Official InFocus Sp8602 owners thread. - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 1995 Old 03-03-2010, 02:26 AM
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Hi guys. I know a few people on here swapped IN83s for the new unit.

Can you let me know if the difference in brightness is acceptable and/or noticable? I'm told this unit pumps out around 40% less lumens and doesn't really compete with the IN83 even in brightest mode, though black levels are dramatically improved.

Question is, would an average user really notice this that much when viewing mostly films in a darkened room and do the other improved factors negate the difference in any way.
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post #152 of 1995 Old 03-03-2010, 04:54 AM
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Hello, first, sorry for my bad english, i am a french owner of the sp8602 and it is my first digital projector.
The only digital projectors i was able to compare with it were lcd ( epson 8500 and mitsubishi 6800 ).
But i won't be able impartial enough because i don't like lcd technology, that is why i choose dlp.
Otherwise i was the owner of many crt, my last is the electrohome 9000lc, and to compare it, the sp8602 is a little superior in all domains exept black of course, but for me who was an user of crt, black level of the sp8602 are really acceptable.
In fact the biggest difficult for me was the transition between an analogic picture, more "cinema like" and the digital picture more "plasma like" for dlp.
After that i have to admit that out of the box after rapids settings, the image was impressive with more sharpness an much more details in the backgroung, many details i wasn't able to notice with my electrohome.
The brightness is enough to fill my 136 diagonal screen.
My first impression on this unit is really good and i will try to calibrate it this week when it will be on ceiling position.
For now the terms wow, pop and razor describe well this unit.
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post #153 of 1995 Old 03-03-2010, 05:25 AM
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Good notice...
How is the black of SP8602 compared to epson 8500?
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post #154 of 1995 Old 03-03-2010, 08:19 AM
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Right !
Honestly i don't mention a big difference, i was well impressed with the 8500, and it was my final choice.
The only problem was the image wich is more "cold", not enough "vivid" compared to dlp.
Finaly i chose the infocus, really similar to epson with dlp touch.
I think we may see difference in black level if we compare side by side.
For now i don't remember that the black level are really superior on the epson.
Of course the epson is really good and the infocus is certainly not better but similar as long as i remember.
I will try to measure it this weekend.
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post #155 of 1995 Old 03-03-2010, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintJD View Post

Yeah, and these owners also have no real reference to how sharp a razor is. I've got a razor, but it's not very sharp. Actually it is going a bit rusty. Does that mean I can validly say the Optoma 65 is razor sharp and feel happy in my competence? Please, yes.

Well, considering that he owned the IN83 which is arguably the sharpest projector that can be had, I'd say he's as competent as anyone could ask in his opinion of the SP8602's sharpness.
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post #156 of 1995 Old 03-03-2010, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintJD View Post

Question is, would an average user really notice this that much when viewing mostly films in a darkened room and do the other improved factors negate the difference in any way.

In the trade off between brightness and black levels with comparable overall contrast, I've come to two conclusions:

1. In a darkened room, black levels are much more important than brightness. In a darkened room, brightness with lighter black levels lights up the room and can take you out of the movie experience. A projector with the same contrast with less brightness and deeper black levels has the same visual impact in contrast while keeping the room darker and less noticeable. Ever since my room had been darkened, I'd gladly trade brightness for better black levels on my IN83, as long as the overall contrast remains the same. I know you can always reduce the fixed iris on the IN83, but that reduces the contrast too.

2. In an undarkened room, brightness is much more important than black levels. With ambient light, better black levels make no difference and brighter projectors better overpower ambient light for more perceived contrast. The IN83 definitely works wonders for ambient light.
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post #157 of 1995 Old 03-03-2010, 09:28 AM
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Thanks Olivier! So far it's sounding like the SP8602 might become the projector to beat for those who like the DLP picture.
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post #158 of 1995 Old 03-03-2010, 09:40 AM
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Olivier,

Thanks for your impressions.

I'm curious if you also considered/looked at one of the JVC's, as it's a natural step after CRT.

Noah
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post #159 of 1995 Old 03-03-2010, 09:42 AM
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"With ambient light, better black levels make no difference and brighter projectors better overpower ambient light for more perceived contrast."

Not just perceived, onscreen CR is measurably higher under those circumstances.

Noah
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post #160 of 1995 Old 03-03-2010, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [Olivier] View Post

Right !
Honestly i don't mention a big difference, i was well impressed with the 8500, and it was my final choice.
The only problem was the image wich is more "cold", not enough "vivid" compared to dlp.
Finaly i chose the infocus, really similar to epson with dlp touch.
I think we may see difference in black level if we compare side by side.
For now i don't remember that the black level are really superior on the epson.
Of course the epson is really good and the infocus is certainly not better but similar as long as i remember.
I will try to measure it this weekend.

Thanks
Meantime i saw the SP8602

I translate my opinion on it , with google Sorry.

"At last I saw

I begin with you that is a really good projector. The settings are the default ones, so "out of the box, and I only adjusted the iris on" auto "(ie dynamic) and off the ring around bright optics that though choreographed, it is quite bright enough to to get to the screen.

The projector is quiet, a bit less than my 5000 but in general, be a DLP can say that it is silent. the iris could hear a bit but it is much quieter than my 5000 and then in the room the sound was turned off, it was quiet and had the projector to 30cm from the ear.
E 'brighter than my 5000 though I would check with the probe, the real difference, the black level with active dynamic iris is good, I think it's better than my 5000, but it is not a record but I would say "Chissenefrega "because what struck me most is the absolute intelligibility on the low lights really impressive how easy it can be seen all the details (remember that it is virtually in default), the difference with 5000 is evident.
I used it as a test the first part of "Casino Royale" in black and white, especially the part where Bond is sitting in the dark room: it stands out perfectly from the sweater under his coat.
For the record, I personally verified that this "100%" the iris is fixed at the widest.
Returning to the opening scene of 007 above, I must say that I noticed the Rainbow a little (but very little), then after being able to decipher the cryptic entry on the color wheel speed, I managed to Keep it at 6X and have not seen more the rainbow.

I really liked the colors (although the default is a bit loads) and the nuances for me excellent.
the image is very sharp and quite razor without emphasizing the texture if it exists at all in the movie.

The "Motion Smoothing has a rather aggressive intervention already on" Low ". I run veeery smooth panning, but when things get too coincitata, artifacts are generated very noticeable but in a limited portion of the more hectic.
On "High", the effect is too unnatural and movements are speeded up and if any one says that the 5000 uses the FI always on "High".
Many will not like me but in some circumstances, to "low" I could use.
Without MS, however, the InFocus returns panning the material is very fluid for 24p.

The optical lens shift is very limited compared to Epson, and it seems to be almost mandatory to install a ceiling upside down.

The remote is very nice, it is practically a miniature projector, it is easy to handle and has a nice backlight.

I must say that I liked it and recommend it for sure. I hope to bring home soon."
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post #161 of 1995 Old 03-03-2010, 10:13 AM
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Thanks for the comments on brightness etc, I'm really glad of the advice as, for one reason or another, it looks like I'll have to make a decision on this before I see a detailed review.

The good thing is there are previous IN83 users on here, which helps.

Basically I have an IN83 I view mainly for films, sometimes for sport, but always in a darkened room. In daytime that is pretty dark with blackout curtains, but pretty damn dark at night (obviously).

As the new unit is quite a bit dimmer I'm a bit concerned because I like the iris fairly open to avoid a slightly muddy look, but it's good you're saying (if I'm understanding you right) that less lumens doesn't mean you get an image like you'd get when you close the iris down.

I'd never view anything in a bright room on the projector anyway - that's when the TV takes over.

I suppose another question I'm asking myself is, is the new projector actually intended to be a replacement for the IN83 or is it at a lower entry point?

It's a bit cheaper than the IN83 was over here, but then technology has moved on and has gone down in price.

The number of inputs and the improved functionality also suggests it is intended to sit at the IN83's level. Am I right in thinking that?

One thing I do definitely like is the fact you have on-board controls to fall back on if the remote goes.
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post #162 of 1995 Old 03-03-2010, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Color temp on the sp8602 is setup different than on the IN83. I want temp to be 6500k. The IN83 had options of 6500k, 7500k, and 9300k. The sp8602 has warmest, warm, and bright. Which of these settings is the sp8602's equivallent to the IN83's 6500k?

Thanks
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post #163 of 1995 Old 03-04-2010, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintJD View Post

I suppose another question I'm asking myself is, is the new projector actually intended to be a replacement for the IN83 or is it at a lower entry point?

This is my train of thought as well. I recall hearing from someone at Infocus that "the sp8602 is supercharged IN82". The IN83 also sports the superior DC4 vs. the sp8602's smaller .65"dmd...why would infocus short change themselves if this is indeed their flagship model? It would be nice to have them both in the same room for a side by side shootout.
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post #164 of 1995 Old 03-04-2010, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Olivier,

Thanks for your impressions.

I'm curious if you also considered/looked at one of the JVC's, as it's a natural step after CRT.

Unfortunately i don't have the possibility to test the jvc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luelf21 View Post

Color temp on the sp8602 is setup different than on the IN83. I want temp to be 6500k. The IN83 had options of 6500k, 7500k, and 9300k. The sp8602 has warmest, warm, and bright. Which of these settings is the sp8602's equivallent to the IN83's 6500k?

Thanks

Try warm for 6500k, color brillant and gamma on crt (2,5)
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post #165 of 1995 Old 03-04-2010, 05:35 AM
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Almost 60 what is your 5000? What brand projector.
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post #166 of 1995 Old 03-04-2010, 05:56 AM
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It's the EPSON EH-TW5000 , should be the European name of EPSON 7500UB.
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post #167 of 1995 Old 03-04-2010, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrubsr1 View Post

The IN83 also sports the superior DC4 vs. the sp8602's smaller .65"dmd...why would infocus short change themselves if this is indeed their flagship model? It would be nice to have them both in the same room for a side by side shootout.

Probably the biggest complaint with the IN83 is the lack of lens shift, and therefore the IN83 has very limited placement. Probably half of the sales of the IN83 were lost due to limited offset with lack of lens shift. As great as the IN83 is, if it doesn't fit the room, people won't buy it.

The large DC4 would require much more expensive optics for lens shift, whereas the smaller DMD can have lens shift without costing a lot more. So if they want to offer a projector in the same price league as the IN83 but with lens shift, the smaller DMD is required. Smaller sources in optics are MUCH easier to control optically, it is an Etendu relation. Only final comparisions will tell us if there is any compromise.
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post #168 of 1995 Old 03-04-2010, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintJD View Post

I suppose another question I'm asking myself is, is the new projector actually intended to be a replacement for the IN83 or is it at a lower entry point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrubsr1 View Post

This is my train of thought as well. I recall hearing from someone at Infocus that "the sp8602 is supercharged IN82". The IN83 also sports the superior DC4 vs. the sp8602's smaller .65"dmd...why would infocus short change themselves if this is indeed their flagship model? It would be nice to have them both in the same room for a side by side shootout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avmjt View Post

Probably the biggest complaint with the IN83 is the lack of lens shift, and therefore the IN83 has very limited placement. Probably half of the sales of the IN83 were lost due to limited offset with lack of lens shift. As great as the IN83 is, if it doesn't fit the room, people won't buy it.

The large DC4 would require much more expensive optics for lens shift, whereas the smaller DMD can have lens shift without costing a lot more. So if they want to offer a projector in the same price league as the IN83 but with lens shift, the smaller DMD is required. Smaller sources in optics are MUCH easier to control optically, it is an Etendu relation. Only final comparisions will tell us if there is any compromise.

and ontop of what "avmjt" said, Infocus was able to fix their mistake of not offering a projector with a wide variety of placement options. By doing this, per "avmjt", (who is WAY more knowledgable than I) they had to downgrade to the .65" DMD (newest DC3) to accomodate both lens shift for more flexible placement, and also to remain in the same pricerange to tempt more consumers/keep current customers.

to add another thing, InFocus didnt really downgrade in my opinion. They adapted. The one thing that killed them with the IN83, and it shows in Arts review, is the black levels. Color reproduction, Skin tones, Brightness, etc....It was all there to be an "over the top" projector, except for the blacks, even while using the darkchip4. Alls they did was adapt....Downgraded to the Darkchip 3 which is still great, and added a Dynamic Iris and vert/horiz lens shift.

So lets look at the pros/cons of each and see if it really is a downgrade:

SP8602:
Pros:
Better blacks
-Better contrast ratio
-Better placement options
-Same video processor
-very sharp
-Great color/skin tone reproduction
-$3000 cheaper
-Incorporates CFI/motion smoothing

Cons:
-300 lumens less
-I guess it uses a 6 segment wheel instead of a 7.
- darkchip3 (is that a con since it still gives WAY better blacks and doubles the on/off contrast ratio of the IN83?)
-shipped 5 months late

IN83
Pros:
-Great color/skin tone reproduction
-Darkchip4 (even though it has inferior blacks and contrast ratio)
-very sharp
-shipped on time
-7 segment color wheel
-300 lumens more

Cons:
-$3000 more expensive
-very limited placement
-comparatively poor black levels and contrast
-no CFI/motion smoothing

So in my opinion, yeah, the IN83 is a freaking awsome projector, but I do not see how, when looking at the "big picture" (no pun intended) point of view, and not from a parts list point of view that the you could view the SP8602 as a downgrade from the IN83.
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post #169 of 1995 Old 03-04-2010, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luelf21 View Post

...InFocus didnt really downgrade in my opinion. They adapted. The one thing that killed them with the IN83, and it shows in Arts review, is the black levels. Color reproduction, Skin tones, Brightness, etc.....

I'm agree
SP8602 is a good projector. Good colors very sharp etc , as you said.
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post #170 of 1995 Old 03-04-2010, 10:02 AM
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The inclusion of DynamicBlack in the 8602 has a far larger influence on contrast than DC3 vs. DC4. While TI claimed DC4 was good for around a 25% CR increase over DC3, measurements indicated closer to a 10% increase. Cine4home.de tested the IN82 and IN83 and measured only an 8% (4200:1 vs. 3900:1) increase in CR, likely not very noticeable in actual viewing. I have a feeling this accounts for the very limited use of DC4 chips, the small gain in performance is not worth the added cost to the DMD.

A solid DI implementation on the other hand can give a 4X increase in CR. I would gladly take the chip trade in the 8602 as long as the iris is well implemented. I currently own a Benq W5000, which is a DC2 with DynamicBlack. It's a great machine for the money, but the DI implementation could be much better. I am hoping the 8602 iris is on par with the Planar 8150, considered my many to have one of the best dynamic irises around.

On the Planar, the iris is adjusted on a per frame basis and thus reacts very quickly in image changes. My W5000 on the other hand can lag as much as 2 seconds as the iris stops down during a dark scene. Can any current 8602 owners comment on the iris behavior? Can you see any lag in the iris behavior, or is it nice and transparent?
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post #171 of 1995 Old 03-04-2010, 10:09 AM
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Wow, frame by frame auto iris sounds excellent. I sure hope the sp8602 is closer to that than 2 whole seconds.

I still might hold off. I'm a bit surprised that it's been so long since the next DLP chip technology would come along. The Darkchip 4 has been here forever it seems. I surely thought that by now we'd have the next big thing come take the industry over by storm. DLP is really due for it.
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post #172 of 1995 Old 03-04-2010, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avmjt View Post

I'm a bit surprised that it's been so long since the next DLP chip technology might come along. The Darkchip 4 has been here forever it seems. I surely thought that by now we'd have the next big thing come take the industry over by storm. DLP is really due for it.

Dlp technology is implementing 4k technology...I think that's the newest technology they are working on, but that doesn't benefit the home cinema any...mainly commercial cinemas
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post #173 of 1995 Old 03-04-2010, 10:19 AM
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I am afraid that DLP may be near its limit in terms of native contrast from the DMD. Most of the home theater R&D for DLP seems to be going into LED light engines. They are working on Pico projectors, and 4K for commercial cinema as well.

DC4 has remained very limited in implementations. Sim2 CX3, Lumis, Mico, and H5000, all of which are $20K+. Marantz VP11S2, Samsung SP-A900B, and the IN83 are all I can think of. The IN83 is the only sub $10K machine with DC4.
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post #174 of 1995 Old 03-04-2010, 01:43 PM
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In Art's review of the JVC RS35, there's a "preview" of the Infocus SP8602 in the competitors section. The full review of the SP8602 is expected to be up soon.
http://www.projectorreviews.com/jvc/...ompetitors.php

According to Art, the SP8602 is "easily razor sharp", so hopefully he may be considered "competent" enough to use that term

Between the RS35 and the SP8602, I gather that the SP8602 has a tad more "pop and wow" with very good black level performance while the RS35 has the best black level performance.

Quote:
"...it may be one of the few new projectors that can really give the JVC RS35 a run for the money."

I kind of feel that if the SP8602 black levels are a good enough, I might prefer the "pop and wow" of the SP8602 over the RS35. But that's me. I can't use the RS35 anyhow because of input lag for gaming.
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post #175 of 1995 Old 03-04-2010, 03:00 PM
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I'd also like to find out what to expect the cost of replacement lamps to be for the SP8602. The lamp is part# SP-LAMP-054 for the entire lamp assembly, at a lowest price I could find of $350, whereas IN83 bare lamps are everywhere for $150.

I never understood why lamp assemblies are sold, when it's only the lamp that needs replaced, and lamp assemblies always cost more than twice the cost of the bare lamp. It's like spending way more money only to create more needless waste

Are bare lamps even available for the SP8602?
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post #176 of 1995 Old 03-04-2010, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avmjt View Post


I kind of feel that if the SP8602 black levels are a good enough, I might prefer the "pop and wow" of the SP8602 over the RS35. But that's me. I can't use the RS35 anyhow because of input lag for gaming.


I've been flipping back and forth between a Sharp 20k and an RS35 for gaming (COD MW1 and MW2 online) and have never noticed a difference at all and have been really looking for one. What games do you play that this makes such a big difference?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #177 of 1995 Old 03-04-2010, 04:00 PM
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COD MW2 online with a network lag of 50 ms. The JVC RS projectors have measured 200 ms input lag. Maybe the Sharp is up there as well. Anything over 30 ms input lag can begin to cripple you against other players. Most projectors are over 50 ms. I recall the IN83 being only around 5 ms input lag.
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post #178 of 1995 Old 03-04-2010, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone know which settings Art is changing to go from best to brightest mode? And can someone explain what that means...
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post #179 of 1995 Old 03-04-2010, 05:17 PM
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The color temperature is what is changing. For movies you want a color temp of 6500K. Projectors can be brighter at higher (cooler) color temps because the bulbs that are used as a light source have more output in the blue (cooler) part of the spectrum than they due red. So to achieve the property 6500K color temp, you have to cut down on the total light output that would be possible at the cooler settings.
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post #180 of 1995 Old 03-04-2010, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f300v10 View Post

The color temperature is what is changing. For movies you want a color temp of 6500K. Projectors can be brighter at higher (cooler) color temps because the bulbs that are used as a light source have more output in the blue (cooler) part of the spectrum than they due red. So to achieve the property 6500K color temp, you have to cut down on the total light output that would be possible at the cooler settings.

So color temp changes the lumen output that much (250 lumens difference). Per Oliver, for me to get a 6500k image, I should use "warm" color temp, and gamma set to CRT. Based on that, would my lumen output drop? (my color temp is at warmest, and gamma set to film currently.)?
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