Can an RS-20 equal the RS-35? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 104 Old 10-08-2009, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Jeff Meier (umr) at AccuCal is an ISF magician. He has taken my video to the next level - one of the most breathtakingly glorious pictures I have ever seen. It beats my calibrated Pioneer Elite. It beats the Sim2 Lumis I demoed. It is absolutely stunning and transfixing. This is due in no small part to Jeff's exhaustive work last night, tweaking the grayscale and color to perfection.

It is also due to the fact that my RS-20 is apparently a "Royal Flush" of a projector (thanks Alan!) - possibly the sharpest 3-chipper Jeff's seen (DLP included), outstanding uniformity, and nearly 50,000:1 on/off contrast with the iris fully open, the highest he's measured. I have seen a number of RS-20's over the past year and none have blown my socks off. This time it was different. My jaw was on the floor with my blown-off socks. If this is what the RS-35 is capable of, then we are in for a real treat. Jeff is now considering an RS-35 for himself after seeing my unit.

I've had calibrations done on numerous displays in the past, but Jeff's work is singular. Alongside his extensive experience and knowledge, he packs a $25,000 spectroradiometer. He is extreme. He is thorough. No wonder major Hollywood studios and post-production houses go to him. If you want to tap into the full potential of your projector and experience all its glory, you owe it to yourself to let Jeff at it.
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post #2 of 104 Old 10-08-2009, 10:59 AM
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But can he calibrate black levels correctly?




Most super experienced calibrators forget the fundamentals of calibration.

(aka if you were to bring up a 25 step video level bar pattern with 0 - 25 flashing, can you still see video level 17 bar flashing?)

Not saying you can't or Jeff doesn't calibrate correctly, but I have seen 2 pro calibrated displays that were black crushed to about video level 20. (neither were from Jeff)
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post #3 of 104 Old 10-08-2009, 11:06 AM
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I am glad that you like what you see.

I always feel great when I first get a new toy. Then, over time I begin making a check list of things that I notice or would like improved.

Enjoy the honeymoon.

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post #4 of 104 Old 10-08-2009, 11:37 AM
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It is nice to see someone exited about their machine, Im happy for you. However.....

If someone is saying that an RS20 is the sharpest 3 chip unit they have seen, they have either never seen a decent PJ, or they are just making the customer feel good.

The underlying architecture makes it physically impossible for an RS20 to be as sharp as a 3 chip DLP unit, assuming the DLP unit is functioning correctly. It is incapable of very high local area contrast.

Dont misunderstand me, Im not saying its not a good machine. Far from it. I bought one

As Aristotle once said....."Ye canna change the laws of physics, Jim."

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post #5 of 104 Old 10-09-2009, 12:11 AM
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humm, guess i have to come by for a peek!

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post #6 of 104 Old 10-09-2009, 09:47 AM
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If that isn't an ad... Seriously, glad you are happy Peter.
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post #7 of 104 Old 10-09-2009, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fugueness View Post

Jeff Meier (umr) at AccuCal is an ISF magician.

Thanks for your calibration report. I've included it in the projection and direct view (Post#1) list that's linked at the bottom of my post.
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post #8 of 104 Old 10-09-2009, 04:17 PM
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can you post any before/after calibration data and some screenshots of your magical projector?
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post #9 of 104 Old 10-11-2009, 12:54 AM - Thread Starter
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post #10 of 104 Old 10-11-2009, 12:55 AM - Thread Starter
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post #11 of 104 Old 10-11-2009, 09:26 AM
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awesome pictures. Are you using a 2.40 setup? anamorphic lens?
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post #12 of 104 Old 10-11-2009, 11:04 AM
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Thanks for the pics, Peter. The color fringing on your most close-up of the cross hatch pattern is almost identical to that on my RS20.

Nice to see you again yesterday at Rob's house, and I regret having to leave early before all the other demos.
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post #13 of 104 Old 10-11-2009, 11:34 AM
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Very nice pictures. Impressive.

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post #14 of 104 Old 10-11-2009, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

awesome pictures. Are you using a 2.40 setup? anamorphic lens?

Neither - standard 16:9 Stewart Firehawk, because I watch so many subtitled and classic 4:3 films.

I'm still trying to decide whether to keep my RS-35 order and take delivery...
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post #15 of 104 Old 10-11-2009, 02:27 PM
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Jeff is scheduled to calibrate my RS20 in Nov. I can hardly wait.
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post #16 of 104 Old 10-11-2009, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fugueness View Post

Neither - standard 16:9 Stewart Firehawk, because I watch so many subtitled and classic 4:3 films.

I'm still trying to decide whether to keep my RS-35 order and take delivery...


DO it!

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post #17 of 104 Old 10-12-2009, 11:12 AM
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Please don`t take this the wrong way, but based on those screen shots, and screen shots are no way to judge a lot of things including sharpness, the images just don`t look that sharp.

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post #18 of 104 Old 10-12-2009, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kensmith48 View Post

Jeff is scheduled to calibrate my RS20 in Nov. I can hardly wait.


Please let us know how the post calibrated picture looks.

I have the RS20 calibrated by Jason with the original firmware and the picture looks damn good, but with the preliminary reports on the RS35, I'm getting itchy to upgrade again. If the RS20 new calibration makes a noticeble improvement in real world viewing then it would be preferable to the significant extra cost of upgrading again.
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post #19 of 104 Old 10-12-2009, 11:23 AM
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I would also be very unhappy with the panel convergence. Way too much fringing IMHO. My benchmark used to be my Panasonic 2000 (less than one pixel mis-convergence). My new 6800 is virtually perfect.

Of course, the Sony has panel alignment adjustments, so you can almost dial them in perfectly...
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post #20 of 104 Old 10-12-2009, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Please don`t take this the wrong way, but based on those screen shots, and screen shots are no way to judge a lot of things including sharpness, the images just don`t look that sharp.

Are you serious? They are sharp. It's even more apparent in the original 22MP files (shot with a Canon 5DMKII + 35L + 85LII - sharpest lenses in my bag). Or maybe they're not sharp because I didn't buy an RS-20 from you?
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post #21 of 104 Old 10-12-2009, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fugueness View Post

Are you serious? They are sharp. It's even more apparent in the original 22MP files (shot with a Canon 5DMKII + 35L + 85LII - sharpest lenses in my bag). Or maybe they're not sharp because I didn't buy an RS-20 from you?

Mark isn't saying your photographic equipment isn't sharp enough. The subject isn't.

I have to agree with Mark, and the ad hominem attack was totally unwarranted.

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post #22 of 104 Old 10-12-2009, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briandx View Post

Way too much fringing IMHO.

Interestingly, Jeff ran the (black on white) "sharpness" pattern from his AccuPel, and the fringing was considerably less.

Let's see what the RS-35 can do!
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post #23 of 104 Old 10-12-2009, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Mark isn't saying your photographic equipment isn't sharp enough. The subject isn't.

Gee, I guess my PJ isn't sharp then, guys. You guys are the experts, right? What a drag...
At least the colors look good!
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post #24 of 104 Old 10-12-2009, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briandx View Post

I would also be very unhappy with the panel convergence. Way too much fringing IMHO.

After being critical, of one aspect, with my post above, I now find myself defending on a different aspect.

Your comment is preposterous. The convergence is excellent and the fringing will have no visible effect.

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post #25 of 104 Old 10-12-2009, 12:10 PM
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Yea that`s for sure. I am pissed at you. Come on.

All I said was the screen shots are not sharp. No. I am not kidding. I use my eyes.The picture on your screen may be sharp, your files may be sharp, but the screen shots appearing on my computer display are not that sharp compared to other screen shots of the same scenes thrown by other RS20s. I did say that screen shoots are no way to judge whether a particular projector is throwing a sharp picture. I can tell you that an RS20 is not a really sharp projector to begin with but it is certainly sharp enough to make many happy.

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post #26 of 104 Old 10-12-2009, 12:13 PM
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I think that there is "sharp" and then there is "razor sharp". For most folks, the JVC will be "sharp enough". The other capabilities of the JVC will more than compensate for any minor issues with sharpness.

For me, sharpness is king, especially for the best live HDTV. It is the difference between the "open window" and almost open window.

This is not a criticism of the JVC. That it is not the sharpest PJ out there is pretty much a fact. It simply doesn't matter to most PJ buyers.
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post #27 of 104 Old 10-12-2009, 12:16 PM
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Sorry, but the convergence is not "excellent". I've owned 5 different front projectors over 12 years, and I know what excellent convergence looks like.

That is not it.

Now... Whether or not it is visible is ANOTHER matter. In most case it will not be (unless there are white graphics on the screen).
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post #28 of 104 Old 10-12-2009, 12:17 PM
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I suspect if you look at say the scenes in the train, you will see a considerably sharper picture on you theater screen than on your screen shots displayed say on your computer. I don`t know why. No one here is saying or can say based on screen shots how your sharpness compares to that of other RS20 setups. Remember we are all friends at least most of the time.

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post #29 of 104 Old 10-12-2009, 12:20 PM
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Quite frankly Mark, this is one of the reasons I tend to stay clear of JVC threads.

Some (not many, but a higher percentage than normal) tend to be zealots who cannot fathom ANY criticism of their units.

These last 10 posts are a perfect example of this.
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post #30 of 104 Old 10-12-2009, 12:22 PM
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It's not like it cost upwards of $20,000. I think it's a very good projector for the price, and it sure beats anything I saw from 10 yrs. ago at double the price.
I thought my RS20 looked great out of the box. I only hope Jeff (umr) can make a day & night difference. My grids looked alot better than those posted and just by eye I took the jaggies out and took out the colors from the cross hatch pattern also. No biggie to do that.
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