Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread (NEW FIRMWARE V1.1) - Page 40 - AVS Forum
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post #1171 of 1634 Old 10-26-2009, 07:22 AM
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Ok - here to solicit some help with an RS25. I'm not necessarily having a problem - but I know that I am not getting to my results in the best way possible.
So I am using an Oppo BDP-83, connected to a Denon 3808, then onto the RS25. I'm using the AVS test disc (%75 windows). When working with the CMS in the RS25, I am running out of room on yellow saturation. In order to compensate for this I'm having to dial my "Color" setting way back - then compensate for this in the CMS. (I am in "Natural" setting and have already done grayscale and gamma at this point). My results are good (see below), but I know from speaking with Jason Turk and others, that I should not have to do this. Here are my results:


At first I thought I was using Calman incorrectly, but I have confirmed these results using HFCR and Chromapure - if I set Color correctly, I run out of room on yellow. The only way to get yellow good, is to dial back the color, compensate for this in the CMS for each other color - then I get enough room to get the yellow in line.

At this point, I know that something in my video chain must be doing something. It is almost like right off the bat, I'm displaying an image in which the color setting is too high. I know that the Oppo has its own "color" control - but I never once touched this and the default should be "0". It didn't occur to me to check whether it wasn't until I was brushing my teeth last night. Originally I had the color space set to 4:2:2 but switched it to Auto last night to see if this helped. While this did appear to change the levels - it didn't change the fact that i'm maxing out yellow. I now have the color space on the Oppo set to Auto (which I think means it goes to 4:4:4) and source direct is "ON". I don't think that the Denon should be doing anything - but maybe it is?

Any thoughts?
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post #1172 of 1634 Old 10-26-2009, 08:41 AM
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vigga,

have you tried using the custom1(2,3) modes instead of "natural" for calibration?

I have noticed that using the same custom CMS setting for "natural" and custom 1 looks different. Switching between these two picture modes, especially red looks more saturated.

Out of interest, what are your saturation/brightness settings for Red?
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post #1173 of 1634 Old 10-26-2009, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigga View Post

...... When working with the CMS in the RS25, I am running out of room on yellow saturation. In order to compensate for this I'm having to dial my "Color" setting way back - then compensate for this in the CMS. (I am in "Natural" setting and have already done grayscale and gamma at this point). ..........

Any thoughts?

We had same problems here in setting the RS25 for our shootout contest demo ...
We were too in Natural but connect to a PS3 as source with AVS HD disc 1.2 patched version.
We were lucky because -60 was just just enough in our chain/room/screen to put the things in work and measure correctly But what I thought was that in some chain it could be an issue and obliged to change the start preset ...
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post #1174 of 1634 Old 10-26-2009, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lozoppo View Post

vigga,

have you tried using the custom1(2,3) modes instead of "natural" for calibration?

I have noticed that using the same custom CMS setting for "natural" and custom 1 looks different. Switching between these two picture modes, especially red looks more saturated.

Out of interest, what are your saturation/brightness settings for Red?

That could certainly be it! Jason (Turk) just emailed me that he is always in User1 vs Natural - I don't know why it didn't occur to me to just change to the User setting. My red settings are:
43, -44, 31
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post #1175 of 1634 Old 10-26-2009, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highlander_AVS View Post

We had same problems here in setting the RS25 for our shootout contest demo ...
We were too in Natural but connect to a PS3 as source with AVS HD disc 1.2 patched version.
We were lucky because -60 was just just enough in our chain/room/screen to put the things in work and measure correctly But what I thought was that in some chain it could be an issue and obliged to change the start preset ...

I mean, I am able to pull things in by playing with "Color" in the Natural setting to dE of <1. I'll try again in User1 tonight. According to Jason, Cyan comes close, but he never pegs it - Good to at least know that I am not the only one who has seen this. I think changing the pre-set that i'm starting with will make things much more manageable -
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post #1176 of 1634 Old 10-26-2009, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigga View Post

I mean, I am able to pull things in by playing with "Color" in the Natural setting to dE of <1. I'll try again in User1 tonight. According to Jason, Cyan comes close, but he never pegs it -

Yes, understand.
Indeed we were almost lucky with our chain to don't touch "Color" leaving it to default zero with Natural preset and yellow to -60 was just just enough
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post #1177 of 1634 Old 10-26-2009, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigga View Post

I mean, I am able to pull things in by playing with "Color" in the Natural setting to dE of <1. I'll try again in User1 tonight. According to Jason, Cyan comes close, but he never pegs it - Good to at least know that I am not the only one who has seen this. I think changing the pre-set that i'm starting with will make things much more manageable -

Actually I do peg it, but, it takes the most amount of adjustment (out of +/- 60 I am in the 50's for both saturation and luminance.
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post #1178 of 1634 Old 10-26-2009, 10:57 AM
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Yes - in Natural for us as well, the Color needed very little adjustment.
Playing with the "color" setting for me allowed me to get yellow basically perfect. Without messing with the "color" I got the yellow certainly close enough (dE was around 1.5 I think with the dColor the highest error) at -60 for saturation.
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post #1179 of 1634 Old 10-26-2009, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

Actually I do peg it, but, it takes the most amount of adjustment (out of +/- 60 I am in the 50's for both saturation and luminance.

Are you referring to the RS25 or RS20?

On a related note, do the CMS settings from the RS20 seem to apply to the RS25 or does the processing seem different enough in that the RS25 needs its own numbers?
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post #1180 of 1634 Old 10-26-2009, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

Actually I do peg it, but, it takes the most amount of adjustment (out of +/- 60 I am in the 50's for both saturation and luminance.

Maybe my termination was incorrect - by pegging I was referring to running out of room on the control (say -60 for Yellow Saturation) -
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post #1181 of 1634 Old 10-26-2009, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Are you referring to the RS25 or RS20?

On a related note, do the CMS settings from the RS20 seem to apply to the RS25 or does the processing seem different enough in that the RS25 needs its own numbers?

I'm not sure if you're talking about settings specifically - unit to unit, the RS20's have been variable:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post17325962
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post #1182 of 1634 Old 10-26-2009, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigga View Post

I'm not sure if you're talking about settings specifically - unit to unit, the RS20's have been variable:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post17325962

To a certain extent they have been variable, however in some cases one users settings seem to produce excellent results in another unit. For instance there are many folks using my CMS settings that report excellent results. You can find a link to my settings in the first post of this thread. If you try it out please let us know how you think it looks. You have an RS25, correct?
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post #1183 of 1634 Old 10-26-2009, 12:33 PM
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yes - RS25.
I think the confusion about which unit (20 v 25) people are talking about in this last set of discussions suggests that there may, in fact, be a benefit to spinning off a separate thread for discussions of CMS calibration in the RS25.

I will plug your settings into my RS25 and take some measurements and post them here to let people know how they have translated -
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post #1184 of 1634 Old 10-26-2009, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigga View Post

yes - RS25.
I think the confusion about which unit (20 v 25) people are talking about in this last set of discussions suggests that there may, in fact, be a benefit to spinning off a separate thread for discussions of CMS calibration in the RS25.

I can see your point in that. That is actually the reason I asked. If it turns out that the CMS settings for the RS20 are considerably different than the RS25 then the calibration may prove different enough. Either that or folks can just be sure to mention whether they are talking about the 20 vs 25 vs 35.

Quote:


I will plug your settings into my RS25 and take some measurements and post them here to let people know how they have translated -

Sounds good. A quick way to check it is to put one set of CMS settings into one preset, then in another preset use THX mode. Then go back and forth with various material. If my CMS settings are usable on the RS25, then you should see the A/B results being close but with my settings it should look a bit more "pure" and saturated (not because mine are over saturated, but because THX tends to be under saturated, at least on the RS25). Let us know how it goes.
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post #1185 of 1634 Old 10-26-2009, 01:26 PM
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I can just plug them in and take some measurements and let everyone know. I think THX has still has incorrect grayscale and I have no need to dig around the service menu to get my calibrated numbers to be the grayscale numbers for THX.

I continue to maintain that a second thread is warranted. Jason has stated that in the RS25's that he has calibrated the grayscale and CMS numbers are "all over the board" (his exact words) - suggesting that settings may not work. I don't know if the RS20 was the same as the RS25 in that respect.
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post #1186 of 1634 Old 10-26-2009, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigga View Post

I can just plug them in and take some measurements and let everyone know. I think THX has still has incorrect grayscale and I have no need to dig around the service menu to get my calibrated numbers to be the grayscale numbers for THX.

I continue to maintain that a second thread is warranted. Jason has stated that in the RS25's that he has calibrated the grayscale and CMS numbers are "all over the board" (his exact words) - suggesting that settings may not work. I don't know if the RS20 was the same as the RS25 in that respect.

The CMS settings and grayscale settings are two different things as you know. Grayscale will be all over the board, even RS25 vs RS25. However the CMS is different. While two RS20s can require totally different gain/offsets and custom gamma controls to get the grayscale right, the same two machines can use the same CMS settings with good results. At least that is what has been reported by dozens of folks that have shared my and other user's CMS settings. YMMV. Let us know how it goes.

Also I should mention that since you have equipement and know-how for CMS you certainly will get the most accurate results by dialing it in on your own. However one of the CMS settings provided by members such as mine may serve as a good starting place for tweaking.
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post #1187 of 1634 Old 10-26-2009, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

While two RS20s can require totally different gain/offsets and custom gamma controls to get the grayscale right, the same two machines can use the same CMS settings with good results. At least that is what has been reported by dozens of folks that have shared my and other user's CMS settings. YMMV. Let us know how it goes.

The only reason that I assumed that this might not be the case is that Jason (who has seen multiple RS25) specifically stated that both grayscale and CMS numbers had been inconsistent unit to unit. In the past I had good results with others CMS settings from a Radiance/RS1 - so i certainly know it can work - it was just given what had been stated in the RS25 owner forum by the only person I know who has thus far calibrated multiple units, I thought that might not be the case here.
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post #1188 of 1634 Old 10-26-2009, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigga View Post

The only reason that I assumed that this might not be the case is that Jason (who has seen multiple RS25) specifically stated that both grayscale and CMS numbers had been inconsistent unit to unit. In the past I had good results with others CMS settings from a Radiance/RS1 - so i certainly know it can work - it was just given what had been stated in the owners by the only person I know who had seen multiple units, I thought that might not be the case here.

It seems somewhat of a mixed bag. Some users have reported superb results using other's CMS settings. Other users not so much. We do not know what the common denominator is on those that match well.
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post #1189 of 1634 Old 10-28-2009, 06:11 PM
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This is my first set of readings with the RS20 I just got . It has 400hrs on it. Is my meter in need of re-calibration OR is this unit super off in the grey scale?? I am hoping there are hints to my i1pros functionality by the readings...anyone??

THX mode, Iris -6 no tweaking.




PS Ill make this a smaller file after a few eyes get on it
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post #1190 of 1634 Old 10-28-2009, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W3bbY View Post

This is my first set of readings with the RS20 I just got . It has 400hrs on it. Is my meter in need of re-calibration OR is this unit super off in the grey scale?? I am hoping there are hints to my i1pros functionality by the readings...anyone??

THX mode, Iris -6 no tweaking.

PS Ill make this a smaller file after a few eyes get on it

Lee - put on a black and white movie. Do the whites look nice and clean, or tainted?
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post #1191 of 1634 Old 10-28-2009, 09:07 PM
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Someone asked a few days ago whether anyone experienced their Grid test pattern disappearing from the menu after applying the firmware update. Just a quick line to report back that I did double check and my unit does still display the grid pattern (among the test patterns) post firmware update.
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post #1192 of 1634 Old 10-28-2009, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Lee - put on a black and white movie. Do the whites look nice and clean, or tainted?

I will do that tomorrow. BUT I did notice the 100% white window pattern looked a bit yellowish. Man I hope its my meter!
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post #1193 of 1634 Old 10-28-2009, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W3bbY View Post

I will do that tomorrow. BUT I did notice the 100% white window pattern looked a bit yellowish. Man I hope its my meter!

Judging from how far off blue looked to be in your report I would think the result would look significantly worse than "a bit yellowish" if that's really what it was measuring. What I also find odd is that in the other mode the measured grayscale looked pretty good.
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post #1194 of 1634 Old 10-29-2009, 01:55 AM
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I am going to be calibrating a 950 shortly, but this question should be valid here.

I have fiddled a lot with the settings on various modes while waiting for my Calman spyder to arrive. If I want to put everything back as it was when new, is it safe to use the "factory reset" option in the service menu? I presume this will just put all user settings back to default, and not mess up anything calibration wise that was done in the factory.
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post #1195 of 1634 Old 10-29-2009, 01:13 PM
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Thanks for the update on the grid pattern. I wonder where mine went? Anybody know how I can get it back?
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post #1196 of 1634 Old 10-29-2009, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Judging from how far off blue looked to be in your report I would think the result would look significantly worse than "a bit yellowish" if that's really what it was measuring. What I also find odd is that in the other mode the measured grayscale looked pretty good.

Its has a yellow hue on B&W films. Its not extreme but oh it was there. How can this be with Thx mode for me? I am SUPER confused. My 1ipro passed diagnostics SO even if that was a bit off I don't think I would get such dramatic readings. Any suggestions/ ideas?

Also I checked my pioneer plasmas greyscale and it reading 6500k and looks it...so I think I have ruled out my meter being off. ;(
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post #1197 of 1634 Old 10-29-2009, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kensmith48 View Post

lovingdvd
Thanks for the update on the grid pattern. I wonder where mine went? Anybody know how I can get it back?

Sounds very odd that it is missing. Walk me through this step by step - what exactly are you doing to pull up the patterns, what are you doing to cycle through the patterns, and which patterns do you get and in what order?
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post #1198 of 1634 Old 10-30-2009, 07:49 AM
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Going to pick up a HD750 tomorrow with 178 lamp hours. The PJ is not ISF calibrated. My cal. expert has no time for a cal. until december. If I want to watch some movies until then, is THX the best to pick for the time-beeing?
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post #1199 of 1634 Old 10-30-2009, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

Going to pick up a HD750 tomorrow with 178 lamp hours. The PJ is not ISF calibrated. My cal. expert has no time for a cal. until december. If I want to watch some movies until then, is THX the best to pick for the time-beeing?

Under the circumstances I would say "good enough". Just realize that any color error (perhaps something slight) is easily correctable and that colors may be a tad undersaturated. Also your gamma most likely will be under 2.2 due to the drift issue, so your picture will likely pick up some 3D/depth to it post-calibration (the amount of this improvement depends on how far the gamma has drifted - at 180 hours I'd guess you may be somewhere around 2.12 - 2.15).

Also note that you will not be able to use the sharpness (my pref set at 10) and detail enhance (my pref set at 30-35) when in THX mode which helps make the picture a bit sharper and perceived resolution higher IMO.
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post #1200 of 1634 Old 10-30-2009, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W3bbY View Post

Its has a yellow hue on B&W films. Its not extreme but oh it was there. How can this be with Thx mode for me? I am SUPER confused.

Your greyscale is way off. Look at those dEs. The good news is that it is easy to fix. You can fix this, even in THX mode, using the service menu trick.

How can it be so off? Your guess is as good as mine. Maybe the prior owner did a little calibration by eye?

Affable Nitwit
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