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post #1 of 42 Old 07-21-2010, 04:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Here.

I'm just saying . . .

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post #2 of 42 Old 07-21-2010, 04:40 AM
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Here.

I'm just saying . . .

Looks like someone who posts here regularly had some pretty good info

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post #3 of 42 Old 07-21-2010, 04:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Looks like someone who posts here regularly had some pretty good info

Looks that way.

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post #4 of 42 Old 07-21-2010, 05:33 AM
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post #5 of 42 Old 07-21-2010, 07:21 AM
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i learned a few things about upcoming models but didn`t realize the rather basic information I got was under in effect a NDA. Obviously, JVC is holding this info close to its vest pending line introduction in say september when various shows take place. I shouldn`t have said anything. I think it really is no big deal that JVC doesn`t want to have the deleted items and infomation in the public domain until them. No disrespect should be given them or AVS for honoring their wishes. Obviously, figuring out upcoming model designations is no big deal. The details of those models and prices is a big deal and premature knowledge of them could give competitors an advantage that belongs to JVC.

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post #6 of 42 Old 07-21-2010, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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The last few generations the prices and specs changed several times. I think the last gen prices and specs even changed after the products were announced.

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post #7 of 42 Old 07-21-2010, 08:39 AM
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I read a mini-review of the upcoming Sony WV-90 on a Swedish site and there was enough there to make me very surprised that he was not under a NDA.

Stuff will leak out every year for different makes and brands. In regards to model numbers I would prefer if some maker stuck to one set of numbers with a predictable way of telling what came next. Not sure how JVC went from RS2 to RS20 to RS25 - maybe some logic behind there
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post #8 of 42 Old 07-21-2010, 09:19 AM
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I asked JVC Japan about these links and the person replied:

プロジェクターを買ってはいけない。
JVCはベストである。
私達は投射TVのリーダーである。
私達は4kで停止しない。
私達は3Dで停止しない。
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post #9 of 42 Old 07-21-2010, 09:47 AM
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post #10 of 42 Old 07-21-2010, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mhdiab View Post

I read a mini-review of the upcoming Sony WV-90 on a Swedish site and there was enough there to make me very surprised that he was not under a NDA.

Such as......
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post #11 of 42 Old 07-21-2010, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post

Such as......

Such as the option to switch between 240hz and 120hz for 3D content -- it might be common knowledge I don't know

I posted the translation in the 3D display units - maybe I should have put it in this part of the forum. I did "improve" some on the translation as Google did a horrible job but it is far from perfect

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1261151
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post #12 of 42 Old 07-21-2010, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhdiab View Post

Such as the option to switch between 240hz and 120hz for 3D content -- it might be common knowledge I don't know

I posted the translation in the 3D display units - maybe I should have put it in this part of the forum. I did "improve" some on the translation as Google did a horrible job but it is far from perfect

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1261151

I'm Swedish so I did a "manual" translation that hopefully will be a bit easier on the eyes...

I can add that I know the person who wrote it and he's a very knowledgeable projector guy who works with sales, installation and ISF calibration of predominantly home cinema projection systems.


"Just came back from an awesome afternoon with Sonys new 3D-projector!

The Japansese have so far built two pre-samples that they tour around the world and we in Sweden are clearly prioritized. The official presentation is not planned until IFA this fall, which gives an indication on how unique this opportunity is.

The pre-sample is built upon the VW85, but in order to handle the new demand on faster refresh rates for displaying 3D pictures it sports brand new SXRD panels fresh from Sonys lab. Together with the bravia engine the signal is driven in 240 Hz for an as flicker free picture as possible. This machine is built on active shutter glasses (just like the TV's) where you sync on a frequency between the image signal and the spectacles. The highest recording frequency we use is 60 Hz which makes 120 Hz (2x60Hz) a minimum to be able to show 3D with this kind of material. The drawback with 120 Hz is that it is difficult for the glasses to shift without revealing trailing artifacts from the previous image. This is eliminated with 240 Hz technology and the idea is that you should get less flickering and judder during fast motion. The drawback is that you loose more light. The Sony technician I spoke to was talking about the option available to the consumer to go into the menu and choose 120 Hz (more light for material with little motion) or 240 Hz (less judder for fast moving material like sports). This is completely unique for Sony as of today and therefore worth a few extra lines to point out. If they only will get is as good in reality as in theory it will be awesome!

Besides the new panels they have also (as expected) boosted the brightness, which is necessary to compensate for the light loss you get with the glasses. In 2D, the power of this machine is insane! Without any measurements I would estimate we had about 30-40 fL on a Studiotek 130 G3. Respect! We also tested a few different screens; but ST 130 was completely superior in all aspects. But then we ran in a completely dark room with black walls, ceiling and floor. Well, there was power at least, and my impression was that it was much brighter than the VW85. How much the black level was suffering was hard to say without a point of reference, but to me it was nothing I noticed. On the contrary, my impression was that it had a higher contrast than its predecessor.

Enough about the projector. There will for sure be an opportunity to go through in more detail in it’s own thread when we get a green light to make that info official. In this thread we continue with the 3D.

The 3D picture with active glasses is (as I have said before) different compared to what you get at the cinema with passive glasses. The effects are much greater and the depth more pronounced with active. It looked just like the Panasonic screen but insanely more impressive. The difference in impact watching 3D this way was is as big compared to regular projection as is between watching a movie on a 100’ screen compared to a 42’ TV. This is the way to experience it! The demo itself was very convincing and I have never seen 3D any better!

Now to perhaps the most interesting of all…
The material we watched was really good with very little animated clips and gimmicky effects. Instead, we watched “ordinary soccer” (Barca of course ) and a little American football mixed with nature films. In other words, exactly the type of content you will have access to and watch when the content will increase with rising demand. Of course they had a few gaming demo's that were animated, but instead of frowning I sat there with a silly expression when MotorStorm rocked the screen and when the car hovered in mid air during the big jumps, you could hear the oohs and aahs from us in the audience. There’s no doubt that the gaming industry will drive this 3D boom, but if we can get “normal material” in the form of sport, nature films and documentaries in 3D, as the demo material indicated, together with all the films that are shown in 3D today, I have no doubt that it will be a roaring success.

The Sony simply rocked. But the coolest thing was that it looked really, really good on ordinary 2D Transformers 2. Compared to that the 3D of course looked a bit dark and dull. But the 3D picture doesn’t get any worse just because the 2D was amongst the best I have ever seen.

But we will take the projector in the coming projector thread as said previously…"
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post #13 of 42 Old 07-21-2010, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhdiab View Post

Such as the option to switch between 240hz and 120hz for 3D content -- it might be common knowledge I don't know

I posted the translation in the 3D display units - maybe I should have put it in this part of the forum. I did "improve" some on the translation as Google did a horrible job but it is far from perfect

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1261151

that was a great post! This just flies in the face of all the luddites and what they have been saying: The Sony 3D projector had IMPROVED 2D performance as well! New panel technology thanks in part to the 3D push! I love the fact that it is 240Hz (5 times flash). Excellent! Any hints to a price?
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post #14 of 42 Old 07-21-2010, 04:08 PM
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looks like all those links turn out empty as of now. too bad.

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post #15 of 42 Old 07-21-2010, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

I asked JVC Japan about these links and the person replied:

プロジェクターを買ってはいけない。
JVCはベストである。
私達は投射TVのリーダーである。
私達は4kで停止しない。
私達は3Dで停止しない。

Man...that's spritz beer through your nose funny!

See ya. Dave

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post #16 of 42 Old 07-21-2010, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post

that was a great post! This just flies in the face of all the luddites and what they have been saying: The Sony 3D projector had IMPROVED 2D performance as well! New panel technology thanks in part to the 3D push! I love the fact that it is 240Hz (5 times flash). Excellent! Any hints to a price?

Just as I suspected... a top-performing 3D projector makes an even better performing 2D projector.

can't wait to see one of these in action!

dave

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post #17 of 42 Old 07-21-2010, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

I asked JVC Japan about these links and the person replied:

プロジェクターを買ってはいけない。
JVCはベストである。
私達は投射TVのリーダーである。
私達は4kで停止しない。
私達は3Dで停止しない。

Hilarious!
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post #18 of 42 Old 07-22-2010, 04:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow. You guys draw lots of conclusions from one guy's mere observations of a prototype projector. I hope that these observations are validated through a real review but come on . . . He seems to concede that CR suffers, even if he claims it is not noticable to him. So, isn't it a bit early to be jumping up and down and high fiving?

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post #19 of 42 Old 07-22-2010, 06:01 AM
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Lawguy;18941988]Wow. You guys draw lots of conclusions from one guy's mere observations of a prototype projector. I hope that these observations are validated through a real review but come on . . .

The production model will be even better!

Quote:


He seems to concede that CR suffers, even if he claims it is not noticable to him.

What post were you reading? What he actually said was: "On the contrary, my impression was that it had a higher contrast than its predecessor."


Quote:


So, isn't it a bit early to be jumping up and down and high fiving?

No, in fact it's too early for pessimism and skepticism based on nothing but gut feeling. Fact is the new projector has newer faster SXRD panels, much higher brightness, 240Hz interpolation (I would use it for sports), and apparently higher contrast as well. All improvements to 2D performance. None of these improvements would have been pushed if it were not for 3D. High five David! Lets go Lawguy it's not too late to get on the bandwagon. lol
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post #20 of 42 Old 07-22-2010, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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If you are the kind of person who jumps to all of thease kinds of premature conclusions, you must always be disappointed. From your posts on other things you seem to go through this glass is half full/half empty thing quite a bit. It must be a fun ride.

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post #21 of 42 Old 07-22-2010, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Wow. You guys draw lots of conclusions from one guy's mere observations of a prototype projector. I hope that these observations are validated through a real review but come on . . . He seems to concede that CR suffers, even if he claims it is not noticable to him. So, isn't it a bit early to be jumping up and down and high fiving?

Never said that this first impression was the final word. But given that prototypes almost always under-perform in comparison to final release product, and given the dark-cloud sky-is-falling posts by some on this forum about how adding 3D capability will somehow spell the end of quality 2D performance, at the very least, this first impression of the 3D Sony SXRD is a very good sign of things to come.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #22 of 42 Old 07-22-2010, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

Never said that this first impression was the final word. But given that prototypes almost always under-perform in comparison to final release product, and given the dark-cloud sky-is-falling posts by some on this forum about how adding 3D capability will somehow spell the end of quality 2D performance, at the very least, this first impression of the 3D Sony SXRD is a very good sign of things to come.

I understand what you are saying. But, I don't think that there has been a sky-is-falling mentality. There is a concern that 2D quality will be sacrificed in some ways for 3D quality. There is another concern that 3D development costs are taking resources away from 2D development. Time will tell if these concerns are justified.

Faster panels, in and of themselves, don't interest me much. Existing 120Hz LCOS panels are up to the job, even if you are a fan of frame interpolation, which I am not. Other kinds of panel improvements do interest me.

Time will tell.

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post #23 of 42 Old 07-22-2010, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post

No, in fact it's too early for pessimism and skepticism based on nothing but gut feeling. Fact is the new projector has newer faster SXRD panels, much higher brightness, 240Hz interpolation (I would use it for sports), and apparently higher contrast as well. All improvements to 2D performance. None of these improvements would have been pushed if it were not for 3D. High five David! Lets go Lawguy it's not too late to get on the bandwagon. lol

exactly.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #24 of 42 Old 07-22-2010, 07:06 AM
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I understand what you are saying. But, I don't think that there has been a sky-is-falling mentality. There is a concern that 2D quality will be sacrificed in some ways for 3D quality. There is another concern that 3D development costs are taking resources away from 2D development. Time will tell if these concerns are justified.

I think moreso it's the idea that instead of improving 2D performance, resources and design choices will be devoted to making 3D acceptable. There are a lot of us with very, very little interest in 3D, but have been holding out for some more improvements in 2D. It's looking like this isn't the year for that.

A couple of things do seem to be confirmed though, these 3D machines are making brightness a priority, 30-40ftL would be probably 2-4x brighter than a VW85. I'm not sure what to make of the contrast comment: "How much the black level was suffering was hard to say without a point of reference, but to me it was nothing I noticed. On the contrary, my impression was that it had a higher contrast than its predecessor.
" The comment contradicts itself.

It will be interesting to see for sure, but it looks like there just won't be anything interesting this year. This review doesn't really change my pessimism about the situation, one "concern" (brightness focus) was confirmed, another remains a question (how much contrast is sacrificed). I'm really wanting a high performance LED machine, but the Vango is looking to be the only thing even close to reasonably priced.

It's kind of sad I'm not interested in anything coming out this year (other than the Vango) given my Planar 8150 is a two (or is it three now) model-year-old machine.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #25 of 42 Old 07-22-2010, 07:21 AM
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Lawguy. I am under attack here. The sky is falling, the sky is falling. You do get it. Yep David, this is what I get for agreeing with you in several recent threads. Can you honestly say that I said or even thought that 3D would be the end of quality 2D performance? I know you are far too intelligent to honestly think that. I expected the posts from Mike and i will not say anymore about him. Res Ipsa Loguitur.

It is great that Sony is improving its SXRD chip. Like the belief by some women that size matters, imaging chip size does matter, bigger is indeed better for a whole variety of reasons.

But I will reiterate. Quality 3D projection requires lots of light. it is dangerous to prioritize characteristics needed for a genuine accross the board assessment of PQ but I think with respect to 3D minimizing cross and providing maximum light are two of the top priorities. I think many would agree that these are not the top priorities for top quality 2D reproduction.

Now there are many expensive quality 2D machines where providing lots of lumens was an important design consideration. Compromises were made in on off CR performance in order to get this. But to the credit of these rather wonderful machines, they still provide on offs better than commercial theaters. Several of these machines have been modified to provide excellant 3D performance as well.

But. When we start off with much less bright but very good performing 2D machines, the need to boost light output for 3D is paramount. It is absolutely essential to boost output to at least 1500 lumens and this is really nowhere near enough. This can be done but not without impacting 2D on off. There indeed has been a rush to bring consumer level 3D machines to market. We will see many machines in the $12K or less MSRP category at Cedia this year.

These machines will be very bright with respect to 2D performance. If a machine is bright and sharp, people will say wow. But this really says little about whether overall these machines have better than last year`s 2D performance. It is very unlikely that such performace will be even as good but the increased brightness will blind many to this fact. Just like playing an inferior loudspeaker louder than a much better speaker.

Stanger gets it. Lawguy gets it. I am repeatedly impressed with the analytical ability his posts demonstrate.

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post #26 of 42 Old 07-22-2010, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Stanger gets it. Lawguy gets it. I am repeatedly impressed with the analytical ability his posts demonstrate.

That makes one!

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post #27 of 42 Old 07-22-2010, 08:13 AM
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"How much the black level was suffering was hard to say without a point of reference, but to me it was nothing I noticed. On the contrary, my impression was that it had a higher contrast than its predecessor.
" The comment contradicts itself.

Not at all. Black level and on/off CR are only indirectly related. As you already noted, the projector is 2-4 times brighter than its predecessor. So it could have far better on/off CR yet have a higher black level. If black level is an issue, there are ways for the general consumer to improve black levels, but not on/off CR.

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post #28 of 42 Old 07-22-2010, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

I asked JVC Japan about these links and the person replied:

プロジェクターを買ってはいけない。
JVCはベストである。
私達は投射TVのリーダーである。
私達は4kで停止しない。
私達は3Dで停止しない。

Wow and you took that without a fight? I would be on the phone with the president of the company if a representative talked to me that way.
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post #29 of 42 Old 07-22-2010, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Lawguy. I am under attack here. The sky is falling, the sky is falling. You do get it. Yep David, this is what I get for agreeing with you in several recent threads. Can you honestly say that I said or even thought that 3D would be the end of quality 2D performance? I know you are far too intelligent to honestly think that. I expected the posts from Mike and i will not say anymore about him. Res Ipsa Loguitur.

It is great that Sony is improving its SXRD chip. Like the belief by some women that size matters, imaging chip size does matter, bigger is indeed better for a whole variety of reasons.

But I will reiterate. Quality 3D projection requires lots of light. it is dangerous to prioritize characteristics needed for a genuine accross the board assessment of PQ but I think with respect to 3D minimizing cross and providing maximum light are two of the top priorities. I think many would agree that these are not the top priorities for top quality 2D reproduction.

Now there are many expensive quality 2D machines where providing lots of lumens was an important design consideration. Compromises were made in on off CR performance in order to get this. But to the credit of these rather wonderful machines, they still provide on offs better than commercial theaters. Several of these machines have been modified to provide excellant 3D performance as well.

But. When we start off with much less bright but very good performing 2D machines, the need to boost light output for 3D is paramount. It is absolutely essential to boost output to at least 1500 lumens and this is really nowhere near enough. This can be done but not without impacting 2D on off. There indeed has been a rush to bring consumer level 3D machines to market. We will see many machines in the $12K or less MSRP category at Cedia this year.

These machines will be very bright with respect to 2D performance. If a machine is bright and sharp, people will say wow. But this really says little about whether overall these machines have better than last year`s 2D performance. It is very unlikely that such performace will be even as good but the increased brightness will blind many to this fact. Just like playing an inferior loudspeaker louder than a much better speaker.

Stanger gets it. Lawguy gets it. I am repeatedly impressed with the analytical ability his posts demonstrate.

Mark and others,

sorry for my "sky is falling" phrase which is admittedly a mis-characterization of many of the rational, yet skeptical-about-3D/2D performance issues arguments that have been made. I don't mean to devalue or make sound irrlevant good posts and good points that have raised reasonable concerns.

At the same time, that doesn't mean that this first-hand account isn't a cause for a little more optimism. Rather than mere conjecture, we've actually got a real-world impression of an actual device.

and per his impressions (assuming that they bear out to be true when production units are ready), a higher brightness *AND* higher-contrast projector is better for 2D as well. If absolute black level suffers, a simple ND filter would correct for that while keeping the advantages of the higher contrast.

I'm certain that not all 3D machines will be better than the best 2D machines. But as long as higher brightess *and* higher contrast are part of the deal, along with faster response time on panels, I fail to see how 2D performance will be required to suffer. Rather, it stands to gain.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #30 of 42 Old 07-22-2010, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

Not at all. Black level and on/off CR are only indirectly related. As you already noted, the projector is 2-4 times brighter than its predecessor. So it could have far better on/off CR yet have a higher black level. If black level is an issue, there are ways for the general consumer to improve black levels, but not on/off CR.

You would think that should go with out saying to people in a forum such as this. A couple of people prove that wrong unfortunately. You CAN make a brighter projector with out sacrificing contrast.
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