Mitsubishi HC6800 LCD HD Projector (30,000:1 on/off) - Page 22 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #631 of 1121 Old 03-04-2010, 11:12 AM
AVS Special Member
 
CT_Wiebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 6,437
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsil View Post

My FP is Pan ax200u 720p and was thinking about upgrading to Mit HC6800 or VS Pro8100. I need input from you guy's who have gone for 720p FP to 1080p FP and are happy with the PQ. I'm looking at PQ with blu-ray and HDTV.

Hi, it's been a long time since we've talked.

Your AX200 is a light canon compared to either of those PJs. If you want a really bright picture, neither will do the job.

As for the quality of the picture, any 1080p PJ is a big improvement over any 720p PJ. I went from a MT700, 720p DLP PJ to a Mitsubishi HC5500 (now a 2 year old model). There was no comparison.

If you are curious about the VS Pro8100, why don't you read the entire Pro8100 thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=935509. The last half of that thread has the most information. Also see the new thread which summarizes some of the important details of the Pro8100: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1231485.

From a money standpoint, there is no comparison since the Pro8100 currently sells for close to half the price of the HC6800 (way less than the original $4999 MSRP). Both use the HQV-VX processing engine and have similar features. The HC6800 has slightly better black levels, but the Pro8100 has a better set of calibration options. The Pro8100 is also supposed to be individually tested and calibrated at the factory (per the latest posts in the Pro8100 thread).

The down-side of the Pro8100 is that it is an older PJ and has been "officially" discontinued, although it is still available from various on-line sources (make sure that you get one with the full VS warranty, and not a refurb with a very limited warranty).

Both the HC6800 and the Pro8100 have a very enthusiastic following, if you read both threads (with some exceptions, of course). It's a decision only you can make.

- Claus {non-Santa model}
CT_Wiebe is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #632 of 1121 Old 03-04-2010, 12:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jsil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,592
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
CT_Wiebe,
Thank you for your input. Now I need to decide keep my Pan ax200u or get one of these 1080p FP.

jsil is online now  
post #633 of 1121 Old 03-05-2010, 10:01 AM
Member
 
Studio2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 161
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
CT Wiebe

I have been watching movies like crazy


This PJ has an amazing image. Yes - The blacks are not as black as can be, but what sets this PJ apart in my opinion is its sharpness and a natural image - To me it does not look like a large plasma on a wall at all. Which is exactly what I wanted. It looks like I am at the movie theatre, not looking at a large Plasma TV. My gain is 1.3 WA.

On my system I am not seeing any visual distortion or artifacts. I am projecting approx 135 Cinemascope and I am still using the low lamp mode setting.

Now as others have mentioned the blacks are more like a very dark grey color, especially the top and bottom bars when projected, even with the shutter settings. However when I am viewing the movie itself, then to me for example a black object looks black and not dark gray. For example Darth Vador looks black, or if someone is wearing a black coat it is darker or near black in comparison to the bars, so to my eyes I am very satisfied with the black levels on this PJ with Auto Iris on 5 and low lamp mode. To me the Auto 5 does not pump the iris exremely. I can only really observe it when there is a total black screen and then at end of movie when credits appear.

Could there ba a reason why its blacker in image than the bars? Thats my observation.
Studio2000 is offline  
post #634 of 1121 Old 03-05-2010, 08:27 PM
Senior Member
 
NYMN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
A few shots from Defiance. (blu ray) Great movie! Next time I'll try to use a tripod as well.
LL
LL
LL
NYMN is offline  
post #635 of 1121 Old 03-08-2010, 04:41 PM
Senior Member
 
mariokrt64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 476
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Home theater magazine review....mixed bag...

http://hometheatermag.com/frontproje...lcd_projector/
mariokrt64 is offline  
post #636 of 1121 Old 03-08-2010, 05:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Brian B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,290
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
"Even with the auto iris engaged, dark, low-contrast scenes are hazy enough to be distracting."

"the visible result wasthere's no other way to put thispoor. Dark, low-contrast scenes, such as the night scene aboard the tramp steamer in chapter 3 of Stargate: Continuum and the night scene in the Indian town in chapter 4 of Seven Years in Tibet, had a milky gray haze over them that is typical of LCD displays with poor shadow detail."

That is exactly what we've been experiencing Mariokrt64 and we aren't crazy.

Brian

PS So, does anyone wanna buy an HC6800 with <15 hours on it?
Brian B is offline  
post #637 of 1121 Old 03-08-2010, 06:38 PM
Senior Member
 
NYMN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
More pics - 'Surrogates' blu ray- decent flick and quality, but not reference.
LL
LL
LL
NYMN is offline  
post #638 of 1121 Old 03-08-2010, 06:39 PM
Senior Member
 
NYMN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Some from the Oscars
LL
LL
LL
NYMN is offline  
post #639 of 1121 Old 03-08-2010, 07:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
domingos1965's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,986
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYMN View Post

Some from the Oscars

what do u think of the picture quality of this projector?
worth the money?
also can u post pictures of some of th pixar movies like UP , KUNG FU PANDA etc etc
domingos1965 is offline  
post #640 of 1121 Old 03-08-2010, 08:56 PM
Newbie
 
cstone3636's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
From the looks of the blacks in those pictures posted I would say only the most highly critical viewer would be able to say the blacks aren't as good as what the reviewers think they should be. Appreciate you guys posting the shots. After taking about 6 weeks to decide which projector I was going with my Mits 6800 will be arriving on Thursday or Friday. To me the sharpness and clarity of the picture overrode the blacks not being 100 percent perfect.
cstone3636 is offline  
post #641 of 1121 Old 03-09-2010, 05:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
briandx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Lewes DE
Posts: 1,139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I've owned a CRT projector for 10 years so I know what real blacks look like.

I would agree with the review on Projector Central that blacks are very good, shadow detail is average to slightly above average (in my viewing room which always has some ambient light in it by design).

To me, the 6800 is the projector to beat in the $2K range because it has the following combination of advantages that other projectors in this price range don't have:

very dynamic picture without a "digital" look
very bright
very sharp
very quiet
suburb color when calibrated properly
great ergonomics (including true video blanking)
great DI system

I'll be very interested to finally see the review of this unit on Projector Reviews.

In summary, count me as one VERY happy 6800 owner.
briandx is offline  
post #642 of 1121 Old 03-09-2010, 10:47 AM
Senior Member
 
mariokrt64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 476
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by briandx View Post

I've owned a CRT projector for 10 years so I know what real blacks look like.

I would agree with the review on Projector Central that blacks are very good, shadow detail is average to slightly above average (in my viewing room which always has some ambient light in it by design).

To me, the 6800 is the projector to beat in the $2K range because it has the following combination of advantages that other projectors in this price range don't have:

very dynamic picture without a "digital" look
very bright
very sharp
very quiet
suburb color when calibrated properly
great ergonomics (including true video blanking)
great DI system

I'll be very interested to finally see the review of this unit on Projector Reviews.

In summary, count me as one VERY happy 6800 owner.

I take it you have not experience the "...gray..milky haze.." described in the HT Mag review.....I am experiencing that in dark scenes....

What screen are you using???...Can you post your calibration parameters??

I am glad you are very satisfied with your purchase...

Thanks.
mariokrt64 is offline  
post #643 of 1121 Old 03-09-2010, 12:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
larrimore's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 1,688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by briandx View Post

I've owned a CRT projector for 10 years so I know what real blacks look like.

I would agree with the review on Projector Central that blacks are very good, shadow detail is average to slightly above average (in my viewing room which always has some ambient light in it by design).

To me, the 6800 is the projector to beat in the $2K range because it has the following combination of advantages that other projectors in this price range don't have:

very dynamic picture without a "digital" look
very bright
very sharp
very quiet
suburb color when calibrated properly
great ergonomics (including true video blanking)
great DI system

I'll be very interested to finally see the review of this unit on Projector Reviews.

In summary, count me as one VERY happy 6800 owner.

I have been away from this thread for a long time (busy). However, I would concur with this assessment.

On the "milky" comments:

I actually think the issue is with the over brightness of the unit when new. In fact, I think I stated back in the beginning of the thread that it is so bright that it looks like a new plasma when there is nothing on the screen which lends to a feeling that the blacks are washed out. Well, I now have about 500 hours on my unit and it has really settled in and the blacks are much, much better. I think as the bulb ages and it dims a little, it greatly raises perceived blacks. I am so happy with mine (due to the comments Brian makes above), that I have completely quit reading reviews for any projectors- which is new for me, as in the past I was always looking for something "better". I am doing too much movie watching to spend time on the internet reading reviews.

Living the HT Dream...now in 4D.
larrimore is offline  
post #644 of 1121 Old 03-09-2010, 01:38 PM
Senior Member
 
NYMN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I agree! Even at about only 150 hours now, the blacks are better than when the pj was new. I'm thrilled I went with the Mits! Use it almost every night. HASSLE FREE!!!
NYMN is offline  
post #645 of 1121 Old 03-09-2010, 04:09 PM
Member
 
Studio2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 161
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYMN View Post

I agree! Even at about only 150 hours now, the blacks are better than when the pj was new. I'm thrilled I went with the Mits! Use it almost every night. HASSLE FREE!!!

I agree, I have been spending alot of time with this unit, and to me the blacks look very good.

I have approx 105 hours on mine. I set my projector in low lamp mode with Auto Iris on 5 and to me the blacks are most satisfying. Blacks look very similar to the pics posted and I dont miss anything with regards to shadow detail. I can see as much detail as my eyes will allow in dark scenes and dont feel it to be limiting at all.

I also agree with Brian that this unit has many other features going for it. What really pushed me on this unit was the natural image, but most importatnly the ease of switching between 16:9 and 2:35 via remote in an instant. Very Slick. All I do is switch on remote from 16:9 to Auto and whala my 135" width screen is filled with Cinemascope amazement.
Studio2000 is offline  
post #646 of 1121 Old 03-10-2010, 07:41 AM
Advanced Member
 
Dark Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 811
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
What kind of readings for gamma are those of you who calibrated getting in the low ires? How much flexibility do you have to change the gamma settings at each ire? Typically, if brightness and/or iris settings don't make the difference, the only other way to eek out better shadow detail is by trying to get a slightly brighter linear gamma curve in the low ires. If gamma drops or rises too suddenly from ire to ire, you get noise. If it stays too flat, you lose detail and get black crush.
Dark Rider is offline  
post #647 of 1121 Old 03-10-2010, 07:48 AM
Senior Member
 
NYMN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Some pics from I Am Legend - excellent quality blu ray!
LL
LL
LL
NYMN is offline  
post #648 of 1121 Old 03-10-2010, 07:50 AM
Senior Member
 
NYMN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Some more from I Am Legend.
LL
LL
LL
NYMN is offline  
post #649 of 1121 Old 03-10-2010, 07:52 AM
Senior Member
 
NYMN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
And for the fellow dog-lovers - A few shots of Sam.
LL
LL
LL
NYMN is offline  
post #650 of 1121 Old 03-12-2010, 12:59 AM
Newbie
 
blackibiza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi ppl,

im more one guy with luck. My HC6800 arrived yesterday. The firsts words i have for descrive the Mit are impressive, superb, delicious.

I cant understand why two guys in this thread say that the black are not so good, because my black are very good!
Possible this new one PJ have diferents firmware.
blackibiza is offline  
post #651 of 1121 Old 03-12-2010, 11:35 AM
Advanced Member
 
bucknuts07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 501
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Has anyone used this projector to game on ? I'm curious if the input lag will be an issue ? I play alot of call of duty MW2 and just curious if anybody has any firsthand experience with gaming on this projector

Xbox Live- bucknuts07

 

PSN-bucknuts07

bucknuts07 is offline  
post #652 of 1121 Old 03-12-2010, 03:22 PM
Senior Member
 
HDGreg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Santa Rosa Ca
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucknuts07 View Post

Has anyone used this projector to game on ? I'm curious if the input lag will be an issue ? I play alot of call of duty MW2 and just curious if anybody has any firsthand experience with gaming on this projector

My son plays on my hc6500 constantly...no lag whatsoever, even with a 30' hdmi cable. This should be the same way.

Life is short, don't wait...do it today!
HDGreg is offline  
post #653 of 1121 Old 03-13-2010, 03:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Brian B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,290
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
I realize this isn't the classified section, but for anyone interested, I put my projector up for sale in the Projector section. It is in "like new" condition and has less than 15 hours of use.

Thanks for looking,
Brian
Brian B is offline  
post #654 of 1121 Old 03-14-2010, 10:32 PM
Member
 
phipsi1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
@CT_Wiebe

Am in the process of constructing my first home theatre setup. I have already purchased a 100", 0.8 gain, matte white screen, and now I have the dilemma of trying to make my first projector purchase. As of the moment, I am based in the Philippines so my projector choices are quite limited. The projectors I am trying to compare are the Sanyo PLV-Z700 (approx $2,350 USD), Panasonic PTAE4000 (approx $2,830 USD), and the Mitsu HC6800 (approx $3,050 USD). I demo'ed the Mitsu HC3800 (approx $1,850 USD), which I really liked the PQ, BUT I was susceptible to the dreaded "rainbow effect". One of my favorite movies of all-time (Batman-The Dark Knight) was a "rainbow fest", so DLP is out of the question, although the price is very attractive for my budget.

Wanted to get your expert opinion on the Mitsu HC6800 compared to the other two projectors that I am scouting.
phipsi1 is offline  
post #655 of 1121 Old 03-15-2010, 01:12 AM
AVS Special Member
 
CT_Wiebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 6,437
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
phipsi1 -- The Sanyo is an older PJ than the other 2, and is not very bright (low lumen output), and I wouldn't consider it. Sanyo was bought up by Panasonic and did not introduce a new PJ last fall.

The AE4000 is a very good PJ, but does have more quality problems than the HC6800. It does have, reportedly, better black levels and more features (frame interpolation is the most significant). It's really a toss-up between the AE4000 and the HC6800. The HC6800 has a better warranty and better customer service.

Personally, I would prefer the HC6800. There are a lot of happy AE4000 owners, too. The bottom line is that it's your preference. I would look at all the positive and negative aspects of both, and make your judgment on capability, not at the price differential. Whichever one you get will be enjoyable.

- Claus {non-Santa model}
CT_Wiebe is offline  
post #656 of 1121 Old 03-15-2010, 12:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
CT_Wiebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 6,437
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
phipsi1 -- It is unfortunate that you are based in the Philippines (this bothered me all last night). It looks like it would cost you a significant premium to purchase a PJ where you are located.

Those prices are much higher than they are here in the USA. The (US) MSRP for the AE4000 is $1999, and the HC6800 is similarly priced lower. You also might check out the prices direct from Japan (they could also be lower - but I don't know the politics of that situation).

- Claus {non-Santa model}
CT_Wiebe is offline  
post #657 of 1121 Old 03-16-2010, 04:04 AM
Member
 
phipsi1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

phipsi1 -- It is unfortunate that you are based in the Philippines (this bothered me all last night). It looks like it would cost you a significant premium to purchase a PJ where you are located.

@CT_Wiebe

That is the situation and market conditions that I have to deal with now that I'm based in the Philippines. And to top that off, we do not get the outstanding rebate deals or free replacement bulbs that are offered on the projector units that are sold in the US. We only get the 1 year "in-house" warranty which has caused me to do in depth research on the store's after-sales support by inquiring with consumers who have bought the units that I have been interested in along with actually meeting the owners of these shops face-to-face to get a feel of their "attitudes" with clients.

Not to mention now, I have added another projector to the mix after being informed that it would be offered at the equivalent of $2,400 USD and that is the Epson TW3500 (the U.S. equivalent is the Epson 8100). The supposed lamp life of this unit of 4000 hours in normal or high power has me really interested simply because a replacement lamp in the Philippines will cost up to the equivalent of $550 USD. Hence this is a factor I must really contemplate into my purchase.

From my research I have found that the main issue with the HC6800 that is popped up is the "black levels" from what two posters have been mentioning and even one person wanting to sell his unit now because of this issue, BUT I have noticed that the HC6800 doesn't suffer from the random shut-down glitch as the HC3800 along with the fact that since the HC6800 is a 3LCD projector it doesn't suffer from RBE which I am extremely prone to from demo'ing the unit. Along with that, the HC6800 seems to offer a stronger fan output when it is turned on to help get rid of the dreaded "dust blobs", which seems to be an issue with the Panny PTAE4000. The main issues that have cropped up re the epson TW3500 (8100-US Vers) is the sensitivity of the lens shift, convergence issues, and focusing issues in which during the viewing period the focus is sharp, but when the viewer watches the next day the focus is lost. Overall, people are quite impressed with the PQ of this unit along with the supposed lamp life and the brightness it can output.

Now my shortlist has come down to the Panny PTAE4000 - approx $2,830 USD, Mitsu 6800 - approx $3,050 USD, & Epson TW5300 (8100-US vers.) - approx $2,400 USD! Almost tempted to go for the cheapest unit of the three, BUT to be honest I want the unit with the best: 1.) Picture Quality, 2.) Quality Assurance, and 3.) Budget Conscious.

Any input from you or any of the fellow avsforum brethren would be greatly appreciated.
phipsi1 is offline  
post #658 of 1121 Old 03-16-2010, 08:02 AM
Senior Member
 
HDGreg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Santa Rosa Ca
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
As an Mits hc6500 owner I am very happy. Prior to buying, I read the Mits 4900 forum, the Panny 2000 and 3000 forums and the entry Sony forums. For me, it seemed like there were very few "issues"with the Mits projectors...there have been only a couple unhappy owners in both the hc6500 amd hc6800 forums. Not so in the others..just my opinion. I will buy Mits again.

Life is short, don't wait...do it today!
HDGreg is offline  
post #659 of 1121 Old 03-16-2010, 09:31 PM
Newbie
 
cstone3636's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Just got my Mits 6800 up and running the other day and I"m 100 percent happy with the purchase after researching all these projectors over the last 2 months. The blacks are quite good enough for me and the clarity and brightness is awesome even in low mode. For those who are hesitating on pulling the trigger on this one I wouldn't hesitate. I"m sure you won't regret the purchase. Take Care
cstone3636 is offline  
post #660 of 1121 Old 03-21-2010, 11:08 AM
Newbie
 
d2e8b8's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Where are you guys buying this pj. Can't seem to find it on any of the usual sites including AV.
d2e8b8 is offline  
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Tags
Mitsubishi Hc6800 Projector
Gear in this thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off