Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread (NEW FIRMWARE V1.1) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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[EDIT 06-05-09: I have edited this first post to add some info from the first calibration thread and to make it a useful table of content to the new calibration and CMS thread]

This thread is a continuation of the original official RS20/hd750 calibration and CMS thread here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post15314888.

As the old calibration thread is mostly obsolete regarding CMS calibration with the arrival of the new firmware, we have decided to start afresh!

First things first, you need to upgrade the firmware before using the tips available in this thread.

A - NEW FIRMWARE
Where to get the firmware update (and common installation issues): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post16355768
CAUTION: the new firmware erases ALL settings, so if you have general settings or calibration settings you wish to keep, make sure you make note of them before upgrading.

There is a wealth of knowledge regarding greyscale and gamma calibration in the original calibration thread. So here is a list of the most important posts which are still mostly relevant with the new firmware:

B - GREYSCALE: (from original thread, but info still relevant)
Before we get into CMS settings, the first thing to do is to get the best possible greyscale using only color temps adjustments, as this will make a huge difference with THX (and other presets). As already reported, some excellent tips are available here to achieve this from Mark Petersen Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum and also from Googer and others in the rest of the thread, here is one of Googer's great posts about gamma: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...#post15522847]

C - TWEAKED THX (from original thread, but info still relevant)
Once you have a custom color temp that gives you as perfect a greyscale as possible, the next step is to select the THX preset and enter the service mode (up/down/right/left/enter as fast as possible, either on the remote or the pj). [DISCLAIMER: be very careful when in this mode, you enter it at your own risks, if you make a mistake, don't blame me!]. You can then select a different color temp (for example the custom one you've just tweaked), and this will be the color temp used by THX. You can now exit the service mode. This will make a HUGE difference to the ootb THX preset, as it will use a greyscale which is likely to be pretty good from 30 IRE up to 100 IRE, instead of a greyscale which is quite flat but off badly over the whole range, whether in normal or high lamp. More info about achieving this here Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 29 - AVS Forum

If you like this "tweaked THX" preset, which is very close to rec709 - although slightly undersaturated for some - with a standard gamma, you can stop here and enjoy your PJ. If you do find it undersaturated, you can add anything from 1 to 12 - depending on your taste - to the general color control (I personally add 1-5 depending on source). That's it. Job done.

If you want to go one step further, and be able to use a custom gamma, sharpness and detail enhancement controls and adjust the gamut to Rec709, SMPTE-C or to your own taste, then have fun with the next section which is mostly about custom CMS settings...

D - CUSTOM SETTINGS, REPORTS and CALIBRATION TIPS with the NEW FIRMWARE

As members post reports/settings and calibration tips in the thread, I'll try to update this section with the most significant contributions (in chronological order).
Please let me know if I have forgotten something or if I get sloppy updating...

Reports from the pros:
GregR : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16360087
Tom Huffman: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post16383023
Tom Huffman#2: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16431819

Settings:
Manni01 (1.4 gain screen): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16365507
JeffY: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post16371803
Karrih: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16380924
008: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16383359
Nelson4u: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16388557
Ignace: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16389657
LovingDVD: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post16482286
Lawguy: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16428562
Manni01 (1.2 gain screen): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post16431351
MarcelW: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16433669
Lawguy LT vs i1Pro http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post16438408
RickS (HDMI Enhanced): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16630004
Manni01: back to 1.1 gain/new lamp, and HDMI Enhanced, settings for Rec709 and SMPTE-C http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post16662220
Manni01: updated Rec709 and SMPTE-C calibrations, along with a PAL calibration: http://www.avforums.com/forums/dlp-l...ml#post9767111

Calibration Tips:
Classic beginner's mistake and link to Tom Huffman's CMS calibration tutorial and GregR's calculator thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post16370193
How to use filters to check brightness (LovingDVD): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16372917
When/why NOT to use filters (GregR & Tom Huffman): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16373717 and http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post16380651
dE discussion: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post16374865
Tom Huffman's spreadsheet for CIELUV: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16378927
GregR's DisplayCalibration Calculator: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16382042
Get a screenshot in HCFR: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post16383268
Which USB cable for the firmware upgrade?: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16383437
Training a meter to another in HCFR: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16384494
Adjusting greyscale (GregR): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post16387960
Link to Calibration for Dummies: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16402839
Use of filter and calibration tips (Darinp2): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16431819
Saturation levels explained (Tom Huffman): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16439382
Sharpness/focus adjustment tips (GregR / LeDahu / Deanbob): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16689752
Great tips/tools for gamma calibration (LovingDVD / LeDahu): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post17017488
Gamma tweaking V1.2 (english translation and VERY IMPORTANT SPECIAL PROCEDURE): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post17045339
Gamma tweaking V2 (Le Dahu): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post17060116
Contrast and RGB (Tom Huffman et al): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post17150298

REST OF INITIAL POST:

I have done a first attempt with the new firmware, and the news is mostly good!

- The range for the controls has been extended from -60 to 60 (instead of -30 to 30), which gives enough range to dial the gamut perfectly without touching the general color control. Well done JVC!

- The linearity is good but not perfect. Most colors stay where they should, but green seems to be a bit oversaturated at 75% when calibrating at 100%. Nothing compared to the first firmware, but still not perfect. [edit: this was due to an error on my side, there is NO LINEARITY problem with the new firmware].

- I had only time for a quick calibration today, so I'll post more later. I attach my HCFR files for those who want to have a look at the details (EDIT: I used a brand new i1pro to calibrate).

If you want to try my settings (only after upgrading the firmware), here they are:

[EDIT: please do not use these settings, I and others have posted updated settings, see links above].

Contrast=0
Brightness=0
Color=0
Tint=0

Color temp (new lamp, probably not useful for most of you)
Gain R=-24, G=0, B=-54
Offset R=-1 G=-3 B=0

CMS (H,S,B)
Red -4 -23 7
Yellow 22 -44 38
Green -5 -39 44
Cyan -3 -48 39
Blue 37 -8 -4
Magenta -6 0 -3

I didn't have time to do any fine-tuning on gamma etc...

 

New firmware.zip 153.3935546875k . file
LL
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post #2 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 07:32 AM
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I had a quick play, colour ramps look good, no clipping going on.
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post #3 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffY View Post

I had a quick play, colour ramps look good, no clipping going on.

Yes, clipping is fine, but did you find the same slight oversaturation for green at 75%?
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post #4 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 07:49 AM
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I have similar results as Manni but totaly differnt CMS settings. Please have a look on this results. It should be ok? I'm not a expert maybe I miss something?

CMS (H,S,B)
Red 9 -21 8
Yellow 0 -46 36
Green -3 -44 33
Cyan -2 -51 40
Blue 56 -2 -4
Magenta 5 -25 12

Where comes the big difference?
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post #5 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepardos View Post

I have similar results as Manni but totaly differnt CMS settings. Please have a look on this results. It should be ok? I'm not a expert maybe I miss something?

CMS (H,S,B)
Red 9 -21 8
Yellow 0 -46 36
Green -3 -44 33
Cyan -2 -51 40
Blue 56 -2 -4
Magenta 5 -25 12

Where comes the big difference?

I have no idea. I used a brand new i1 pro to calibrate, which meter are you using?
Also could you post your data for primaries and secondaries, the second .jpg shows up blank on my PC.
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post #6 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Yes, clipping is fine, but did you find the same slight oversaturation for green at 75%?

It is not just oversaturation. Green is also too bright.

100% 75%
R 1.4 1.1
G 0.1 8.8
B 1.9 1.6
Y 0.6 2.5
C 0.9 0.8
M 0.4 1.0

It all looks good, except for green. 8.8 is a very large CIE94 error. You should try calibrating at 75% and then see how 100% measures. You might get better results.

Other than green, everything else looks good. Yellow is a little high, but that is mostly a hue error, which should be easy to fix.

Tom Huffman
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ISF/THX Calibrations
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post #7 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Yes, clipping is fine, but did you find the same slight oversaturation for green at 75%?

I've not measured it yet, just looking at test patterns.
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post #8 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 08:17 AM
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I use a i1 LT meter but I think this should not be the big differnce!? I attached again the measures for primary and secondary. The results should be ok!?

Can somebody exlpain how to messure 75% Colors and what is the benefit?

I do the mesures on High Lamp maybe this makes also some difference?
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post #9 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

It is not just oversaturation. Green is also too bright.

100% 75%
R 1.4 1.1
G 0.1 8.8
B 1.9 1.6
Y 0.6 2.5
C 0.9 0.8
M 0.4 1.0

It all looks good, except for green. 8.8 is a very large CIE94 error. You should try calibrating at 75% and then see how 100% measures. You might get better results.

Other than green, everything else looks good. Yellow is a little high, but that is mostly a hue error, which should be easy to fix.

Thanks for the feedback Tom.

I did this quite quickly, so there is definitely a margin for progression!

I'll try to calibrate at 75% and see if it helps with green.

But it's already a fantastic improvement, it's great to have a working CMS!
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post #10 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepardos View Post

I have similar results as Manni but totaly differnt CMS settings. Please have a look on this results. It should be ok? I'm not a expert maybe I miss something?

CMS (H,S,B)
Red 9 -21 8
Yellow 0 -46 36
Green -3 -44 33
Cyan -2 -51 40
Blue 56 -2 -4
Magenta 5 -25 12

Where comes the big difference?

Your blue looks highly suspect, thats a huge change in hue and I'd expect lower saturation and higher brightness needed. The other figures look plausible.

Jeff
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post #11 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 08:22 AM
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Guys,

I'd like to know what real-world, perceptible, visual, subjective difference you are seeing...or expect to see...with this CMS fix.

When I asked in the older thread "What is it that's wrong with the current CMS?" I got technical explanations on the order of "you can't adjust X parameter without affecting Z parameter". Unfortunately for someone like me who has never used a CMS it's still "Greek to me." I'm interested to know the end result of the issues - how things look.

How would we expect the new CMS to improve the images?

Many thanks.

Rich H


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post #12 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Guys,

I'd like to know what real-world, perceptible, visual, subjective difference you are seeing...or expect to see...with this CMS fix.

When I asked in the older thread "What is it that's wrong with the current CMS?" I got technical explanations on the order of "you can't adjust X parameter without affecting Z parameter". Unfortunately for someone like me who has never used a CMS it's still "Greek to me." I'm interested to know how things look, not measure.

How would we expect the new CMS to improve the images?

Many thanks.

With my settings I couldn't get high brightness/low saturation scenes to have enough saturation in them. Average scenes looked OK.
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post #13 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 08:31 AM
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Your blue looks highly suspect, thats a huge change in hue and I'd expect lower saturation and higher brightness needed. The other figures look plausible.

Jeff

Do you had a look on the results?

Blue
x 0.153474
y 0.062591
Y 3.705049
dE 3.8
dxy 0.004
dlu -1.8%

Should be good or do you see anything wrong?
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post #14 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 08:35 AM
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I didn't look at the results, it's just the settings that look odd. It could be an indication that the probe is inaccurate/faulty.
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post #15 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Guys,

I'd like to know what real-world, perceptible, visual, subjective difference you are seeing...or expect to see...with this CMS fix.

When I asked in the older thread "What is it that's wrong with the current CMS?" I got technical explanations on the order of "you can't adjust X parameter without affecting Z parameter". Unfortunately for someone like me who has never used a CMS it's still "Greek to me." I'm interested to know the end result of the issues - how things look.

How would we expect the new CMS to improve the images?

Many thanks.

The new CMS allows you to get accurate colors without losing control over the other elements of the picture (primarily sharpness and gamma).

Until now, you could have accurate colors with THX, but no custom gamma and no advanced controls (sharpness, detail enhancement).

If you wanted to adjust the color gamut to your taste, you had to compromise on accuracy as clipping occured when some controls were used in user mode.

Now you can get the best of both worlds: dial the gamut the way you like (bang on Rec709 or to your own taste) and keep control on all the other elements of the picture.

The main visual difference if you want accurate colors will be the use of a custom gamma with THX-accurate colors. In a bat cave, many felt the 2.1 gamma of THX was too low.

So basically, the new CMS offers freedom and accuracy!
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post #16 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 08:44 AM
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This is great news for you guys! Once you are happy with a calibration with the new firmware, could one of you measure all the saturation windows (all 30 of them) using HCFR and the AVSHD disc? Then post the HCFR file? I just want to make sure the CMS is truely fixed, and that lower saturations aren't severely impacted.

Dan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

This is great news for you guys! Once you are happy with a calibration with the new firmware, could one of you measure all the saturation windows (all 30 of them) using HCFR and the AVSHD disc? Then post the HCFR file? I just want to make sure the CMS is truely fixed, and that lower saturations aren't severely impacted.

Dan

I'll do this when I try calibrating at 75% and will post results in the HCFR files.
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post #18 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 08:54 AM
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Hi,
Is this a UK issue only ?

JVC US said the US version of the RS20 has a correctly working CMS and this does not apply.

Thanks for any clarification.

-BB
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post #19 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGLook View Post

Hi,
Is this a UK issue only ?

JVC US said the US version of the RS20 has a correctly working CMS and this does not apply.

Thanks for any clarification.

-BB

Whoever told you that is wrong.

Affable Nitwit
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post #20 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Guys,

I'd like to know what real-world, perceptible, visual, subjective difference you are seeing...or expect to see...with this CMS fix.

When I asked in the older thread "What is it that's wrong with the current CMS?" I got technical explanations on the order of "you can't adjust X parameter without affecting Z parameter". Unfortunately for someone like me who has never used a CMS it's still "Greek to me." I'm interested to know the end result of the issues - how things look.

How would we expect the new CMS to improve the images?

Many thanks.

Maybe one of the guys here can take some screen photos before and after like I did in my Epson Calibration guide (link provided below). I think I have these original photos on a disc so I could upload the originals here. Then anyone can load them onto a PS3, or a CD to view on a Blu-ray player...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post16166541

Dan
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post #21 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 09:07 AM
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The UK is US allie, why would they tell you its only the british verson that was wrong? No real foul though.

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post #22 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 09:08 AM
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Manni, Is it possible to use a Mac to do the new FW upgrade?
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post #23 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Manni, Is it possible to use a Mac to do the new FW upgrade?

Not as far as I know, the upgrade software is a PC .exe, and all the drivers are for XP/Vista.

It may work with parallel, but I wouldn't risk bricking an rs20 with an experiment like this!!!!
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post #24 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Not as far as I know, the upgrade software is a PC .exe, and all the drivers are for XP/Vista.

It may work with parallel, but I wouldn't risk bricking an rs20 with an experiment like this!!!!

OK, will borrow my daughter's PC.
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post #25 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, will borrow my daughter's PC.

Sounds safer!
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post #26 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

The UK is US allie, why would they tell you its only the british verson that was wrong? No real foul though.

Hi,
That is my question/confusion..

I have spoken with JVC US several times on this issue... last week and today.

They insist the 'US MODEL' does not have a CMS issue and that they are 'not' working on any firmware updates at this time.

Maybe no one has complained.. and they just don't know..

The only reason I care is because I have a calibration scheduled and want to nail this issue first, for obvious reasons.

If any US users do apply the firmware with success, I would appreciate any feedback.

Thanks all !
-BB
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post #27 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 09:28 AM
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Thanks for the replies about the CMS and it's results on the picture.

Go thread go!

Rich H


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post #28 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 09:31 AM
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Downloaded the file from JVC but are not able to run it? Any tips? The file seems not to have an extention (exe) that makes it possible to run it...
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post #29 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGLook View Post

Hi,
That is my question/confusion..

I have spoken with JVC US several times on this issue... last week and today.

They insist the 'US MODEL' does not have a CMS issue and that they are 'not' working on any firmware updates at this time.

Maybe no one has complained.. and they just don't know..

The only reason I care is because I have a calibration scheduled and want to nail this issue first, for obvious reasons.

If any US users do apply the firmware with success, I would appreciate any feedback.

Thanks all !
-BB

I'm also getting a calibration soon, so I think this is of general interest.

Also, is this not a JVC (US) supported FW update?


Mike


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post #30 of 1634 Old 04-28-2009, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heja View Post

Downloaded the file from JVC but are not able to run it? Any tips? The file seems not to have an extention (exe) that makes it possible to run it...

rename the file to add the .exe
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