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post #1 of 43 Old 06-10-2010, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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great another this vs that thread. I am trying to decide between these two. The LG is $400 more. My screen is 126 inch. throw distance is 15 feet. I do need a very small amount of vertical shift. I would like a sharp image with great color and little motion blur. I know that all projectors have their issues that are picked apart on these forums. Even Art couldn't decide between these two, so is it really fair for me to ask you all? I figured I would give it a try.
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post #2 of 43 Old 06-10-2010, 02:28 PM
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Can I add the Vivitek H5080 to this discussion? It seems these are the current choices for non-lcd based projectors with similar price points. The W6000 is reviewed as being a light canon but might lag in color accuracy. The LG being SXRD may be prone to convergence issues. As said many times, pick your poison. It seems some of us are having a hard time picking the poison.

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post #3 of 43 Old 06-10-2010, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
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not another one to consider that one is 700 more than the benq so it would need to be significantly better.
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post #4 of 43 Old 06-10-2010, 07:16 PM
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These are the two I am looking at and this thread might help. Hope it stays on topic and discusses these two only.
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post #5 of 43 Old 06-10-2010, 07:20 PM
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Do screenshots tell us anything. What if they are side by side, do they tell a relative story? Compare the two I attached. One looks great to me and the other looks terrible to me. Any body else agree?

These pics were taken from www.projectorreviews.com.

BTW, my current PJ is a Benq PE8700.
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post #6 of 43 Old 06-10-2010, 09:21 PM
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If you were going to include the Vivitek H5080 for $2700 then your too close to the RS10 which can be found for $2999 and IMO is the best PJ under $3000.

Back on topic:

I would choose the LG even though the BenQ has slightly better blacks because you don't have to worry about you or any of your potential viewers having issues with RBE.
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post #7 of 43 Old 06-11-2010, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbone61554 View Post

Do screenshots tell us anything. What if they are side by side, do they tell a relative story? Compare the two I attached. One looks great to me and the other looks terrible to me. Any body else agree?

These pics were taken from www.projectorreviews.com.

BTW, my current PJ is a Benq PE8700.

You can't seriously use screen shots to compare pjs. I have had both in my theater and could easily make the LG look every bit as good as the BenQ. And I could easily take an out of focus shot as well. Both pjs are very good and it comes down to technology. I like the LGs LCoS better for movie watching and wouldn't do DLP since RBE is and always will be there with their single chip pjs. But that's just me...

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post #8 of 43 Old 06-11-2010, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbone61554 View Post

Do screenshots tell us anything.

Not really.

Quote:


What if they are side by side, do they tell a relative story?

Not as far as quality goes.

Screenshots are really of very little use beyond being "fun" to look at. They really can't tell you anything useful except in some very specific circumstances and even then only if they were taken with the exact same camera settings (including focus, position, and camera) and ideally in the same room.

Take for example the brightness difference. It's apparent in the side by side of the screenshots, but it's what, maybe 20%? Without seeing that side by side, there's no way you'd notice that. Your eyes adjust. This is why people can be happy with CRT projectors that can only do like 4-6 ftL. It's also one reason why it's so hard to get a good apparent black level on a projector.

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Originally Posted by palofex View Post

I would choose the LG even though the BenQ has slightly better blacks because you don't have to worry about you or any of your potential viewers having issues with RBE.

I wouldn't, IMO RBE is way, way overblown, still. I'm not trying to make light of the "plight" of those who suffer from it, but there's no way it's a widespread issue. I've never had anyone complain in my HT (which had a W5000 in it for a while).

If you aren't bothered by RBE and nobody who's going to view it regularly (like familly members) there's no reason to even worry about it IMO.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #9 of 43 Old 06-11-2010, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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bought the Benq this morning decided that if I am having this much trouble deciding that I will save myself $400. Hope that I don't have RBE issues, I don't think I do because I did watch some rear projection DLP in the past without issue. So now I just need to decide on screen, leaning toward carada ccw or briliant white, it will be in a basement with decient light control.
Here is the system as I have it now.

Paradigm millenia 200 towers,
paradigm millenia 20 center
Tru-audio inwalls for the 4 surrounds
paradigm pdr10 sub
onkyo tsxr608 reciever
Benq w6000
likely will due play station 3 for blu-ray

Thanks for all the help.
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post #10 of 43 Old 06-11-2010, 07:47 PM
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Joe. If RBE were taken out of the equation which would you choose? It sounds as if the Benq would be your choice. Is this correct? Thanks.










Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

You can't seriously use screen shots to compare pjs. I have had both in my theater and could easily make the LG look every bit as good as the BenQ. And I could easily take an out of focus shot as well. Both pjs are very good and it comes down to technology. I like the LGs LCoS better for movie watching and wouldn't do DLP since RBE is and always will be there with their single chip pjs. But that's just me...

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post #11 of 43 Old 06-12-2010, 04:59 AM
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Please post some screenshots of the projector and in action.

I'm in the process to decide between this one and the Epson 8500ub.

You can also do a mini-review and tell us if you do see RBE.
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post #12 of 43 Old 06-12-2010, 06:52 AM
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Whatever you choose, it will turn out to be the wrong choice and you will regret it. I am not trying to be snide. And you can blame it all on the ultimate projector God, Art. If only he would ultimately prefer one you could sleep once again, make your choice, and know you made the right one. If WE make a choice based on ownership of one or the other or a bias towards one technology or the other based historically on artifacts which like have been ameliorated with generation advancement, or based on individual viewing priorities such as sharpness vs black levels, yada yada, you no matter what you choose will ultimately feel you made the wrong choice. The solution here is to step up and buy something costing a little more that is clearly better. I bought a X instead you can tell all and I love it. As you fall asleep, you can whisper even Art loved it.

Hope you enjoyed this. Its a tough choice and really its up to you. If you could pick your top PQ priority, say color accuracy or sharpness etc, the answer between the two might be simple. Trying to do a weighted average betwen the two, weighted by the opinion of others among other weights, you are doomed.

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post #13 of 43 Old 06-12-2010, 10:07 AM
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Good job trying not to be "snide".
Well, I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but whats the point of a forum if we can't ask questions. If we only ask questions that are smart enough for you, then we would already know it all. Thanks and I'll look for you not to offer any opinions in the future. I wouldn't want you to doom me.


As a side note. Art it looks like Mark is jealous and can't stand people valuing your opinion and not asking his. Maybe once a week we can ask Mark a token question to make him feel important.


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Whatever you choose, it will turn out to be the wrong choice and you will regret it. I am not trying to be snide. And you can blame it all on the ultimate projector God, Art. If only he would ultimately prefer one you could sleep once again, make your choice, and know you made the right one. If WE make a choice based on ownership of one or the other or a bias towards one technology or the other based historically artifacts which like have been ameliorated with generation advancement, or based on individual viewing priorities such as sharpness vs blac levels, yada yada, you no matter what you choose will ultimately feel you made the wrong choice. The solution here is to step up and buy something costing a little more that is clearly better. I bought a X instead you can tell all and I love it. As you fall asleep, you can whisper even Art loved it.

Hope you enjoyed this. Its a tough choice and really its up to you. If you could pick your tiop PQ priority, say color accuracy or sharpness etc, the answer between the two might be simple. trying to do a weighted average betwen the two, weighted by the opinion of others among other weights, you are doomed.

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post #14 of 43 Old 06-12-2010, 11:41 AM
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You are taking it the wrong way. Seriously. You can ask any question you want. And I if I can will try an answer. And if you you see my post, I asked a question, can you identify your PQ priorities? All technologies have strengths and weaknesses. Then various projectors using the same technology have strengths and weaknesses. Art couldn`t, applying his own set of values, conclude one was better than the other. This is maddening for a consumer. So you ask the masses. What should you get? Buy the one I bought because I decided its was the best. But what is the value to you of that decision? The best you can hope for is to value your priorities. What do you value re PQ the most. Then it would be fairly easy to pick what machine does what the best. You are condemning me for being honest. I am not condemning you at all and frankly I really don`t care what a reviewer concludes in total. I look at to his measurements and comparative individual PQ observations. One is sharper, or one has an absolute lower ref value for blacks. But an reviewer can make set up mistakes just like any consumer. This is not a bathroom contest. I was trying to help. I do think I now how you are frustrated and I am not trying to frustrate you more.

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post #15 of 43 Old 06-12-2010, 10:57 PM
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Tho only dumb question is one not asked. Unfortunately your know it all attitude may turn some people off from asking advice or a question. That would be a shame.

No matter how ignorant you think it is, my question stands for joerod. If RBE were not an issue, which of these two would you prefer. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

You are taking it the wrong way. Seriously. You can ask any question you want. And I if I can will try an answer. And if you you see my post, I asked a question, can you idemtify you PQ priorities. All technologies have strengths and weaknesses. Then various projectors using the same technology have strengths and weaknesses. Art couldn`t applying his own set of values concluse one was better than the other. This is maddening for a consumer. So you ask the masses. What can you get? Buy the one I bought because I decided this was the best. But what is the value to you of that decision? The best you can hope for is to value your priorities. What do you value re PQ the most. Then it would be fairly easy to pick what machine does what the best. You are condemning me for being honest. I am not condemning you at all and frankly I really don`t care what a reviewing concludes in total. I look at to his measurements and comparative individual PQ observations. One is sharper, or one has an absolute lower ref value for blacks. But an reviewer can make set up mistakes just like any consumer. This is not a bathroom contest. I was trying to help. I do think I now how you are frusted and I am not trying to frustrate you more.

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post #16 of 43 Old 06-13-2010, 12:00 AM
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When it comes down to Benq 6000 vs LG, the following apply:

The Benq can have perfect color as long as you calibrate it or get it ICF'd, otherwise color accuracy may be an issue.

The LG will not be as sharp as the Benq w6000, which is pretty much the sharpest projector under 5K (or at least one of them). Not just because it's DLP, but even for DLP it's an extra-sharp projector.

The LG's sharpness may vary more on a unit to unit basis because of convergence, so it is possible to get one that is very sharp.

I've seen some ANSI contrast numbers posted from the BENQ that seem bothersome, but no way in knowing if the posted numbers are valid, although people did claim that it was posted by an expert. This may be due to the lamp design as it was designed more for maximum brightness. Ansi contrast adds to that 3D pop in bright scenes when you have a very dark viewing environment.

Personally, I would probably go with the LG because despite people saying "RBE isn't an issue for most", it can become an issue depending on what you are doing.

I had several friends that could not see RBE, but I could throw a trailing mouse pointer over a black screen and then all of them saw it. After they saw it once, then a few started noticing it on black screens during movies. At least some people don't see it only because they seem to not be as perceptable, but some people their eyes are just slower or something.

RBE has been a deal breaker for me in the past even though I the DLP picture is usually superior in other aspects to LCD (at least the ones I've seen).
Not saying RBE will be an issue for you, but given the other factors, the LG is probably the safer bet.


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post #17 of 43 Old 06-13-2010, 12:14 AM
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Thanks coderguy. Great post. I have had a Benq PE8700 for 4 or 5 years and have never seen a rainbow. Nor has anyone else in my family. Sounds like we are very fortunate. I loved the picture quality of the 8700, it has just always been too dark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

When it comes down to Benq 6000 vs LG, the following apply:

The Benq can have perfect color as long as you calibrate it or get it ICF'd, otherwise color accuracy may be an issue.

The LG will not be as sharp as the Benq w6000, which is pretty much the sharpest projector under 5K (or at least one of them). Not just because it's DLP, but even for DLP it's an extra-sharp projector.

The LG's sharpness may vary more on a unit to unit basis because of convergence, so it is possible to get one that is very sharp.

I've seen some ANSI contrast numbers posted from the BENQ that seem bothersome, but no way in knowing if the posted numbers are valid, although people did claim that it was posted by an expert. This may be due to the lamp design as it was designed more for maximum brightness. Ansi contrast adds to that 3D pop in bright scenes when you have a very dark viewing environment.

Personally, I would probably go with the LG because despite people saying "RBE isn't an issue for most", it can become an issue depending on what you are doing.

I had several friends that could not see RBE, but I could throw a trailing mouse pointer over a black screen and then all of them saw it. After they saw it once, then a few started noticing it on black screens during movies. At least some people don't see it only because they seem to not be as perceptable, but some people their eyes are just slower or something.

RBE has been a deal breaker for me in the past even though I the DLP picture is usually superior in other aspects to LCD (at least the ones I've seen).
Not saying RBE will be an issue for you, but given the other factors, the LG is probably the safer bet.

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post #18 of 43 Old 06-13-2010, 02:39 AM
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You know Bigbones, I wasn`t even responding to you but to the thread starter who asked the choice question. He already has chosen the BenQ Rereading his first post I see he did set forth certain PQ priorities.

In the middle of the thread, you asked my friend Joerod for his opinion. Somehow you then read my post as some sort of attack on YOUR question to Joerod and repeatedly defending the question as if I attacked it for stupidity or otherwise which I didn`t.

Now I see you are asking the same question as the thread starter but without setting forth any PQ priorities or viewing parameters. But at this point saying that you have owned a single chip DLP machine for years and that RBE has not been a problem for you and your family. You state you have loved the PQ of the BenQ except that it has always been too dark.

I would ask you to amplify what you mean by it has always been too dark. Do you mean that the picture is not bright enough for you? That is, the machine is not putting out enough ANSI lumens for your screen and viewing environment? To answer your question you really should tell us what size screen you have, what is the screen gain, what is your viewing environment, throw distance, and what would be the minimum brightness you would like. How many hours on your present projector, have you ever changed the bulb.

Before you start attacking me again, I am not a know it all and I am not asking you harassing questions. A good recommendation can not be made without knowing more facts. If all you want to know which one someone prefers regardless of screen size yada yada the basis for that choice will need to be clearly set forth for the answer to have any value.

I liked it in my viewing environment because it was . . . . even though it wasn`t so good in these aspects .. . . You get the idea.

Not knowing anymore but knowing the two projectors, I would chose the BenQ because I prefer its sharpness over the LG. I as a superior being (I am joshing you before you flip a lid) own a much better single chip DLP and personnally value what its strenghts are.

Sharpness among other things and devalue its weaknesses, low on off contrast which of course is quite different than ANSI contrast. I have never really liked LCD technology much prefering DLP or LCOS (SXRD or DiLA) machines. I think over the next few years we will see the abandonment of LCDs for projectors. LCD chip performance has reached its limits will LCOS chips haven`t and have less weaknesses.

Anyway. I would like to give you a better answer butI really could use whatever answers to my questions you can give me and once again please amplify your too dark comment. Thanks.

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post #19 of 43 Old 06-13-2010, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Personally, I would probably go with the LG because despite people saying "RBE isn't an issue for most", it can become an issue depending on what you are doing.



RBE has been a deal breaker for me in the past even though I the DLP picture is usually superior in other aspects to LCD (at least the ones I've seen).
Not saying RBE will be an issue for you, but given the other factors, the LG is probably the safer bet.

FWIW, for you, this is exactly what I think should be done. I'd never recommend a DLP to someone who has problems with RBE, however, I personally have never met anyone with RBE issues, nor has anyone in my HT (which has had 4 DLPs now) ever had an issue.

So as I said, IMO you shouldn't worry about RBE unless you know it's going to be an issue.

It's the same thing as motion blur on liquid crystal displays, there are a vocal group that have terrible issues seeing (and being bothered by) motion blur on LC displays. That doesn't mean you should prejudicially recommend against them just because someone "might" see it. With either issue, the right answer is that the buyer should find out for themselves in person, including buying from a dealer with a good return policy if necessary.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #20 of 43 Old 06-13-2010, 10:05 AM
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Mark. I am not trying to win an argument nor did I feel you were referring to me personally. Please read the comments in red, then put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't do this everyday. Keep in mind not everyone needs to drill down to the minutia for a satisfying answer. Some can make a decision based on high level questions and simple, high level answers. Sarcasm and cleverness serve just the opposite of the intent of this forum by turning people off. I can give you example after example of people that think this is an elitist hobby and are too intimidated to join for fear of looking stupid or feeling out of place. Why perpetuate that? Your last reply to me was beautiful, you asked specific questions looking for specific answers. Actually when I read it, I couldn't believe the same person wrote it that wrote the first post. Thanks for listening.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Whatever you choose, it will turn out to be the wrong choice and you will regret it. I am not trying to be snide. And you can blame it all on the ultimate projector God, Art. If only he would ultimately prefer one you could sleep once again, make your choice, and know you made the right one. If WE make a choice based on ownership of one or the other or a bias towards one technology or the other based historically on artifacts which like have been ameliorated with generation advancement, or based on individual viewing priorities such as sharpness vs black levels, yada yada, you no matter what you choose will ultimately feel you made the wrong choice. The solution here is to step up and buy something costing a little more that is clearly better. I bought a X instead you can tell all and I love it. As you fall asleep, you can whisper even Art loved it.

Hope you enjoyed this. Its a tough choice and really its up to you. If you could pick your top PQ priority, say color accuracy or sharpness etc, the answer between the two might be simple. Trying to do a weighted average betwen the two, weighted by the opinion of others among other weights, you are doomed.

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post #21 of 43 Old 06-14-2010, 05:43 PM
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So finally what is the conclusion. Do you see RBE, are you glad you purchase that unit instead of the LG?
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post #22 of 43 Old 06-14-2010, 06:18 PM
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Bigbones. Where are the answers to my questions? Not to be offensive, but any credit you give me for listening is gratuitous and completely undeserved. I hope you are not saying that giving me the answers I or others need to make an intelligent knowledgeable recommendation would somehow be low level answers to low level questions which you feel are needless minutia. Are you once again reverting to a position that all you want to know is which one does a person think is better regardless of the application. If you are, then I go back to my first post and say goodbye.

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post #23 of 43 Old 06-14-2010, 08:30 PM
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I am trying to be a gentleman but you just aren't letting me, so goodbye it is. I do not need an answer from you because I did not ask you a question. You jumped in uninvited. My question was to joerod. Perhaps you should read MY original post. Also, once again you start out with "not to be offensive" and are nothing but. Better luck next time finding a weakling you can condescend to, I'm not going to let you feed your ego at my expense. Please do us all a favor and do not reply to me again. If you feel like you must, send me a PM.
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Bigbones. Where are the answers to my questions? Not to be offensive, but any credit you give me for listening is gratuitous and completely undeserved. I hope you are not saying that giving me the answers I or others need to make an intelligent knowledgeable recommendation would somehow be low level answers to low level questions which you feel are needless minutia. Are you once again reverting to a position that all you want to know is which one does a person think is better regardless of the application. If you are, then I go back to my first post and say goodbye.

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post #24 of 43 Old 06-28-2010, 01:37 PM
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How entertaining it can be to read about 2 people arguing on a forum thread, when the poor guy who started the thread is being ignored lol. Play nice guys, play nice

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post #25 of 43 Old 06-28-2010, 02:41 PM
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The last post was two weeks ago. Not exactly a hot argument. Two more days and the statute of limitations would have kicked in. Now we have to start all over again. LOL.

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Originally Posted by chumpchange21 View Post

How entertaining it can be to read about 2 people arguing on a forum thread, when the poor guy who started the thread is being ignored lol. Play nice guys, play nice

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post #26 of 43 Old 06-29-2010, 06:39 AM
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Not picking sides here and don't know either person, but I personally thought Mark's original post was hilarious...

Never seen a rainbow after 5 years of dlp use... Never had a person in my theater ever see one either... I don't think it's as widespread a phenomenon as some would make it out to be. But I feel sorry for those who see it...
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post #27 of 43 Old 06-29-2010, 06:32 PM
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I guess there's two in every crowd.

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Originally Posted by Todd_zilla View Post

Not picking sides here and don't know either person, but I personally thought Mark's original post was hilarious...

Never seen a rainbow after 5 years of dlp use... Never had a person in my theater ever see one either... I don't think it's as widespread a phenomenon as some would make it out to be. But I feel sorry for those who see it...

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post #28 of 43 Old 06-30-2010, 06:02 AM
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I guess some of us just weren't born with a chip of insecurity on our shoulders... And many of us have the intellectual capacity to understand when we're being insulted, which apparently you didn't get... Mark's post was pointing out that the only important opinion is that of the buyer's... And that if you listen to the opinions of the crowd as a whole without parameters, then you will always feel as though you made a poor choice. He further went on to suggest that by providing priorities in what the buyer felt was important in projector performance might improve the value of the conversation and contribute something more meaningful... But it seems that flew right over the Morton, IL poster with 80 something posts...
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post #29 of 43 Old 06-30-2010, 07:02 AM
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Looks like I brought out your superiority complex #2. I'll refrain from my own opinion until I have 673 posts. Thank you for putting me in my place.

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Originally Posted by Todd_zilla View Post

I guess some of us just weren't born with a chip of insecurity on our shoulders... And many of us have the intellectual capacity to understand when we're being insulted, which apparently you didn't get... Mark's post was pointing out that the only important opinion is that of the buyer's... And that if you listen to the opinions of the crowd as a whole without parameters, then you will always feel as though you made a poor choice. He further went on to suggest that by providing priorities in what the buyer felt was important in projector performance might improve the value of the conversation and contribute something more meaningful... But it seems that flew right over the Morton, IL poster with 80 something posts...

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post #30 of 43 Old 06-30-2010, 11:14 AM
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Let's stick to projector comparisons folks. I'm trying to decide too. There are plenty of forums on AOL or dailykos to get your daily insult fix.
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