CEDIA 2009: My take - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP > CEDIA 2009: My take
Jason Turk's Avatar Jason Turk 12:50 PM 09-11-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2060 View Post

Are you saying SMX has a new screen?

Yes...we have one on display. Designed for higher resolution projectors.

adpayne's Avatar adpayne 01:19 PM 09-11-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

For those of us unfamiliar with CFM, can someone provide some examples of what its pros and cons are? For example I often hear it is good for sports. It is supposed to make the movement smoother, or less blurry? If I saw a side by side demo of material with and without this technology how would they differ? And what is it that makes some people not like it, even with a good implementation?

You have never seen this at Best Buy, or at other electronics stores?

It adds created frames to smooth out motion. The picture looks clearer, and that can pose problems for filmed material, as it looks more like video. The effect is great for animation, and anything that was video based to begin with - like sports and documentaries. There can be side effects, and artifacts from the process though. A slow simple pan will probably look great, but if there are a lot of changes to the picture, there can be ghosting, etc.

Art
Deja Vu's Avatar Deja Vu 02:00 PM 09-11-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by adpayne View Post

You have never seen this at Best Buy, or at other electronics stores?

It adds created frames to smooth out motion. The picture looks clearer, and that can pose problems for filmed material, as it looks more like video. The effect is great for animation, and anything that was video based to begin with - like sports and documentaries. There can be side effects, and artifacts from the process though. A slow simple pan will probably look great, but if there are a lot of changes to the picture, there can be ghosting, etc.

Art

Right on the money! If you like concert films (Cream Reunion, Moody Blues, Eagles Farewell Tour etc.) then FI adds a sense of "being there" that is addictive and for me, at least, a must have.
f300v10's Avatar f300v10 02:07 PM 09-11-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony A. View Post

anything from planar? 8150 replacement or "tweaked" version?

I posted this in another thread, but it appears the Planar projector line may have been shifted to the Runco brand, which is now owned by Planar. Not sure what if any changes have been made to the 8130/50 other than a new name:

http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/cedia2...co_lightstyle/
Matts's Avatar Matts 02:20 PM 09-11-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Any reports on the E&S 8K/2D and 4K/3D laser projector demo?

Or the JVC 4K projector demo;
Engadget; JVC puts 4K DLA-RS4000 projector in your home... for just $175,000

JVC whole press release;
JVC INTRODUCES DLA-RS4000 HIGH-END 4K HOME CINEMA PROJECTOR AT CEDIA EXPO 2009



screenshots:




the 4k JVC projector was incredible. I didn't spend a lot of time watching it, mainly because JVC was just shwoing a slideshow of still photographs. You literally couldn't see the pixels even standing within a foot of the screen.
Matts's Avatar Matts 02:24 PM 09-11-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherardp View Post

Nice 1st impressions and reviews. Did you get to see the FI working on the new JVC PJs? If so, what are your thoughts? I have the RS10 now and am wondering if the upgrade is worthwhile. Any thoughts are appreciated. Wish I could have made it out.

They only demoed the FI CMF feature in one room and it was basically just on a white board. They had two JVC RS25 projectors showing a train running across the screen. You could clearly see the train detail loss on the projector that did not have the feature engaged. On the projector with the FI engaged it was very smooth and you could see the people through the windows on the train, where as on the projector with the FI engaged you could not see the people. It worked very well.
Matts's Avatar Matts 02:29 PM 09-11-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty/twenty View Post

Nice review Matts,

Sounds a lot like my experience with the JVC 750 at last year's Cedia.

Did JVC have any 2.35 to one material in the demo?

If so, did JVC use the zoom method or did they use an anamorphic lens?

Did you get the Stewart screen material used for the demo?

They showed the Fast and Furious trailer and Funny People trailer on 2:35:1. It was very impressive I think the screen was somewhere between 10-12 feet not sure about the kind of screen other than I am almost positive it was a custom Stewart screen with special masking from the sides. The anamorphic lens was a panamorph lens and they basically showed every thing demo wise with the panamorph lens engaged.


Matts's Avatar Matts 02:37 PM 09-11-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbarron View Post

Matts:

As most reviews last year agreed the RS10 surpassed the 6500UB in black levels by more than a slight margin, and both manufacturers (seems like all) have optimized existing fundamental platforms with evolutionary changes only, it now seems inconsistent that the new Epson would be so close to the RS15 per your comments after observing both. Both would likely have 'evolved' a bit leaving a remaining non-insignificant gap. As your ability to observe was not side by side, what is the likelihood that viewing conditions or otherwise distorted your ability to compare differences and the same/similar gap as previous exists?

Regards
db

That is a good point. Without viewing them side by side it is difficult to give an accurate impression without some bias. I would say that the Epson 9500 has really improved on their black levels and native contrast. That was more than obvious in the demo Of course JVC and the RS15 had already set the benchmark very high and EPSON is still catching up. I would say that the RS15 still has the better native contrast and the blacks on the RS15 are still ahead of the EPSON. I believe that the gap is closing to the point where unless you have both projectors side by side with the same, well very close, settings, gamma, color temp, brightness, iris setting, etc, that there is not the same night and day difference or advantage that the RS1 and RS2 had over the competition. Still though at the end of the day if I had to pick based on contrast, depth and black levels I would have favored the RS15. I do think something has to be sad for how far EPSON has come in really such a short period of time. The whole package on the 9500, including the color points made for a very formidable opponent.
Matts's Avatar Matts 02:44 PM 09-11-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baenwort View Post

Hello Matts,

Any chance you got to see the new Infocus SP projector? From what I can read it has a great placement flexibility due to it's lens shift but I haven't been able to find anything about how well the new .65 DLP chip is working as far as sharpness, blacklevel, and CA.

I did not get to the Infocus booth. I really would like to demo the SP8006 when and if I can go back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Matts,

Thanks for the very nice writeup of your impressions.

Were the JVC's all showing the same material? If so, can you say how close the RS15 got to the RS25's shadow detail?

I would say the shadow detail was very close on both models. Perhaps the RS25 revealed a bit more, especially in very difficult low light scenes, but the RS15 held it's own. I was surprised by how much shadow detail both the RS15 and RS25 revealed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony A. View Post

anything from planar? 8150 replacement or "tweaked" version?

I did not see Planar on the floor. They may have been like Runco and in a separate room. I know that Runco was only allowing dealers to enter their room.
Greg Young's Avatar Greg Young 02:47 PM 09-11-2009
Anything to report on the Sim2 booth. How did the C3X and Lumis look compared to the new projectors?
Matts's Avatar Matts 04:31 PM 09-11-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Young View Post

Anything to report on the Sim2 booth. How did the C3X and Lumis look compared to the new projectors?

Oh man I will have to try and find them this weekend when I go back. Oh if I only had the cash and a big enough wallet.

I think SIM2 is holding a media event this weekend in one of the rooms. Lets just say that as I walking the halls and peeking into the private rooms that were setup off the floor, I couldn't help but notice one very large room with a huge at least 30 foot screen. It was right next to the Monster Corp room and lets just say that the buzz that was being generated by people walking buy was huge. Of course after a few moments of peering into the room, some nice lady shut the doors. Oh well I guess what ever they were setting up wasn't for my eyes.
chadly25's Avatar chadly25 05:14 PM 09-11-2009
I saw the Sim2 demo and it was pretty impressive. The worst part of the demo (Lumis) was they played F&F4 and I was distracted by the terrible acting.

The new JVC's were impressive too. I also heard from JVC that the only mechanical differences between the 25 and 35 were they hand picked the best chips for the 35 and there wasn't a difference in the technology. a waste of money imho to go for the 35 but I'm sure they'll sell a ton.

The Runco LED projector looked good too. They claimed some crazy number of like 2million to 1 CR. They then played the opening scene from Cars when it goes from image to black. It was hilarious, everytime the image went to black (and it was black) the crowd ohed and ahed. However they neglected to notice that when the image was on the screen and the lamp wasn't off the black bars were VERY noticable. They would have done themselves a huge favor to have either shown 16:9 material only or they should have put a lens on it. I asked the engineer after the show what the real CR was when the dynamic was set to off and the real number was around 2500:1. Not the leaps and bounds I was hoping for but still it was an impressive projector overall. I guess I just got let down a bit by the promise of "great blacks" by my rep. Oh well.

The Sony 85 looked really nice too. The contrast was much improved over the previous models and had a very impressive display of colors (oversaturated on purpose but very punchy and not very irritating). I heard a rumor that the native was around 30k and I wouldn't doubt it.
Kimwyn's Avatar Kimwyn 05:49 PM 09-11-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

what is the price point of the RS25?

anyone?
ninja12's Avatar ninja12 06:06 PM 09-11-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

anyone?

I saw some where it's $7999.
Kevin McCarthy's Avatar Kevin McCarthy 06:23 PM 09-11-2009
"anyone?"

You need to call Jason.

Kevin
hvn4179's Avatar hvn4179 07:31 PM 09-11-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

anyone?

From Jason's sticky -

PRICING (MSRP):
The DLA-RS15 will be $5495 retail and shipping mid September. The DLA-RS25 will be $7995 and be shipping 3rd week in September. The DLA-RS35 will be $9995 retail, and shipping later this year. Note: The RS35 is a limited distribution due to the build process and each will include a certificate stating the hand picked choices. Pretty slick for those who want the best.
Kimwyn's Avatar Kimwyn 07:41 PM 09-11-2009
thanks a lot.
JustMike's Avatar JustMike 10:27 PM 09-11-2009
FYI, you didn't miss the Panasonic. I asked at their booth, and they said they were not showing any projectors at the show this year.

When you go back to look for the Sony, just look for the room with the words "Installers Only" above the door, and go in there. They're intending to restrict the VW-85 to the installer market only... It looked good, but they had a crappy (IMO) selection of demo material, focusing mostly on Speed Racer (yech) and some HD video. I wish I'd had Dark Knight with me.
widerscreen's Avatar widerscreen 02:28 AM 09-12-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMike View Post

FYI, you didn't miss the Panasonic. I asked at their booth, and they said they were not showing any projectors at the show this year.

When you go back to look for the Sony, just look for the room with the words "Installers Only" above the door, and go in there. They're intending to restrict the VW-85 to the installer market only... It looked good, but they had a crappy (IMO) selection of demo material, focusing mostly on Speed Racer (yech) and some HD video. I wish I'd had Dark Knight with me.

why wasn't Panasonic showing pjs?
4000?
Richard Tywoniak's Avatar Richard Tywoniak 02:56 AM 09-12-2009
If anyone has a chance to compare the Sony the following measurements were just provided on the Sony thread

Calibrated Cinema mode, manual iris (50%) 19.620:1 18.650:1
Calibrated Cinema mode, with dynamic iris 65.523:1 57.080:1
ANSI contrast (contrast of checkerboard pattern) 403:1 398:1

The reviewer seemed to like the Sony better than the 750 - mostly for ANSI Contrast.

Any feedback form CEDIA will be helpful - and yes we all know that any viewpoints will not be close to reliable information from professionals in a controlled room. However, keep them coming - they are helpful.

Sony Post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1171190&page=5
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FoxyMulder's Avatar FoxyMulder 05:31 AM 09-12-2009
So i guess the reason the Epson rep didn't want to switch the iris on was because you would then have heard how loud it was ?

Or am i way off base on that one.
jcg's Avatar jcg 08:40 AM 09-12-2009
Anyone hear if AVS will be doing a powerbuy or whatever it's called on the RS15 or RS25?

jcg

Quote:
Originally Posted by hvn4179 View Post

From Jason's sticky -

PRICING (MSRP):
The DLA-RS15 will be $5495 retail and shipping mid September. The DLA-RS25 will be $7995 and be shipping 3rd week in September. The DLA-RS35 will be $9995 retail, and shipping later this year. Note: The RS35 is a limited distribution due to the build process and each will include a certificate stating the hand picked choices. Pretty slick for those who want the best.


Ericglo's Avatar Ericglo 08:42 AM 09-12-2009
I have no idea about the SMX screen. I will take a look at it again, but it looks to be better than the Seymour screen with a finer pattern. I think both looked better than the Stewart acoustic screen. I could see the perfs on the Stewart at six or seven feet. Honestly, the SMX screen during the demo was the first time I have ever seen an acoustic screen that I thought was good enough to use. I know I had an issue with Ruben when he first started, but water under the bridge. He really has done a nice job with this screen. Oh, if you go to the demo, then be ready for a loud demo. The Cinepro guys had the volume turned up. It wasn't uncomfortable, but I heard some say they would have liked it to be lower.

On LEDS, I think I saw all of them except the Runco, but Darin talked to the Runco guy for about fifteen minutes. They look nice, but there not ready for prime time. Almost everyone admitted that they just wanted to get something out the door. I believe everyone said the same thing, wait till next year to see what we do.
lovingdvd's Avatar lovingdvd 08:46 AM 09-12-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcg View Post

Anyone hear if AVS will be doing a powerbuy or whatever it's called on the RS15 or RS25?

jcg

Yes call Jason at AVS.
Greg Young's Avatar Greg Young 09:31 AM 09-12-2009
Anyone check out the d-dox demos?
Victor's Avatar Victor 09:55 AM 09-12-2009
Going to CEDEA I was pretty sure that I’m going to order 990/35, but it is not that clear now:

Yesterday I spent considerable amount of time looking at WV85 and RS35/HD990.
OOB Sony looks better then JVC. I've talked with couple of other people at CEDEA and they've got the same impression. Although “default” presentation at the Sony booth looked oversaturated (WV85 was demoed in Wide2 color mode), after turning it to “normal” color mode the picture looked pretty natural with high intrascene contrast ratio. Image looked pretty close to what I’ve seen in the Sims2 Lumis demo (excluding deeper blacks). Sony representative claimed that they achieved 40000:1 native on/off CR.
My only concern it that RCP and probably gamma adjustment(I obviously couldn't test it there) still wasn't improved since VW50 times, so if I’d like to finetune it, I’d be out of luck.

JVC picture seems have some ugly yellowish tint, although gray scale looked good. It also looked like there is some issue with gamma, or may be it was just poor ANSI contrast issue.
I didn't notice much better JVC black level, but it is unfair to compare this aspect in different environments.
lovingdvd's Avatar lovingdvd 10:03 AM 09-12-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor View Post

Going to CEDEA I was pretty sure that I'm going to order 990/35, but it is not that clear now:

Yesterday I spent considerable amount of time looking at WV85 and RS35/HD990.
OOB Sony looks better then JVC. I've talked with couple of other people at CEDEA and they've got the same impression. Although default presentation at the Sony booth looked oversaturated (WV85 was demoed in Wide2 color mode), after asking to show the projector in normal color mode the picture looked pretty natural with high intrascene contract ratio. Image looked pretty close to what I've seen in Sims2 Lumis demo (excluding deeper blacks). Sony representative claimed that they achieved 40000:1 native on/off CR.
My only concern it that RCP and probably gamma adjustment still not improved from VW50 times, so if I'd like to finetune it, I'd be out of luck.

JVC picture seems have some ugly yellowish tint, although gray scale looks good. It also looks like there is some issue with gamma - just looks wrong.
I didn't notice much better JVC black level, but it is unfair to compare this aspect in different environments.

That is encouraging. Thanks for the report. Regarding the CR, a report here in the forums says the native CR of the VW85 was measured at 20,000:1 so the 40,000:1 may not be accurate.

The concern about RCP and no real CMS is very significant and I agree completely. I need a fully working CMS. The JVC has excellent gamma and calibration controls. If the picture had a yellow tint to it I would be shocked if this could not be corrected via calibration.

What type of demo material did you see running on the VW85? Others reported it was only animation?
Victor's Avatar Victor 10:05 AM 09-12-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Young View Post

Anyone check out the d-dox demos?

Yes. I loved it. The only thing I noticed is extra vibrations, but it may be just a part of the demo (bee movie)
Victor's Avatar Victor 10:12 AM 09-12-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

That is encouraging. Thanks for the report. Regarding the CR, a report here in the forums says the native CR of the VW85 was measured at 20,000:1 so the 40,000:1 may not be accurate.

The concern about RCP and no real CMS is very significant and I agree completely. I need a fully working CMS. The JVC has excellent gamma and calibration controls. If the picture had a yellow tint to it I would be shocked if this could not be corrected via calibration.

What type of demo material did you see running on the VW85? Others reported it was only animation?

I've seen:
Sony: Speed racer, Quantum of solace, some shots of Paris and nature
JVS: Drag Me to Hell, Funny People, ...

I'd love to see JVC fully calibrated and compare it to calibrated (to the extent it can be done) Sony. I personally sick and tired of Sony calibration controls
b.greenway's Avatar b.greenway 10:25 AM 09-12-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Young View Post

Anything to report on the Sim2 booth. How did the C3X and Lumis look compared to the new projectors?

Saw a Stevie Wonder concert clip on the Lumis, good stuff, sounded pretty good through that Krell system as well. I could tell the difference between a new black shirt and one that had been launderd just a few times. I missed Sim2 last year but the optics seemed noticeably clearer than the C3X demo the year prior (not sure if they actually changed them). This proj/demo was easily in my top 2 or 3 of the show.
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