CEDIA 2009: My take - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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My trip to CEDIA started early this afternoon. I was very interested to see just how far the industry has come in a years worth of time. Because this is the Front Projector forum I will keep my comments mostly geared in that direction. Suffice to say that people who are looking to upgrade in the audio and blu-ray disc area will also be very happy.





First Impression

I have never been to CEDIA before so I did not know quite what to expect. The event was held at the Georgia World Congress Center, which is a massive building. Much of the event was concentrated on the main floor, but a few companies, Runco and JVC were located in other areas of the building away from the main floor, al though JVC did have a booth on the main floor, slightly smaller of course. The booths were all set up very nicely and it was easy to find all the key players. Mitsubishi and Panasonic, as well as EPSON seemed to have the larger booths and no surprise the most people.

Mitsubishi had two new models



Mitsubishi had two new models on display, as well as the high end HC7000 which appears to be unchanged from last year. I was told that the HC7000 is still the flagship model at least for another year.


The first new model is the Mitsubishi HC6800 LCD (3 chip) 1080P projector, which will replace the HC6500 from last year. The projector has the same casing as the HC6500 but is brighter, with a higher native contrast. The HC680 uses an auto iris to achieve an on/off contrast of 30,000:1. Upon viewing the projector my first thoughts were how much it reminded me of the HC6500. In fact if they hadn't specifically told me that it was the new model I would have though it was the HC6500. I could tell no discernable difference in picture performance over last years model. The iris closes a bit more tightly, but that was about the only thing that really jumped out at me. Otherwise the performance seemed solid, but not a night and day difference over last years model.

Mitsubishi HC3800 DLP (1 chip) 1080P Projector



There is already a thread on this projector as well as a few other reviews so I will be brief. I was very impressed with the HC3800. The picture was arguably one of the sharpest most detailed pictures I have ever seen from a projector that sells for less than $2,000 MSRP. It was stunning how much detail this projector produces. The colors are also very close to REC 709. Perhaps a bit wider, but not nearly as much as one might think. I was also in amazement at how quiet the projector ran, weird for a DLP. The blacks were solid, not in the same ballpark as JVC, but nothing that stood out as to make you think that you were being cheated. I really think that Mitsubishi stole the show in this price division. This projector will find its way into many a homes this fall. Well done.

JVC Impressions (OMG)







First off JVC took advantage of setting up their main room away from the main floor. They were setup in the OMNI HOTEL section that connects to the GWCC. This obviously makes it a lot easier to control ambient lighting and really give an almost perfect demo. Many other companies didn't have this advantage. First up I looked at the RS15, which will become the entry level DILA machine. I want get into the numbers, as you all are obviously aware of the numbers. The contrast on the RS15 is 30,000:1 on/off and that is a native number, no auto iris. The RS15 was brilliant. The colors may have been just a tad bit over saturated, but not by much to my eyes. The picture was razor sharp, and the blacks were well black. The depth in the picture was off the charts.



Moving up a notch to the RS25 and of course you get THX and ISF certification. You also get a higher on/off contrast of 50,000:1 and the benefit of a CMS and pre-calibrated THX mode so that the projector will be as close to perfect right out of the box. I watched a few trailers, mainly Funny People. The blacks were as good as any digital projector I have seen. It really is difficult to explain how good the picture looked. What also amazed me was how much shadow detail was still present. Normally this is one area where you would expect on marginal performance from this kind of high contrast projector, but it was there. The shadows beneath the bushes, the different color graduations in the leaves the natural flesh tones. Everything was just right.
And finally there is the RS35. This is basically the same projector, expect you pay a premium for the hand selected parts, optics, polarizer’s, lens, etc. I have to say to my eyes I could not tell any difference in the RS25 and the RS35. Now please understand that this is simply one man’s opinion. But after going back and forth from each room, I could not see anything that looked any different. Maybe there is some difference, but I could not see it.
One last thing the contrast numbers I quoted were the contrast numbers listed by JVC at the event. So perhaps they will change at the final production date. I don’t know I can only report what I saw. One more thing I would like to say about all of the JVC projectors. They are all very sharp. This is coming from somebody that watches a Marantz VP11S1 nightly. I did not find these projectors to be soft in any way shape or form. They looked in fact just as sharp as my Marantz. I will say that I did not get to see the JVC RS10 and RS20. So perhaps they have improved on the optics and made the projectors sharper. Since I do not own a previous JVC projector, I really cannot comment. But these projectors the RS15, RS25 and RS35 were absolutely sharp and crystal clear, but also very film like.

Screenshot of RS25


EPSON (THX Pending).




One of the biggest surprises from the event was that the new EPSON HC9500 is pending THX certification. The projector is black, well dark gray. It is basically the same shape and chassis from last years 7500. It is very quiet. One thing up front. The demo that I saw was presented without the auto iris. I asked if the unit auto iris could be engage, but the EPSON rep would not change any settings. So I am sorry for those of you that were wondering about the loudness of the auto iris I will unfortunately not be able to comment on that. I can comment on the picture. The picture was amazing. Even without the auto iris engaged the contrast was solid. In fact the blacks looked just as deep, or certainly within a few hairs of that of the JVC RS15. The first piece of material they showed was an underwater scene from Planet Earth. This scene absolutely rocked. The clarity and vivid details were mind-boggling.
When the underwater swimmer went into a cave the blacks, truly looked like the edge of the abyss. The blacks were solid and deep, with no loss of shadow detail and no gray protruding into the scene. The projector was very sharp and you could make out every single little bubble that made its way through the water. I would say that the EPSON was very close to the JVC RS15. It is certainly closing the gap, much quicker than I thought. The RS25 and RS35 (again I could tell no difference) really cannot be compared in this regard. Still though one could very easily argue that the ESPON is certainly the value champion in this regard.

CONCLUSION
Obviously there was a lot of other stuff, and other projectors for that matter that I saw briefly, but for the sake of space and time I will not comment on unless somebody has a question. I did not see the Panasonic AE4000 projector. If it was there I missed it, sorry about that. What I did see I liked, and the honest truth of the matter is that everything I wrote about above I would have been more than happy to have taken home and even paid retail for. All of the projectors really were amazing.
In short this is how I left feeling.
Mitsubishi HC6800: Solid, sharp, good contrast. Nothing earth shattering new here. If you own the HC6500 there is absolutely no good reason I can think of for you to upgrade. Unless you just like spending money. If on the other hand you want to take the plunge into the Front Projector market, this machine is not a bad way to get your feet wet.

Mitsubishi HC3800 DLP (single chip): Exceptional value. I was really amazed at what $1,500.00 will get you these days. Very sharp and detailed. Very good contrast, not the best, but not once did I look at the picture by itself and think I was being cheated. I really think Mitsubishi hit a home run with this projector. Well done. Well done. * One small caveat. This projector uses a color wheel. It only spins at 4x the speed. So for those people who find themselves sensitive to color separation (Rainbows) you may want to spend a little time watching this machine first, before you buy) I did not see any rainbows while viewing. But other people in the room said they could see them. I don’t know. I didn’t see them. If you are sensitive in this area, this may not be the projector for you.)

JVC RS15 DILA (3 chip): Deep very convincing blacks. Very close to accurate color. Improved sharpness and optics. Quiet as a peep. The best value in the JVC line. If they would have let me I would have taken it home, after payment of course.

JVC RS25 DILA (3 chip): The best blacks and detail I have seen from any projector that doesn’t require a second mortgage. I was surprised by how much shadow detail I could see. I was not expecting this. Very sharp, not the least bit soft. Very film like. CFM works very smoothly and al though I am not a big fan in this area. If you do like this sort of thing, then it works flawlessly. Best projector I saw.

JVC RS35 DILA (3 chip): Please do not shoot the messenger, I beg of you. I saw no differences in the RS25 and RS35. If they were there I could not see them. Sorry.

ESPSON 9500 3 chip LCD: THX pending. Very accurate colors. Very bright, crisp and detailed picture. Excellent contrast, even without the auto iris engaged. It does appear that this projector has a very strong native contrast. Perhaps the best projector in terms of high contrast and value. Though I will say it’s close. The only thing that puts the EPSON perhaps a tad ahead of the JVC RS15 is that the colors on the EPSON are spot on.
That’s pretty much it. I will post some more pics later. It was a very nicely done event.
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post #2 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 05:19 PM
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Thanks for taking the time and effort to post.

Fun to read about the next wave.

When you feel the impact you know you are there.
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post #3 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 05:20 PM
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Nice summary. Did you see the Sony VW85? It's price is about the same as the JVC RS25.
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post #4 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 05:21 PM
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Thank you very much Matts! It was a pleasure reading your detailed, enthusiastic report.
It got to all the types of issues we AV-nuts like to read about.

BTW, is it possible the JVC projectors were displayed with their frame interpolation on?
Did you happen to ask? That would sharpen up the picture.
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post #5 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Thank you very much Matts! It was a pleasure reading your detailed, enthusiastic report.
It got to all the types of issues we AV-nuts like to read about.

BTW, is it possible the JVC projectors were displayed with their frame interpolation on?
Did you happen to ask? That would sharpen up the picture.

Yes I did ask. They had a separate booth where they were showing an RS25 with the FI feature on and off. It was just basically one on top of the other on a white board. It had a train going by one after another. The top projector had the feature on, the bottom projector had the feature off. I could tell that the feature was working and made a big difference in how smooth the motion was. Unfortunately none of the other projectors had the feature engaged. So I could not really get the benefit of watching a basketball game or something like that. I could tell that the feature was doing it's job but they did not have much material on.
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post #6 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 05:33 PM
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i love you. i'm not gay, but just sayin. everyone was steering me to dlp since i have a dlp rp now and dlp has better placement flexibility. but after seeing a sony lcos last weekend and now your review of the rs25...

what screen was the 25 matched with?
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post #7 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fatjulio View Post

Nice summary. Did you see the Sony VW85? It's price is about the same as the JVC RS25.

I did not see the Sony WV85. I looked for Sony, but could not locate their booth. I ended up spending too much time in the JVC area and I kinda had to rush to get out of there towards the end. I really did want to see the Sony, but by the end of the day I had exhausted myself in other areas and did not have the time to search around for Sony. It is possible that Sony may have been set up in another area of the building.

BTW Runco had a booth off the main floor. The only reason I did not post anything about Runco is that they were only allowing dealers into their room. So since I am not a dealer, I was not allowed access.
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post #8 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts View Post

Yes I did ask. They had a separate booth where they were showing an RS25 with the FI feature on and off. It was just basically one on top of the other on a white board. It had a train going by one after another. The top projector had the feature on, the bottom projector had the feature off. I could tell that the feature was working and made a big difference in how smooth the motion was. Unfortunately none of the other projectors had the feature engaged. So I could not really get the benefit of watching a basketball game or something like that. I could tell that the feature was doing it's job but they did not have much material on.

Thanks for your observations - too bad they didn't have some sports material to demo the FI feature - probably the most likely time one would use it...
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post #9 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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The other pic of the Epson did not turn out so great. Here is a better shot.

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post #10 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DedicatedHT View Post

i love you. i'm not gay, but just sayin. everyone was steering me to dlp since i have a dlp rp now and dlp has better placement flexibility. but after seeing a sony lcos last weekend and now your review of the rs25...

what screen was the 25 matched with?

The RS25 was using a Stewart screen, with special masking system.
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post #11 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 05:53 PM
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Any word on what Sanyo is up to this time around? Seems like every other projector has their cards on the table. Any info on Sanyo's plans for 2009 would be great. Thanks!
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post #12 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 05:55 PM
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Did the Epson have the FI turned on and did they demo any sports on the epson?
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post #13 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvectord View Post

Did the Epson have the FI turned on and did they demo any sports on the epson?

No sports.

The FI was turned on when the rep showed the blu-ray Iron Man. When Iron Man is flying through the air and gets shot down by the missile, I could tell just how well the FI feature worked. It did make the movement a lot smoother. But it also made it look less like film. Again I am not much into this feature. I know that many on here are, and for those that were hoping for a fix, I saw a flawless implementation of the feature on both the EPSON and the JVC.
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post #14 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LordofDoubleD View Post

Any word on what Sanyo is up to this time around? Seems like every other projector has their cards on the table. Any info on Sanyo's plans for 2009 would be great. Thanks!

Sanyo did have a booth. I unfortunately ran short on time. I do plan to go back on Saturday. I will do my best to try and get to the booths that I missed.

I can tell you that some of the booths, such as Samsung and Panasonic showed off their flat panels more than they did their projectors. In fact Samsung had a very nice LED LCD on display. But they were not set up for the their front projectors.

Here is a pic of the Sammy, very nice.
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post #15 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts View Post

Sanyo did have a booth. I unfortunately ran short on time. I do plan to go back on Saturday. I will do my best to try and get to the booths that I missed.

I can tell you that some of the booths, such as Samsung and Panasonic showed off their flat panels more than they did their projectors. In fact Samsung had a very nice LED LCD on display. But they were not set up for the their front projectors.

Here is a pic of the Sammy, very nice.
]

Matts,
Glad to hear Sanyo has a booth - any info you can get out of them would be great - I'll keep checking this thread - thanks!
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post #16 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 06:53 PM
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It would be nice to know what setting the FI was on. Low, High? I have a Sony rear projection sxrd tv and I don't find the lower setting to be that bad, however I don't like the high mode.
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post #17 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts View Post

JVC RS35 DILA (3 chip): Please do not shoot the messenger, I beg of you. I saw no differences in the RS25 and RS35. If they were there I could not see them. Sorry.

It makes sense that JVC would have a carefully hand-picked RS25 for an important unveiling like this, in which case the components in the RS25 could be as good or even better than the components in the RS35.
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post #18 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 07:39 PM
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Matts,
Can you say according to what you've seen, that EPSON HC9500 is the BRIGHTEST projector for Home Theater at CEDIA 2009? How big is the screen at demo?
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Originally Posted by hrd View Post

It makes sense that JVC would have a carefully hand-picked RS25 for an important unveiling like this, in which case the components in the RS25 could be as good or even better than the components in the RS35.

this is an honestly serious question no bashing intended..i say this because its hard to read people in text..

are you saying the final 25 production models may NOT have these "hand picked" components or look as good and we STILL have to wait for production reviews?? I ask because I have not seen JVC's anywhere in town and pretty much HAVE to rely on what I read
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwanrs View Post

Matts,
Can you say according to what you've seen, that EPSON HC9500 is the BRIGHTEST projector for Home Theater at CEDIA 2009? How big is the screen at demo?

In terms of brightness I would rank what I saw in this order:

ESPSON 9500 and JVC RS25/RS35 were very close in brightness. Forget specs. What my eyes saw was that both had plenty of lumens to fill a 133" 2:35:1 screen, which is what they were demoed on BTW. If I had to guess I would say the EPSON may be the brightest of the two, maybe more so over the length of the bulbs life. But it is really close.

JVC RS15 was equally as bright, though it was on a smaller 16:9 screen

The Mits HC3800 was very bright, but on a smaller screen then the EPSON and JVC.

FWIW all of the projectors I saw looked like they plenty of lumens to spare, even after several hundred hours on the bulb. Though keep in mind the JVC models and the EPSON 9500 were shown in 100% light controlled BAT caves. The Mits models were not.
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post #21 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 07:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hrd View Post

It makes sense that JVC would have a carefully hand-picked RS25 for an important unveiling like this, in which case the components in the RS25 could be as good or even better than the components in the RS35.

You would think that the gap between RS15 & RS25 is more obvious and they'd have focused on showcasing the RS35 as the top dog- and being careful it came across this way easily.
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post #22 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 08:05 PM
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Thanks for the report! Appreciate your time!
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post #23 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 08:13 PM
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Finally a dedicated CEDIA thread!

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post #24 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 08:14 PM
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Finally a dedicated CEDIA thread!

my thoughts exactly.
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post #25 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 08:20 PM
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First thanks for the great reviews and thoughts!

Secondly - OT - do you know which samsung that is? Is that their remote that can show the picture in the background (so it is the 9000 model that was scraped for this year?) sorry can't resist asking
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post #26 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
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First thanks for the great reviews and thoughts!

Secondly - OT - do you know which samsung that is? Is that their remote that can show the picture in the background (so it is the 9000 model that was scraped for this year?) sorry can't resist asking

That is a Creston remote. Did not get a good shot of it.

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post #27 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 08:36 PM
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I will be another to say thank you very much for taking your time and pictures and bringing them to us. Not sure why but CEDIA coverage seems scarce this year.

Did you by chance get an eye on the Epson 8100? Would really be curious how it compares to the Mits 3800 since they will be around the same price and you seemed to be pleasantly surprised by the Mits.
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post #28 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 08:39 PM
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Thanks!
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post #29 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 09:11 PM
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I can't add to much as I only went to a few demos. The Dalite/Samsung 900 demo was nice. I really did like this pj. I believe Ken calibrated it. I need to see it with the lights on, but the jkp screen looked really good.

Sim2 had the led pj running. It was pretty good, but probably not worth the $25k at this point.

Panamorph had the 950 and their lenses. The new JVC looks ok, but was ruined by the rape of Indy scenes.

Cineramax was showing his pj with SMX. The new screen looks really good and I saw no perfs at more than a couple of feet distance. The Barco modded pj was probably the best image, but it will cost you.

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post #30 of 196 Old 09-10-2009, 09:15 PM
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hrd:

But it also makes even more sense for JVC to have hand-picked BOTH the RS25 and the RS35, IMO.

They HAVE to display a $2K PQ difference between the RS25 and the RS35.

Otherwise, how could they expect to sell an RS35 to anyone (even super anal AVSers) ???
Elkhunter is offline  
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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