When will we see Samsung UN55B8500 LED Equivalent in a PROJECTOR? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 11-07-2009, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
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I LOVE THE SAMSUNG LED TVs - I am about to buy my second.

The 8500 was tested in full calibration and ANSI contrast was higher than 30,000:1 - the meter would not measure high enough.

Don't believe me? Here is the post, it is possibly the greatest display ever made as far as pure specs-

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1426

Quote:
Originally Posted by calibrated test View Post

Using a Chroma 5 meter, which is very good with low light measurements, I measured the ANSI contrast ratio of the LG to be a very good 2,050:1. However, the Samsung was so good in this regard the meter could not give a reading even at it's longest exposure time! That means that the Sammy's ANSI contrast measured over 30,000:1, which is world class. Only the Pioneer 9G Elite Kuro approaches this performance. What this adds up to in the real world is this: the Sammy will have superior contrast with more "pop" when watching in a dark room.

Where are the projectors like this? This is ANSI contrast NOT on-off. Unheard of in a projector ever...

This technology in a PJ would make a DLA-RSU35 look like scrap heap junk.

Knowing this is out there I refuse to upgrade my PJ now until they give us (TRUE home theater enthusiasts, who set up huge screens and build rooms) this technology in a projector.

Where is the projector industry folks????

And Sony is so far behind now technology wise it makes me sad as a 20 year Sony lover and enthusiast.

Who will be first to market this exact earthshaking technology in a front projector???

I think I will buy it no matter the cost....

First time I've ever said that - I know the economy is bad and I'm hurting too but if the $25k Rolex needs to be traded for one of these and it delivered numbers and eye candy like the Samsung 8500 in a Front Projector format that could handle a 140" 2.8 gain screen - I think I would rather have the PJ than my diamond Rolex....that's saying a lot - me spending $25k on a projector...
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post #2 of 29 Old 11-07-2009, 05:53 PM
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Yes the 8500 does have a high ANSI rating, but you won't see that, perhaps ever, with a projector. The 8500 uses local dimming LED's to achieve such high numbers and it isn't physically possible to do so with a projector. Guess you get to keep your watch.
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post #3 of 29 Old 11-07-2009, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadly25 View Post

The 8500 uses local dimming LED's to achieve such high numbers and it isn't physically possible to do so with a projector.

You should be glad to know that you are totally wrong on that. Local dimming most certainly is possible, has been discussed here before, and will be happening. There are 3 companies looking at this, and one has already cracked all the technical issues.

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post #4 of 29 Old 11-07-2009, 07:54 PM
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"You should be glad to know that you are totally wrong on that."

Even w/ocal dimming, is ANSI CR that high possible when the image has to go through glass?

I suspect not, and that the only way would be w/direct scanning laser w/no lens.

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post #5 of 29 Old 11-07-2009, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Even w/ocal dimming, is ANSI CR that high possible when the image has to go through glass?

I suspect not, and that the only way would be w/direct scanning laser w/no lens.

That was my point exactly. I wasn't saying local dimming wouldn't be possible but that it isn't possible to get 30,000:1 ANSI from a projector. Thanks for saying it the way I should have in the first place. You're right though coldmachine, I do hope I'm wrong.
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post #6 of 29 Old 11-08-2009, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chadly25 View Post

That was my point exactly. I wasn't saying local dimming wouldn't be possible but that it isn't possible to get 30,000:1 ANSI from a projector. Thanks for saying it the way I should have in the first place. You're right though coldmachine, I do hope I'm wrong.

Still it is good to know it is being worked on. All the "upgrades" this year for projectors were such incredible dissapointments over last years models - minor upgrades or no upgrades - I refuse to give my money away to have a slightly higher model number on my machine.

I know some industry people read this and I'm begging you guys - the technology is there now on the HDTV side - LED, OLED, local dimming.

That saying if you build it they will come...

Well the difference between top HDTVs and top projectors is becoming huge in terms of image quality. Has anyone looked at OLED recently? Or even just the Samsung 8500? My G-d!!! They are stunning - like Chris Matthews and his man love for Obama, they make a tingle go up my leg!

This is what we want, close the gap on the projector side and bring us HIGH END stuff that competes with these pretty standard HDTVs and I don't care what it costs!!

The thought of having my 8500 image at 140" inches is mouth watering.

Get it together industry folks, you are not going to get sales putting a new number on last year's product!!

I would say even LED lighting at all should be a bare minimum - PUSH the envelope again guys.

I remember when it was so exciting to see what new products I could upgrade to each year and now its just...


BLEH.


Give us a product worthy of competing with just basic top range HDTVs, a product worth actualy buying if we already have a really nice PJ from this year or last.
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post #7 of 29 Old 11-08-2009, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post


Even w/ocal dimming, is ANSI CR that high possible when the image has to go through glass?

I suspect not, and that the only way would be w/direct scanning laser w/no lens.

Then someone should be doing it!

Lets bring back the high end. I remember when the Sony Qualia-006 (was that the name??) was something so special ---- INDUSTRY give us our Qualia for 2010!!!!

Its so sad that I actually choose to watch a new Blu-ray on my 8500 instead of my 140" theater sometimes now. The fact that this has become a choice hurts me as an AV nut case. The only reason I go in my theater now is the 7.1 DTS-HD MA.
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post #8 of 29 Old 11-09-2009, 12:09 AM
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Whem will we see a flat panel that is 110 inches and costs $3000? The panny 4000 and screen come in at this price. Different applications. Both have strengths.


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post #9 of 29 Old 11-09-2009, 03:56 AM
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If you want a 140" screen with ultra high ANSI cr (>2000:1 I'm guessing) you'll probably get it in the form of a rollup OLED monitor before you get it in a projector.
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post #10 of 29 Old 11-09-2009, 04:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krinkle View Post

BLEH.


Give us a product worthy of competing with just basic top range HDTVs, a product worth actualy buying if we already have a really nice PJ from this year or last.

We represent what is a rather small percentage of the population that is into front projection. They have to outsource parts and develop technologies and it's rather expensive and time consuming. I think they are interested in making a profit and probably less concerned competing with HDTVs which is nowhere similar in technologies.
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post #11 of 29 Old 11-09-2009, 05:21 AM
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I have a Samsung 52" LED T.V. (with huge ANSI CR), a Sony G90 gamma corrected CRT front projector (with huge on/off, but comparatively low ANSI) and an Epson 7500 front projector (which has FI). Both projectors are in a fully light controlled room and mounted to obtain maximum punch from my Da lite high power screens. I only use the Samsung for watching T.V. and the projectors for movies! What does that tell you?
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post #12 of 29 Old 11-09-2009, 05:53 AM
 
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This tells me that the low intra scene contrast in the LED flat panel display is probably not preferred for watching movies.
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post #13 of 29 Old 11-09-2009, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krinkle View Post

[size="3"]I LOVE THE SAMSUNG LED TVs - I am about to buy my second.

The 8500 was tested in full calibration and ANSI contrast was higher than 30,000:1 - the meter would not measure high enough.

Don't believe me? Here is the post, it is possibly the greatest display ever made as far as pure specs-

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1426

I happen to disagree. The very high ansi is reached by utilizing a technology that inherently compromises other aspects of the image quality. If it looks good on paper, it's just because there are other things you could measure that you didn't. The new possibilities of modern displays calls for new ways to look at how to measure performance, and most reviewers can't keep up.

One thing I've been thinking about lately: I don't believe there is such a thing as too high on/off contrast. However, there may actually be such a thing as too high ansi. If you look at a picture with bright and dark areas, and you have "infinite" ANSI, the detail in the dark areas will be invisible, simply because of the limitations in the human eye. If the material was created using displays with lesser ansi, this may very well not have been adjusted for in the process, so you may end up hiding detail that should have been visible, in the hunt for "perfect contrast". This is on top of the other issues that local-dimming displays inherently have. Personally, I think it's really important that we try to reach as high levels of contrast (and other areas of performance) as possible, _without_ the use of such technologies that brings new issues to the table. The reason Pioneer got so good rep from everyone, isn't that they achieved great blacks. Others have done that too. It's because Pioneer did it without "cheating", there were very little negative side effects. Very similar to JVC's succes in projectors, that they achieved 30-50.000:1 isn't that spectacular on it's own, but that they did it without using an iris, that's what created all the fuzz. So, please, stop all this dynamic BS just for the sake of black levels, and give us some real, usable improvements instead. There are a _lot_ of ways to improve on PQ more than infinite ANSI contrast ever will, _especially_ on local-dimming LCD's.

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post #14 of 29 Old 11-09-2009, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMo View Post

This tells me that the low intra scene contrast in the LED flat panel display is probably not preferred for watching movies.

Or that there are 100 other things to care about re: PQ, than contrast.

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post #15 of 29 Old 11-09-2009, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto J View Post

I happen to disagree. The very high ansi is reached by utilizing a technology that inherently compromises other aspects of the image quality. If it looks good on paper, it's just because there are other things you could measure that you didn't. The new possibilities of modern displays calls for new ways to look at how to measure performance, and most reviewers can't keep up.

One thing I've been thinking about lately: I don't believe there is such a thing as too high on/off contrast. However, there may actually be such a thing as too high ansi. If you look at a picture with bright and dark areas, and you have "infinite" ANSI, the detail in the dark areas will be invisible, simply because of the limitations in the human eye. If the material was created using displays with lesser ansi, this may very well not have been adjusted for in the process, so you may end up hiding detail that should have been visible, in the hunt for "perfect contrast". This is on top of the other issues that local-dimming displays inherently have. Personally, I think it's really important that we try to reach as high levels of contrast (and other areas of performance) as possible, _without_ the use of such technologies that brings new issues to the table. The reason Pioneer got so good rep from everyone, isn't that they achieved great blacks. Others have done that too. It's because Pioneer did it without "cheating", there were very little negative side effects. Very similar to JVC's succes in projectors, that they achieved 30-50.000:1 isn't that spectacular on it's own, but that they did it without using an iris, that's what created all the fuzz. So, please, stop all this dynamic BS just for the sake of black levels, and give us some real, usable improvements instead. There are a _lot_ of ways to improve on PQ more than infinite ANSI contrast ever will, _especially_ on local-dimming LCD's.

Good points. Although 30k ANSI looks good on paper, the measurement was taken with the display projecting black and white squares which is the ideal test for a local dimming display. When you add real world content on the screen and don't have 2 million zones of dimming how is it going to compromise on the image? Say you have screen that is 33% white on top, 33% blue in the middle, and 33% black on the bottom. I could see how having a limited number of dimmable zones could create a blue that is ununiform due to the led's being dimmed around the line where blue and black meet and the LEDs being full throttle around the line where white and blue meet. Has anyone had a good look at the Samsung? Is this something that is noticable? If so, I would probably choose to have a "good ANSI" with no dynamics along with accurate color gradations.
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post #16 of 29 Old 11-09-2009, 09:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto J View Post

Or that there are 100 other things to care about re: PQ, than contrast.

I agree, but contrast in an element in the movie that is considered during the film making process much like colors, lighting, etc.
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post #17 of 29 Old 11-09-2009, 10:11 AM
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I can't believe you guys have the guts to help a guy who wears a 25K rolex.

Hell the price doesn't matter, but he's wearing a rolex.

XD

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Originally Posted by elmalloc View Post

I can't believe you guys have the guts to help a guy who wears a 25K rolex.

Hell the price doesn't matter, but he's wearing a rolex.

XD

I skipped over right after "Don't believe me?".
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post #19 of 29 Old 11-09-2009, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"You should be glad to know that you are totally wrong on that."

Even w/ocal dimming, is ANSI CR that high possible when the image has to go through glass?

I suspect not, and that the only way would be w/direct scanning laser w/no lens.

It's not impossible. Mark's measurements (or the ones he referenced) in his contrast thread showed that the RS1 was capable of about 15,000:1 simultaneous CR. Ie black/white in the same scene/frame. Now this isn't ANSI, but it shows that it's possible to get that sort of contrast through glass.

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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I have a Samsung 52" LED T.V. (with huge ANSI CR), a Sony G90 gamma corrected CRT front projector (with huge on/off, but comparatively low ANSI) and an Epson 7500 front projector (which has FI). Both projectors are in a fully light controlled room and mounted to obtain maximum punch from my Da lite high power screens. I only use the Samsung for watching T.V. and the projectors for movies! What does that tell you?

Yeah, I got a Samsung 46B6000 recently. It was the first LCD TV I've seen that I considered buying, and having purchased it I'm quite impressed with it. Haven't made any measurements though. In the HT I have a Planar 8150, and even if you could make the argument that the argument that the Samsung is "better" quality wise, the Planar is still just flat out better for movies.

There's just no substitute for a screen measured in feet. And when you've got it paired with a great FP like the Planar in a light controlled HT, well, all I can say is

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #20 of 29 Old 11-09-2009, 03:58 PM
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I would be curious of what the ANSI cr would be of an RS35 if you had a 100IRE full screen image and took that measurement for your the white and then put the meter 1' outside the actual image and took the 0IRE reading from the wall next to the screen. This would show the possible ANSI cr with a projector (approximatly) taking into account the light spray from the lens.
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post #21 of 29 Old 11-09-2009, 04:24 PM
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I don't think there are any lenses around that could support a projected 35,000:1 ANSI image, even if someone devised a micropanel that could produce a > 35000:1 image.
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post #22 of 29 Old 11-09-2009, 04:50 PM
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I don't either, but I am just curious what the range of possibility is with a lens.
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post #23 of 29 Old 11-11-2009, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc View Post

I can't believe you guys have the guts to help a guy who wears a 25K rolex.

Hell the price doesn't matter, but he's wearing a rolex.

XD

Why the personal snipe? I like the watch and bought it used from someone who defaulted on their mortgage after their business went bankrupt. The new price was much more as it has 96 VS-1 F diamonds and 4 large sapphires.

If you don't agree with my fashion taste keep it out of the thread about improving front projector technology instead of rebadging last year's models.

The only reason I mention it in the OP was for emphasis on how much seeing some new tech would mean to me.


At this point I am beginning to agree with the poster who said I will get a 100" LED display or 100" OLED display before I get a FP to satisfy my PQ needs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto J View Post

Or that there are 100 other things to care about re: PQ, than contrast.

Which I mention is the case. We are now seeing a situation where fixed panel performance and technology is simply not even in the same league as FPJ technology and performance.

I'm sure I am not the only one that would like to see that gap closed.

And if you are one of the posters saying how great your FP is from the last few years you have obviously never seen a calibrated Samsung 8500 or a Kuros for that matter in a totally black room.

Then you would understand why I watch Blu-rays on my 8500 sometimes now.
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post #24 of 29 Old 11-11-2009, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Well this is what I am talking about - a $2000 projector made by Panasonic vs. THE HIGH END RS25 by JVC for $8000.

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As the amount of black in the scene is reduced and average light level is increased, the RS25 loses its advantage. In some scenes it looks identical in contrast to the 8500UB or the AE4000. In brighter scenes with sufficient dynamic range, the 8500 UB, and particularly the AE4000, can look higher in contrast.

what everyone wants to know is how the RS25 actually looks on screen compared to competing 1080p projectors like the Epson 8500 or the Panny AE4000. There is no simple answer to this. The RS25 looks either higher in contrast, or lower in contrast, or equal in contrast to these competing units, depending on the average light level and dynamic range of the scene being projected at the moment. In a dark scene with highlights (a cityscape at night for example), or a scene with a lot of pure black with relatively few highlights (say, rolling credits or the Sony Pictures logo), the RS25 looks higher in contrast than any of its competitors.

So for $8,000 I can watch the credits roll by with superior blacks! yay!

But the $2,000 projector has better contrast in most scenes in a film that are not 80%+ black.

This is what I am talking about and why they need to get it together on the high end or there will be no high end!
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post #25 of 29 Old 11-11-2009, 02:07 PM
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Sounds like you want a Lumis.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #26 of 29 Old 11-12-2009, 03:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krinkle View Post

Well this is what I am talking about - a $2000 projector made by Panasonic vs. THE HIGH END RS25 by JVC for $8000.



So for $8,000 I can watch the credits roll by with superior blacks! yay!

But the $2,000 projector has better contrast in most scenes in a film that are not 80%+ black.

This is what I am talking about and why they need to get it together on the high end or there will be no high end!

it never takes long for a forum member to come on here quoting evan's garbage. the reviews at pc are at best, extremely biased towards lcd displays. i don't even know the measurements, and what he says could be true, but when he uses words like "can look higher in contrast" and not "measured higher in contrast" it seems like he is putting his good old fashioned spin on reality. did you ever notice the big sponser ads on his page........ummm..........panasonic and epson..........makes you wonder how objective the guy can be when ads like that are paying the bills.
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post #27 of 29 Old 11-13-2009, 10:05 PM
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Why the personal snipe? I like the watch and bought it used from someone who defaulted on their mortgage after their business went bankrupt. The new price was much more as it has 96 VS-1 F diamonds and 4 large sapphires.

the poster child for what is terribly wrong with this country.
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post #28 of 29 Old 11-13-2009, 10:28 PM
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I should probably know this, but with some of the advancements in flat panels I've wondered if there is any reasonable way to increase the sizes of the images and get good images. For instance, a 55" LCD with local dimming would have enough light for a 110" image for lots of us in a dark room if it can do close to 50 ft-lamberts at the 55" size, but it just doesn't have the 110" size. There are Fresnel lenses that make images bigger, but also make them look pretty bad. With things like the Brightside display from a few years ago that could put out a ton of light (hundreds of ft-lamberts) there is enough light and I've wondered as OLED gets bigger whether there is any method to use them as a source for a bigger image. I suspect there isn't any reasonable way to do this as somebody would have already (other than some cheap systems using a TV that don't sound like they provide very good images), but figured I would throw it out there just in case anybody has any ideas.

Even something that just barely zoomed the images from a TV could work in some setups if it could make the edge transitions between the images look right, like 4 TVs put against a wall with a screen in front and each TV zoomed up slightly to get rid of the black bars between each TV's image. I wonder how seamless the edges are with Christie's cube system here:

http://controlrooms.christiedigital....llow_depth.htm

--Darin

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post #29 of 29 Old 11-14-2009, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

I should probably know this, but with some of the advancements in flat panels I've wondered if there is any reasonable way to increase the sizes of the images and get good images. For instance, a 55" LCD with local dimming would have enough light for a 110" image for lots of us in a dark room if it can do close to 50 ft-lamberts at the 55" size, but it just doesn't have the 110" size. There are Fresnel lenses that make images bigger, but also make them look pretty bad. With things like the Brightside display from a few years ago that could put out a ton of light (hundreds of ft-lamberts) there is enough light and I've wondered as OLED gets bigger whether there is any method to use them as a source for a bigger image. I suspect there isn't any reasonable way to do this as somebody would have already (other than some cheap systems using a TV that don't sound like they provide very good images), but figured I would throw it out there just in case anybody has any ideas.

Even something that just barely zoomed the images from a TV could work in some setups if it could make the edge transitions between the images look right, like 4 TVs put against a wall with a screen in front and each TV zoomed up slightly to get rid of the black bars between each TV's image. I wonder how seamless the edges are with Christie's cube system here:

http://controlrooms.christiedigital....llow_depth.htm

--Darin

Maybe some sort of 90 degree mirror / lens setup (think of a desktop overhead transparency projector type setup)? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_projector

I remember transparent color LCD panels (probably around 10-13" large) that could be used in conjunction with these overhead projectors in the early 90s. There are lots of variants, including those that would not require a transparent panel, if the brightness on the panel was high enough. You would either need a lens or a curved mirror though, and you are bound to lose ANSI contrast big time because of light scatter with any sort of lens / mirror setup.

Getting geometry perfect would be an issue, but in terms of mounting and space utilization, getting a 100" image out of a mid size display with high enough brightless could be reasonably done with this sort of setup, I'd imagine. Not sure how the economics would play out.
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