NEW MITSUBISHI HC 9000 : FULL HD, 3D and..... Lcos panels - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 832 Old 06-03-2010, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Here are the first europeans infos about the new MITSUBISHI HC 9000 that will be shown at IFA BERLIN in september 2010 :

Price around : Between 5000 and 5900 euro
Availibility : January 2011
Technology : SXRD
3D compatibility
200/240Hz
Shutter Glasses

http://www.cinetson.org/phpBB3/proje...os-t32024.html
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post #2 of 832 Old 06-04-2010, 07:47 AM
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Very interesting. I guess it makes sense for at least one of the manufacturers licensing 3LCD from Epson to branch out a little.
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post #3 of 832 Old 06-06-2010, 09:15 PM
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"I guess it makes sense for at least one of the manufacturers licensing 3LCD from Epson to branch out a little."

SXRD is Sony's LCOS (reflective panel), not Epson's LCD (transmissive panel).

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post #4 of 832 Old 06-06-2010, 11:01 PM
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i thought thats what he meant

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post #5 of 832 Old 06-07-2010, 04:04 AM
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A year or so ago I remember reading an article in which someone reported on touring Epson's projector facilities in Japan. That article reported that Epson's LCD panel technology would be phased out in the coming years in favor of new Epson-made LCOS panels.

I guess this is the year.

I wonder if this new Mitsubishi projector will use the Epson panels or Sony's as is reported in the article. Sony has already sold panels to LG so maybe Sony is moving in and courting Epson's partners now that Epson is moving to LCOS. Maybe Epson is not selling its new LCOS panels at all. Time will tell.

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post #6 of 832 Old 06-07-2010, 04:27 AM
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Here is the post about Epson's LCOS panels.

It says:

Quote:


LCD panel technology for projection seems to be at the end of the line. No big improvements in store for us, anymore. No 4k, either. Epson has already been working on their own LCOS panels for some years, though (!!). According to the EG LCOS could come in maybe 2 years from Epson. He believes Epson will bring LCOS projectors sooner than LED powered projectors!


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post #7 of 832 Old 06-07-2010, 01:54 PM
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LCD from Epson is at the end of line, no general improvement to expect
EP anounced reflective LCD = LCOS, but when do they start in the market?

SXRD (sony) is faster then DILA (JVC)
SXRD provide more brightnes too
both are important for 3D.

Seems Mitsubishi took the right choice.
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post #8 of 832 Old 06-07-2010, 04:05 PM
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Absolutely. LCD is an inferior technology to SXRD. Costs for both are similar, what is the reason for continuing to foster an inferior technology on anyone? Another interesting thing is that better performanace from existing SXRD chips is possible. Changing how they are driven. See Mark Peterson`s blog Videovantage.

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post #9 of 832 Old 06-07-2010, 04:41 PM
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Since SXRD is a registered trademark of Sony for their LCoS display technology, it's virtually certain that Mits is getting their display chips from Sony (as is LG with their new SXRD projectors). Also while Mits has been selling LCD projectors with the display chips sourced from Epson, they have also sold DLP projectors using DMD chips sourced from TI. So Mits has no issue with buying the display chips from whichever OEM can supply what they are looking for.

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post #10 of 832 Old 06-09-2010, 11:12 AM
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Any one know if the projector going to be able to game at 1080p60 in 3d on a computer?

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post #11 of 832 Old 06-09-2010, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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That's a little bit earlier to get full specs.
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post #12 of 832 Old 06-10-2010, 12:37 PM
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so it's 5000 euro over in Germany, and they usually sell projectors cheaper here in the US, I am hoping the MSRP would be around $5000USD, with the street price of $4000? The performance is equal to a sony vw85...If this is the case, This would be my next projector.
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post #13 of 832 Old 06-14-2010, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sethk View Post

Very interesting. I guess it makes sense for at least one of the manufacturers licensing 3LCD from Epson to branch out a little.

I agree...nice to see them moving to a superior technology...should open a world of improvements...
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post #14 of 832 Old 06-19-2010, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

I agree...nice to see them moving to a superior technology...should open a world of improvements...

Is there a concern about the robustness of the SXRD panels given all of the troubles Sony has had with discolorations arising in their SXRD rear-projection TVs (all have 0.61-inch microdisplay panels)? Sony seems to have gone through several rounds of re-engineering attempts at making them last longer, but they were compelled to extend the warranties on all of their SXRD TVs, and there have been a number of class action lawsuits due to degradation-related premature failures covering every model, as well. Has LG tested the panels to make sure they will last?

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post #15 of 832 Old 06-19-2010, 12:41 PM
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splinke -- With SXRD (LCoS) panels, or the JVC D-ILA version, the colors are determined by filters and not by the panels, themselves (which are basically mirrors). In addition, I think the RPTVs might have higher internal temperatures than the front projector versions, which can effect the stability of the color filters. Therefore, I don't think those problems translate into the PJ world (Sony, JVC, the new LG CF181D SXRD PJ, or this Mitsubishi version).

Both the Sony SXRD and JVC D-ILA LCoS PJs (Front Projectors) have been in production for quite a few years. Posting information about RPTV problems is of questionable value in a front projector thread. Those are two entirely different design technologies.

BTW this thread is about the new, unreleased, Mistubishi HC9000 model and not the LG CF181D which also uses the SXRD panels.

I haven't read of any color stability problems with Sony's LCoS front projectors, and the JVC versions certainly don't have those kinds of problems. Based on the Mitsubishi LCD PJs, they have excellent (and quiet fans) cooling air flow. I don't see them changing those design parameter requirements in their SXRD design.

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post #16 of 832 Old 06-19-2010, 01:10 PM
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There actually have been discussions around the reliability of Sony's SXRD panels in front projectors. If you search, you will find threads that discuss this. Cine4home stopped selling Sony projectors because the contrast ratio dropped over time. UMR, here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post18105169 , recommends against buying Sony projectors because of this panel stability. So it was a good question splinke. I myself chose the JVC over the Sony and reliability was one of the reasons.

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post #17 of 832 Old 06-20-2010, 12:31 PM
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Well, this certainly is interesting. I wonder if the HC6800 and HC7000 will continue to be produced. I am not thrilled with the prospect of a LCOS Mitsubishi, but it could mean a significant improvement in contrast levels over the HC7000. Then again, LCOS panel tech is not without it's issues and most LCOS projectors have not been of the sharpest in terms of image quality. On the other hand, there is the potential for the HC9000 to have both a very high contrast ratio AND a very sharp picture, considering Mitsubishi projectors up to this point. I wonder if the sharpness of Mitsubishi projectors like the HC6800 and HC7000 and predecessors is due to Mitsubishi overall projector optical design and glass lens. Did the sharpness depend in part on the use of lcd tech? Will a switch to LCOS cause a slight reduction in Mitsubishi pj sharpness when comparing HC9000 to 6800/700 etc? Whatever the case, it is possible that an HC9000 could be one of the sharper LCOS projectors. This combination of high contrast tech and high sharpness will be very tasty for many projector buyers.
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post #18 of 832 Old 06-20-2010, 12:51 PM
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The HC6800 with remain, the HC7000 will go.
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post #19 of 832 Old 06-20-2010, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post

...Did the sharpness depend in part on the use of lcd tech? Will a switch to LCOS cause a slight reduction in Mitsubishi pj sharpness when comparing HC9000 to 6800/700 etc? Whatever the case, it is possible that an HC9000 could be one of the sharper LCOS projectors. This combination of high contrast tech and high sharpness will be very tasty for many projector buyers.

I think the initial picture quality produced by the Sony SXRD panels is quite good. The problem is that they are apparently much more susceptible (e.g., relative to the JVC D-ILA panels) to degradation arising from exposure to heat and light, particularly light in the deep blue-ultraviolet range. This may be a result of Sony's optical block design around the panels, but it is typically the panels themselves that must be replaced in rebuilt optical blocks, at least in the rear-projection TVs (I'm not sure about the front projectors).

Sony apparently made several attempts to redesign their optical blocks from the initial introduction of the SXRD TVs in 2004 through their abandonment of the technology in TVs in 2007. Early on, they recognized the UV sensitivity of the panels, and it was revealed in a class action lawsuit that they had attempted to increase UV filtering and changed the amount of a specific compound in the panels to help make them less sensitive. However, the newest models are still failing with the same types of issues as the earliest ones, but the failures seem to be delayed until higher numbers of hours are reached. For details, see my informational web site (link in my signature).

Perhaps LG has done something else in its optical block design to prolong the life of the panels, or perhaps the panels they intend to use are of a completely different design. I don't have any direct knowledge of this, and I don't want to propagate bad information. It's just something to be aware of.

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post #20 of 832 Old 06-20-2010, 06:35 PM
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Hmmm... no more HC7000?

Yeah, no question about the Sony SXRD TV's. I have a friend who's 60" TV's optical block went bad. He got a newer panel at a reduced cost. Projectors we're still not sure about.

I think what will be interesting is whether or not the HC9000 compete's with the Sony VW85.
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post #21 of 832 Old 06-21-2010, 08:01 AM
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post #22 of 832 Old 06-21-2010, 10:37 AM
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cpc -- If the SXRD panels are having reliability problems, then dropping the HC7000 model would be a bad decision, IMHO. Even though the HC7000 is an older model, it delivers a better picture than the HC6800 (although the HC6800 is a brighter PJ).

umr -- Jeff, do you know if Sony still has it's own "foundry" for their SXRD panels? I was wondering if they might have subcontracted, at least part of, that operation to LG's manufacturing facilities. They were the exclusive manufacturer's of their "SXRD" version of LCoS panels, AFIK.

NOTE: I haven't researched the Sony's at all (hence my ignorance of the SXRD problems - my apologies splinke). If I ever decide to move up into the over $3K PJs, I would look at the JVC's first, anyway.

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post #23 of 832 Old 06-21-2010, 01:34 PM
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CT_Wiebe

Yes, I agree it would be unfortunate if they dropped the HC7000. This may be the thing that prods me once and for all to buy one. I've been in financial dire straits for a while, but I could make the investment once and for all. Like I said before, if the HC9000 proves to be good, I could upgrade to that one later.
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post #24 of 832 Old 06-21-2010, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

umr -- Jeff, do you know if Sony still has it's own "foundry" for their SXRD panels? I was wondering if they might have subcontracted, at least part of, that operation to LG's manufacturing facilities. They were the exclusive manufacturer's of their "SXRD" version of LCoS panels, AFIK.

I do not know what they are doing about manufacturing SXRD.
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post #25 of 832 Old 06-22-2010, 05:16 AM
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Well, Sony is going ahead with sxrd in the cinema market with xenon lamps hitting the panels with severar kW of energy.
Someone in the expense forum had gained access to sxrd lift time data for the cinema projectors and that was ok.

Mobile phones are manufactured with a certain life time expectancy. This might be what Sony is ok with as far as sxrd is concerned. If I can get 5000 hours of good performance from sxrd I will be satisfied. However if you are using up 3000 hours of projector time in a year dlp might be the way to go.

My guess is that any problems will be history once Sony abandons lamps in favour of lasers.
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post #26 of 832 Old 06-22-2010, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

...Someone in the expense forum had gained access to sxrd lift time data for the cinema projectors and that was ok...

What does this mean? Can you provide a link?

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post #27 of 832 Old 06-22-2010, 02:32 PM
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1 There was no link to any public data posted nor was it made public.
2 I remember reading the post in the expensive forum in a discussion about 4K and the discussion got into issues with heat and life time of liquid crystal technology.

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post #28 of 832 Old 06-22-2010, 04:58 PM
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JVC has also had a lot if problems with their now discontinued DILA RPTVs. The blue polarizer/filters fail (normally slowly over several thousand of hours of use) and JVC never fixed the problem on their final couple of generations of RPTVs (sold until sometime in 2008). Thie issue on my JVC become noticable at about 6000 hours of use. After the 1 yr. warrantly is over, the only solution offered by JVC is to replace the light engine that, which with the cost of labor to install, is more $$$ than the value of the RPTV. As far as I know there was no class action suit against JVC (and some have reported the JVC wasn't even able to provide a replacment light engine), as there was against Sony that forced them to at least provide some relief to their SXRD RPTV owners. Since RPTVs will typically get a lot of hours of use per year as compared to front projectors (living room vs. home theater application for many users), I'm not convinced that we be certain that at least some JVC front projectors (or Sony for that matter) are free of similar problems to their LCoS RPTVs.

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post #29 of 832 Old 06-22-2010, 05:31 PM
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The link below has my general observations on reliability. Three chip DLP is the least likely to degrade, but it is much more expensive than 1080p DILA or SXRD.

http://homecinemaguru.com/?p=584
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post #30 of 832 Old 06-22-2010, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

JVC has also had a lot if problems with their now discontinued DILA RPTVs. The blue polarizer/filters fail (normally slowly over several thousand of hours of use) and JVC never fixed the problem on their final couple of generations of RPTVs (sold until sometime in 2008). Thie issue on my JVC become noticable at about 6000 hours of use. After the 1 yr. warrantly is over, the only solution offered by JVC is to replace the light engine that, which with the cost of labor to install, is more $$$ than the value of the RPTV. As far as I know there was no class action suit against JVC (and some have reported the JVC wasn't even able to provide a replacment light engine), as there was against Sony that forced them to at least provide some relief to their SXRD RPTV owners. Since RPTVs will typically get a lot of hours of use per year as compared to front projectors (living room vs. home theater application for many users), I'm not convinced that we be certain that at least some JVC front projectors (or Sony for that matter) are free of similar problems to their LCoS RPTVs.

.

JVC is in no way trouble free. I just find their units to hold up better than SXRD and are much cheaper than a three chip DLP and have better native contrast than other options.

I would not consider any projector purchase to be for more than 5,000 to 10,000 hours unless it is a DLP.
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