LCD-Panel Burn-In on Epson 6500UB! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 46 Old 07-17-2009, 04:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi!

I have an Epson TW5000 (the European version of the 6500UB) and I mostly watch BRs with an aspect ratio of 2.35:1 (black bars at the top and bottom). Now, after about 300 hours of watching, I watched a 1.85:1 movie and I noticed that the areas where the black bars in 2.35:1 movies are, these areas are brighter or show a bluish tint!

It's like the black bars have burned in and now are visible as shadows, which are very distracting!

Is the projector defective? Are the panels broken and need to be replaced?

Regards,
Martin
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post #2 of 46 Old 07-17-2009, 06:44 AM
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That's possible, but odd at 300 hours. How are you running the projector (what settings)?
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post #3 of 46 Old 07-17-2009, 07:32 AM
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Try comparing this effect with the brighter modes versus the theater modes. The brighter modes do not use the internal filter and if you do not see this in these modes, then the issue may be the internal filter is showing some degradation. I have seen this with external filters before. I would also call Epson to get them to swap your projector for another unit.
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post #4 of 46 Old 07-17-2009, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm running the projector with high brightness settings. It's one of the first batch and it had pretty bad thermal focus, image position, zoom, etc. shifting when warming up. Just when I was about to RMA it, these issues vanished and I was really happy with it, because it has near perfect convergence and no stuck / dead pixels.

But now the LCD panels are damaged! What a disappointment!

I've attached a photo of the problem. The projector is displaying a dark gray background and you can see (I hope it can be seen clearly) the dark bars at the top and the bottom where it actually should be the same shade of gray all over the image (the other darker areas and patterns come from the screen, which is not perfectly plain and the stuck pixels are from the camera, so please disregard them).

I'll have to call Epson at Monday. However, even if they replace the unit, it's still very irritating, because I just have 270 hours on the device now. Probably the same will happen after a while again?

Does anybody else see this issue on their devices?

Regards!
LL
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post #5 of 46 Old 07-18-2009, 12:53 AM
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I would run the projector about 12 hours with an all-white screen if you can, and then see if the problem is still there. Or, just run it 12 hours with moving content that fills the screen. LCDs can get "image retention", but it goes away if the display area is used with other content. You may need to try more than 12 hours.

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"It's [expletive] lame to watch Jaws, a film that uses the 2.40 ratio as well as any ever produced, in the wrong format on HBO." -Steven Soderbergh, Oscar-winning director

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post #6 of 46 Old 07-18-2009, 06:45 AM
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Lcos do the same thing, does your unit have a iris system of some sort? If it does doing manual open to max will enable what's happening to you use the normal iris is you have such thing, let the unit automatically adjust the light output. This happened to me, but it went away once I let the iris work properly. Hope this helps!!!
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post #7 of 46 Old 07-18-2009, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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@ChrisW6ATV: you are probably right that such "image retention" could be cured by cycling colors or switching the panels on/off rapidly over a long period of time, but I've read that this is just a temporary fix, because once the panels show this issue, it will always come back - and very quickly. Somebody reported that even just a few minutes of a static image would now cause the retention to show. Also, I think a device that was only used for 270 hours should not show this problem at all. Maybe after several thousands of hours, but certainly not so fast.

@rob47v: yes, the TW5000 has an iris, and but I leave it open all the time, because I need the light! My screen is 3,5 x 2 meters and the reason I got the Epson was for its great light output. Also, I don't see how lowering the light output could fix the problem? It shows the most in dark images, not in bright scenes. Maybe a closed iris lets less heat to the panels and thus preventing the burn in? But now they are already burnt in, I'm not sure this would help.

Regards!
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post #8 of 46 Old 07-18-2009, 12:30 PM
 
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thats the problem with buying a European version of the projector and not the AMERICAN version (of course the joke being that they are both made in Asia)

I guess the real question is are you still under warranty? If so hopefully Epson will take care of it for you
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post #9 of 46 Old 07-18-2009, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Why is the European version a problem? We have the exact same 3 years warranty (and 3000 hours on the lamp). We even get the LPE version (Light Power Edition) with an additional filter to put on the lens for color correction in high brightness modes. I see no disadvantage in that (except maybe that we are paying more here in Europe - but at least holidays in the USA are extremely cheap for us today because of the weak USD and strong Euro ;-)

Regards!
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post #10 of 46 Old 07-18-2009, 01:50 PM
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Wow, this is the first time I've heard of this issue with the 1080, 1080UB, 6500UB, or 7500UB. It's not typically an issue with these Epson projectors.

I've watched 1000+ hours of 2.35 content with no hint of burn-in or image retention in the black bar area. (I have the 1080UB).

At least it's still under warranty (assuming it was purchased from an authorized dealer).

Dan
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post #11 of 46 Old 07-18-2009, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

Wow, this is the first time I've heard of this issue with the 1080, 1080UB, 6500UB, or 7500UB. It's not typically an issue with these Epson projectors.

I've watched 1000+ hours of 2.35 content with no hint of burn-in or image retention in the black bar area. (I have the 1080UB).

At least it's still under warranty (assuming it was purchased from an authorized dealer).

Dan

+1

Is it possible that he has his black level too high just seeing blooming of black?
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post #12 of 46 Old 07-19-2009, 02:46 AM - Thread Starter
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It's not just black, but with all colors. It seems to affect blue tones the most, but I can see discoloration of all colors in the affected areas. Not visible in bright scenes, but often very visible in dark scenes. I'm sure I'm not using wrong settings, black levels, etc, because I didn't change anything and the picture was always perfect until a few days ago when I noticed the burn in.

I've watched "Big Stan" yesterday (1.85:1) and the issue was visible, but not too bad. So I think about watching the issue for a few days / weeks before contacting Epson, because I really fear getting a worse device (when looking at the various reports of people here having to exchange many times to get an acceptable one).

On the other hand, I think such a burn in is unacceptable and Epson must fix this for me. However, how can I be sure it will not happen again with the replacement? Difficult...

Regards!
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post #13 of 46 Old 07-19-2009, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MHoefler View Post

It's not just black, but with all colors. It seems to affect blue tones the most, but I can see discoloration of all colors in the affected areas. Not visible in bright scenes, but often very visible in dark scenes. I'm sure I'm not using wrong settings, black levels, etc, because I didn't change anything and the picture was always perfect until a few days ago when I noticed the burn in.

I've watched "Big Stan" yesterday (1.85:1) and the issue was visible, but not too bad. So I think about watching the issue for a few days / weeks before contacting Epson, because I really fear getting a worse device (when looking at the various reports of people here having to exchange many times to get an acceptable one).

On the other hand, I think such a burn in is unacceptable and Epson must fix this for me. However, how can I be sure it will not happen again with the replacement? Difficult...

Regards!

That's strange...


Put in a full screen source like HDTV and leave it on for a few hours...see if it fixes itself...

I didnt think burn in was a problem with these pjs...
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post #14 of 46 Old 07-19-2009, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I already did - but just 2 hours (watching "Big Stan"). It was 2 hours of "moving all pixels". After that, I checked the gray test image and it still looked the same (showed the problem clearly). I'm afraid it's a permanent damage...

Regards!
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post #15 of 46 Old 07-19-2009, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's an image from "Crank" - you can clearly see the burn in of the letterbox bars in the dark areas of the image.

No matter what I try, the problem doesn't go away. The damage really seems to be permanent.

How can this happen? Why does nobody else have this issue? I only have 270 hours on the projector, so there must be other with a lot more hours where the problem should be even more visible?

Regards!
LL
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post #16 of 46 Old 07-19-2009, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MHoefler View Post

Here's an image from "Crank" - you can clearly see the burn in of the letterbox bars in the dark areas of the image.

No matter what I try, the problem doesn't go away. The damage really seems to be permanent.

How can this happen? Why does nobody else have this issue? I only have 270 hours on the projector, so there must be other with a lot more hours where the problem should be even more visible?

Regards!

Sucks! Call for a replacement!

Epson is very good with their warranty.
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post #17 of 46 Old 07-19-2009, 06:29 PM
 
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Quote:


Why is the European version a problem?

It was a joke as they are both made in Asia. When you say the European and American version it sounds like they are made there
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post #18 of 46 Old 08-14-2009, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi!

Today I got my projector back from the service center. They didn't replace it, but "repair" it (whatever this means). Indeed it was the same unit (serial number), firmware updated to v1.09. Lens shift still sucks (adjusting one changes the other axis, etc.) and so it took me about 30 minutes to adjust everything properly. During that time, the menu of the projector was displayed, so that I could adjust the focus.

After setting the unit up, I immediately opened a dark gray bitmap image to see if the burn in of the black bars was gone. And indeed it was.

HOWEVER: the menu, which was just displayed for 30 minutes was clearly burned in! I thought, oh my god, what's that supposed to be now? So I started a movie to see if it would go away. It didn't! The menu even was visible in dark scenes of the movie!

After another 20-30 minutes, I displayed the gray background again to see how the burn in developed. Guess what: the menu still was visible and furthermore the black bars burn in was also back!

I've attached a photo. You can not only see the black bars and the menu structure, but you can even read the menu items! Horrible! Also, some parts of a window on the computer desktop are visible. Burned in in just a few minutes.

So this is what Epson calls "repair"? Obviously, the panels in my unit are broken and they didn't repair them, but somehow just cleared the original burn in. But everything (and more) comes back after just a few minutes...

What should I do now?

Regards!
LL
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post #19 of 46 Old 08-14-2009, 03:22 PM
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This has to be temporary image retention. I don't even think it was burned the first time.

It's actually not the panels either it is another part called the polarizers.

Sounds to me like you need to be a little nicer to your projector. I'd say it is setup way way to bright, like torch mode.
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post #20 of 46 Old 08-14-2009, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I do run it at high brightness (vivid, lamp mode high, iris off), but I need the lumens! That's the reason why I got the Epson in the first place! My screen is huge: 355x198 cm, so I need the high light output.

Why should I be "nicer" to my projector? I run it within it's specifications and why should it break when I use it that way? I've always set all my projector to the maximum light output (due to the large screen) and this is the first one that shows retention (or burn in or whatever this is). Unacceptable, if you ask me. If the device can't handle the light, it should not offer the high brightness modes.

Here in Europe, they even sell the TW5000 as a "Light Power Edition" with an additional color filter (for correct colors). And it's supposed to run at the highest brightness settings when using this filter (I don't use the filter, by the way).

Regards!
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post #21 of 46 Old 08-14-2009, 07:46 PM
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Wow brother, I feel for you, because I'm the guy that always gets a bad (insert anything here). After weeks of running home to check the mail it finally arrives and theres a problem. Has to go back or be repaired or whatever and I'm waiting again. Most recently my yamaha reciever which I still hate the dialog and surrounds.

But you never answered about the warranty? Send it back and get something else?
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post #22 of 46 Old 08-15-2009, 01:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, it is under warranty. 3 years pick up and return. So getting it repaired is no problem, but extremely annoying! They gave me a TW3800 for the time of the repair so that we could at least watch movies, but having to setup and adjust the projectors all the time is exhausting! Obviously, I will have to get it repaired every few weeks at least.

I would ask for my money back, but there doesn't seem to be any alternative. I need the high lumens and I like the great picture quality. Black levels are superb and the contrast is amazing. I've never seen a better picture for a consumer level projector.

So I guess I keep sending it in for repair until Epson really "fixes" the problem.

Regards!
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post #23 of 46 Old 08-15-2009, 02:55 PM
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While I don't have a 6500UB, my recently retired Epson 550 (720p) exhibited this behavior in the first ~1,000 hours of use. Mild, but visible. I called Epson as soon as I saw it, and they said it will decrease with time, and I should project full white image for a couple of hours at full power to remove retained images.

I was very skeptical at first, but eventually I came to agree with Epson.

Image retention did diminish the longer I used it, just as Epson said. When I retired the 550 (at over 8,000 hours) I could see no trace of retention even after several hours of full power use with 4:3 or 2.35:1 when going back to 1.78. (I also had a Sony VPL-W400Q prior to the Epson and it, too, had no permanent burn-in after over 10,000 hours. Did have one blue polarizer burn, which was common for this particular Sony, but no aspect ratio / bar type burn.)

Since most LCD projectors use Epson panels, you are likely to see this on other LCD projector brands too. If it really bugs you, then you need to go to DLP. (I don't know if LCOS panels have any image retention.)

Continuing to send it back to Epson seems, to me at least, an exercise in frustration since it is inherent in the technology.
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post #24 of 46 Old 08-15-2009, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Mine started to show this at about 270 hours and it gets worse and worse! Today, we watched a movie which caused the burned in menu to dim, so it's less visible now but you can still see it on a gray background.

However, the 1,5 hours of 2.35:1 material was enough to burn in the black bars extremely! This is much worse as it was before and it happened in just 1,5 hours!

Please see the attached photo. Do you really think that's something I should live with? No, sorry. I've had several LCD projectors and this is the only one to show this issue. If it was inherent in the technology, everybody would experience this. But maybe it's just something with my device that's broken or makes it vulnerable to burn in.

It's absolutely unacceptable for me, because it totally spoils the experience of a movie.

I'm gonna bug Epson as long as it takes them to fix this for good! Maybe they will at least explain to me why this is happening eventually?

Regards!
LL
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post #25 of 46 Old 08-15-2009, 04:09 PM
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No, I don't think you should live with it if it bothers you. My apologies if you think I was dismissing your frustration.

What you are describing is very unusual from what I've seen, not something that I've heard of with Epson UB projectors.

You should definitely pursue it with Epson if it is getting worse. You should stress to Epson that this is not like your experience with other LCD projectors.

I don't know how Epson staff is in Europe, but my contact with Epson staff in the US has been exceptionally good.

In the US, under warranty, Epson will send out a replacement unit overnight and you send your old unit back, rather than using a loaner projector. Is the warranty different in Europe? (I realize you like the unit you have regarding panel alignment, etc.)
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post #26 of 46 Old 08-15-2009, 05:25 PM
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That is shocking to see on such a good reviewed projector, not a cheap one either.

I would demand another new projector not fix the current one, if you do not want to go with another brand/type, stating that its just not acceptable.

If second unit does the same thing, demand money back and go a different projector... nothing more you can do!

I had an old hitachi LCD, with less then 500h it did the same thing as i tended to watch 2.35 movies a lot.
I did everything i could and could not get rid of it, i even posted a thread in here asking about it.
I was so dissapointed i switched to DLP and never looked back. ( DLP is not for everyone tho, i have no rainbow issue's with mine and love it )
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post #27 of 46 Old 08-15-2009, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAZMAN808 View Post

I would demand another new projector not fix the current one,

I have a sneaking suspicion that the problem will be exhibited on even a new Epson projector. I suspect it's more due to viewing settings than the projector itself. JMO
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post #28 of 46 Old 08-15-2009, 08:28 PM
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Yea but like said, the projector was made with the features it has, so if you can use those features, like the settings he has then surely that would be still within epson's specifications.

its like saying, i bought a car that can rev to 6000rpm, but if i take it more then 4000rpm,it will break within 300km use.

There is no clause that states he cannot do or setup his projector the way he has, is there?
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post #29 of 46 Old 08-16-2009, 01:52 AM - Thread Starter
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The problem with Epson here in Austria is, that they don't do their own service, but they have it outsourced to another company. So when I call the Epson service hotline, they tell me to contact the service company and they will then pick up my unit and give me a loaner TW3800 for the time of repair. They explicitly told me that they do not replace the units, but repair them and the repair takes between 2 and 4 weeks usually. So I guess I'll have to send it in every 2-4 weeks ;-)

Since I generally like the model very much, I will simply bother Epson as long as possible to harm them! I'll keep sending it in until the transportation costs for them will be higher than the price I paid for the projector. Maybe this will teach them a lesson...

I'm really angry at Epson, because such a thing should not be necessary. How can they return my projector which is now even worse than it was before? If this is a known issue or limitation of the technology, then they should tell me why or what I'm doing wrong. Just returning a faulty unit to the customer is an impudence in my opinion. They know what the problem is, because they were able to clear the initial burn in, so they must know where it comes from and how to prevent it. If it's not possible to prevent it, they also need to tell me and give me my money back so that I can look for a different brand.

Regards!
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post #30 of 46 Old 08-16-2009, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MHoefler View Post

...I've had several LCD projectors and this is the only one to show this issue...

Those severeal LCDs work with the same setup as Epson (big screen / high lumen output)? I'm just curious, is it really issue with your pj, or maybe settings are extremely rare? Of course, I'm not supose that is your fault, those settings are not exceed manufacturer clamis.

I think, maybe in the end we will see in user manuals of LCD pjs the same sentence, like in user manuals (nearly on front page) of plasma and LCD TVs: watching content in other than 16:9 aspect ratio is leading to burn in (or retention) some bars on the screen, and will be disregarded as the defect.

"...Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril..."
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