CEDIA Projector *impressions* (not marketing lit or specs lists) - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 172 Old 09-23-2010, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey all,

some great threads about particular manufacturers and photos, but how about a thread with people's *actual impressions* of the projectors in action? For instance, what does the picture from these new Epson LCOS machines look like? How does the 3D performance of Sony ES compare to the various JVCs? We want details not just "I thought the JVC was a little better". Details! And please no reciting of marketing-dribble from the manufacturers... I'm quite sure that Epson thinks that their new LCOS machines are better than anything else out there, but what I want to know is what to AVS members think who've actually seen them in action?

Were any products actually working and in action or were they just objects on display?

thanks!

dave

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post #2 of 172 Old 09-23-2010, 07:57 PM
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I have not seen the new JVC yet, but the Epson 31000 was a prototype with lip sync problems and motion flaws. It had a good picture, but the blacks did not look as good as my JVC. Not a unit I would buy at this time.

I liked the picture from new Sony VPL-VW90ES better than the Epson LCoS. The motion looked very good and the blacks were excellent. Light output looked a little weak considering the screen size.

Wolf Cinema has a new single chip DLP that reduces color wheel color breakup. It looked very promising at the $10k price point. Their high dollar unit had some very fancy video tiling capabilities.

Sony said the non-Sony SXRD projectors are using older technology.

The LG SXRD projector was not a high dollar unit, but the 3D demo was pretty good compared to most I have seen so far.

Most of the 3d demonstrations are plagued by screen artifacts from using high gain screens as well.
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post #3 of 172 Old 09-23-2010, 08:07 PM
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Im wondering why there aren't more impressions, but I guess it's the first day and most people are tired and don't feel like posting after traveling and not getting enough sleep. Tomorrow you slackers better give us detailed impressions and tell us which projector we need to buy this fall

PLEASE review the 3D capabilities of the new JVC projectors. Is there alot of ghosting (crosstalk) Is the picture bright enough (subjective, but please), has JVC fixed their motion issues from last years models, and finally give us a comparison between all 3D projectors from the show.
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post #4 of 172 Old 09-23-2010, 08:08 PM
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Jeff have you seen any new LED projectors for under $10k?

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post #5 of 172 Old 09-23-2010, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisx510 View Post

Jeff have you seen any new LED projectors for under $10k?

I saw the Epson 9700UB. It is a decent machine for its price point, but no comparison to any LCoS machine. Epson said it output 400 lumens at D65.

I thought you said LCD. I saw no LED projectors at this point. Wolf had one, but it was not on and I am sure over $10k. It should be on tomorrow.
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post #6 of 172 Old 09-23-2010, 08:45 PM
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I'm with you on that. I would love to see if anyone is willing to step up with a price concious LED driven DLP/LCoS/LCD projector finally.

I saw the Samsung F10M at Infocomm and it was next to a 2,600 lumen projector and looked just a hair less bright despite the rating of only 1,000 lumens.

I would love to see that $1,300 projector dropped into a slightly quieter chassis with a better lens system and a 720p/1080p chip at $2,000-$3,000 and 700 or so real lumens on screen from LED.

I think that if Samsung can deliver 1,000 lumens for business, then the main reason we don't see it for home theater is because they know that lamps are the bread and butter for the manufacturers. They just aren't ready to give it up yet. As soon as we see it, I think people will flock to it!

I wish we would see a 1080p version of a HD66 or something similar with 3D capabilities at a lower (cheap?) price.

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post #7 of 172 Old 09-23-2010, 09:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

Hey all,

some great threads about particular manufacturers and photos, but how about a thread with people's *actual impressions* of the projectors in action? For instance, what does the picture from these new Epson LCOS machines look like? How does the 3D performance of Sony ES compare to the various JVCs? We want details not just "I thought the JVC was a little better". Details! And please no reciting of marketing-dribble from the manufacturers... I'm quite sure that Epson thinks that their new LCOS machines are better than anything else out there, but what I want to know is what to AVS members think who've actually seen them in action?

Were any products actually working and in action or were they just objects on display?

thanks!

dave

Awesome Thread Dave think you read my mind....
Thanks.........................
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post #8 of 172 Old 09-23-2010, 09:37 PM
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Thanks, personnally i'am waiting for Home Reviews or Web reviews. I've been at enought AV shows to know that projectors always look bad at those. It's so random. Mostly they aren't calibrated and not in an actual house. Last year, i was at one in montreal, they had the AE4000 in and it was horrible. My friend have one and his setup looked 10x better..

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post #9 of 172 Old 09-23-2010, 09:47 PM
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I am at Cedia and have seen the new "reflective" Epson, the new JVC 3D, the LG 3D projector, the new Sony 3D model and others including an LED lit DLP unit.

By far and away the huge, dual LCOS projector LG for $15K(?) produced the largest size, better, brighter most realistic 3D image. There is no competition to it. It is in a class by itself.

Sony has a beautiful demo room but the 3D image of their new 3D model is chock full of ghosting and the 3D image with shutter glasses on is dim. It is rated at 1000 lumens which might be fine for 2D but not 3D. This leaves JVC and Epson to discuss.

The new JVC is a nice unit and has very good picture detail and 3D quality. The three new 3D units from JVC are all rated at 1300 lumens. The new reflective (they are not calling it LCOS) Epson unit has a very rich and deep color image. It puts out 1200 lumens. It think in 2D it may have richer and deeper color than the new JVC's but they are close. The two new Epson's will sell for $4K to $7K. The new 3D JVC's will sell for $5K to $12K. Since JVC has 3D now (shipping next month or so) and Epson won't have 3D till January or later then the nod has to go to JVC.

As much as I would love to put Sony in the mix, its 3D performance was the worse of those I have mentioned and perhaps even the worse I have seen here at Cedia. I cannot express after the buildup about Sony's new projector how disappointing it was to see it under what was ideal demo conditions.

The LG 3D projector with its dual internal LCOS projectors is huge but man does it perform. The issue I have with it is the company itself. LG does not have a good dealer/distribution plan in place for their projectors and they do not seem to know how to get these to market with a good dealer network to support them. They claim to be trying to work this out. If I had the money to burn I would not hesitate to buy the LG 3D projector but I cannot suggest anyone purchase it till they get a better dealer and support network in place.

Thus in summary JVC is the one to buy today if you want the best 3D picture with shutter glasses but with a projector that uses the cheap non-shutter polaroid type glasses then LG puts the best image on the screen.

BTW the DLP/LED projector had a nice image but it is too dim to be a serious contender in todays projector market unless you can be happy with a six foot image. Most demos I saw were on seven to ten foot screens. There were commercial projectors showing on much larger screens but that is not what most of you and I are interested in for now anyway. ; )
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post #10 of 172 Old 09-23-2010, 09:54 PM
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nice write up Icon Master. I seriously doubt the 2D performance of the LG could match that of the JVC's though.
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post #11 of 172 Old 09-23-2010, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

...has JVC fixed their motion issues from last years models...

[whisper]Yes, can someone please tell us about FI on 24p content?[/whisper]
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post #12 of 172 Old 09-23-2010, 11:32 PM
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Did you get to see the Mitsubishi Diamond 3D projector?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon Master View Post

I am at Cedia and have seen the new "reflective" Epson, the new JVC 3D, the LG 3D projector, the new Sony 3D model and others including an LED lit DLP unit.

By far and away the huge, dual LCOS projector LG for $15K(?) produced the largest size, better, brighter most realistic 3D image. There is no competition to it. It is in a class by itself.

Sony has a beautiful demo room but the 3D image of their new 3D model is chock full of ghosting and the 3D image with shutter glasses on is dim. It is rated at 1000 lumens which might be fine for 2D but not 3D. This leaves JVC and Epson to discuss.

The new JVC is a nice unit and has very good picture detail and 3D quality. The three new 3D units from JVC are all rated at 1300 lumens. The new reflective (they are not calling it LCOS) Epson unit has a very rich and deep color image. It puts out 1200 lumens. It think in 2D it may have richer and deeper color than the new JVC's but they are close. The two new Epson's will sell for $4K to $7K. The new 3D JVC's will sell for $5K to $12K. Since JVC has 3D now (shipping next month or so) and Epson won't have 3D till January or later then the nod has to go to JVC.

As much as I would love to put Sony in the mix, its 3D performance was the worse of those I have mentioned and perhaps even the worse I have seen here at Cedia. I cannot express after the buildup about Sony's new projector how disappointing it was to see it under what was ideal demo conditions.

The LG 3D projector with its dual internal LCOS projectors is huge but man does it perform. The issue I have with it is the company itself. LG does not have a good dealer/distribution plan in place for their projectors and they do not seem to know how to get these to market with a good dealer network to support them. They claim to be trying to work this out. If I had the money to burn I would not hesitate to buy the LG 3D projector but I cannot suggest anyone purchase it till they get a better dealer and support network in place.

Thus in summary JVC is the one to buy today if you want the best 3D picture with shutter glasses but with a projector that uses the cheap non-shutter polaroid type glasses then LG puts the best image on the screen.

BTW the DLP/LED projector had a nice image but it is too dim to be a serious contender in todays projector market unless you can be happy with a six foot image. Most demos I saw were on seven to ten foot screens. There were commercial projectors showing on much larger screens but that is not what most of you and I are interested in for now anyway. ; )

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post #13 of 172 Old 09-24-2010, 07:36 AM
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You must use a Silver screen with the LG.
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post #14 of 172 Old 09-24-2010, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon Master View Post

I am at Cedia and have seen the new "reflective" Epson, the new JVC 3D, the LG 3D projector, the new Sony 3D model and others including an LED lit DLP unit.

By far and away the huge, dual LCOS projector LG for $15K(?) produced the largest size, better, brighter most realistic 3D image. There is no competition to it. It is in a class by itself.

Sony has a beautiful demo room but the 3D image of their new 3D model is chock full of ghosting and the 3D image with shutter glasses on is dim. It is rated at 1000 lumens which might be fine for 2D but not 3D. This leaves JVC and Epson to discuss.

The new JVC is a nice unit and has very good picture detail and 3D quality. The three new 3D units from JVC are all rated at 1300 lumens. The new reflective (they are not calling it LCOS) Epson unit has a very rich and deep color image. It puts out 1200 lumens. It think in 2D it may have richer and deeper color than the new JVC's but they are close. The two new Epson's will sell for $4K to $7K. The new 3D JVC's will sell for $5K to $12K. Since JVC has 3D now (shipping next month or so) and Epson won't have 3D till January or later then the nod has to go to JVC.

As much as I would love to put Sony in the mix, its 3D performance was the worse of those I have mentioned and perhaps even the worse I have seen here at Cedia. I cannot express after the buildup about Sony's new projector how disappointing it was to see it under what was ideal demo conditions.

The LG 3D projector with its dual internal LCOS projectors is huge but man does it perform. The issue I have with it is the company itself. LG does not have a good dealer/distribution plan in place for their projectors and they do not seem to know how to get these to market with a good dealer network to support them. They claim to be trying to work this out. If I had the money to burn I would not hesitate to buy the LG 3D projector but I cannot suggest anyone purchase it till they get a better dealer and support network in place.

Thus in summary JVC is the one to buy today if you want the best 3D picture with shutter glasses but with a projector that uses the cheap non-shutter polaroid type glasses then LG puts the best image on the screen.

BTW the DLP/LED projector had a nice image but it is too dim to be a serious contender in todays projector market unless you can be happy with a six foot image. Most demos I saw were on seven to ten foot screens. There were commercial projectors showing on much larger screens but that is not what most of you and I are interested in for now anyway. ; )

Thank you !

Could you tell us more about the level of crosstalk/ghosting from the jvc ?
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post #15 of 172 Old 09-24-2010, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

You must use a Silver screen with the LG.

and how much cost a decent SS?
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post #16 of 172 Old 09-24-2010, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

You must use a Silver screen with the LG.

Exactly, and a good portion of theater builders here choose to go with 1.3 gain AT screens, so I personally will never consider passive technology even though the thought of having 8 x 3D glasses for under $20 is truly tempting. The only way I would consider if there is a good silver AT screen, I know the material exists commercially because all theaters with 3D use AT screens to pass LCR audio. Plus a high gain screen would help with the brightness issues, but again it has to be AT.
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post #17 of 172 Old 09-24-2010, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

and how much cost a decent SS?

Regardless of manufacture size will have impact on cost. A basic 9 foot wide silver screen may cost around $1200. Silver is not an easy process so the extra manufacturing complications and precautions adds to its cost.
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post #18 of 172 Old 09-24-2010, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon Master View Post

I am at Cedia and have seen the new "reflective" Epson, the new JVC 3D, the LG 3D projector, the new Sony 3D model and others including an LED lit DLP unit.

By far and away the huge, dual LCOS projector LG for $15K(?) produced the largest size, better, brighter most realistic 3D image. There is no competition to it. It is in a class by itself.

Sony has a beautiful demo room but the 3D image of their new 3D model is chock full of ghosting and the 3D image with shutter glasses on is dim. It is rated at 1000 lumens which might be fine for 2D but not 3D. This leaves JVC and Epson to discuss.

The new JVC is a nice unit and has very good picture detail and 3D quality. The three new 3D units from JVC are all rated at 1300 lumens. The new reflective (they are not calling it LCOS) Epson unit has a very rich and deep color image. It puts out 1200 lumens. It think in 2D it may have richer and deeper color than the new JVC's but they are close. The two new Epson's will sell for $4K to $7K. The new 3D JVC's will sell for $5K to $12K. Since JVC has 3D now (shipping next month or so) and Epson won't have 3D till January or later then the nod has to go to JVC.

As much as I would love to put Sony in the mix, its 3D performance was the worse of those I have mentioned and perhaps even the worse I have seen here at Cedia. I cannot express after the buildup about Sony's new projector how disappointing it was to see it under what was ideal demo conditions.

The LG 3D projector with its dual internal LCOS projectors is huge but man does it perform. The issue I have with it is the company itself. LG does not have a good dealer/distribution plan in place for their projectors and they do not seem to know how to get these to market with a good dealer network to support them. They claim to be trying to work this out. If I had the money to burn I would not hesitate to buy the LG 3D projector but I cannot suggest anyone purchase it till they get a better dealer and support network in place.

Thus in summary JVC is the one to buy today if you want the best 3D picture with shutter glasses but with a projector that uses the cheap non-shutter polaroid type glasses then LG puts the best image on the screen.

BTW the DLP/LED projector had a nice image but it is too dim to be a serious contender in todays projector market unless you can be happy with a six foot image. Most demos I saw were on seven to ten foot screens. There were commercial projectors showing on much larger screens but that is not what most of you and I are interested in for now anyway. ; )

Which led/dlp projector did you saw?

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post #19 of 172 Old 09-24-2010, 10:29 AM
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I have only seen the JVCs so far. I am not a fan of 3d, but the JVCs looked pretty good. There was still some noticeable flicker and a little ghosting, but I was impressed. Also, it was brighter than I thought it would be in 3d. Jason posted his comments in the other thread. The 4k looked really good. I think they must have a better VP this year.

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post #20 of 172 Old 09-24-2010, 10:46 AM
 
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Where are the reviews of the Mits 3D Diamond?...Looks like a nice projector has 1200 lumens...Someone who has seen this please comment...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAWXAPWkbLo < CEDIA booth
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post #21 of 172 Old 09-24-2010, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Regardless of manufacture size will have impact on cost. A basic 9 foot wide silver screen may cost around $1200. Silver is not an easy process so the extra manufacturing complications and precautions adds to its cost.

Folks should realize that there are also other screen alternatives to "silver" that keep polarized light for 3D, but they do generally cost more than screens that don't preserve polarized light. However, some of the alternatives to silver do a better job with 2D content by avoiding hot-spotting etc.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #22 of 172 Old 09-24-2010, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Wolf Cinema has a new single chip DLP that reduces color wheel color breakup.

Any details on how they do it? Faster color wheel? Any other details on this particular unit, like single/dual lamp, on/off CR or brightness?

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post #23 of 172 Old 09-24-2010, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan View Post


Any details on how they do it? Faster color wheel? Any other details on this particular unit, like single/dual lamp, on/off CR or brightness?

They did not say, but it seemed to work. Looked good, but not real bright at this point.
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post #24 of 172 Old 09-24-2010, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post


They did not say, but it seemed to work. Looked good, but not real bright at this point.

For 3D projection the best I saw were Digital Projection, Sim2, LG and Sharp. I found all the others too artifacted for me to find tolerable. That list is also in order of price and quality. These demos are a function of setup so some of the others could be fine in a different situation.

The other issue with 3D is if you tinker with the screen you are very likely to degrade 2D. One manufacturer discussed using two screens. This is what I would consider in my theater.
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post #25 of 172 Old 09-24-2010, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogone View Post

Where are the reviews of the Mits 3D Diamond?...Looks like a nice projector has 1200 lumens...Someone who has seen this please comment...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAWXAPWkbLo < CEDIA booth

I did not like it.
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post #26 of 172 Old 09-24-2010, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon Master View Post

I am at Cedia and have seen the new "reflective" Epson, the new JVC 3D, the LG 3D projector, the new Sony 3D model and others including an LED lit DLP unit.

By far and away the huge, dual LCOS projector LG for $15K(?) produced the largest size, better, brighter most realistic 3D image. There is no competition to it. It is in a class by itself.

Sony has a beautiful demo room but the 3D image of their new 3D model is chock full of ghosting and the 3D image with shutter glasses on is dim. It is rated at 1000 lumens which might be fine for 2D but not 3D. This leaves JVC and Epson to discuss.

The new JVC is a nice unit and has very good picture detail and 3D quality. The three new 3D units from JVC are all rated at 1300 lumens. The new reflective (they are not calling it LCOS) Epson unit has a very rich and deep color image. It puts out 1200 lumens. It think in 2D it may have richer and deeper color than the new JVC's but they are close. The two new Epson's will sell for $4K to $7K. The new 3D JVC's will sell for $5K to $12K. Since JVC has 3D now (shipping next month or so) and Epson won't have 3D till January or later then the nod has to go to JVC.

As much as I would love to put Sony in the mix, its 3D performance was the worse of those I have mentioned and perhaps even the worse I have seen here at Cedia. I cannot express after the buildup about Sony's new projector how disappointing it was to see it under what was ideal demo conditions.

The LG 3D projector with its dual internal LCOS projectors is huge but man does it perform. The issue I have with it is the company itself. LG does not have a good dealer/distribution plan in place for their projectors and they do not seem to know how to get these to market with a good dealer network to support them. They claim to be trying to work this out. If I had the money to burn I would not hesitate to buy the LG 3D projector but I cannot suggest anyone purchase it till they get a better dealer and support network in place.

Thus in summary JVC is the one to buy today if you want the best 3D picture with shutter glasses but with a projector that uses the cheap non-shutter polaroid type glasses then LG puts the best image on the screen.

BTW the DLP/LED projector had a nice image but it is too dim to be a serious contender in todays projector market unless you can be happy with a six foot image. Most demos I saw were on seven to ten foot screens. There were commercial projectors showing on much larger screens but that is not what most of you and I are interested in for now anyway. ; )

I agree for 3d the LG is the winner in it's class. However at $15k PLUS a special screen (not cheap either), coupled with inferior 2d performance (notice they don't show much if any 2d) to other competing models, you would REALLY have to love 3d to justify the investment...and I think that is another of their huge hurdles.
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post #27 of 172 Old 09-24-2010, 04:24 PM
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a few thoughts i had from out here on a lobby computer, the SIM2 demo was 2 projectors costing $80,000 for their 3D setup. a bit pricey to me...

The JVC was using a black diamond screen so i dont feel i can vouch for the black levels compared to other projectors, of course it looked good but is it the same on a white screen?

I thought the Epson looked great. the harry potter scene black levels were excellent to me. calibrated very well i thought and that is only the middle level projector. Their 61000 model didnt make it for the show. I can't wait to get home and run the same scene on my panasonic and see how the difference seems to me.

Is there any kind of AVS gathering point or anything? i wouldnt mind meeting some of the major regulars.
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post #28 of 172 Old 09-24-2010, 04:25 PM
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Actually forgot to mention the Sony 3D seemed awefull to me, the white levels were horrid, white with glasses off looked normal, but was very grey looking with glasses on.
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post #29 of 172 Old 09-24-2010, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitlman View Post

The JVC was using a black diamond screen

Which gain? 0.8 or 1.4? Was it enough bright in 3D mode?

Thanks.
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post #30 of 172 Old 09-24-2010, 06:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by umr View Post

I did not like it.

You did not like it?....That's it?....Do you think you could elaborate a little?...What did you not like?...
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