laptop, but I have recently upgraded to Win7 rtm and my video drivers are not compatible with PowerDVD, so I couldn't play the AVSHD discs. I have therefore no way to check if this behaviour is specific to my BD player or not.

However I recalibrated my PJ yesterday using an HDMV disc for the first time, (back to HDMI enhanced, brightness=-6 contrast=0), using the Display2 trained to the i1pro for all the work, gamut and greyscale) and the results are extremely interesting. The i1pro was facing the screen to take the reference measures, and the display2 was facing the PJ (diffuser on).

When I measured my existing calibration (the last "good" one, that has been posted here), my color temp was all wrong. Red was way too high. So I pushed green back up (a lot) and blue (not as much but still), aiming for a 100% white as perfect as possible as per Le Dahu's procedure.

The first result was that my RGB got instantly flat for all three colors from 50IRE to 100IRE, which I had never seen before (I had a dE for white of 0.8). 5 to 50 was not as flat, but much closer that what I had before (pre gamma corrections). I also incidentally got a substantial amount of brightness back thanks to green not being pushed down that far.

Then I revised my gamut, and realised that a few colors, especially those that showed the biggest difference between the two discs, like red and yellow, where pushed two much especially as far as hue is concerned.

So calibrating with the HDMV version allowed me to "push back the controls" and use less hue and less saturation per color, which to me feels like a good thing. I still have a dE of around 8 for blue (and 6 for magenta), but apart from cyan that I intentionally moved back on the line between blue and yellow giving a dE 2-3, all other colors have a dE under 1.

I then did a pass on gamma with Le Dahu's excellent procedure (white only), and after a single pass my gamma was almost a flat 2.22 all across. For some reason my second pass was worse than the first one, but I was getting tired so it may be human error.

I have no idea if this is because I had completely botched my former calibrations (possibly because I was using the patched version, possibly because I'm totally incompetent), or if the small varirations between patched and hdmv are amplified when something as essential as a tweeked color temp is wrong (as you may recall there was no substantial difference between the two discs with THX and when when I used the standard 6500K color temp with my last user calibration).

The resulting picture is even better than what I had (and I was pretty happy with my last settings). Much more details in dark scenes, a more dimensional picture overall.

Until someone else measures a difference between the two discs, I'm happy to believe this is a one off due to my specific setup (possibly my player, possibly my AVR a Denon 1909?), made worse by my relative lack of experience.

But I would still encourage those who have calibrated a 750/rs20 with a patched disc (especially from a Panasonic BD playerand/or a Denon AVR) to check their calibration with an HDMV version. If they find a repeatable, significant difference on some colors, I would then encourage them to recalibrate using the HDMV version, from scratch (ie not only the gamut, but also the color temp and gamma adjustments).

I'm going to do more tests when I calibrate to SMPTE-C, especially to measure the new calibration with the patched disk. It would be intersting to see if the difference between the two discs is gone with my new calibration.

If I'm fully happy with it, I'll double check everything and post all the settings (before resuming watching films).
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post #1118 of 1634 Old 09-13-2009, 12:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Clearly then that is going to impact the measurement, assuming this pattern repeats throughout the window and is overlayed onto the meter. I only use the full fields, but the next time I have things fired up (likely this evening) I'll take a close look at the 5% and 10% patterns and let you know when I can see this pattern. I think I am using the 1.2b disc FWIW.

Thanks LD. I checked last night, and the effect is the same on full field patterns. The size of the rectangles is the same as on the window patterns. Visible (although subtle) reddish rectangles within a greenish "grid" on the PATCHED version, not visible on the HDMV version. So it looks on a field pattern as if the background is very slightly green, with regular reddish rectangles (wider than high). On my 88" diag screen, the reddish rectangles are about 1 foot wide and 4-5 inches high. 5IRE is best to spot the effect, as they disappear as you go up.

Again someone sane and normal would only see a grey screen. But I definitely see this pattern. Maybe it's a warning sign telling me I've spent too much time calibrating?
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post #1119 of 1634 Old 09-13-2009, 03:49 AM - Thread Starter
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A question for LovingDVD (and others who may have tried this):

I'm really happy with the 2.2 gamma curve I got with Le Dahu's procedure, and I think my setup (bat cave) could take a 2.4 at least with some material, possibly with a slightly more open iris.

Have you tried the "5% bump" vs the "slow curve to 2.4 as illustrated in Le Dahu's V2 spreadsheet"? What are your observations if you have?

I'd like to work on a setup with a higher gamma, but I was wondering if anyone had some feedback regarding these two approaches. I don't want to sacrifice dark details, but I'd like to get as much depth as I can to make up for the relatively low ANSI of the PJ
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post #1120 of 1634 Old 09-13-2009, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

A question for LovingDVD (and others who may have tried this):

I'm really happy with the 2.2 gamma curve I got with Le Dahu's procedure, and I think my setup (bat cave) could take a 2.4 at least with some material, possibly with a slightly more open iris.

Have you tried the "5% bump" vs the "slow curve to 2.4 as illustrated in Le Dahu's V2 spreadsheet"? What are your observations if you have?

I'd like to work on a setup with a higher gamma, but I was wondering if anyone had some feedback regarding these two approaches. I don't want to sacrifice dark details, but I'd like to get as much depth as I can to make up for the relatively low ANSI of the PJ

Hi Manni,

First regarding the AVS HD 709 patterns - the pattern you are seeing definitely sounds odd. Based on this I don't think there's anyway you can go by a measurement with such an artifact in the pattern. And I would wonder whether it is there at other levels enough to affect the measurement, even if not visible. I should be able to check this tonight on 1.2b that I use.

Have you ever tried using the HCFR generated patterns? If so it would be interesting to see which of your discs match up closer dE-wise to that as a reference.

Likewise do you have Digital Video Essentials and/or the GetGray disc to also compare against your AVS HD 709 discs (and possible against each other)? Even though the GetGray disc is SD DVD it should upconvert fine without causing color shift (I used to use this disc prior to AVS HD 709). Between all these possible sources of patterns I would think you could find a few to back each other up, then I'd probably trust that. Let me know what you find if you try this (or perhaps you already have?).

Recently I got a new laptop which allows me for the first time to connect to HDMI. When I used HCFR to generate the patterns, it measured somewhat different Y values and the dE values were about 2-3 dE different. So I figured I better trust AVS HD 709 since that was playing directly from the Blu-ray of course which is my main (only) source for real material. But now, I wonder if maybe HCFR is more accurate? Sorry if I've asked you this before but if so I do not recall your answer.

Regarding the 5% bump my original way versus leDahu's smoother curve - I suspect his curve may be a bit better as I have read that gamma curves should be kept smooth. However I have not tried it because it will take me a while to recalibrate and I haven't had the chance.

So far I like the 2.4 gamma a lot. But only use it for select movies/shows. For instance I find video games look better at 2.2, and so do some movies. 2.4 definitely makes things more film-like. For instance I have been watching Prison Break with 2.4 and it feels a lot more like film, and I find it a bit more enjoyable that way.
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post #1121 of 1634 Old 09-13-2009, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Hi Manni,

First regarding the AVS HD 709 patterns - the pattern you are seeing definitely sounds odd. Based on this I don't think there's anyway you can go by a measurement with such an artifact in the pattern. And I would wonder whether it is there at other levels enough to affect the measurement, even if not visible. I should be able to check this tonight on 1.2b that I use.

Have you ever tried using the HCFR generated patterns? If so it would be interesting to see which of your discs match up closer dE-wise to that as a reference.

Likewise do you have Digital Video Essentials and/or the GetGray disc to also compare against your AVS HD 709 discs (and possible against each other)? Even though the GetGray disc is SD DVD it should upconvert fine without causing color shift (I used to use this disc prior to AVS HD 709). Between all these possible sources of patterns I would think you could find a few to back each other up, then I'd probably trust that. Let me know what you find if you try this (or perhaps you already have?).

Recently I got a new laptop which allows me for the first time to connect to HDMI. When I used HCFR to generate the patterns, it measured somewhat different Y values and the dE values were about 2-3 dE different. So I figured I better trust AVS HD 709 since that was playing directly from the Blu-ray of course which is my main (only) source for real material. But now, I wonder if maybe HCFR is more accurate? Sorry if I've asked you this before but if so I do not recall your answer.

Regarding the 5% bump my original way versus leDahu's smoother curve - I suspect his curve may be a bit better as I have read that gamma curves should be kept smooth. However I have not tried it because it will take me a while to recalibrate and I haven't had the chance.

So far I like the 2.4 gamma a lot. But only use it for select movies/shows. For instance I find video games look better at 2.2, and so do some movies. 2.4 definitely makes things more film-like. For instance I have been watching Prison Break with 2.4 and it feels a lot more like film, and I find it a bit more enjoyable that way.

Thanks for very much for this feedback. I'll try Le Dahu's 2.4 gamma curve then.

Re the patterns I'm curious to hear if anyone can spot these. Not that I doubt they are there when using the patched version, just that it may be only on my setup. Make sure you use the patched version of 1.2b, as it's likely they won't be visible on the HDMV 1.2b. I suspect they would be on all the greyscale patterns, as they disappear very progessively as you go up the IRE range. It's just that by 50IRE you can't see them anymore.

I haven't tried using the HCFR patterns because I thought the HDMI connection on the laptop would bring in a lot of variables (some options in the nvidia drivers can have a huge effect on the calibration) so it would be pretty inconclusive. I'm happy with the HDMV version of AVS HD and I will stick to that, as I want like you to calibrate from my BD player anyway.

I don't have getgray, only bluray essentials, but it's the basic version and it's a pain to use as the patterns are not in the right order for HCFR, so I probably won't follow that route. Now that I'm using HDMV I have to concentrate on what's going to make a difference on my display...

What I may do though is rip the HDMV AVS HD disc to my NAS and try measure my calibration from my mediaplayer. It would be interesting to see what I get. My player is a Netgear EVA9150 with an HDMI out, and I play a lot of archived BD / HD content from the network.

I'm struggling at the moment to find the time to do my gamma properly and revise my smpte-c settings. My new rec 709, like the former one, is a bit too red for skin tones for my taste on most live action movies. It's perfect for animation though... I just watched chapter 10 of Kung Fu Panda and with the new gamma it looked amazing! I suspect it would look even better with a 2.4 curve.

I'd just like to get a setup I'm fully happy with and watch 500 hours of films or so before I get the meters out again!
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post #1122 of 1634 Old 09-16-2009, 05:29 AM
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Simple question. How do I check if I have v1.1 without using a laptop/usb cable?

Thanks

Founder | BullsEye Calibration | www.bullseyecal.co.nz
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post #1123 of 1634 Old 09-16-2009, 05:48 AM
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Simple question. How do I check if I have v1.1 without using a laptop/usb cable?

Thanks

I assume you are asking how to check whether you have the latest version of the firmware on your RS20/HD750.

The easiest way to check is to open up the CMS controls and see if the range of controls is from -30 to +30 (for instance, for Red hue), or if the range is -60 to +60. If its -60 to +60, you have the latest version.
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post #1124 of 1634 Old 09-16-2009, 06:08 AM
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Anyone has seen how measures the new Oppo BD83 against PS3 in saturation by AVS HD patched 1.2 disc ??

I'm going to change my source ( PS3 ) with a BD83 and shurely I'll must recalibrate ALL ....
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post #1125 of 1634 Old 09-18-2009, 06:25 PM
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Hi Manni,

I do not know if this is relevant to your problem but I will mention 2 problems I just discovered using my I1D2 meter and Calman just in case they trigger something you might have seen in your setups.

1. Use of 1080p 24f output:
I use get Gray and the HD-DVD version of DVE. I can use 2 players : Toshiba A30 and Pioneer BDP-51FD. What I recently found was that one specific inconsistent situation exists in trying to do a Gray scale calibration out of all sorts of combinations of disks, players and output resolutions.

The one situation that did not match all the others was to use the Toshiba player outputting 1080p at 24f from the get Gray disk. If I set the Toshiba HD player to output 1080p 60f all the cases produced the same gray scales. I can only assume there is a decoder error in the Toshiba that produces this problem (the Pioneer will not output NTSC disks like Get Gray at 1080p 24f). I have not tested the CIE Color behavior, but I would assume similar problems might occur there.

2. H Angle between the I1D2 meter and the screen.
I have proven that my I1D2 produces Gray scale results that are a function of the Horizontal angle the meter makes with a line perpendicular to the screen.

The procedure is supposed to be to to aim the meter somewhat towards the center from the side, and rock the angle till the output of the meter is at a maximum. However I have just found that at this location the gray scale is significantly sensitive to that angle. But, if I turn the meter more towards the center of the screen, say about 5 degrees, the meter ends up with lower output (say 10%) but in a zone where it is insensitive to the final angle I choose. I believe this is the reason why I have been unable to get the same settings for the gray scale in tests run on different but adjacent nights (new meter placement each night).

As I say it may be unrelated but I thought I would report these findings just in case.


By the way, the procedure I use to verify if the incoming HDMI signal to the RS20 has been decoded in the player or the projector is to look for evidence that the incoming signal is indeed RGB. I use the HDMI enhanced mode and then below that I compare the image in Auto with that of the 2 YCb Cr and the 1 RGB modes. Only one of these will look right in addition to the Auto mode. If the Image is not seriously yellow etc. (off colored) that mode is what is coming in and will look the same as the signal displayed in the auto mode.

KT
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post #1126 of 1634 Old 09-19-2009, 01:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTTV Images View Post

Hi Manni,

I do not know if this is relevant to your problem but I will mention 2 problems I just discovered using my I1D2 meter and Calman just in case they trigger something you might have seen in your setups.

1. Use of 1080p 24f output:
I use get Gray and the HD-DVD version of DVE. I can use 2 players : Toshiba A30 and Pioneer BDP-51FD. What I recently found was that one specific inconsistent situation exists in trying to do a Gray scale calibration out of all sorts of combinations of disks, players and output resolutions.

The one situation that did not match all the others was to use the Toshiba player outputting 1080p at 24f from the get Gray disk. If I set the Toshiba HD player to output 1080p 60f all the cases produced the same gray scales. I can only assume there is a decoder error in the Toshiba that produces this problem (the Pioneer will not output NTSC disks like Get Gray at 1080p 24f). I have not tested the CIE Color behavior, but I would assume similar problems might occur there.

2. H Angle between the I1D2 meter and the screen.
I have proven that my I1D2 produces Gray scale results that are a function of the Horizontal angle the meter makes with a line perpendicular to the screen.

The procedure is supposed to be to to aim the meter somewhat towards the center from the side, and rock the angle till the output of the meter is at a maximum. However I have just found that at this location the gray scale is significantly sensitive to that angle. But, if I turn the meter more towards the center of the screen, say about 5 degrees, the meter ends up with lower output (say 10%) but in a zone where it is insensitive to the final angle I choose. I believe this is the reason why I have been unable to get the same settings for the gray scale in tests run on different but adjacent nights (new meter placement each night).

As I say it may be unrelated but I thought I would report these findings just in case.


By the way, the procedure I use to verify if the incoming HDMI signal to the RS20 has been decoded in the player or the projector is to look for evidence that the incoming signal is indeed RGB. I use the HDMI enhanced mode and then below that I compare the image in Auto with that of the 2 YCb Cr and the 1 RGB modes. Only one of these will look right in addition to the Auto mode. If the Image is not seriously yellow etc. (off colored) that mode is what is coming in and will look the same as the signal displayed in the auto mode.

KT

Hi KT,

Thanks for this!

I still haven't had time to get the meters out since my last session...
1) is , it looks like the 24p mode on the Tosh is seriously flawed. Probably unrelated, but I may check to see if I get the discrepency I found between the two disks when I'm not on 24p on the BD-50.
2) is unrelated, although its a confirmed problem on the d2 (one of the reasons I moved to the i11pro). I was tired of not being able to get two identical readings in two sessions. This has been solved by the i1pro, even when I used the d2 trained to it. As long as I use the same disc, I measure the same even if the meter have been moved.

By the way I always center the meter and read right in front from the screen (about 2-3 feet away from the screen). I just make sure I'm not reading the shadow of the meter by maximising Y from a 100% white pattern. As my PJ is in line with the top of my screen, the shadow falls below the meter, so it's not a problem and it solves the issue you've experienced. But it's true the readin cone of the i1pro is narrower than the cone of the d2, so it may not work as well with a d2.

I now (thanks to the excellent advice provided here) use the i1pro facing the screen to take a reference reading, and the d2 stuck to its back on the same tripod facing the PJ (with a diffuser). This is the best setup I've tried till now, as I leave both meters plugged in and I don't have to swap meters or touch the setup during the whole session.
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post #1127 of 1634 Old 09-19-2009, 06:47 AM
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Manni - I finally had a chance to check for that odd pattern you mentioned. I could not see anything unusual - looked like a solid smooth gray at 5% and some others I checked. This was with playback through a PS3.
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post #1128 of 1634 Old 09-19-2009, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Manni - I finally had a chance to check for that odd pattern you mentioned. I could not see anything unusual - looked like a solid smooth gray at 5% and some others I checked. This was with playback through a PS3.

Hi Ric,

Thank a lot for checking this. I may try to see if 24p makes a difference on these patterns as per KT's suggestion.

I'm going to use the HDMV disc exclusively from now on, so hopefully whatever causes this discrepency in my system won't be at play anymore.
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post #1129 of 1634 Old 09-19-2009, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Hi Ric,

Thank a lot for checking this. I may try to see if 24p makes a difference on these patterns as per KT's suggestion.

I'm going to use the HDMV disc exclusively from now on, so hopefully whatever causes this discrepency in my system won't be at play anymore.

Another thing to consider is using the HCFR patterns. Like you, I would rather use patterns off my blu-ray player to be certain I was calibrating exactly to the source.

Unfortunately I seem to have about a 2-3 dE differential between the HCFR and AVS HD patterns, so I have to trust the blu-ray for now.
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post #1130 of 1634 Old 09-19-2009, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Another thing to consider is using the HCFR patterns. Like you, I would rather use patterns off my blu-ray player to be certain I was calibrating exactly to the source.

Unfortunately I seem to have about a 2-3 dE differential between the HCFR and AVS HD patterns, so I have to trust the blu-ray for now.

2-3 dE is the difference I find between the two AVS HD discs... Did you compare the HCFR numbers with the HDMV or the PATCHED version of AVS HD?
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post #1131 of 1634 Old 09-19-2009, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

1) is , it looks like the 24p mode on the Tosh is seriously flawed. Probably unrelated, but I may check to see if I get the discrepency I found between the two disks when I'm not on 24p on the BD-50.

What's the error you see on the Toshibia? With 24p output I measure exactly the same grayscale between the Toshiba and PS3 using the same (DVD) disc. I didn't check color gamut or decoding.
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post #1132 of 1634 Old 09-19-2009, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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What's the error you see on the Toshibia? With 24p output I measure exactly the same grayscale between the Toshiba and PS3 using the same (DVD) disc. I didn't check color gamut or decoding.

I don't have a Toshiba, so I'm afraid you're going to have to ask KT for that (I was just commenting on his post).
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post #1133 of 1634 Old 09-19-2009, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

2-3 dE is the difference I find between the two AVS HD discs... Did you compare the HCFR numbers with the HDMV or the PATCHED version of AVS HD?

No this was just HCFR vs. AVS HD 709 1.2b.

I don't think I can run HDMV in the PS3?

I have the HD DVD of Digital Video Essentials I could compare it to, but alas that introduces an external player (HD DVD player) as a variable so no good.

I also should compare it to GetGray SD disc upconverted from PS3 but this also introduces several variables (upscaling, SD etc).

Ideas for a good game plan from here?
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post #1134 of 1634 Old 09-19-2009, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

No this was just HCFR vs. AVS HD 709 1.2b.

I don't think I can run HDMV in the PS3?

I have the HD DVD of Digital Video Essentials I could compare it to, but alas that introduces an external player (HD DVD player) as a variable so no good.

I also should compare it to GetGray SD disc upconverted from PS3 but this also introduces several variables (upscaling, SD etc).

Ideas for a good game plan from here?

I thought the PS3 could play Blu-Ray? HDMV is blu-ray as far as I can see (I burnt it on a standard BD-RE disc). Do you have a blu-ray burner to try?
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post #1135 of 1634 Old 09-19-2009, 09:55 AM
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I thought the PS3 could play Blu-Ray? HDMV is blu-ray as far as I can see (I burnt it on a standard BD-RE disc). Do you have a blu-ray burner to try?

Oh right, now I remember - that is why I cannot do the HDMV version. I downloaded the patched version and will try a quick comparison between that, 1.2b, and HCFR patterns.

Last time I made the AVS HD 709 disc they were at version 1.2b. I don't recall them having a PATCHED version at that time. What is PATCHED all about and how may it be different than 1.2b?
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post #1136 of 1634 Old 09-19-2009, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Oh right, now I remember - that is why I cannot do the HDMV version. I downloaded the patched version and will try a quick comparison between that, 1.2b, and HCFR patterns.

Last time I made the AVS HD 709 disc they were at version 1.2b. I don't recall them having a PATCHED version at that time. What is PATCHED all about and how may it be different than 1.2b?

I think they had HDMV and PATCHED for 1.2 as I still have them (I think they called the patched version AVCHD). HDMV is to be burnt on a blu-ray (so it's blu-ray to blu-ray) while the patched version is blu-ray on DVD (AVCHD). If you've burnt 1.2 on DVD, chances are you used the patched (AVCHD) version, the only other option is HDDVD.
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post #1137 of 1634 Old 09-19-2009, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

I think they had HDMV and PATCHED for 1.2 as I still have them (I think they called the patched version AVCHD). HDMV is to be burnt on a blu-ray (so it's blu-ray to blu-ray) while the patched version is blu-ray on DVD (AVCHD). If you've burnt 1.2 on DVD, chances are you used the patched (AVCHD) version, the only other option is HDDVD.

From the listing of options it seems they have both an AVCHD and a PATCHED version. AVCHD is described as interlaced menus, PATCHED is described as progressive menus plus additional patterns..

Please remind me again - which version were you seeing that odd pattern on and questioning the most? Was it 1.3 PATCHED?
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post #1138 of 1634 Old 09-19-2009, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

From the listing of options it seems they have both an AVCHD and a PATCHED version. AVCHD is described as interlaced menus, PATCHED is described as progressive menus plus additional patterns..

Please remind me again - which version were you seeing that odd pattern on and questioning the most? Was it 1.3 PATCHED?

Sorry my mistake then. Yes it was on 1.3b Patched that I saw the odd pattern on low IREs windows (nothing on 1.3b HDMV).
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post #1139 of 1634 Old 09-19-2009, 05:36 PM
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What's the error you see on the Toshibia? With 24p output I measure exactly the same grayscale between the Toshiba and PS3 using the same (DVD) disc. I didn't check color gamut or decoding.

I reported a difference in the gray scales when using the Toshiba A30 HD-DVD player in the 24f 1080p output mode. With both the Get Gray and HD- DVD version of DVE my Toshiba player at 24f out produces different gray scale settings than 1080p 60f out (or 480p, 1080i, 1080p 60f outputs on both the Toshiba and my pioneer 51FD HD BD player).

So, in my case I simply can not use the 24f output mode of the Toshiba for any calibration work.

Consider testing the difference between the Toshiba at 24f and 60f out ---that is where I see a difference.

KT
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post #1140 of 1634 Old 09-19-2009, 10:47 PM
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I reported a difference in the gray scales when using the Toshiba A30 HD-DVD player in the 24f 1080p output mode. With both the Get Gray and HD- DVD version of DVE my Toshiba player at 24f out produces different gray scale settings than 1080p 60f out (or 480p, 1080i, 1080p 60f outputs on both the Toshiba and my pioneer 51FD HD BD player).

So, in my case I simply can not use the 24f output mode of the Toshiba for any calibration work.

Consider testing the difference between the Toshiba at 24f and 60f out ---that is where I see a difference.

KT

Hmmm... I would have to test more thoroughly, but I am inclined to believe that, if there's an incorrect offset on the grayscale, it's actually at 60hz. This is based only on verifying that the PS3 was grayscale identical to the 24hz output on my A30. I did it out of curiousity as I had seen some wackiness in the grayscale watching Hollywoodland.
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