Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread (NEW FIRMWARE V1.1) - Page 43 - AVS Forum
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post #1261 of 1634 Old 11-16-2009, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Sorry to drop in again on the HD750 calibration thread (I own a HD350 ), but I remember reading about the gamma changing/drifting as the lamp ages. What was the time scale for this and what would be the effect on the image?

You have to calibrate grayscale quite often as the lamp ages if you are determined to have color temp at D65. It is not the same as gamma drift, which you will see in luminance diagram, especially when you compare gammas of primaries. It will take quite a while for them to drift apart from each other, but when they do, afaik, you will need to calibrate gammas of primaries separately to have best possible picture quality.

EDIT: Also, the ill effects of gamma drift hardly affect deep blacks.
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post #1262 of 1634 Old 11-16-2009, 05:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Thanks for the reply Manni, I didn't expect to leave the PJ untouched for the next 1800 hours or so, but I'm surprised that I seem to have noticed a change within perhaps 50-60 hours.

Maybe my lamp is still settling in (or about to go completely ). So far I've done it at 30 hours (got impatient when it was new), then started again around 180 hours. I forgot to set up my 'Bat Tent' on that attempt so that took a while afterwards perhaps 210 hours before I really got chance to do it properly, so far as my I1-LT allows.

It's like I've lost those great blacks that attracted me to this PJ in the first place, which is troubling me. Maybe setting up my new lens has made me analyse the picture too much. Hopefully a recal will put everything right again.

Just an idea: did you check you had not got the wrong HDMI settings, i.e. set for standard when it should be on enhanced, either on the source or on the PJ?If your black levels are that bad, it may be an option. I don't think gamma would drift that much.
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post #1263 of 1634 Old 11-16-2009, 07:38 AM
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Looking for some advice guys…..

My bulb now has roughly 900 hours on it. I use the lamp on low due to the projector’s location, which is directly over my head. Iris is wide open. I use a Firehawk screen (2.35 – 96” wide). The projector is 12’ from the screen. I originally bought the Firehawk because I wanted to be able to have some ambient light in the room from time to time. I find that I rarely do this, but it is nice to be able to when the need arises. My room is completely light controlled and painted a very dark satin garnet red.

Last week the image just looked dark to me. I couldn’t make out shadow detail. I had this urge to grab the remote and bump up brightness. I drug the meter and laptop out and ran through grey scale, gamma and gamut. The grey scale had drifted considerably, so I zeroed everything out and started fresh. After a few hours, grey scale was looking ruler flat from 15 – 95. I changed my gamma curve this time with the handy gamma spread sheet. Gamma starts at 2.0 and steps up to 2.3 by 40 IRE then hits 2.5 at 60 IRE and stays there to 100.

I was pretty darn pleased with all that, for a couple days. Now I still have an urge to grab that remote and bump up brightness. Dark things in dark or mixed bright / dark scenes are just too damn dark. If someone is talking in a hallway, half that person’s face is visible, but the side of the face facing the shadows is complete black.

I’m toying with the idea of using the lamp in high mode, then re-calibrating. The projector noise will irritated the hell out of me, but I don’t see any options at this point. I’m also toying with the idea of calling Stewart and buying a different screen material to snap into my frame, but that’s a fair amount of coin to conduct an experiment.

Before I go through the trouble of re-calibrating with the lamp in high, I figured I’d ask you all for some ideas or tips.
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post #1264 of 1634 Old 11-16-2009, 08:20 AM
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The gamma drift shouldn't affect your black levels though. What you are describing is a loss of contrast ratio. It sounds like you are saying the black level is getting brighter while the whites are coming down (as I suspect your whites aren't getting brighter with age). This sounds really wrong. Do you have a light meter you can use to measure contrast ratio?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #1265 of 1634 Old 11-16-2009, 09:56 AM
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I use an i1Pro. Can I measure CR with that? I've never been curious enough to try.

I'm not sure I follow you though. My blacks are getting brighter? I'm having trouble seeing lighter (brighter) things in an overall dark sceen.
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post #1266 of 1634 Old 11-16-2009, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Just an idea: did you check you had not got the wrong HDMI settings, i.e. set for standard when it should be on enhanced, either on the source or on the PJ?If your black levels are that bad, it may be an option. I don't think gamma would drift that much.

I've set the HDMI to standard (rather than Auto) last time I recalibrated and set everything up using it in this mode...I'll double check, but I'm 99% sure it hasn't changed. I'll redo the calibration and see where everything falls before and after (I always seem to overwrite the 'before' results in HFCR ).

It sounds more like mdrew has a lamp that is going dim, hence the need/desire to bump up the brightness. Either that or he just doesn't like the effect of having a high gamma setting (I found it made the image darker than I was used to, though I was using a 'flat' 2.2 or 2.3 myself. Anything higher and it seemed too dark for my taste).

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #1267 of 1634 Old 11-16-2009, 10:40 AM
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Hi mdrew,

You can't use the i1Pro to measure CR. On the blacks getting brighter comment, I was directing my comments to Kelvin. In your case, I think the issue is too dim an image to allow you to see the shadow detail. A new bulb should help or a switch to high lamp. I think the firehawk was recently measured as having little to negative gain. I wonder what kind of ftl you are getting. With a gamma around 2 down low, you should have no issues making out shadow detail given a bright enough image.

The gamma drift issue referred to in the past deals with the gamma decreasing over time, which would tend to make the shadow details more visible and result in less black crush. The gamma drift should also not result in a loss of on/off contrast ratio or there is something more sinister at work.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #1268 of 1634 Old 11-16-2009, 02:17 PM
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Thank you. I supose I should just bump the lamp to high, recalibrate and live with the projector noise.

For clarification, my gamma did not drift. The curve was very close to my last round with the meter. My grey scale is what drifted, which I would expect as the bulb output degrades over time.
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post #1269 of 1634 Old 11-16-2009, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdrew View Post

Thank you. I supose I should just bump the lamp to high, recalibrate and live with the projector noise.

For clarification, my gamma did not drift. The curve was very close to my last round with the meter. My grey scale is what drifted, which I would expect as the bulb output degrades over time.

How many hours do you have on the bulb? If using HCFR, can you post your .chc file? If not, can you post a gamma graph (not the curved luminance graph but rather the linear gamma graph) with R,G,B plotted separately?
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post #1270 of 1634 Old 11-16-2009, 05:06 PM
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I use Calman. I think I can export PFD and post them. Will try tomorrow.
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post #1271 of 1634 Old 11-16-2009, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdrew View Post

Looking for some advice guys..

My bulb now has roughly 900 hours on it. ...

Before I go through the trouble of re-calibrating with the lamp in high, I figured I'd ask you all for some ideas or tips.

Why don't you consider buying a new bulb?
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post #1272 of 1634 Old 11-17-2009, 12:30 PM
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I just bought a new JVC projector - actually the 950 - but my question should be the same for the 750. For optimal ceiling placement -- what height should the projector be in relation to my screen. For my old JVC - it was the top of the lens equal to the top of the screen. Is it the same for the 750/950?
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post #1273 of 1634 Old 11-17-2009, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Tywoniak View Post

I just bought a new JVC projector - actually the 950 - but my question should be the same for the 750. For optimal ceiling placement -- what height should the projector be in relation to my screen. For my old JVC - it was the top of the lens equal to the top of the screen. Is it the same for the 750/950?

I'd like to know this also..
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post #1274 of 1634 Old 11-17-2009, 01:47 PM
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I'm not sure there is an optimal spot per se. Dead center has the light passing straight through the middle of the lens. You can use the lens shift to go up or down, left or right a certain percentage of screen height or width. ANSI CR should improve as you use lens shift to move away from screen center. Ha ing the lens even with the top of the screen should be fine.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #1275 of 1634 Old 11-17-2009, 07:47 PM
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Hi,

I have been asked if I could post a picture of the pink vertical band that has developed on my HD 750. I think you will be able to notice the band.....hard picture to take.


Rick
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post #1276 of 1634 Old 11-18-2009, 01:50 PM
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Well I solved the pink band issue on my HD750.........My HD950 should be here in a couple of days.

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post #1277 of 1634 Old 11-18-2009, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickS View Post

Well I solved the pink band issue on my HD750.........My HD950 should be here in a couple of days.

Here is mine, its slightly different and only visible on very light (e.g. white backgrounds). Is your banding visible on coloured backgrounds?
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Founder | BullsEye Calibration | www.bullseyecal.co.nz
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post #1278 of 1634 Old 11-19-2009, 08:06 AM
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Hi,
Yeah....I see it most of the time now. I did zoom out a little bit to put the pink band onto the black velvet curtains, which helped. The HD750 is going to JVC for warranty repair then my dealer is taking it back on trade for the HD950.That way I won't be without a projector for any of the hockey games.

Rick
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post #1279 of 1634 Old 11-20-2009, 02:27 AM
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I have a confession to make regarding my 'flat' looking image, that I'd put down to the lamp causing some changes to the greyscale. In fact it was me that caused the changes to the greyscale.

I had changed the settings on my Lumagen to accomodate using vertical stretch for my new lens. In doing this I had used a spare memory, which I have realised doesn't have my corrections for the greyscale, so I expect that my greyscale is far from flat (compared to the 'corrected' memory). As this only occured to me this morning, I haven't had chance to check it fully, but I'll report back later once I get chance to try it. I was so absorbed with setting up the lens for optimum sharpness, etc that I'd overlooked this setting. I hope I can quickly copy the 11 point greyscale values across to the memory I'm now using to put me back where I was before.

Thanks for the various helpful suggestions....it seems I'm not worthy of them though.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #1280 of 1634 Old 11-20-2009, 03:55 AM
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You are worthy. Something like that is bound to happen to everyone with number of devices having bunch of different modes. Come to think of it, what if every device in video chain would have an option of showing their settings at the point when HDMI connection is estabilished?
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post #1281 of 1634 Old 11-20-2009, 05:11 AM
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Thanks Karrih....glad I found out what it was though, despite my embarrassment.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #1282 of 1634 Old 11-20-2009, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigga View Post

Yes - in Natural for us as well, the Color needed very little adjustment.
Playing with the "color" setting for me allowed me to get yellow basically perfect. Without messing with the "color" I got the yellow certainly close enough (dE was around 1.5 I think with the dColor the highest error) at -60 for saturation.

Just out of curiosity, what is wrong with adjusting the Color setting if in the end you get all of your values where you want them?
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post #1283 of 1634 Old 11-20-2009, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Thanks Karrih....glad I found out what it was though, despite my embarrassment.

Don't be embarrassed, it happens all the time, it's just that few of us would actually 'fess up!

Glad you got it sorted.
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post #1284 of 1634 Old 11-20-2009, 04:06 PM
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Cheers Manni, I haven't had chance to try it out as we've got visitors this weekend. However my OH is away overnight later next week, so I can do a full recalibration check without any hassle....hopefully have time to watch a film afterwards too, if I don't faff about too long.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #1285 of 1634 Old 11-21-2009, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickS View Post

Hi,

I have been asked if I could post a picture of the pink vertical band that has developed on my HD 750. I think you will be able to notice the band.....hard picture to take.


Just received my new HD750 after I seen the same issues. It was the "optic"! Now way to solve this problem my HD705 was swapped by a new one!!

I get this problems after 800 hours. How many of you has this problem?

(BTW: How can I check the firmware version 1.1 on my JVC? I forgot this)
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post #1286 of 1634 Old 11-21-2009, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepardos View Post

Just received my new HD750 after I seen the same issues. It was the "optic"! Now way to solve this problem my HD705 was swapped by a new one!!

I get this problems after 800 hours. How many of you has this problem?

(BTW: How can I check the firmware version 1.1 on my JVC? I forgot this)

you can see the software version in the service menu. i can't remember exactly, but i think it's Up, Down, Left, Right, Enter . . . very fast keypresses required.
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post #1287 of 1634 Old 11-21-2009, 10:24 PM
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The easiest way is to go to the CMS. If the range is -30 to +30 it is version 1.0
If it is version 1.1 the range will be -60 to + 60
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post #1288 of 1634 Old 11-23-2009, 06:34 AM
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Hi Experts,

I just try to catch up all the calibration working with my replaced HD750.

1.) 75% Saturation Locations

If I use the 75% pattern for primary's and secondary's, what are my targets?

75% Saturation Locations

x y
Red 0,5582 0,3298
Green 0,3032 0,5323
Blue 0,1907 0,1273
Yellow 0,3927 0,4612
Cyan 0,2466 0,3288
Magenta 0,3189 0,1979
White 0,3127 0,3290

or

100% Saturation Locations

x y Relative to 100% Y
Red 0,6400 0,3300 0,213
Green 0,3000 0,6000 0,715
Blue 0,1500 0,0600 0,072
Yellow 0,4193 0,5053 0,928
Cyan 0,2246 0,3287 0,787
Magenta 0,3209 0,1542 0,285
White 0,3127 0,3290 1,000

maybe a dump question but I can't remember anymore

2.) REC601

For REC709 i use the fantastic spreetsheet: Gamut, Saturation, Brightness, dE Chart.zip. What I miss is a similar tool for REC601. Did somebody know's where I can find this?

Thanks
Cheers
Shepardos
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post #1289 of 1634 Old 11-24-2009, 12:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepardos View Post

Hi Experts,

I just try to catch up all the calibration working with my replaced HD750.

1.) 75% Saturation Locations

If I use the 75% pattern for primary's and secondary's, what are my targets?

75% Saturation Locations
Hi Shephardos,

1) targets are the same for x,y. Just enter the Y for white (see below), and you'll get your target for primaries and secundaries.

2) use GregR's display calibration calculator. Link in the first post (calibration tips). It allows you to display your targets for REC-709, SMPTE-C and REC-601. Great tool!

PS: just re-read your question, I think you mean using the 75% stimulus patterns, you can measure 75% sat but I'm not sure I can see the point of calibrating at 75% sat. Apologies if I'm mistaken, I'm sure I'll get corrected.

x y
Red 0,5582 0,3298
Green 0,3032 0,5323
Blue 0,1907 0,1273
Yellow 0,3927 0,4612
Cyan 0,2466 0,3288
Magenta 0,3189 0,1979
White 0,3127 0,3290

or

100% Saturation Locations

x y Relative to 100% Y
Red 0,6400 0,3300 0,213
Green 0,3000 0,6000 0,715
Blue 0,1500 0,0600 0,072
Yellow 0,4193 0,5053 0,928
Cyan 0,2246 0,3287 0,787
Magenta 0,3209 0,1542 0,285
White 0,3127 0,3290 1,000

maybe a dump question but I can't remember anymore

2.) REC601

For REC709 i use the fantastic spreetsheet: Gamut, Saturation, Brightness, dE Chart.zip. What I miss is a similar tool for REC601. Did somebody know's where I can find this?

Thanks
Cheers
Shepardos
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post #1290 of 1634 Old 11-24-2009, 02:01 AM
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Are people using full fields or windows to calibrate?

The recommendation with devices like plasmas has been windows to prevent the APL circuit affecting the image (decreases luminance to limit power)

However, LCoS devices are not really affected by whether a screen is all white or part of it white in the same way.

I had a faulty enhanced Spyder from Spectracal which is now replaced. The i1 D2 I tried while waiting gave me a fairly neutral greyscale but very slightly pinkish when viewed on a ramp. The replacement Spyder, calibrated with windows gave me a fairly neutral greyscale but slightly greenish!

Then just for the hell of it, I tried using full fields instead. And that has now pretty much eliminated the greenish cast.

i suspect one of two things

1) The field of view of the Spyder 3 is very wide (it has a built-in diffuser) and therefore may be seeing beyond the window at 10" distance and being influenced by the dark surroundings. Especially for smaller screen sizes. My screen is 78" diagonal only.

2) The colour temperature does vary slightly depending on the image being shown (window or field), and as the grey ramp is a full field image, calibrating for full fields makes that particular test screen look right.

Anyway, just thought I would share my findings.

Interestingly the primaries and secondaries measure very close no matter whether window or field. Not 100% the same...but I am talking one click here or there on the sliders..and some colours are untouched.
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