Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread (NEW FIRMWARE V1.1) - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 02:51 PM
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Filters on the own maybe, but using a combination of (imperfect) colour meter, test screens, filters and eyes you can do better than an inprecise colour meter on it's own.
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post #242 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 03:02 PM
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Here are my "clueless tweaking to make i1LT happy" results for this evening. I promise to read dummies guide later. Gamma was 2.3

R 16,-27, 12
Y 6, -48, 37
G 5, -45, 39
C 2, -49, 39
B 36, -18, 4
M 1, -30, 15

HCFR "primary and secondary colors" table currently looks like this

r g b y c m w
0.640 0.301 0.149 0.419 0.224 0.321 0.313
0.327 0.600 0.064 0.506 0.332 0.152 0.329
7.891 27.655 2.811 32.328 28.479 9.918 36.990
2.3 2.6 2.1 3.1 2.4 1.9
0.003 0.001 0.004 0.001 0.003 0.002
+0.3 % +4.5 % +5.3 % -5.8 % -2.2 % -5.9 %

I am slightly surprised that the end result looks ok with real material too, although I haven't done much viewing yet. It will be interesting to see what results I get when I measure this tomorrow. If I get the same results I guess I could tweak Y's little more.
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post #243 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 03:11 PM
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KT, I think there is a fair bit of variance between projectors but nowhere near as much as you get with grey scale where the lamp has a huge influence. Since I know my colour meter isn't accurate I used Manni's CMS settings as a starting point. I believe I'm a pretty good judge of hue. Ramps and filters help dial in saturation and brightness. Manni, has offered to lend me his i1pro at some point so I'll be able to see exactly how far I'm off. In any case I only take rec 709 as a point of reference, I think it's possible to get a few percent extra performance from the display by not follwoing it ridgedly (all IMO of course).
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post #244 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffY View Post

Filters on the own maybe, but using a combination of (imperfect) colour meter, test screens, filters and eyes you can do better than an inprecise colour meter on it's own.

All filters do is give you a visual cue about how to set the brightness of the primaries and the hues of the secondaries. They might have some marginal value with secondary hues on some displays, but even inexpensive colorimeters are quite accurate in their measurement of color brightness.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
Springfield, MO

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post #245 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

All filters do is give you a visual cue about how to set the brightness of the primaries and the hues of the secondaries. They might have some marginal value with secondary hues on some displays, but even inexpensive colorimeters are quite accurate in their measurement of color brightness.

My Spyder 3 is massively off on blue brightness readings.
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post #246 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 04:45 PM
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Holy Moly! Just did the upgrade, successfully, but how THENSE I get with these things. One problem is that I'm a Mac guy, and had to borrow my wife's PC, with which I'm not familiar.

But HELP: I've forgotten how to switch the Color Temp in THX mode to User 1, and can't find the reference. (I know one has to go into the User Menu, and do remember how to do that!) TIA, Bill

Never Mind: I got it (by trial and error!)
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post #247 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

That's what I use. It works well, even into the low IRE's.

How does the Chroma 5 measure THX? Does it show results similar to the i1Pro?

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #248 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 05:06 PM
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Do we have a working Link to Gregr's Spreadsheet ? Can't find it here and I thought he posted it on the Accupel Site but can't find it there either .

Thanks in advance,

Scott....................

"Home Theatre is a Journey , not a Destination "
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post #249 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_R_K View Post

Do we have a working Link to Gregr's Spreadsheet ? Can't find it here and I thought he posted it on the Accupel Site but can't find it there either .

Thanks in advance,

Scott....................



Go to this link http://www.accupel.com then click on the HDG-4000 Manuals and scroll down to bottom of page to the display calibration calculator.
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post #250 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 07:13 PM
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I also have to thank whoever it was above who suggested to download the FW on Firefox rather than IE. I first tried with IE, and no go; but it went straight through when I used FF.
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post #251 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

Yes, there is a 5% error from one dE calculation to the other, but the overall difference in dE is only 0.2 at worst case from one calculation to the next.

OK, for everyone that was bothered by the 0.1-0.2 dE differences between the various spreadsheets and calculators, I increased the internal precision of the calculations in the Display Calibration Calculator to 16 decimal places !!! That should be accurate enough for government work and keep everyone happy! The new PC and Mac versions (v1.24) are now posted at www.accupel.com under HDG-4000 Manuals on the left side of the page. (That's either to encourage you to download the HDG-4000 manual and decide that you can't live without one - or I was too lazy to create a separate page for the calculators - you decide.)

I plugged in the data examples in the spreadsheet that Tom posted earlier today in this thread, and you will find there is still a 0.1 dE rounding difference in some dE calculations. So before anyone has a panic attack over an invisible to see 0.1 dE difference, the reason is that Tom put in x,y values for the standard Yellow, Cyan, and Magenta colors that were truncated to 4 decimal places. My calculator actually calculates those values internally to 16 decimal places now, and that is enough to sometimes show a 0.1 dE round-off error in Tom's spreadsheet. Shame on you Tom !!! I put 5 decimal place x,y values in Tom's spreadsheet, and then it agrees with my calculator for all the examples I tried.

So that's it. I just hated to see everyone so upset by those 0.1, 0.2 dE calculated differences.

Greg Rogers
Video Engineer/Product Designer

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post #252 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 09:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

So that's it. I just hated to see everyone so upset by those 0.1, 0.2 dE calculated differences.

It wasn't everyone, and I wasn't upset, just curious to understand the differences.

Now I'm also ashamed you have spent so much time on this.

I guess next time I'll make it clearer it's about the pursuit of knowledge rather than criticism, which it wasn't.

Thanks, and sorry.
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post #253 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

It wasn't everyone, and I wasn't upset, just curious to understand the differences.

Now I'm also ashamed you have spent so much time on this.

I guess next time I'll make it clearer it's about the pursuit of knowledge rather than criticism, which it wasn't.

Thanks, and sorry.

Whoops, don't be sorry. I was just joking around. Now I feel bad

Greg Rogers
Video Engineer/Product Designer

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post #254 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

Whoops, don't be sorry. I was just joking around. Now I feel bad

No, no, I owe you a drink
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post #255 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 09:57 PM
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can someone please tell me which cable from new egg to use, (is it usb to rs 232?) if yes which one? also they all seem to be wrong male/female wise. Please help with actual firmware steps. THX
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post #256 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by frohlir944 View Post

can someone please tell me which cable from new egg to use, (is it usb to rs 232?) if yes which one? also they all seem to be wrong male/female wise. Please help with actual firmware steps. THX

Please see in the firmware update thread here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post16138971 and ask in that thread if you have any further questions (about the upgrade process). There are detailed instructions in the upgrade firmware program once you install it.
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post #257 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 10:40 PM
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Manni,

I know this is a little off topic, but how do you save and post your whole colorfacts screen shots including the data tables as a jpg. file to post here on AVS ? I am only able to save the individual charts and graphs as jpg, but not the whole colorfacts page as you have been posting ?
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post #258 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 11:06 PM
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I just recalibrated the unit I originally did in January.

First, the firmware upgrade is a pain in the neck. The first PC we tried wouldn't recognize the display. The second we tried recognized the display, but the upgrade wouldn't complete. We finally got it to work by downloading the .exe file, renaming it (because it didn't have an .exe extension), and then unpacking all of the files into the default folder.

Second, when finished I remeasured the THX mode and User 1. Then I used the CMS to correct User 1. The grayscale at 6500K was so accurate no adjustments were required. I put the gamma at 2.3 and made some minor adjustments at 3 or 4 points.

When I had completed this, the RS20 had the most accurate color I have ever measured from any display. I have a more accurate spectro now than I did in January, and even the THX mode measured incredibly well. For the great majority of people this mode would offer sufficient accuracy assuming my unit was typical. It may not be.

User 1
R G B Y C M
0.670 0.279 0.143 0.445 0.200 0.324
0.330 0.711 0.047 0.549 0.324 0.143
0.242 0.689 0.068 0.923 0.755 0.303
CIE94 8.3 10.4 3.6 11.2 4.5 3.1
THX-Now
0.642 0.307 0.148 0.421 0.230 0.323
0.328 0.583 0.062 0.500 0.328 0.157
0.211 0.734 0.075 0.902 0.802 0.296
CIE94 0.4 1.5 0.9 1.4 1.2 1.0
THX-Before
0.652 0.310 0.141 0.427 0.224 0.315
0.322 0.592 0.059 0.502 0.324 0.149
0.202 0.727 0.075 0.902 0.815 0.288
CIE94 1.5 1.7 1.6 2.0 1.8 1.0
CMS
0.642 0.299 0.151 0.418 0.225 0.322
0.329 0.598 0.060 0.505 0.330 0.155
0.207 0.724 0.075 0.923 0.784 0.285
CIE94 0.6 0.5 0.7 0.3 0.3 0.1

The default User 1 is even MORE oversaturated than the RS1s I have worked on.

I thought that a calibrated RS20 looked even better than the Planar I looked at a couple of weeks ago. It has better depth and a less noisy image. This only reinforced my belief that ANSI contrast plays a small role in perceived depth. The ANSI contrast on the RS20 is mediocre, but the illusion of 3D that it delivers is the best I have ever seen. I didn't notice the noise in the Planar at the time, but it became evident when comparing it against the RS20.

To my knowledge the RS20 is the best display of any type for calibration controls and if I have seen a projector that throws a better image I can't think of what it was.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
Springfield, MO

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post #259 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

See Greg R's comments below about using filters with pseudo primaries.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=206

In such cases, filters can yield grossly inaccurate recommendations. Not a good idea.

Tom, thanks.
After thinking about this I now see that pseudo R,G,B and complementary colors are what are displayed in the Color Bars when the Color and Tint controls are adjusted -- so even if we had the ability to turn off each R, G, and B panel individually (as with CRT projectors) in an attempt to bypass the filter problem we would still not be able to make accurate adjustments. And the same applies to checking the decoders with the Color bars

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post #260 of 1634 Old 05-01-2009, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffY View Post

KT, I think there is a fair bit of variance between projectors but nowhere near as much as you get with grey scale where the lamp has a huge influence. Since I know my colour meter isn't accurate I used Manni's CMS settings as a starting point. I believe I'm a pretty good judge of hue. Ramps and filters help dial in saturation and brightness. Manni, has offered to lend me his i1pro at some point so I'll be able to see exactly how far I'm off. In any case I only take rec 709 as a point of reference, I think it's possible to get a few percent extra performance from the display by not follwoing it ridgedly (all IMO of course).

Thanks Jeffy. Can I assume then that after using Manni's settings as a starting point (I assume attempt #3) that you used your own meter and then at the end used the filter approach to do the final tweeking. Or, did you just use the filters and your eye?

KT
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post #261 of 1634 Old 05-02-2009, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

OK, for everyone that was bothered by the 0.1-0.2 dE differences between the various spreadsheets and calculators, I increased the internal precision of the calculations in the Display Calibration Calculator to 16 decimal places !!! That should be accurate enough for government work and keep everyone happy! .....

This has nothing to do with your spreadsheets, but don't you like it when people want precision way beyond the accuracy of their measuring equipment. For instance, the i1 repeatability accuracy is x,y: +/- 0.002

Glen Carter
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www.ISFHT.com
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post #262 of 1634 Old 05-02-2009, 01:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson4u View Post

Manni,

I know this is a little off topic, but how do you save and post your whole colorfacts screen shots including the data tables as a jpg. file to post here on AVS ? I am only able to save the individual charts and graphs as jpg, but not the whole colorfacts page as you have been posting ?

I just select the HCFR program window, do ALT-Prt sc to save the screenshot, launch MS Paint (or any graphic editor) and do CTRL-V to paste the screeshot. I then save it as .jpg using paint. You can use Prt Sc by itself, but it takes a shot of the whole screen instead of the currently active program window when in combination with the alt key.
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post #263 of 1634 Old 05-02-2009, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

I just select the HCFR program window, do ALT-Prt sc to save the screenshot, launch MS Paint (or any graphic editor) and do CTRL-V to paste the screeshot. I then save it as .jpg using paint. You can use Prt Sc by itself, but it takes a shot of the whole screen instead of the currently active program window when in combination with the alt key.


I'm not followig you here. I know of the ALT key, but where is Prt sc key ?
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post #264 of 1634 Old 05-02-2009, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTTV Images View Post

Thanks Jeffy. Can I assume then that after using Manni's settings as a starting point (I assume attempt #3) that you used your own meter and then at the end used the filter approach to do the final tweeking. Or, did you just use the filters and your eye?

KT

I used my meter as well, but just as a one of the references. I know that it is inaccurate. My blue for example always reads outside of the possible colour gamut. If I setup the projector to match the readings of my Sypder3 it would look terrible.
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post #265 of 1634 Old 05-02-2009, 03:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

First of all, thanks for all the help regarding my meters dilemma.

I have solved it by opening a second i1pro that has been sent to me by mistake and that hasn't been collected after 3 weeks and many emails.

It returns exactly the same values as the one I have.

As my eyes also tell me that the i1pro is right, and as the greyscale it returns is superior (ie more neutral) to the greyscale returned by the d2, which is slightly on the warm side, I have decided to put the matter to rest and declare the i1pro the reference and the d2 the off one, which is logical.

The consequence is that THX, at least on my PJ, is seriously undersaturated, but that also tallies as you all know, with my experience of THX (again, on my PJ).

I have put my new lamp back in to clarify that this was not an issue either, so this calibration is done in exactly the same condition as my first attempt (new lamp, i1pro). The main thing that's gone is the human error (too much brightess on green, which induced the slight lack of linearity in my first attempt).

So I have redone a greyscale (just color temp, no work on gamma yet, apart from selecting a 2.3 custom default) using the i1pro. I reckon the greyscale is now flat enough for not being an issue (I made sure I was as close as possible to D65 at 100 IRE).

I have then recalibrated the gamut at 75%, as I realised that it needed much less correction at this level of stimulus to get an almost perfect gamut, and the gamut at 100% is just as good.

I have also run the saturation measures for Stereodaman to dissect.

The conclusion is that the new firmware gets a clean bill of health.

It's as linear as one can wish (I don't think anyone has reported a consumer product with such a good linearity).

And it's as straightforward to use as one could wish, as it is now working as intended. There is very little interaction between the controls, which are now reasonably separate.

Based on my experience, I would just warn about pushing brightness too high, which I did by mistake in my first attempt and which generated the initial slight lack of linearity on green, and to calibrate at 75% rather than 100% as the results are at least as good, with less correction applied which I assume is better.

Here are my settings for those who are not entirely put off by the meter dilemna:

Custom color temp (new lamp)
Gain R = -30
Gain G = 0
Gain B=-58
Offset R=0
Offset G=-4
Offset B=0

CMS (HSB)
R= -4 -22 3
Y=6 -46 37
G=-11 -43 31
C=-3 -51 39
B=30 0 -7
M=1 0 -5

I wish I had posted this as my first attempt, and hope you'll forgive me for the confusion, but hopefully this sets the record straight.

Note: the greyscale and saturation data is in the 3rd attempt HCFR file, as this was my main calibration. The 100% just shows what you get at 100% stimulus, and only the gamut info is relevant in this file.

Hi Manni. Running a new 'Pro' with simular concerns as you had regarding accuracy I came up with the followings settings to hit rec 709 xyY.

(HSB)
R; 3 -22 9
Y; 6 -44 37
G; 15 -37 27
C; 2 -43 35
B; 26 -5 -3
M; 5 -22 12

As these results are reasonably simular to yours other than Green hue and
Magenta saturation I guess that there is a good chance that our meters are accurate. I have 150 hours on my bulb at this point.

The odd one for me was Blue as I could not get to the exact xy co-ordinate but it was very close.

Out of interest did you get D65 spot on at 75% before taking the measurements ?
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post #266 of 1634 Old 05-02-2009, 04:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 008 View Post

Hi Manni. Running a new 'Pro' with simular concerns as you had regarding accuracy I came up with the followings settings to hit rec 709 xyY.

(HSB)
R; 3 -22 9
Y; 6 -44 37
G; 15 -37 27
C; 2 -43 35
B; 26 -5 -3
M; 5 -22 12

As these results are reasonably simular to yours other than Green hue and
Magenta saturation I guess that there is a good chance that our meters are accurate. I have 150 hours on my bulb at this point.

The odd one for me was Blue as I could not get to the exact xy co-ordinate but it was very close.

Out of interest did you get D65 spot on at 75% before taking the measurements ?

Thanks for this, that's really useful. It looks like we both have an i1pro that works and an undersaturated THX mode.

We're even clser re red because after a check on Y with the filters, I bumbed brightness to from 3 to 6.

Blue is the tricky child now that green is sorted with the new CMS. I find it's the most difficult color to get right without making things worse. I was waiting for my screen to fine-tune my calibration, won't be until Monday now.

No, I didn't get D65 spot on at 75% because I'm used to calibrating at 100% and there is no gamma corretion point at 100%, so I got into the habit (which I have to break) to get 100% spot on and flatten the curve as much as I can with the offsets, then finalise with the gamma correction.

You're right, I'll make sure next time I get d65 spot on at 75%, and I'll pay extra attention to blue.

Did you calibrate at 75% or 100%? How does your linearity track? Dd you select a gamma?

Thanks again for the feedback!
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post #267 of 1634 Old 05-02-2009, 04:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson4u View Post

I'm not followig you here. I know of the ALT key, but where is Prt sc key ?

It's short for Print Screen (we used to get text hardcopy in MS-DOS with that one, not used as much these days). It should be somewhere in the upper right corner of your keyboard (if US is same as UK, which I'm not sure).
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post #268 of 1634 Old 05-02-2009, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frohlir944 View Post

can someone please tell me which cable from new egg to use, (is it usb to rs 232?) if yes which one? also they all seem to be wrong male/female wise. Please help with actual firmware steps. THX

Short answer (per that thread):
USB A to mini-B 5pin cable

Choose your the length you need.
Thanks for the reminder.
I just ordered one.

Mike
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post #269 of 1634 Old 05-02-2009, 06:04 AM
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"When I had completed this, the RS20 had the most accurate color I have ever measured from any display... To my knowledge the RS20 is the best display of any type for calibration controls and if I have seen a projector that throws a better image I can't think of what it was."

An impressive statement, Tom, and coming from you, one that carries a lot of weight. I considered upgrading from the RS1 to the RS20, but ended up deciding not to. I have been keeping an eye on the CMS threads, and my take-away prior to this firmware release was that the JVC CMS had two major issues - insufficient correction range, and weirdly interacting controls that made getting where you wanted to go a royal PITA compared to, say, the RadienceXD. It is clear that JVC addressed the range problem, but I had presumed that the control interactions were still a problem. Your post suggests that the upgraded CMS is now essentially perfect. Am I getting this right?

Kevin

PS: What is your "more accurate spectro"?
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post #270 of 1634 Old 05-02-2009, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I just recalibrated the unit I originally did in January.

First, the firmware upgrade is a pain in the neck. The first PC we tried wouldn't recognize the display. The second we tried recognized the display, but the upgrade wouldn't complete. We finally got it to work by downloading the .exe file, renaming it (because it didn't have an .exe extension), and then unpacking all of the files into the default folder.

Second, when finished I remeasured the THX mode and User 1. Then I used the CMS to correct User 1. The grayscale at 6500K was so accurate no adjustments were required. I put the gamma at 2.3 and made some minor adjustments at 3 or 4 points.

When I had completed this, the RS20 had the most accurate color I have ever measured from any display. I have a more accurate spectro now than I did in January, and even the THX mode measured incredibly well. For the great majority of people this mode would offer sufficient accuracy assuming my unit was typical. It may not be.

User 1
R G B Y C M
0.670 0.279 0.143 0.445 0.200 0.324
0.330 0.711 0.047 0.549 0.324 0.143
0.242 0.689 0.068 0.923 0.755 0.303
CIE94 8.3 10.4 3.6 11.2 4.5 3.1
THX-Now
0.642 0.307 0.148 0.421 0.230 0.323
0.328 0.583 0.062 0.500 0.328 0.157
0.211 0.734 0.075 0.902 0.802 0.296
CIE94 0.4 1.5 0.9 1.4 1.2 1.0
THX-Before
0.652 0.310 0.141 0.427 0.224 0.315
0.322 0.592 0.059 0.502 0.324 0.149
0.202 0.727 0.075 0.902 0.815 0.288
CIE94 1.5 1.7 1.6 2.0 1.8 1.0
CMS
0.642 0.299 0.151 0.418 0.225 0.322
0.329 0.598 0.060 0.505 0.330 0.155
0.207 0.724 0.075 0.923 0.784 0.285
CIE94 0.6 0.5 0.7 0.3 0.3 0.1

The default User 1 is even MORE oversaturated than the RS1s I have worked on.

I thought that a calibrated RS20 looked even better than the Planar I looked at a couple of weeks ago. It has better depth and a less noisy image. This only reinforced my belief that ANSI contrast plays a small role in perceived depth. The ANSI contrast on the RS20 is mediocre, but the illusion of 3D that it delivers is the best I have ever seen. I didn't notice the noise in the Planar at the time, but it became evident when comparing it against the RS20.

To my knowledge the RS20 is the best display of any type for calibration controls and if I have seen a projector that throws a better image I can't think of what it was.


Tom,
With the new firmware do you still need to use the THX service menu adjustment to get an accurate gray scale, or can this now be achieved solely with the normal User1 settings with CMS and gamma controls?
Thanks,
Carl
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