Official InFocus Sp8602 owners thread. - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 1992 Old 04-27-2010, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post

Although I can see how Mark's post might annoy you, he does have a point. If I bought the Infocus 8602 because of your hyperbole in one of your posts that stated about the auto iris: "The best thing I can say about the dynamic iris is that I haven't really noticed it doing its stuff, so it must be fairly smooth.", I'd be PO'd! Because it definitely IS noticeable. You'd have to be partially blind not to notice it and it boggles my mind how you were even able to make that statement to begin with. You weren't the only one. So even though everyone is entitled to their own opinion, poster's do have some responsibility to be as accurate as possible with their comments so that they don't mislead other members who look to owner reviews for insight.

Mike. Might have been best for you to read the posts a bit more closely because, having made that comment in an early post (qualifying it as a very early assessment), I then followed it up with several posts explaining that the DI was in fact very noticeable and that I'd turned it off. And those posts were added before the problem was echoed in other reviews.

So far from being inaccurate or misleading my comments were totally honest and I hope helpful, because they at least are coming from someone who actually owns this product, views films on it on a regular basis and is contributing to this thread because he wants to chat with other owners and share experiences.

I've never attacked anyone in any of my reviews, but have tried to stand up for others who have had the validity of their comments questioned.

As stated, read back through past posts a bit more carefully and I hope you'll see this in better context, but I regret standing up for it, as it seems to just lead to even more griping and stuff that is totally off the subject of this thread.

Unfortunately, as someone else mentioned, writing anything on this thread is like walking on egg shells and my intention was to try to tackle that issue rather than add to it, so apologies for that.
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post #632 of 1992 Old 04-27-2010, 03:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jruizcristina View Post

Ok I spoke with Infocus technical service, they tested intensively another unit with a PS3 with no problems at all. So I think I will have my unit replaced. Question for people who have gone through this process: are your replacement units similar enough to the original in picture quality and brightness? how much of a "lotery" is it to get a replacement? Becaus I was very happy with mine if not for this problem

Do not worry, this is not the same as "Lcd" lottery with their panels
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post #633 of 1992 Old 04-27-2010, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintJD View Post

Mike. Might have been best for you to read the posts a bit more closely because, having made that comment in an early post (qualifying it as a very early assessment), I then followed it up with several posts explaining that the DI was in fact very noticeable and that I'd turned it off. And those posts were added before the problem was echoed in other reviews.

So far from being inaccurate or misleading my comments were totally honest and I hope helpful, because they at least are coming from someone who actually owns this product, views films on it on a regular basis and is contributing to this thread because he wants to chat with other owners and share experiences.

I've never attacked anyone in any of my reviews, but have tried to stand up for others who have had the validity of their comments questioned.

As stated, read back through past posts a bit more carefully and I hope you'll see this in better context, but I regret standing up for it, as it seems to just lead to even more griping and stuff that is totally off the subject of this thread.

Unfortunately, as someone else mentioned, writing anything on this thread is like walking on egg shells and my intention was to try to tackle that issue rather than add to it, so apologies for that.

What do you think of the black levels with the DI turned off?
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post #634 of 1992 Old 04-27-2010, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schneider View Post

What do you think of the black levels with the DI turned off?

I'm more than happy with them, but am coming from an IN83, which didn't have the best anyway.

I find that setting the iris on 70 or 80 delivers a great picture - certainly way better than the IN83 - and I'm more than happy with the blacks.
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post #635 of 1992 Old 04-27-2010, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by SaintJD View Post

I'm more than happy with them, but am coming from an IN83, which didn't have the best anyway.

I find that setting the iris on 70 or 80 delivers a great picture - certainly way better than the IN83 - and I'm more than happy with the blacks.

Thanks for the response.

I take it that overall, it's an upgrade from the IN83 and most (if not all) of the issues have been resolved with the firmware upgrade?
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post #636 of 1992 Old 04-27-2010, 10:21 AM
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Most of the time higher (less good) black values are not bothersome. Most scenes are mixed and the contrast range limitations of ones eyes makes the black look very black. Its only when o9ne has black or very dark frames that the the blacks look very gray on most DLP machines. That and less good black levels can limit how high a gamma curve one can run without black crush which means black detail at low levels disappearing into the black background. Some reviewers such as WGR of Wide Screen Review value very high on off CR because they prefer running high gamma rates. For my viewing which is primarily sports I am just fine running video gammas of 2.2 and I prefer the extra pop and sharpness of DLP machines like the Infocus.

For movies that are dark the best overall presentation will probably be with the DI on. Many will not even notice the occasional artifact and when a particular set of picture circumstances cause visible artifacts one can always turn the DI off until those circumstances are no longer present. The beauty of machines having a DI is that it can be switched off and on as the need may arise.

Now there are other problems with DIs or even adjustable arises. A DI can screw up the gray scale. And using an iris, that is, closing an iris down to some degree from fullyopen can cause sharpness to decrease. Sometimes refocusing can get the sharpness back and on some machines it can`t. Since on the maschine I use, it can`t, and because I value sharpness so much, for movies I flip a ND2 filter in front of my lens and bingo, I improve the black reference value by 50% although the brightness also decreasesby the same amount. Tis means the on off stays the same. But the blacks look much better in dark movies. My machine has lots of brightness to spare. But a ND filter will cut the ANSI CR by about 25%. Everything is a trade off. The more you know and become aware of various factors and what they do on your machine, the more the trade off increase but then one can make the best operating settings. Its a hell of a sport.

I ram really happy that Infocus has been quick to fix the problems on the roll out machines and that you guys are enjoying your machines.

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post #637 of 1992 Old 04-27-2010, 11:37 AM
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One question for Mark and for may be other people who are also knowledgeable about dynamic iris and have seen the SP8602. Do you think that an iris working as bad (ie as noticeable) as the SP8602 does, can be fixed via firmware?
I mean, is it really a software issue? From my absolute ignorance position, my blind guess would be that the capabilities of the mechanism that actually moves the iris must have something to do with it, but I sure hope I am wrong!
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post #638 of 1992 Old 04-27-2010, 01:21 PM
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Dynamic irises generally involve an electrically operated mechanical aperture somewhere in the light path (in some cases in the lens but usually not) and a circuit which dynamically boosts the gamma usually for high IRE steps when the iris closes down to improve the blacks. The algorithms which tell the iris how much to close and which control the changes to the gamma curve can obviously be changed by software because they are software. The mechanical device (the iris and the motor or whatever that makes it rapidly open and close pursuit to the algs) can not be changed by software because that device is hardware. The iris has a shape, a degree of reflectivity, and a top speed at which it can respond to changes. These and its placement in the light path all affect its ultimate performance. What exactly is causing the less than good reported performance, I do not know. The algs determine how aggressive the closure is. Most projectors have service menu adjustments by which the degree of aggressiveness can be changed. Some, like Sony, have the aggressiveness function adjustable in the user menu.

I know this really doesn`t definitively answer your question, but I hope it helps.

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post #639 of 1992 Old 04-27-2010, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jruizcristina View Post

One question for Mark and for may be other people who are also knowledgeable about dynamic iris and have seen the SP8602. Do you think that an iris working as bad (ie as noticeable) as the SP8602 does, can be fixed via firmware?
I mean, is it really a software issue? From my absolute ignorance position, my blind guess would be that the capabilities of the mechanism that actually moves the iris must have something to do with it, but I sure hope I am wrong!

Don't know for sure, my gut feeling is no. I say this because you can hear the DI slowly opening and closing, which is why it is so noticeable. I think the mechanism itself is too slow. If it were quicker and made the changes instantly along with the appropriate gamma changes it would rarely be noticeable. Planar's former sales Rep, Brian I believe, specifically mentioned they used a hard drive motor for their DI's because it needed to be quick enough to do the changes on a frame by frame basis and to not to be noticed. I really hope I'm wrong.

Also the Runco uses a unishape lamp which modulates the intensity which Infocus has never claimed to have. Planar and SIM2 are the only DLP manufacturers that I'm aware of that use unishape and I'm sure it's also no coincidence that they also are the only ones that have perfected dynamic black.

I do know that if Bob Williams were still with Infocus he wouldn't have let a flaw like that go by in the design. He (unfortunately for us) went to Planar/Runco and helped design the 8150 (now LS5), which is one of the reasons why their DI is so good. He was also WAY MORE responsive to forum members unlike the supposed Infocus reps we have here now who choose to answer the easy questions and don't respond to the more important difficult questions. A shame really.

That said, with the Iris set to 70% the black level is pretty good (a little lighter than my old JVC RS1) and retains most of its pop. If they could some how fix the iris on this PJ and have the brightness and pop of the Iris at 100% as well as the blackness of it when closed down with out being noticeable, it would be phenomenal!
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post #640 of 1992 Old 04-27-2010, 01:59 PM
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Nice post Mike.

But here I go to defending the Infocus person present here. He is not the design engineer. Bob was for the old Infocus machines and for the Planar 8150, now the LS5. He knows more about projector design than almost anybody. I wouldn`t expect the Infocus person present here to be able to answer the questions like Bob did.

That said Bob spent months making the DI function in the Planar better than competing brands. But even using lamp dimming which Sim2 uses and perhaps Planar, I really don`t remember, perfection was not obtained. A DI system could use lamp dimming and a motorized iris too. The Planar does artifact on occasion and so does the Sim2. There is no free lunch here. A picture is mixed. The iris closes and makes it all dimmer compressing the whites. Boosting the high end gamma can help but it can only do so much. There will be some white compression and some degree of lag time. The worst artifact is pumping. The machine can`t make up its mind because of the mixed picture sometimes and the iris closes and then opens and then closes, trying to correct something when its algs are telling it to do different things based on one picture. I am simplifying here a bit but I think you guys get the idea.

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post #641 of 1992 Old 04-27-2010, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Nice post Mike.

But here I go to defending the Infocus person present here. He is not the design engineer. Bob was for the old Infocus machines and for the Planar 8150, now the LS5. He knows more about projector design than almost anybody. I wouldn`t expect the Infocus person present here to be able to answer the questions like Bob did.
.

Besides Ben, there was also a guy that chimed in that claimed he was part of the design team for the 8602. The guy that claimed color was his utmost priority in the design, which obviously wasn't the DI.
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post #642 of 1992 Old 04-27-2010, 02:29 PM
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Use of a DI will affect the color. That`s another reason why some dislike the use of a DI. This is the reason that Joe Kane recommends leaving it off when you use the Samsung projectors he specked. The DI affects the grays cale I think primarily because of the dynamic changes in gamma. Joe is a color guy being the father of gray scale calibrations to 6500K. Hope you guys aren`t getting too bored by all this. The more you learn, the more you learn but the more complex it gets. Projector design involves almost an infinite set of design compromises. Perfection doesn`t exist and can not be obtained, with cost considerations entering greatly into the equations. Projector life or living with a projector is like living with a woman, the more you know doesn`t make it any easier and sometimes the more you know makes one wonder if you made the right choice.

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post #643 of 1992 Old 04-27-2010, 02:51 PM
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You are in deep waters now comparing projectors with girlfriends, Mark, but aside from that (and I didn't say I disagree ) the previous posts were very enlightening even if I didn't understand all of it. As I suspected, we can't expect DI miracles via firmware. Thx both!
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post #644 of 1992 Old 04-27-2010, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InFocus-Ben View Post

Hello

I’ll try to address the questions posted:

• Upgrade via USB or RS232 – Both work fine with the A70 that is posted.
• Vista/Win7 – The Pixelworks USB driver does not support Vista/Win7 today. The request has been made of Pixelworks and hopefully the upgrade is soon. In the interim, RS232 does work with the A70. We will post this version asap (please given me a couple days to get the web team to upload it). So while not ideal, the upgrade tool exists and we will get you set up if you have Vista or Win7.
• Lock up: I apologize for not reading the entire thread. If anyone continues to have the issue after A70 firmware, can you post specifics (i.e. source, buttons, cables etc). I can have validation try and recreate the problem. With that we can root cause the problem. Early code found an issue with component and a USB cable under a rare combination, but that should be fixed.

Art has been very helpful with his input. We believe we will be able to tune the iris. However, until I get more details, I prefer not say more than we are reviewing and think we will be able to make this even better.

Ben

Hopefully they folllow up on this. It would be nice to hear from ben more often i feel like i know more about the planer 8150/Runco LS5 at this point.
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post #645 of 1992 Old 04-27-2010, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Projector life or living with a projector is like living with a woman, the more you know doesn`t make it any easier and sometimes the more you know makes one wonder if you made the right choice.

Very true, and at some point you have to just sit back and enjoy the movie and not look for defects because if your not carefull you might just find one if you look hard enough. Hopefully one does thier homework first and knows what one is getting into, allthough with the new release of anything you allways take some chance not waiting to see how things pan out first.

And like with women sometimes you have to love the one your with.
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post #646 of 1992 Old 04-28-2010, 01:47 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schneider View Post

Thanks for the response.

I take it that overall, it's an upgrade from the IN83 and most (if not all) of the issues have been resolved with the firmware upgrade?

Definitely much better overall and a very good upgrade if, and only if, the issues are resolved. Until then, while I can say I've been very happy with it indeed as a replacement for the IN83, I wouldn't be able to recommend it, because it doesn't work properly! As mentioned, turning the DI off is fine and the tearing issue has been resolved, but the lock up issue is the big one that needs to go before I can say this is a great purchase (which it very nearly is).

I watched Avatar last night and it was unbelievable – far, far better and more impressive than at the cinema and with enough 3D pop to be 3D enough for me though with so much more detail and depth of color.

Having said that...

I'd thought maybe I was that lucky 1 in a 1,000 not to get a projector with a lock-up problem (or was it the other way round?!), but sadly not.

I did experience my first lock-up issue last night, interestingly having just switched from viewing Sky HD for the first weeks of owning my projector to a blu ray player.

When I went into the blu ray menu and tried to put on the 24p option the projector tried to reset itself for the new resolution, but seemed to get stuck and freeze on the image, then, as other users have said previously, no controls worked, turning off the blu ray didn't work, unplugging the HDMI didn't work, so I had to pull the plug.

Last time I looked, nobody has said this problem has been fixed yet.

I've just emailed IN FOCUS today and from experience they are brilliant and responsive, so hopefully they will get the message.

I'm told that other issues have been resolved with firmware updates and that the next one will look at improving the DI, but this lock-up issue is, to me and I think others, the thing that would stop me buying the projector (if I hadn't already) until I was sure it was fixed.

Out of interest, has anyone figured out any settings/situation where the lock up doesn't happen? Could be coincidence, but I never experienced it on 1080i content.

My projector is table mounted, so it isn't an issue with ceiling mounting, the room isn't what you'd call particularly hot or cold and the vents are clear.

If I was guessing I'd say it is a problem with 24p or an occasional (but all too frequent) glitch that happens when the unit switches between resolutions. Seeing as the tearing issue was 24p connected I'm thinking their testing in this area wasn't all that comprehensive.
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post #647 of 1992 Old 04-28-2010, 04:24 AM
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Mine locked up no matter what you feed it, at any res over any cable you feed it, sd, hddvd or blu-ray feed from oppo83, meridian 598 and hd dvd player.
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post #648 of 1992 Old 04-28-2010, 06:04 AM
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Same thing here, the lockups were constant. But with this replacement unit I have, so far, not had any lockups and believe me I have tried But still I do not feel completely safe.
SaintJD how many hours do you have on yours until the lockup reviled itself?
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post #649 of 1992 Old 04-28-2010, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by thenorthlander View Post

Mine locked up no matter what you feed it, at any res over any cable you feed it, sd, hddvd or blu-ray feed from oppo83, meridian 598 and hd dvd player.

This is a totally random suggestion, but does anyone know if this problem could potentially be caused by the unit being sensitive/getting confused by signals from other remote controls, causing the system to lock-up?

I ask simply because my wife mentioned a while back that on one occasion when she turned our TV off with its remote, the projector started up.

Probably totally unrelated I'm sure.
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post #650 of 1992 Old 04-28-2010, 06:31 AM
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I've just been sent a firmware update with ref 71. Can anyone confirm if they've had this version yet? They tell me it should solve the problems with lock-up and tearing, but interested to hear if anyone else has tried this one.

I won't be able to report back on it for a while anyway as I'm going to need to buy a cable first!

Very quick responsive service from them again though.
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post #651 of 1992 Old 04-28-2010, 06:33 AM
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I think the lock-up issue is definitely when the projector resyncs the resolution. I think I might have had one, one day when playing COD:MW2 on the PS3 (set at 1080p output). No buttons worked except for the auto image button. After the AI button, I shut down the source and receiver, changed the input on the PJ, changed the input back and turned on the devices and it came back up. If it happens again try doing the same.
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post #652 of 1992 Old 04-28-2010, 07:27 AM
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Glad to hear that there is (apparently) a new FW already - that's pretty quick. It was just a couple of weeks since the last one. Hope this means they found the problem.

SaintJD, why the new cable?

I'm currently running a 33 foot HDMI, but I've had it for a couple of years - is anybody running this length? Don't know if it's time to order a new one. I think it's 1.3, but befinitely not 1.3a or later.
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post #653 of 1992 Old 04-28-2010, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schneider View Post

Glad to hear that there is (apparently) a new FW already - that's pretty quick. It was just a couple of weeks since the last one. Hope this means they found the problem.

SaintJD, why the new cable?

I'm currently running a 33 foot HDMI, but I've had it for a couple of years - is anybody running this length? Don't know if it's time to order a new one. I think it's 1.3, but befinitely not 1.3a or later.

I'm running 50', but mine is fiber optic.
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post #654 of 1992 Old 04-28-2010, 08:41 AM
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i am running component cable in my theatre room as the length is 45ft. see u are running 50' of hmdi... any problems?? thanks
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post #655 of 1992 Old 04-28-2010, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post

I think the lock-up issue is definitely when the projector resyncs the resolution. I think I might have had one, one day when playing COD:MW2 on the PS3 (set at 1080p output). No buttons worked except for the auto image button. After the AI button, I shut down the source and receiver, changed the input on the PJ, changed the input back and turned on the devices and it came back up. If it happens again try doing the same.

Brilliant, thanks. Will definitely give that a try - not heard that one before.
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post #656 of 1992 Old 04-28-2010, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schneider View Post

Glad to hear that there is (apparently) a new FW already - that's pretty quick. It was just a couple of weeks since the last one. Hope this means they found the problem.

SaintJD, why the new cable?

I'm currently running a 33 foot HDMI, but I've had it for a couple of years - is anybody running this length? Don't know if it's time to order a new one. I think it's 1.3, but befinitely not 1.3a or later.

Sorry, I meant the computer cable needed to connect a PC for the upgrade - I'm used to working with Macs, USB etc, so don't have the cable required.
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post #657 of 1992 Old 04-28-2010, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by paris401 View Post

i am running component cable in my theatre room as the length is 45ft. see u are running 50' of hmdi... any problems?? thanks

I've been using this cable for about 3 years with 2 different projectors. No problems, it is excellent.

I use the older version of this:

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dcable.jsp?prod_id=5740
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post #658 of 1992 Old 04-28-2010, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post

Besides Ben, there was also a guy that chimed in that claimed he was part of the design team for the 8602. The guy that claimed color was his utmost priority in the design, which obviously wasn't the DI.

Mikenificent, I am the guy you are referring to.

SP8602 is the home theatre version of a business projector targeted for the installation market. Things such as Display Over USB and network connectivity were stripped out and replaced with features such as motion smoothing, and keystone and barrel distortion correction. The colorwheel was replaced with a six segment RGBRGB design capable of spinning slow for best color or fast (Fast Color Refresh) for minimal rainbow artifacts.

Someone asked why SP8602 has three component inputs? Wouldn't three HDMI inputs have been a better choice? Three HDMI inputs would have been more costly but the third component input was simply a redo of the 5-BNC RGBHV input from the business version. How many home theatre people have need for RGBHV input these days?

While not employing Unishape as such, SP8602 does modulate lamp power depending on colorwheel position.

Art Feierman's review was highly critical of DI performance as are many on this forum. Mr. Feierman referred to a scene in Hunt For Red October where he felt the DI movement was particularly noticeable. I loaned my dvd of this movie to my InFocus friends so they could see first hand what Art was talking about.

TI's implementation of dynamic iris is based on the percentage of bright pixels in an otherwise dark scene to determine when the iris should begin to open. Nominally this is set to 0.5%. I believe the latest firmware release sets this threshold to 2.5%. This means a substantially larger bright object in a dark scene must appear before the iris opens. This should make its movement less noticeable.

I agree the lockup issue is a real sore spot. It has been difficult to diagnose. It's never happened on my unit. Thanks to a customer who returned his unit with frequent lockup to InFocus they have been able to narrow the cause to a USB glitch. A fix should be just around the corner.

InFocus won't let you down. They didn't pay me to say that. I just know these people better than you.

Dennis
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post #659 of 1992 Old 04-28-2010, 12:09 PM
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Quote:


While not employing Unishape as such, SP8602 does modulate lamp power depending on colorwheel position.

This really pisses me off. Not because InFocus didn't use it, which would be nice, but because one of InFocus' dealers is blatantly lying and advertising that the 8602 is using Unishape and is one of the reasons I bought this PJ:

"Osram's Unishape technology has also been incorporated into the SP8602."

http://http://www.integrityhometheat...us-sp8602.html

Also, if it's fast enough to modulate based on colorwheel position, why not modulate based on APL as well? That would make the DI less noticeable. No?

Quote:


TI's implementation of dynamic iris is based on the percentage of bright pixels in an otherwise dark scene to determine when the iris should begin to open. Nominally this is set to 0.5%. I believe the latest firmware release sets this threshold to 2.5%. This means a substantially larger bright object in a dark scene must appear before the iris opens. This should make its movement less noticeable.

The problem with the DI is that you can literally see it ramping up or closing down. For example, if you had a full black scene, and then a bright scene right after, it takes at least a full second for the iris to open up and vice versa. So instead of the DI going from 10% to 100% instantly, you can see it open very gradually, going through discrete steps. It's kind of like when you set the iris manually with the remote. If you start at 10% and then use the remote to get to 100%, that's what it looks like.

Quote:


I agree the lockup issue is a real sore spot. It has been difficult to diagnose. It's never happened on my unit. Thanks to a customer who returned his unit with frequent lockup to InFocus they have been able to narrow the cause to a USB glitch. A fix should be just around the corner.

That's great news.

Quote:


InFocus won't let you down. They didn't pay me to say that. I just know these people better than you.

I'm inclined to believe you. Judging by the quick firmware updates, I'd say you're probably right! Thanks a lot for your insight.
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post #660 of 1992 Old 04-28-2010, 02:40 PM
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[quote=Mikenificent1;18553629]tibia;18553026

"This really pisses me off. Not because InFocus didn't use it, which would be nice, but because one of InFocus' dealers is blatantly lying and advertising that the 8602 is using Unishape and is one of the reasons I bought this PJ:"

My apologies. My statement about SP8602 not using Unishape wasn't clear. That technology is fully employed. It's just that we didn't use that term. We mostly referred to it as "dark pulse technology."

Dennis
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