Official JVC RS25/HD950 Owners Thread! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1011 Old 10-14-2009, 11:55 AM
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post #92 of 1011 Old 10-14-2009, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

You may want to go back to a single chip DLP machine, its a question of priorities and trade offs which can of course differ in machines based on the same technology but say having a better lens or a different color wheel.

Yes I think that I should have bought the SIM2 D80E that I was offered last year from Jason. Having owned two other SIM2 DLP's I think I just have a preference for the DLP picture. Now time to get accustomed to my RS25 that is unless someone wants to make a deal on a slightly used RS25
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post #93 of 1011 Old 10-14-2009, 12:59 PM
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Even if your budget was unlimited, you would quickly exceed it.

Mark, I love it ! Reminds me of one of those Yogi (Berra) isms !

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post #94 of 1011 Old 10-14-2009, 03:34 PM
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Hi folks:



The posts, scarse, don't tell anything that may reveal real improvements from the RS25 over the RS 20/HD 750. We hear owners say that the RS25 is very sharp, but nothing more about the picture dynamics, more ansi contrast, etc. I don't think JVC would throw a new projector just to correct the CMS and implement a form of FI at the price of US 8 000. According to the Jason's review of a testing unit (I agree he didn't say much), it became clear (sorry If I'm wrong)there were evolutionary improvements over the RS 20. I own an RS 10, and very efficient light control in my room. I want to know If I would sense a real difference getting the RS 25. Is the better performance of the Rs 25 over the RS 20 a consensus right now, or to know that we will have to wait professional reviews?
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post #95 of 1011 Old 10-14-2009, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waltie View Post

Hi folks:



The posts, scarse, don't tell anything that may reveal real improvements from the RS25 over the RS 20/HD 750. We hear owners say that the RS25 is very sharp, but nothing more about the picture dynamics, more ansi contrast, etc. I don't think JVC would throw a new projector just to correct the CMS and implement a form of FI at the price of US 8 000. According to the Jason's review of a testing unit (I agree he didn't say much), it became clear (sorry If I'm wrong)there were evolutionary improvements over the RS 20. I own an RS 10, and very efficient light control in my room. I want to know If I would sense a real difference getting the RS 25. Is the better performance of the Rs 25 over the RS 20 a consensus right now, or to know that we will have to wait professional reviews?

The latter.
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post #96 of 1011 Old 10-14-2009, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waltie View Post

The posts, scarse, don't tell anything that may reveal real improvements from the RS25 over the RS 20/HD 750. We hear owners say that the RS25 is very sharp, but nothing more about the picture dynamics, more ansi contrast, etc. I don't think JVC would throw a new projector just to correct the CMS and implement a form of FI at the price of US 8 000. According to the Jason's review of a testing unit (I agree he didn't say much), it became clear (sorry If I'm wrong)there were evolutionary improvements over the RS 20. I own an RS 10, and very efficient light control in my room. I want to know If I would sense a real difference getting the RS 25. Is the better performance of the Rs 25 over the RS 20 a consensus right now, or to know that we will have to wait professional reviews?

Since dealer cost for the RS25 increase about as much as the MSRP from the RS20, they should sell for $500-$600 more than the RS20, MSRP increased $500, but the new model number allows them to increase prices, make physical changes to the unit, firmware enhancements, different parts, etc. They really can't do that while retaining the same model. This is also different from the introduction of the RS20. When the RS20 was introduced, the RS2 remained in the product line for another year..... The RS20's are NLA, unless a dealer has inventory.

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post #97 of 1011 Old 10-14-2009, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waltie View Post

Hi folks:



The posts, scarse, don't tell anything that may reveal real improvements from the RS25 over the RS 20/HD 750. We hear owners say that the RS25 is very sharp, but nothing more about the picture dynamics, more ansi contrast, etc. I don't think JVC would throw a new projector just to correct the CMS and implement a form of FI at the price of US 8 000. According to the Jason's review of a testing unit (I agree he didn't say much), it became clear (sorry If I'm wrong)there were evolutionary improvements over the RS 20. I own an RS 10, and very efficient light control in my room. I want to know If I would sense a real difference getting the RS 25. Is the better performance of the Rs 25 over the RS 20 a consensus right now, or to know that we will have to wait professional reviews?

I think your question could be more easily answered by breaking it into two questions. The first, is how the RS10 compares to the RS20. This we have a good feel for. Although I have never seen an RS10, the consensus is that the better black level and on/off CR of the RS20 can make a significant difference over the RS10. Also the CMS in the RS20 is going to be critical for correcting colors if you are sensitive to over saturated colors, as you will have with the RS20.

The second question is how does the RS20 then compare to the RS25. I don't think we have a good feel for this yet. So far my very early impression just from what I've read is that the RS25 is essentially an RS20 except with CMD/FI and perhaps somewhat improved sharpness/focusing.
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post #98 of 1011 Old 10-15-2009, 06:41 PM
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you owe an RS20 and all its capabilities. Last year two american sites, the most known ones ( though one of them has too much of subjective view, which is important, but lacks in technical aspects), were unanimous in consider the RS 20 the champion.


Of course there's DLP and LCD fans. I havent' seen the perfomrnance of the first. Some units are quite expensive, but, according to specialized press, they don't provide black level as the LCOS/SXRD do and some LCD achieve. I went on Sony while it were in LCD projectors line and on Mitsubishi. I had the HC 5000 and the HC 7000, and both were much plagued by the dust blobs issue. They hit my units just a bit above 100 hours of use. The image of the HC7000 was extremely good to me, but I wouldn't stand the blobs, as much as one doesn't support rainbow effects. I think it's something inherent to LCD. I sold it out and bought the RS 10 ( in black scenes it just eats up the hC 7000). My projection room is not a bat cave but completley light controlled. Pretty much dark. I decided to take a step forward, which is the RS 25. The RS 20 would be an upgrade itself.


Reading your post (with all your cautioness), made me think (I know nothing about technical aspects) that front projectors have reached a level of perfornance, IMHO, hard to improve. I mean JVC, RS 25 and, this year, Sony's VW 85, wil be the top ones. Differences, I believe, will be too short, if they come to exist.


One thing, however, caught my attention very positively, at least by now. The RS 25 owners are reporting a very sharp image, what I enjoyed too much in the LCD units.


The basic point in JVC, appreciated by too many people, is its CRT-like image. I noticed, in this point, with a certain degree of deception, that the HC 7000 showed a more dynamic image than the RS 10, though, as I said, the blacks in the last one were noticeably better. The not use of a DI, also, has a great advantage, not keepin the bright objects dim in dark scenes.


In Brazil we don't have ISF calibrators. Personally, I prefer the image a little saturated (not as much to spoil the image). The settings I get from sites that provided and members that post them. I'm certain I'm not getting the best of my RS 10, but so far, I'm really really happy with it.


In summary, my friend, If the RS25 comes to be an RS 20 sharper, I'll be fully satisfied.
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post #99 of 1011 Old 10-15-2009, 08:15 PM
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88 works days until I can order an RS25 for myself. 2 years of saving my extra pennies. January will rock.

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post #100 of 1011 Old 10-15-2009, 08:21 PM
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waltie:

Though current DILA projectors are very good I think there are still areas left for improvement, namely ANSI CR and MTF.
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post #101 of 1011 Old 10-15-2009, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpauline View Post

I am not really sure what to change the screen to except that I don't really like how the screen deals with white scenes.

I am still trying to get comfortable with my decision to switch from DLP to the RS25. I definitely notice more issues such as motion blur and when I watch HD hockey games I notice on things like the hockey players sticks a sort of tri color surrounding them. I was not sensitive to RBE with DLP so now I am a little frustrated that even though the picture is better given that it is HD it is also now more digital and I notice more flaws.

As an HD750 owner who also is bothered by blurring when watching hockey, this is not great news - I thought the new 120hz panels + CMD would help this...

Do you see red/green fringing on the white stripes of the refs jerseys when there is moderate speed horizontal panning/movement?

Thanks
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post #102 of 1011 Old 10-16-2009, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

As an HD750 owner who also is bothered by blurring when watching hockey, this is not great news - I thought the new 120hz panels + CMD would help this...

Do you see red/green fringing on the white stripes of the refs jerseys when there is moderate speed horizontal panning/movement?

Thanks

I will have to check the refs jerseys for that however I can tell you that when the players are in motion I can see a red/green fringing on their hockey sticks. Also I noticed that on very quick motion for example a roulette wheel spinning that the image will become blurry in the area of motion.

Everything else is stellar. The colors in THX mode are very good. This projector is very sharp. I cannot say if it was sharper than the RS20 as I did not get enough time with one. Of course the ability to show blacks is much better than the SIM2 Dom 20 DLP that it replaced. But these motion issues are not good. I guess now I know what people feel like when they watch a DLP and see the RBE.
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post #103 of 1011 Old 10-16-2009, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpauline View Post

I will have to check the refs jerseys for that however I can tell you that when the players are in motion I can see a red/green fringing on their hockey sticks. Also I noticed that on very quick motion for example a roulette wheel spinning that the image will become blurry in the area of motion.

Everything else is stellar. The colors in THX mode are very good. This projector is very sharp. I cannot say if it was sharper than the RS20 as I did not get enough time with one. Of course the ability to show blacks is much better than the SIM2 Dom 20 DLP that it replaced. But these motion issues are not good. I guess now I know what people feel like when they watch a DLP and see the RBE.

You can't really compare resolution loss during motion from a 1024X576 projector to a 1920X1080 projector. The 1080p projector has 3X the resolution to begin with. There can be many causes of this. I suggest that your cable or satellite company is to blame for providing you a poor and very compressed signal. It only become apparent to you now because you have a display that is capable of revealing how bad your signal really is.

There is an issue with red fringing. I have not seen this in actual material, only in test patterns.

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post #104 of 1011 Old 10-16-2009, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpauline View Post

I will have to check the refs jerseys for that however I can tell you that when the players are in motion I can see a red/green fringing on their hockey sticks. Also I noticed that on very quick motion for example a roulette wheel spinning that the image will become blurry in the area of motion.

Everything else is stellar. The colors in THX mode are very good. This projector is very sharp. I cannot say if it was sharper than the RS20 as I did not get enough time with one. Of course the ability to show blacks is much better than the SIM2 Dom 20 DLP that it replaced. But these motion issues are not good. I guess now I know what people feel like when they watch a DLP and see the RBE.

what does your convergence look like? also, have you tried the different CMD modes?
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post #105 of 1011 Old 10-16-2009, 12:08 PM
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Does sharpness have something to do with ansi contrast?
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post #106 of 1011 Old 10-16-2009, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by waltie View Post

Does sharpness have something to do with ansi contrast?

The simple answer is that there is a relationship, but it is not a direct relationship. The real answer is that sharper displays have higher MTF and you can't have high ANSI contrast without good MTF. So, I think that you can look at ANSI contrast as a kind of canary in the coal mine.

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post #107 of 1011 Old 10-16-2009, 01:09 PM
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The real answer is that sharper displays have higher MTF and you can't have high ANSI contrast without good MTF.

You could. Just consider really bad misconvergence. You could have very high ANSI CR combined with that. Or with the Sony VW85 that does poorly on single pixel checkerboards. Set their zone convergence feature to 50% for 2 adjacent pixels and the MTF at full resolution would likely be poor even if they could do single pixel checkerboards fine without the zone convergence, but ANSI CR is hardly affected.

You could also have high MTF without high ANSI CR. Just put a super high MTF display in a white room with a white screen. Now ANSI CR gets killed, but MTF is still excellent. One reason being that 10:1 CR in a full resolution MTF would be very good, but 50:1 ANSI CR is very poor.

Another example in that direction (although I didn't measure MTF) would be a Samsung A800B with only a little over 100:1 ANSI CR. From looking at a white line on a black background and knowing the technology I would guess that this A800B would have significantly better MTF at full resolution than a Sony VW85 with 400:1 ANSI CR.

There are some effects that can help or kill both MTF at full resolution and ANSI CR, but some that can affect one without affecting the other that much. The large area effects like white walls is one direction and horrible misconvergence is another (since misconvergence tends to have almost no effect on ANSI CR).

Basically, ANSI CR can be used as kind of a canary in a coal mine, but there are exceptions.

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post #108 of 1011 Old 10-17-2009, 02:09 AM - Thread Starter
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What's the general consensus on the lens aperture? Leave it fully open and adjust using the brightness/contrast settings? Or close it a bit and adjust from there?

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post #109 of 1011 Old 10-17-2009, 04:58 AM
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Personally I would adjust brightness/contrast settings to provide maximum contrast. If the result is too bright and projector is too loud, I would choose low lamp, otherwise, or if still too bright, I would use iris.

There propably will not be a consensus as some will prefer contrast over brightness and use iris right away.
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post #110 of 1011 Old 10-18-2009, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I'd like to find a reputable calibrator in my area, who does front projection and is familiar with the CMS on these projectors. I've tracked down a few who specialize in flat-panels. Which was fine when I had my plasma. Any suggestions?

On a different note, I quickly took these pics tonight with a rather cheap camera. Nothing special. Also, I have made no adjustments to the projector at all. Well, I actually turned the iris down a bit. That's it.






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post #111 of 1011 Old 10-19-2009, 03:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waboman View Post

What's the general consensus on the lens aperture? Leave it fully open and adjust using the brightness/contrast settings? Or close it a bit and adjust from there?

You have to understand there is a personal choice to be made here. With the iris fully open you get maximum ANSI contrast. But, you will limit your black level AND you will not get the maximum on/off contrast. In fact the maximum on/off contrast is achieved with the iris set as closed as possible!

Personally, I have put my iris near enough at the middle, to get the best compromise of black level, on/off contrast and ANSI contrast.

I know others will feel differently.
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post #112 of 1011 Old 10-19-2009, 03:40 AM
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Is there a different remote supplied with US models versus European? JoeRod has been reviewing the 950 and stated there was no THX button. My 950 has a remote (silver with black rubber back), that has a THX button.....
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post #113 of 1011 Old 10-19-2009, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Is there a different remote supplied with US models versus European? JoeRod has been reviewing the 950 and stated there was no THX button. My 950 has a remote (silver with black rubber back), that has a THX button.....

Actually I believe they slipped in a pre-prod remote. I am glad the 950's is pretty much like the 550s. I like that style of remote and the D-pad feels better.

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post #114 of 1011 Old 10-19-2009, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

You have to understand there is a personal choice to be made here. With the iris fully open you get maximum ANSI contrast. But, you will limit your black level AND you will not get the maximum on/off contrast. In fact the maximum on/off contrast is achieved with the iris set as closed as possible!

Personally, I have put my iris near enough at the middle, to get the best compromise of black level, on/off contrast and ANSI contrast.

I know others will feel differently.

It also depends on your room and screen. So... room, screen, personal preference... a classic "it depends" answer.
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post #115 of 1011 Old 10-19-2009, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess I just have to play with the iris and see what I like best. Right now, I have it two clicks above the middle

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post #116 of 1011 Old 10-19-2009, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Is there a different remote supplied with US models versus European? JoeRod has been reviewing the 950 and stated there was no THX button. My 950 has a remote (silver with black rubber back), that has a THX button.....

My remote has the THX button too.

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post #117 of 1011 Old 10-19-2009, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I am glad the 950's is pretty much like the 550s. I like that style of remote and the D-pad feels better.

joerod, how'd your weekend with the 950 go?

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post #118 of 1011 Old 10-19-2009, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

You have to understand there is a personal choice to be made here. With the iris fully open you get maximum ANSI contrast. But, you will limit your black level AND you will not get the maximum on/off contrast. In fact the maximum on/off contrast is achieved with the iris set as closed as possible!

Personally, I have put my iris near enough at the middle, to get the best compromise of black level, on/off contrast and ANSI contrast.

I know others will feel differently.

There was quite a bit of discussion about this in the RS20 threads when it first came out.

I measured just under 50,000:1 from mid throw with lamp on high and iris fully closed, and ran somewhere around 14ftL with my setup. ANSI CR measured around 230:1.

I ran with that config for a few weeks. Then others mentioned they were using normal lamp with the iris fully open. I was hesitant because I knew high lamp / iris closed was the best on/off CR mode. However I gave it a try and really enjoyed it more, and have never looked back. In this mode (normal lamp/iris fully open) ANSI CR measures closer to 300:1 and the image has more of a pop.

Blacks are not as deep and on/off measures "only" about 33000:1. However I cannot really perceive the higher black level (although I know it is higher) in this mode, yet I do perceive a lot more pop/3D. I do not know if that is the benefits of the extra ANSI CR and/or extra brightness in this mode but I prefer it.

In summary I recommend trying various combinations of lamp mode and iris settings to determine what you like best.
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post #119 of 1011 Old 10-19-2009, 02:21 PM
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joerod, how'd your weekend with the 950 go?

Good. I am now planning this week (and this weekend) to spend with the 85. The last 3 weekends I have spent with a different PJ!

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post #120 of 1011 Old 10-19-2009, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

There was quite a bit of discussion about this in the RS20 threads when it first came out.

I measured just under 50,000:1 from mid throw with lamp on high and iris fully closed, and ran somewhere around 14ftL with my setup. ANSI CR measured around 230:1.

I ran with that config for a few weeks. Then others mentioned they were using normal lamp with the iris fully open. I was hesitant because I knew high lamp / iris closed was the best on/off CR mode. However I gave it a try and really enjoyed it more, and have never looked back. In this mode (normal lamp/iris fully open) ANSI CR measures closer to 300:1 and the image has more of a pop.

Blacks are not as deep and on/off measures "only" about 33000:1. However I cannot really perceive the higher black level (although I know it is higher) in this mode, yet I do perceive a lot more pop/3D. I do not know if that is the benefits of the extra ANSI CR and/or extra brightness in this mode but I prefer it.

In summary I recommend trying various combinations of lamp mode and iris settings to determine what you like best.


Thanks! I'm gonna play around with the setttings. I'm hoping to have this calibrated in the next few weeks.

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