Sanyo PLV-Z3000 Vertical lines on image - Help? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 06-14-2010, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Dear AVS Forum users, I come to you a broken man. My projector set up has caused me endless sleepless nights and worry. So, if you have some time I'd like to tell you about my woes in what, I sadly feel, will be a pointless attempt to solve this highly irritating problem.

I currently own a Sanyo PLV-Z3000 projector bought new earlier on in the year. Previous to this I owned a Sanyo PLV Z700. Both of these projectors suffered the same problem. Namely, uniform faint vertical lines/bars down the entire image. I tried and tried to solve the problem with my Z700 even sending the unit to a Sanyo service centre, who assured me the unit was in perfect working order. It was returned but the problem remained. Eventually I had to give up and return the unit for a refund. I was beaten. I decided that lightening couldn't possible strike twice and upgrade to the Z3000. I was wrong.

Now, part of this tiresome problem has been the freakish discovery that when the projected image is shown on a completely smooth surface, such as a white piece of paper, the vertical lines do not appear. Only when the image is projected onto screen material do the vertical lines appear. I have tried four separate screens from three different manufacturers. - Projecta, Sapphire and Beamax. It could be that these manufacturers all use the same material
supplier, I don't know.


Vertical lines/bars on screen surface(upper part) and absent on the back of a note pad held in front of screen(lower part.)

When I contacted Sanyo directly they informed that as the image was clean, when displayed on a perfectly flat surface, the projector could not be at fault. Meaning the problem was with the screen I was using, all of them.

Exasperated, I took to the internet forums and asked owners of Z700 to look for these vertical lines on their set-ups and to tell me what screens they were using. None of the owners saw the problem and two owners had screens made by a manufacturer that I had used.

I then had to rule out environment as a cause. I did this. Oh man, did I do this. Cables, positioning and anything else I could think off were changed, moved and removed. Still the problem persists.


Vertical lines/bars on screen material

I know this is a long shot but I was hoping that someone here may have an idea that I have missed. If I cannot solve this problem then the unit will have to go and I'd rather not do that as I got an excellent deal.

Thank you.
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post #2 of 17 Old 06-14-2010, 09:09 AM
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Check out the Viewsonic Pro8100 thread...that projector has issues with banding as well....I have no idea if it's the same issue. For Vertical banding, it has been solved by shutting power to the projector after use. The issue of horizontal banding has not been solved, but I was able to to reduce it a little by using an isolation transformer.
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post #3 of 17 Old 06-14-2010, 09:59 AM
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Does the pattern change with zoom or rotation? So if you rotate the projector do the lines rotate with it or stay vertical and if you zoom the lens do the lines stay or zoom with it?
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post #4 of 17 Old 06-14-2010, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomBonge View Post

Does the pattern change with zoom or rotation? So if you rotate the projector do the lines rotate with it or stay vertical and if you zoom the lens do the lines stay or zoom with it?

Yes. When zooming the image to it's maximum size the bands become wider and wider till they appear to disappear. When zooming in so the image becomes its smallest the bands become thinner and thinner till they become too narrow to perceive. At the middle point between max and min zoom the bands disappear in a swirl and then reappear with the poles switched.


Quote:
Originally Posted by streetcredit View Post

Check out the Viewsonic Pro8100 thread...that projector has issues with banding as well....I have no idea if it's the same issue. For Vertical banding, it has been solved by shutting power to the projector after use. The issue of horizontal banding has not been solved, but I was able to to reduce it a little by using an isolation transformer.

Thanks. Is an isolation transformer the same as a mains power cleaner/conditioner?
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post #5 of 17 Old 06-15-2010, 01:05 AM
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The white paper held up to the screen and eliminating the problem is the key. What you have is a classic moire pattern caused by small uniform dots on the screen's surface interacting with the spacing of the projected image pixels. Most likely if you look very closely at the screen's surface in white light, you will see these slightly raised dots fairly clearly.

The only way to eliminate this problem is to zoom in or out until the pattern disappears completely and then buy that size screen. Or you need to buy a new screen [matte white] that does not have any gain and thus a smoother surface. Either will solve the problem completely. You can also slightly defocus the image and the moire pattern will disappear, but of course that is only a temporary solution while you get a new screen.

I had the same problem on the Z3000, and in my case, zooming up from a 96" to 110" screen worked.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=18371523
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post #6 of 17 Old 06-15-2010, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you orion, for replying and your advice. Sadly, moving up to a larger screen is not possible due to the space available for the screen. I have already dropped down to a 77" screen from a 92" screen as I felt the 92" screen was too big, anyway. Reducing the image till the moire disappears means having an image no bigger than a large plasma TV, which defeats the object of having a projector entirely.

I'm interested to find out more about these matte white screens, though. The screens I have are white with 1.0 gain, are these the type of screens that you are referring to? Also, may I ask how far your projector is from the screen you are using?

I fear I will have to replace this projector but then I have no idea what with. If this is endemic to LCD projectors paired with screens smaller than 106" then I really am stuck.
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post #7 of 17 Old 06-15-2010, 08:33 AM
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You should be able to get the screen size you want without any morie. I have a Z3000 with a SeymourAV center stage screen. It is an AT and has a grid of holes. This causes a morie interference pattern because the holes line up with the LCD lines (screen door) in some places and not in others. The uniform vertical and horizontal screen door lines and uniform grid of holes only line up at a specific zoom and the morie goes away. But if that zoom is not what you want you can also rotate the screen, at some point the pattern will go away the same way it does when you zoom. For this you need a much bigger screen and cut it after you find the right angle.

The screen you are using looks like a pull down screen, if the screen is not stretched tight you could also get morie. There might be a slight wave in your screen because the sides are not connected to anything. Try having two people lightly pull on either side to see if it flattens it out.

Before I had the AT screen I had black out cloth that I got at the fabric store for $20. Stretched very tight across a wood frame. I never had any problem with morie with it so you might want to try that as a last resort. Basically the equivalent of a large white sheet of paper which you know will work. The black out cloth is very smooth rubber like material on one side and fabric on the other.

If you decide to change the projector instead of finding a screen that works, you should look for one with a less defined pixel structure. I choose the z3000 becuase it has a very sharp pixel structure. I use it for video games and browsing the web and it is much easier to read with the sharp image. You will notice that you can see well defined square pixels with this projector. Most other projectors have a filter to reduce the LCD screen door, but that also softens the image a bit and makes it hard on the eyes to read small text. You really can't tell the difference when watching movies either way. The AE4000 has a filter and is supposed to be much more forgiving with morie. Also LCOS/D-ILA projectors have much less, if any, lines between the pixels.
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post #8 of 17 Old 06-15-2010, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Tom. I cannot accommodate a fixed screen so your helpful suggestions cannot be implemented.It looks like that's as far as I can take it.

I must say however, I believe it's a poor show on behalf of the manufacturers not to address this problem. Screen material manufacturers, especially. They should ensure that their material is compatible with any and all projectors. I don't expect any change will take place until the corporate world goes HD and then they insist that the screen material manufacturers take notice.
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post #9 of 17 Old 06-15-2010, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeddyRuck View Post

I'm interested to find out more about these matte white screens, though. The screens I have are white with 1.0 gain, are these the type of screens that you are referring to? Also, may I ask how far your projector is from the screen you are using?

I fear I will have to replace this projector but then I have no idea what with. If this is endemic to LCD projectors paired with screens smaller than 106" then I really am stuck.


LCD and DLP both have this problem on certain screens. I'm surprised that your screen is a gain of 1. If you look at its surface do you see small raised bumps all over the screen? [perhaps use a magnifying glass]

My z3000 is 12' from the screen.

What is the type and model number of the screens you have?
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post #10 of 17 Old 06-16-2010, 05:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion456 View Post

LCD and DLP both have this problem on certain screens. I'm surprised that your screen is a gain of 1. If you look at its surface do you see small raised bumps all over the screen? [perhaps use a magnifying glass]

My z3000 is 12' from the screen.

What is the type and model number of the screens you have?

Yes, I can clearly see the raised bumps on the screen surface and had often considered that a source for interference. My z3000 is also about 11-12ft from my screen. Maybe that is part of the sweet spot for interference?

This is my current model
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post #11 of 17 Old 06-16-2010, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeddyRuck View Post

Yes, I can clearly see the raised bumps on the screen surface and had often considered that a source for interference. My z3000 is also about 11-12ft from my screen. Maybe that is part of the sweet spot for interference?

This is my current model

As I recall, I tried moving the projector back to 18' and the moire was still visible when shown on my 96" screen. I do not recall if it was better or worse. I switched to a matte white screen [Draper Luma] and the moire disappeared. I will look today to see if it also has the raised bumps on the surface [just to be sure].

How high is your projector mounted?
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post #12 of 17 Old 06-16-2010, 10:01 AM
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I agree that looks like moire. Though rare with solid fabrics, it can certainly happen with some screens.
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post #13 of 17 Old 06-16-2010, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion456 View Post

As I recall, I tried moving the projector back to 18' and the moire was still visible when shown on my 96" screen. I do not recall if it was better or worse. I switched to a matte white screen [Draper Luma] and the moire disappeared. I will look today to see if it also has the raised bumps on the surface [just to be sure].

How high is your projector mounted?

About six and a half feet.

As I recall when researching this problem last year, I chatted with a supplier who informed me that Drapa Luma screens had a leathery surface as opposed to the plastic-y bumps of others. Unfortunately, I never had a chance to try a Drapa Luma and I believe the supplier I spoke to is no longer operating.
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post #14 of 17 Old 06-16-2010, 11:35 PM
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I have verified that the Draper Luma screen has a very smooth surface with no noticeable pattern even under 4x magnification. It produces no moire at any size image.

My Video Spectra 1.5 does have a very clear regular pattern that looks a lot like cross hatching. The VS 1.5 definitely produces moire below 106" diagonal on a 1080 projector.

If your screen shows a regular pattern on its surface, then that is the cause of moire when combined with a 1080 projector.

Draper Luma is available in the UK.

It must be the sharpness of the Z3000 that makes it more susceptible to moire.
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post #15 of 17 Old 09-07-2010, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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For reference:

I finally solved this problem by contacting Otto from Beamax screens in the Netherlands. He read this thread and sent me some fabric samples which all solved the problem. As far as I can tell the moire was caused by the interaction of the pixel structure with the screen structure/texture. Like laying two similar grids over each other.

Lesson: Get samples before purchase.

Finally, thank you to all you guys who offered very helpful advice.
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post #16 of 17 Old 04-29-2011, 07:42 PM
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I realize that this is a bit of an old thread, but I have a PLV-Z3000 and all of a sudden, the vertical lines that TeddyRuck described started appearing on my screen. I've never seen these before and my setup has not changed so I'm worried that the projector is going bad.

I've narrowed it down to the projector as the vertical lines appear on the "sanyo" splash screen without any source running through it. Any thoughts?
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post #17 of 17 Old 09-15-2012, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, as this is over a year since you posted I don't know if you'll see this but, it's very important that you project the image onto a completely smooth surface first, in order to rule out the screen as a source of the problem. A white board would be ideal as it's completely smooth.
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