Optoma HD8600 - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 660 Old 10-31-2010, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lehis View Post

Hehe, who would have guessed that new HD87 has also firmware 1.11. 24fps works though now as expected and there is no need to use pure motion any more to get fluid movement. Otherwise it is hard to tell if there is any difference to HD86 with firmware 1.11. Nice move this from Optoma to euro users.

Out of curiosity I've checked the box to see if HD86 is printed on it. Seems not. It's easy to change the model number by changing the labels on the sticker that's put on the box and projector with the serial and model nr on it... I've found no mention of the model in the firmware. I wonder if someone with a laptop with HDMI can connect it to a HD87 and look with what model number it reports back to the laptop?
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post #452 of 660 Old 11-01-2010, 12:26 PM
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Both HD86 and HD87 seem to be identified as HD86 in MacBookPro connected via Minidisplayport to DVI adapter and DVI to HDMI cable.
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post #453 of 660 Old 11-01-2010, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lehis View Post

Both HD86 and HD87 seem to be identified as HD86 in MacBookPro connected via Minidisplayport to DVI adapter and DVI to HDMI cable.

Thanks ! well it might be that the hd87 is the hd86 with firmware 1.11. Maybe user can ask to "upgrade" to the HD87 when they deny there's an update for the HD86?
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post #454 of 660 Old 11-06-2010, 05:20 AM
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Hello, I'm waiting now for a HD87, replacing my BenQ W6500.
I hope it will be better sharpness that the Benq !
Wait & see...

Par Toutatis !
Asterix !
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post #455 of 660 Old 11-16-2010, 04:13 PM
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Tom,


Any information on the 24p issues? Also did you purchase the 8600 and if so have you experienced the same issues we are referring to?

Thanks, RAS
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post #456 of 660 Old 11-16-2010, 07:45 PM
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Nothing new, as is now they're sure the firmware works which is has. Can't figure why some Euro owners had trouble. As far as buying, I'm trying to figure the throw distance. My new house setup is pretty short. It works with this Mits HC6500 I snagged but I'm really not a LCD guy if you know what I mean. Flat not so 3D like a good DLP.

You see DLP's have the ability to have mirrors off or on at different points of any image which is the key advantage. Very high ansi is the result.

If I'm able to fit the HD8600 I'd get it with the new firmware installed or I could use the files I have. Hope it fits, we'll see.

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post #457 of 660 Old 11-17-2010, 05:41 AM
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Hmm, I believe it was most of the euro users that found the firmware did not work. Personnally after seeing HD86 with old and new firmware and HD87 I feel HD87 is all in all much better working machine. It is the pj HD86 should have been in the first place. I wonder what if this new 1.11 firmware was never actually designed for HD86 at all but was mentioned to be firmware for HD87 all along? It seems after trick like this from Optoma the trust is almost gone even though the HD87 is great.
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post #458 of 660 Old 11-17-2010, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lehis View Post

Hmm, I believe it was most of the euro users that found the firmware did not work. Personnally after seeing HD86 with old and new firmware and HD87 I feel HD87 is all in all much better working machine. It is the pj HD86 should have been in the first place. I wonder what if this new 1.11 firmware was never actually designed for HD86 at all but was mentioned to be firmware for HD87 all along? It seems after trick like this from Optoma the trust is almost gone even though the HD87 is great.

I guess there's another issue at hand with the machines that do not work with the firmware ? The firmware is most probably global. If you take the specification of the HD86 and HD87 side by side the field of improvements (a bit more ansi, dynamic contrast, lumens, pure motion version) are numbers that can easily be played with. I still think the HD86 and HD87 are the same hardware and that the HD87 is just a relabeled HD86 with firmware 1.11 loaded.
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post #459 of 660 Old 11-17-2010, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rafparedis View Post

If you take the specification of the HD86 and HD87 side by side the field of improvements (a bit more ansi, dynamic contrast, lumens, pure motion version) are numbers that can easily be played with. I still think the HD86 and HD87 are the same hardware and that the HD87 is just a relabeled HD86 with firmware 1.11 loaded.

That could very well be the case. I believe too that the firmware is global. I just wonder if it was Optoma's plan at all to release the Fw 1.11 as upgrade to HD86 but to launch it as HD87. Anyway it is good that they made good even better, the way they made it wasn't just the politest way
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post #460 of 660 Old 11-17-2010, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rafparedis View Post

I still think the HD86 and HD87 are the same hardware and that the HD87 is just a relabeled HD86 with firmware 1.11 loaded.

Perhaps Tom could confirm whether HD8600 and HD86 are the same machines, so then the debates on Euro or non-Euro firmware versions will be meaningless.
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post #461 of 660 Old 11-18-2010, 12:06 AM
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Translated French review of the HD87 here. Looks promising. I have a JVC HD750 presently and it's great. It's cinematic and all - you've heard the adjectives applied to the JVCs. However, there are times when I feel that the picture doesn't quite reach out and grab me like with DLP with it's sharpness and pop. There are other times when the LCoS panels do things much better than DLP though - i.e. great black levels without use of a DI. I just want the best of both worlds! Nice to hear that the French reviewers, who apparently thought that the HD86's DI was too noticeable, are crediting Optoma with now making it practically invisible - though how it could be totally invisible is beyond me (thinking credits here, thinking fast scene changes from individual set against a bright background to one set against a dark one - e.g. the joker's interrogation scene in the police station in Batman TDK). May be I'll look up a dealer for a demo. It would be nice to compare the JVC and Optoma side by side.
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post #462 of 660 Old 11-18-2010, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lehis View Post

That could very well be the case. I believe too that the firmware is global. I just wonder if it was Optoma's plan at all to release the Fw 1.11 as upgrade to HD86 but to launch it as HD87. Anyway it is good that they made good even better, the way they made it wasn't just the politest way

My problem with this is that the HD86 for example still had the 24p bug. I wouldn't have had a problem with it if they had released a firmware that fixed things like that. Now European customers that bought the HD86 are being treated like beta users with no option to upgrade to the finished product.
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post #463 of 660 Old 11-18-2010, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canary_Jules View Post

Translated French review of the HD87 here. Looks promising. I have a JVC HD750 presently and it's great. It's cinematic and all - you've heard the adjectives applied to the JVCs. However, there are times when I feel that the picture doesn't quite reach out and grab me like with DLP with it's sharpness and pop. There are other times when the LCoS panels do things much better than DLP though - i.e. great black levels without use of a DI. I just want the best of both worlds! Nice to hear that the French reviewers, who apparently thought that the HD86's DI was too noticeable, are crediting Optoma with now making it practically invisible - though how it could be totally invisible is beyond me (thinking credits here, thinking fast scene changes from individual set against a bright background to one set against a dark one - e.g. the joker's interrogation scene in the police station in Batman TDK). May be I'll look up a dealer for a demo. It would be nice to compare the JVC and Optoma side by side.

I can confirm that 1.11 (HD87?) really made a difference in the visibility of the iris operation in DB1 mode. In practice it's indeed almost invisible in operation (in that you only very rarely see it).
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post #464 of 660 Old 11-18-2010, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rafparedis View Post

I can confirm that 1.11 (HD87?) really made a difference in the visibility of the iris operation in DB1 mode. In practice it's indeed almost invisible in operation (in that you only very rarely see it).

And I second that. DB1 mode (even DB2 is almost invisble) is so much better in this HD87 than it was in HD86 with 1.11 firmware and motion is much more fluid with or without pure motion set to low.
HD 87 has also firmware 1.11 so I wonder how it is better with motion and DB than HD86 with firmware 1.11 was if the firmware and Hw are the same. Some small thing must have changed in the HW I think.
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post #465 of 660 Old 11-18-2010, 04:49 AM
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If you check out Amazon@UK the price is pretty good with free spare lamp.
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post #466 of 660 Old 11-18-2010, 04:58 AM
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Even better here. Free lamp and £400 off with trade in of even a duff projector. I already spoke to them and they were enthusiastic about the HD87 (although it hasn't arrived into stock yet). One downer they said is that Optoma are not sending out demo units at least until January as all stock is being produced for sale. So you have to buy without seeing! This is a significant barrier because I'd want to see the HD87 up against a JVC in a demo room and won't buy without it. Also it seems that the HD87 (if it's the same as the HD86 in this respect) wouldn't work in my room with my screen size. My HD750 currently projects onto my 2.5 metre wide screen from a distance of 3.5 metres. I don't think that the HD87 can do this without the short throw lens (thus more money required). Also there's the issue of offset. My HD750 is ceiling mounted and the top of my screen is literally a couple of inches from the ceiling. Can anyone advise?
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post #467 of 660 Old 11-18-2010, 05:13 AM
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According to the manual the vertical lens shift is +50 - - 60% which means that projector upside down on the ceiling lens shift at it's maximum you can get top of the screen 10% of the height of the screen below the center of the lens. So if you have 92" screen as 114cm high you get top of the screen about 11,4cm below the lens center.
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post #468 of 660 Old 11-18-2010, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lehis View Post

According to the manual the vertical lens shift is +50 - - 60% which means that projector upside down on the ceiling lens shift at it's maximum you can get top of the screen 10% of the height of the screen below the center of the lens. So if you have 92" screen as 114cm high you get top of the screen about 11,4cm below the lens center.

Hi, thanks for this. I don't think it will work for me ceiling mounted, but looking at the manual it might work for me shelf mounted further down the wall.
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post #469 of 660 Old 11-18-2010, 09:49 AM
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Anyone care to comment on the stats from the French review?

Quote:


Best value of black (with dynamic iris): 0.01 lux
Best black value natively (without dynamic iris): 0.09 lux

Calibrated dynamic contrast: 10300:1 (on: off)
Native Contrast Cinema Mode 2: 2444:1 (on: off)

How does 0.09 compare with other projectors - e.g. JVC RS20?
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post #470 of 660 Old 11-18-2010, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maciejk View Post

Perhaps Tom could confirm whether HD8600 and HD86 are the same machines, so then the debates on Euro or non-Euro firmware versions will be meaningless.

Yes they are the same, there's just a different warranty.

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post #471 of 660 Old 11-19-2010, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rafparedis View Post

...
The issue of the green flashes still persists, but I had this also on 1.08, on 2 different HD86's. No other display device I own has it (tv, hd800x). Tried several hdmi cables and even a splitter/repeater. The only thing I haven't exchanged is the receiver because this isn't feasible (yamaha RX-V3900 with the ABT2010 video processor chipset, same as in the oppo BD83)

(If I recall correctly my previous HD800X also was 'global' as it reported itself to my pc as the HD803, the model number used in the US)

Hmmm... I've seen green flashes (duration 1...10s) on two different HD86 devices within the last 4 weeks. After testing out different things it seems as if I got some hold of the problem. I have some common denominators with rafparedis so let's start with the gear and the background.

previous projector: HD800x
current projector : HD86 fw1.08 (another unit with fw 1.07 was here as well)
AV-amplifier : Yamaha RX-V663
BD-player : Sony BDP-S350
DVD-player : Sony RDR-HXD870
DVD-player : Sony RDR-HX710 (older, no HDMI output)

With HD800x earlier I had sometimes vertical stripes of opposite colours in the picture (like green stripe on people's faces/skin). The issue was strongest with HX710 as source, producing progressive component video output through Yamaha, but the same phenomenon was sometimes present also with both HDMI-sources, though it was not that strong (1080p). For HDMI-devices I found a cure: I switched Sony HDMI output format from the default YCbCr 4:4:4 to YCbCr 4:2:2 on both S350 & HXD870. All problems gone.

A month ago I switched to HD86. 1080p24 picture worked perfectly but I had problems with those green frames when using 1080p50. Green picture had a duration of 1...10s, usually 2...6 times per hour and I had same observations with both HDMI-sources. I tried removing Yamaha from the chain (player directly connected to projector, suffered 2ch audio) and there were still problems but now they appeared differently: there were flashes or blue rain/noise in the picture. Same thing with both players, with 7m cable, with 5m cable and with 2 different 1.5m cables.

The dealer kindly provided me another HD86 unit and that was demonstrating the same problem until I came across that HDMI signal format setting, tried switching that back to YCbCr 4:4:4 and since then all problems have been gone.

Summary points:
- 1080p24 was always ok.
- 1080p50 had trouble from 2 players with Yamaha (green picture with some red, looked like blue was missing) and without Yamaha (blue noise).
- Changing HDMI cable length had no impact on the problem.
- Changing HDMI signal format helped. So far >10h of p50 without problems.

Exception to the rule:
The first HD86 had trouble with HDMI1 and HDMI2 inputs only, HDMI3 seemed to work ok (at least >10h of p50).

Weird/weak/unexplainable points are the exception + the fact that 4:2:2 setting was ok 99,9% of the time.

That's about it. These are just observations, maybe people who are more knowledgeable about HDMI frame format details can make some analysis or interpretations about what was actually going on.

Anyway I hope this might help if anyone is suffering these green frames or similar issues.
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post #472 of 660 Old 11-19-2010, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ikidur View Post

Hmmm... I've seen green flashes (duration 1...10s) on two different HD86 devices within the last 4 weeks. After testing out different things it seems as if I got some hold of the problem. I have some common denominators with rafparedis so let's start with the gear and the background.

...

Weird/weak/unexplainable points are the exception + the fact that 4:2:2 setting was ok 99,9% of the time.

That's about it. These are just observations, maybe people who are more knowledgeable about HDMI frame format details can make some analysis or interpretations about what was actually going on.

Anyway I hope this might help if anyone is suffering these green frames or similar issues.

My (frustrating) story with the green flashes till now.

equipment:
previous projector: HD800x
current projector : HD86 fw1.11, original 1.08 (another unit with fw 1.07 was here as well)
AV-amplifier : Yamaha RX-V3900
BD-player : Sony PS3
HD-DVD-player : Toshiba HD-XE1
Other sources : digital tv box, xbox, xbox360

Never had any problems with the HD800X or my samsung LE40M81. In february I bought a HD86 (1.07). This one problems with those green frames with a duration of 1...10s, also several per hour on all hdmi inputs. Experimented with different HDMI cables, taken receiver out of the mix. It seemed that disabling processing of HDMI on the receiver lessened the issue?

I sent in the unit to optoma. They didn't find anything but because the unit failed the final shipping test I received another one (1.08) Green flashes still occurred only now it flashes, no longer duration (the kind of flashing you experience when the projector is locking on the source). I had hoped 1.11 would fix this problem but this was not the case. The occurrences got worse recently so I have been taking actions again to try to solve it last week. (It's really frustrating because it pulls you out of the immersion.., and was getting out of hand)

Things I've tried:
*Bought 2 new hdmi cables one 10m, another 7.5,tried a shorter 5 meter one I still had around but this didn't help (in total tried 5 different cables)
*I have a hdmi splitter (1source - 2 targets) which I put in the signal chain between the receiver and projector in several different configurations (cables, position)
* moved the ps3 so that this one was directly connected to the projector
* used hdmi of digital tv box directly to projector

I might even have forgotten some other things but as you can see, I've tried all I could think of. The next thing I was planning to do was buying a HDMI repeater to inject in the signal chain between receiver and projector... , if that didn't help it would be back to the service center :/

Thanks for the pointer! I'll try it and let you know if it helped
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post #473 of 660 Old 11-19-2010, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ikidur View Post

Hmmm... I've seen green flashes (duration 1...10s) on two different HD86 devices within the last 4 weeks. After testing out different things it seems as if I got some hold of the problem. I have some common denominators with rafparedis so let's start with the gear and the background.

previous projector: HD800x
current projector : HD86 fw1.08 (another unit with fw 1.07 was here as well)
AV-amplifier : Yamaha RX-V663
BD-player : Sony BDP-S350
DVD-player : Sony RDR-HXD870
DVD-player : Sony RDR-HX710 (older, no HDMI output)

With HD800x earlier I had sometimes vertical stripes of opposite colours in the picture (like green stripe on people's faces/skin). The issue was strongest with HX710 as source, producing progressive component video output through Yamaha, but the same phenomenon was sometimes present also with both HDMI-sources, though it was not that strong (1080p). For HDMI-devices I found a cure: I switched Sony HDMI output format from the default YCbCr 4:4:4 to YCbCr 4:2:2 on both S350 & HXD870. All problems gone.

A month ago I switched to HD86. 1080p24 picture worked perfectly but I had problems with those green frames when using 1080p50. Green picture had a duration of 1...10s, usually 2...6 times per hour and I had same observations with both HDMI-sources. I tried removing Yamaha from the chain (player directly connected to projector, suffered 2ch audio) and there were still problems but now they appeared differently: there were flashes or blue rain/noise in the picture. Same thing with both players, with 7m cable, with 5m cable and with 2 different 1.5m cables.

The dealer kindly provided me another HD86 unit and that was demonstrating the same problem until I came across that HDMI signal format setting, tried switching that back to YCbCr 4:4:4 and since then all problems have been gone.

Summary points:
- 1080p24 was always ok.
- 1080p50 had trouble from 2 players with Yamaha (green picture with some red, looked like blue was missing) and without Yamaha (blue noise).
- Changing HDMI cable length had no impact on the problem.
- Changing HDMI signal format helped. So far >10h of p50 without problems.

Exception to the rule:
The first HD86 had trouble with HDMI1 and HDMI2 inputs only, HDMI3 seemed to work ok (at least >10h of p50).

Weird/weak/unexplainable points are the exception + the fact that 4:2:2 setting was ok 99,9% of the time.

That's about it. These are just observations, maybe people who are more knowledgeable about HDMI frame format details can make some analysis or interpretations about what was actually going on.

Anyway I hope this might help if anyone is suffering these green frames or similar issues.

Looks good just simple change in device setup, keep testing looks like the cure can be found and you'll get your 24fps.
good luck

Tom/guitarman
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post #474 of 660 Old 11-20-2010, 02:59 AM
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forgot to mention. I've had these flashes with all resolutions used 1080P24, 1080I50 (I think this is the max resolution the tv box is generating), 1080P50 and 1080P60. The least occurrences on P24 and I50. P50 and P60 have more flashes. Also tried PS3 deep color off instead of automatic.

I've looked in the setup of my hdmi source devices (toshiba HD-XE1,PS3,Xbox360). None of them have the the setting where I can specify YCbCr 4:4:4
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post #475 of 660 Old 11-20-2010, 10:52 AM
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Does anyone think I'm mad to be contemplating switching my JVC HD750 (RS20) for an HD87? There's loads to like about my HD750, particularly the famous black levels, but ever since I switched to DiLA I've missed the pseudo 3D effect of high end DLP which comes from the high ANSI contrast and single chip sharpness. There's a smoothness/softness about DiLA which sometimes I very much like, but there are other times when I just want the image to jump out and bite me and I haven't really felt like that since my last DLP.

The main obstacle that I need reassurance on is the DI. I'm really concerned that I'm going to notice it and that the DI is going to annoy the heck out of me - that's why I went to DiLA in the first place. Of course I'm going to demo and compare the HD87 to the HD950 (RS25) but you only get an hour or so in a demo room and it's funny how it's only when you get a pj back home that you begin to see issues. I know the French test I linked to earlier said that the DI is much improved over the HD86 but they also claim that the black levels and general contrast are also improved. I wonder how they managed that without really putting more pressure on the DI?
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post #476 of 660 Old 11-20-2010, 12:27 PM
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get an rs35 instead. i have always been a dlp junkie, but the rs35 is very close in terms of sharpness. once calibrated, this pj is amazing. the rs20 is good, but not like the rs35.

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post #477 of 660 Old 11-20-2010, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Anthony A. View Post

get an rs35 instead. i have always been a dlp junkie, but the rs35 is very close in terms of sharpness. once calibrated, this pj is amazing. the rs20 is good, but not like the rs35.

I wish I could afford an RS35. However, I'm positive the 2nd hand value of my HD750 would match the price of a new HD87 so I could switch at no extra cost. Gotta demo one though. I don't want to take a step backwards in PQ.
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post #478 of 660 Old 11-20-2010, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by rafparedis View Post

forgot to mention. I've had these flashes with all resolutions used 1080P24, 1080I50 (I think this is the max resolution the tv box is generating), 1080P50 and 1080P60. The least occurrences on P24 and I50. P50 and P60 have more flashes. Also tried PS3 deep color off instead of automatic.

I've looked in the setup of my hdmi source devices (toshiba HD-XE1,PS3,Xbox360). None of them have the the setting where I can specify YCbCr 4:4:4

Umh... that's nasty. I was hoping that at least PS3 would follow the logic of the sony sources that I have so that it would offer that setting.

Based on the symptoms in my system I can only guess that HDMI protocol has some bits which change rarely and some devices may choose to ignore them / assume some default values for them (*). On top of this different devices treat these assumptions differently (like in my case: through Yamaha I loose blue from entire frames & bypassing Yamaha gives that blue noise in the picture). If you had an extra HDMI switch in the chain (was there?) you could maybe try without that to see if at least p24 was then cured... For me p24 worked perfectly even with 4:2:2 mode (sony BDP - yamaha - hd86).

(*) This is also a somewhat weak theory since the problem comes & goes even with static picture, e.g. DVD-player menu.
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post #479 of 660 Old 11-20-2010, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Ikidur View Post

Umh... that's nasty. I was hoping that at least PS3 would follow the logic of the sony sources that I have so that it would offer that setting.

Based on the symptoms in my system I can only guess that HDMI protocol has some bits which change rarely and some devices may choose to ignore them / assume some default values for them (*). On top of this different devices treat these assumptions differently (like in my case: through Yamaha I loose blue from entire frames & bypassing Yamaha gives that blue noise in the picture). If you had an extra HDMI switch in the chain (was there?) you could maybe try without that to see if at least p24 was then cured... For me p24 worked perfectly even with 4:2:2 mode (sony BDP - yamaha - hd86).

(*) This is also a somewhat weak theory since the problem comes & goes even with static picture, e.g. DVD-player menu.

Well the 24P also has the issue I've just tried to set the ps3 to output in RGB, but still the issue persists (PS3 - RX-V3900 hdmi pasthrough - HD86)

I've browsed the projector settings and saw the I still had pure motion on on setting 1, switched to none , didn't fix it either

(I even tried once to keep the hdmi cable of the ground with wash clippers to the seats to see if this solved it ..)
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post #480 of 660 Old 11-20-2010, 03:30 PM
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Well the 24P also has the issue I've just tried to set the ps3 to output in RGB, but still the issue persists (PS3 - RX-V3900 hdmi pasthrough - HD86)
...

Considering that the problem is present with different signal sources, direct & indirect connections, different frame rates, different cable lengths & with still pictures I guess that one could conclude that HD86 HDMI-interface operation is somehow nondeterministic. Submit a bug report to optoma? (If needed I can deliver two one minute avi-files demonstrating the issues.)
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