NEW MITSUBISHI HC 9000 : FULL HD, 3D and..... Lcos panels - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 832 Old 09-06-2010, 04:19 AM
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Hi,

a "little" product sheet from germany :

http://www.grobi-shop.tv/seiten/file...ium_web_de.pdf

from this site :

http://www.grobi-shop.tv/showpost.php?id=1006

http://translate.google.com/translat...hp%3Fid%3D1006

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post #62 of 832 Old 09-06-2010, 05:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AmigoHD View Post

1000 lumens seems not very much. did they tell if the 1000 lumens are in 2d mode or in 3d mode with the glasses on?

Let say, 200 lumens at the best
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post #63 of 832 Old 09-06-2010, 05:57 AM
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Let say, 200 lumens at the best

xD if that would be true it would be an absolute no go and no hobby cineast - who knows something about projectors - will buy it.
so i guess there is little hope that mitsu will boost the lumens output till the final series.
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post #64 of 832 Old 09-06-2010, 06:30 AM
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Hi,

I hope too, but it must be a real boost.

Read this article and you can see there are a brightness loss around 70 % between 2D and 3D (50 fL on 2D against 15 fL on 3D).

http://ultimateavmag.com/content/dig...-dlp-projector

"With two 300W UHP lamps, this baby is brightTom measured nearly 50 foot-lamberts at 100 IRE with both lamps on! That's way too bright for 2D material, but the glasses reduce the amount of light reaching your eyes by about 70 percent, which results in a 3D peak-white level of about 15fLjust what a projected image in a dark theater should be and a lot brighter than any 3D flat panel and most commercial cinemas I've seen."
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post #65 of 832 Old 09-06-2010, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebes View Post

Hi,

I hope too, but it must be a real boost.

Read this article and you can see there are a brightness loss around 70 % between 2D and 3D (50 fL on 2D against 15 fL on 3D).

http://ultimateavmag.com/content/dig...-dlp-projector

"With two 300W UHP lamps, this baby is brightTom measured nearly 50 foot-lamberts at 100 IRE with both lamps on! That's way too bright for 2D material, but the glasses reduce the amount of light reaching your eyes by about 70 percent, which results in a 3D peak-white level of about 15fLjust what a projected image in a dark theater should be and a lot brighter than any 3D flat panel and most commercial cinemas I've seen."

wow...those glasses are polarized I am sure of, so with shutter glasses the loss will even be higher, right?
so...under 2500 lumens we won't get a "usual" bright image like today on 2d, right?
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post #66 of 832 Old 09-06-2010, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Yep, I saw the 3D demo on the SONY VPL-VW90ES, SXRD pannels and shutter glasses like the HC 9000 and the picture was really too dim

A better solution if you like SONY SXRD pannels, is the CF3D from LG.
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post #67 of 832 Old 09-06-2010, 07:03 AM
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We really have to wait for CEDIA when JVC will announce it's 3D lineup.
Otherwise the new Samsung will be interesting...I am waiting for some reviews then.

The LG is not the way for me to go. It's too expensive here in switzerland (around 9k Euros) and there's the need for a new screen what I have read.
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post #68 of 832 Old 09-06-2010, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Good choice And you're right, you need a special screen for the CF3D.
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post #69 of 832 Old 09-06-2010, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

Yep, I saw the 3D demo on the SONY VPL-VW90ES, SXRD pannels and shutter glasses like the HC 9000 and the picture was really too dim

A better solution if you like SONY SXRD pannels, is the CF3D from LG.

JVC has nothing to offer then SXRD LCoS all the same Dimness
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post #70 of 832 Old 09-06-2010, 07:29 AM
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So im guessing from your in response to the JVC question that the JVC has better 3D effect then the Sony or Mits? I know your all under this NDA nonsense, but can you post a double wink if the 3D on the JVC is good, and just one wink of the JVC has the same dim picture as the Sony and Mits.

Thanks.
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post #71 of 832 Old 09-06-2010, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Is it enough for you ?
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post #72 of 832 Old 09-06-2010, 07:38 AM
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thx kraine :-)
Where can I post my order for a new JVC 3D projector? loL...
Can't await it... xD
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post #73 of 832 Old 09-06-2010, 08:22 AM
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thanks.

Also, how many winks does the Epson get vs. the JVC. 2D only of course.
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post #74 of 832 Old 09-06-2010, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry my stock of winks is empty until the 09/22 !
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post #75 of 832 Old 09-06-2010, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by AmigoHD View Post

thx kraine :-)
Where can I post my order for a new JVC 3D projector? loL...
Can't await it... xD

Call Jason Turk at AVS, after CEDIA.

- Claus {non-Santa model}
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post #76 of 832 Old 09-14-2010, 02:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AmigoHD View Post

xD if that would be true it would be an absolute no go and no hobby cineast - who knows something about projectors - will buy it.
so i guess there is little hope that mitsu will boost the lumens output till the final series.

There must be something we are missing...The projector must be rated at 1000 lumens for 2D. For 3D it would have to be boosted.
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post #77 of 832 Old 09-14-2010, 06:51 PM
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Let me spell it out. Shutter glass technology eats up about 83% of the light available in 2D. That means for a 1000 lumens 2D projector, through the glasses you will get about 170 lumens. For a say 1200 lumens projector which is about the max a projector in the current packages of the JVCs would be about 1200 lumens giving one about 200 lumens. Improve the glasses abit and one will get a little more. Now I wil repeat there are things one could do for a 3D mode to incease the brightness. Overlaping the RGB,boosting the temperature of the white point. There are tricks and since JVC when they told me awhile ago about their models didn`t mention anything about using such tricks. So such tricks are not under any NDA with me. You better believe they are using one such if their brightness is significantly better than the competition. 3D colors are screwed up anyway if you calibrate in 2D. 3D calibration must be performed through the glasses with the glasses on and a spot meter type colorimeter or spectroradiometer must be used. Lets see the best buy ISFers do that.

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post #78 of 832 Old 09-14-2010, 09:07 PM
 
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Let me spell it out. Shutter glass technology eats up about 83% of the light available in 2D. That means for a 1000 lumens 2D projector, through the glasses you will get about 170 lumens. For a say 1200 lumens projector which is about the max a projector in the current packages of the JVCs would be about 1200 lumens giving one about 200 lumens. Improve the glasses abit and one will get a little more. Now I wil repeat there are things one could do for a 3D mode to incease the brightness. Overlaping the RGB,boosting the temperature of the white point. There are tricks and since JVC when they told me awhile ago about their models didn`t mention anything about using such tricks. So such tricks are not under any NDA with me. You better believe they are using one such if their brightness is significantly better than the competition. 3D colors are screwed up anyway if you calibrate in 2D. 3D calibration must be performed through the glasses with the glasses on and a spot meter type colorimeter or spectroradiometer must be used. Lets see the best buy ISFers do that.

If this is the case, then the 3D aspect of the projector would be worthless as soon as the bulb hit 300 hours or so...I find it hard to believe that mits or "any" company for that matter, would release such a projector...They would not be able to sell them. Again, we must be missing "something".
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post #79 of 832 Old 09-14-2010, 09:16 PM
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this is worst than waiting for the product to be available..

Manoj
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post #80 of 832 Old 09-14-2010, 09:28 PM
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Sorry. We are not missing anything. On a 110 inch D 1.3 gain screen, 1000 would give you in 3D about 6 ft lamberts. Cut it in half after aging and whatever and you get 3. The commercial standard is 2 to 4. What don`t we not get? People like bright, just as I prefer it in posters but I am more than willing to settle. Buy a Titan ultra 3D Reference, you can get all the 3D lumens you want. But you have to spend the BIG bucks. I don`t have them. The masses including me will just have to be satisfied getting the commercial 3D standard re brightness at home. Things can be goosed with color accuracy destroying tricks and the masses really don`t care about accurate colors. So some manafacturers will use the tricks and the masses will say wow.

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Sorry. We are not missing anything. On a 110 inch D 1.3 gain screen, 1000 would give you in 3D about 6 ft lamberts. Cut it in half after aging and whatever and you get 3. The commercial standard is 2 to 4. What don`t we not get? People like bright, just as I prefer it in posters but I am more than willing to settle. Buy a Titan ultra 3D Reference, you can get all the 3D lumens you want. But you have to spend the BIG bucks. I don`t have them. The masses including me will just have to be satisfied getting the commercial 3D standard re brightness at home. Things can be goosed with color accuracy destroying tricks and the masses really don`t care about accurate colors. So some manafacturers will use the tricks and the masses will say wow.


Well, I guess they don't get my $$$ until they come with at least 1800 lumens...Maybe LG will come out with an LG-CF181-3-D...
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post #82 of 832 Old 09-14-2010, 11:17 PM
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Well, 1800 given the same parameters would give you 11 ft lamberts out of the box and then after aging yada say 6.5 ft lamberts. Lets assume no aging and compare 6 ft lamberts to 11 ft lamberts. Lets rough it and ay twice as many ft lamberts BUT if you want to double the perceived brightness you must quadruppple the ft l that means from 6 you would need 24. Its a squared function so doubling the foot lamberts would give a perceived brightness of about 40% more, not a hell of a lot That why the big projectors use two bulbs for 3D and only one bulb run less than full for 2D.

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post #83 of 832 Old 09-15-2010, 07:57 AM
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I think these above comments are one of the main reasons that so many of us are willing to ignore 3d for the foreseeable future.
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post #84 of 832 Old 09-15-2010, 08:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Well, 1800 given the same parameters would give you 11 ft lamberts out of the box and then after aging yada say 6.5 ft lamberts. Lets assume no aging and compare 6 ft lamberts to 11 ft lamberts. Lets rough it and ay twice as many ft lamberts BUT if you want to double the perceived brightness you must quadruppple the ft l that means from 6 you would need 24. Its a squared function so doubling the foot lamberts would give a perceived brightness of about 40% more, not a hell of a lot That why the big projectors use two bulbs for 3D and only one bulb run less than full for 2D.

I dunno...40% might just be enough to get me in the game. I'll buy from a dealer who will let me return with under 4 hours...I will know in that time if the 3D is acceptable or not. Damn, I can't wait!...I didn't think I wanted 3D right now, but the more I see it, the more I want it... I really like the discovery type stuff...
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post #85 of 832 Old 09-15-2010, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Let me spell it out. Shutter glass technology eats up about 83% of the light available in 2D. That means for a 1000 lumens 2D projector, through the glasses you will get about 170 lumens. For a say 1200 lumens projector which is about the max a projector in the current packages of the JVCs would be about 1200 lumens giving one about 200 lumens. Improve the glasses abit and one will get a little more. Now I wil repeat there are things one could do for a 3D mode to incease the brightness. Overlaping the RGB,boosting the temperature of the white point. There are tricks and since JVC when they told me awhile ago about their models didn`t mention anything about using such tricks. So such tricks are not under any NDA with me. You better believe they are using one such if their brightness is significantly better than the competition. 3D colors are screwed up anyway if you calibrate in 2D. 3D calibration must be performed through the glasses with the glasses on and a spot meter type colorimeter or spectroradiometer must be used. Lets see the best buy ISFers do that.

Not fully correct (in regards to what JVC is doing).
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post #86 of 832 Old 09-15-2010, 08:55 AM
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I have not been updated for quite some time as to the technology they are using to get increased brightness. So I suspect I am not quite right. In fact most who know me know that I am not quite right. Everyone in this business or who is obsessed with the art and science of HT won`t be quite right.

If I knew everything right now, Cedia would not hold any excitement for me. Eight days from now I will be on the Cedia floor as you will be. And a few hours more than 8 days from now we will both be able to gaze on each other`s ugly pusses as we chow down at the first of the two unofficial AVS dinners. Craft is going to knock your socks off but it will seriously dent your wallet. I hope Alan gave you a hefty expense allowance for the trip. We all look forward to seeing you. Please be sure to go over to the $20K Cedia thread to get the latest on the groups` dinner plans.

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post #87 of 832 Old 09-15-2010, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

I think these above comments are one of the main reasons that so many of us are willing to ignore 3d for the foreseeable future.

Rather than ignore a new feature/technology based on theory and hypothesizing posts from others at AVS prior to product availability, why not wait and form a real opinion based on the performance characteristics *of the actual products* when they arrive?

You may still decide to ignore 3D. But at least you'll be deciding based on actual performance versus someone's hypothesis about possible performance.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #88 of 832 Old 09-15-2010, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

Rather than ignore a new feature/technology based on theory and hypothesizing posts from others at AVS prior to product availability, why not wait and form a real opinion based on the performance characteristics *of the actual products* when they arrive?.

I will of course do what you say. Like all here, I'm simply speculating on what my preferences are and reserve the right to switch them without notice.

What motivated my remarks are that I really do like a bright pic, > 20 ftL, and Mark H's prognostications about the brightness (or lack thereof) suggested that this is simply not in the cards at present for a 3d pic. However, we may all be surprised next week.
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post #89 of 832 Old 09-15-2010, 10:31 AM
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Its fun to speculate David. It kills the anxiety associated with knowing that you don`t know. Not exactly a blissful situation. of course one to say bet a few bucks on say a NFL game or some other form of gambling but here you can gamble so to speak on your speculation and if you are wrong, no big deal. Anyone is always free to change their mind.


David. You never told us home many times you saw Avatar. I bet you hold the record for AVS members and you might consider trying to get it in the Guiness book of world records. Once was enough for me. And I won`t buy it in 3D or 2D. I am looking forward to Secretariat in 2D.

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post #90 of 832 Old 09-15-2010, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

I will of course do what you say. Like all here, I'm simply speculating on what my preferences are and reserve the right to switch them without notice.

What motivated my remarks are that I really do like a bright pic, > 20 ftL, and Mark H's prognostications about the brightness (or lack thereof) suggested that this is simply not in the cards at present for a 3d pic. However, we may all be surprised next week.


I feel the same way... I like a bright picture and though I do love 3D, I do *not love* having to choose between a satisfyingly bright/saturated image and a 3D image.

I'm hoping that within a generation or two a home-3D projection solution will arrive that won't necessiate the compromise.

dave

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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