A survey on Views about Frame Interpolation and Clear Motion - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: What are your views on Frame Interpolation?
I see FI as a good feature - I'd use it with both TV and Film content (like Blu-Ray) 0 0%
I value FI as a good feature - I'd mainly use it with TV-based content (like sports) 0 0%
I value FI as a good feature - I'd mainly use it with Film-based content (like Blu-Ray) 0 0%
I don't value FI, and don't think it should be available 0 0%
I don't value FI, but understand those that do may want it as a feature 0 0%
I haven't seen FI in action, but am interested in seeing its effects 0 0%
I feel, regardless, that if a feature is promoted, it MUST work as advertised 0 0%
Voters: 0. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 31 Old 09-28-2010, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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A Timely POLL! Not JUST about JVC projectors, but about Frame Interpolation in general, on various brands and display types.

Frame Interpolation has become a big feature on many display devices. It has the ability to create much smoother motion and enable viewers to see a lot more detail in a scene that moves quickly, by creating more steps in the motion and making it easier for the eye to track the movement.

Whether these scenes be sports (such as football, basketball, baseball and auto racing), or film entertainment (such as epic air/space battles, car chases and fight scenes), consumers everywhere have been spoilt for choice as this capability has become more widely available, and of higher quality, than ever before.

Most implementations of this fabulous technology function well with both TV-based (sports) and film-based (such as Blu-ray) material. There are some older implementations that "lost the plot" a bit in some situations, but even these has now been improved. Last year, JVC released the feature (at last!) on their DiLA projectors, but, as it turned out, its implementation was flawed on arguably the most important home theater source of all - Blu-Ray!

So here we are... we wait, with abated breath, for the confirmation from JVC as to whether the "upgraded" Frame Interpolation system, in their 2010 projector line-up, is now "fixed" and finally compatible with Blu-ray movies. So, while we wait, I thought I'd get everyone's opinion about Frame Interpolation technology and the viewing improvment it provides, and how you use it.

We know that some people like FI with Blu-ray movies, some don't and some take a live-and-let-live approach. Some users love the feature with sports, but don't care about using it with movies. Some people see the feature as a benefit to both sports and movies. This poll is not just about whether we like FI or not, but about whether a feature should function as advertised, whether we choose to use it or not.

We know that JVC's promotional video for the 2010 product line-up now states categorically that their "upgraded" Clear Motion Drive (their name for Frame Interpolation) "is designed for Blu-Ray" and other video sources - this is a step beyond their marketing position last year, and implies that it will now interpolate Blu-Ray sources correctly without the awful artifacting of last year's models.

So! While we wait for that news, let's talk about Frame Interpolation in general - Cast your vote!
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post #2 of 31 Old 09-28-2010, 03:49 PM
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I take the live and let live approach...I hope you get it, even though I'm not bothered.

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post #3 of 31 Old 09-28-2010, 04:23 PM
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I totally appreciate it with 60fps 720/1080 broadcasts such as TV shows and Sports, but I wouldn't be caught dead watching a Bluray movie with it turned on unless it's necessary with 3D. It's simple, 24fps is the way the movie has been shot, yes it's blurry, and yes it looks gritty sometimes, but that's WHY IT'S FILM and NOT TV!!

Don't get me started on some of my friends who'd invited me over to watch blu-ray movies with 120hz/240hz flat panels with FI turned on, I almost feel like smacking them across the head and walking out, but instead I try to educate or just nicely look away for 90 mins and my nightmare is over with.

Watching a movie for me is a pleasureable escape from reality, if I wanted the movie to look all waxy and soap-opera-ish, I can just look out my window. With that being said, I would love to watch sports on a 120/240hz TVs or projectors, they truely make a difference, just please turn off this crap when you're watching a movie.
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post #4 of 31 Old 09-28-2010, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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There was a great poll put up last year by Lawguy in which some folks expressed some good views on the subject.

I asked the question differently but, out of 122 responders, 72% viewed FI favourably, despite what the other few thought about it.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1170608

I like the-phew's comment that the smoother the presentation, the more immersion into the movie one experiences.

I agree with him - if god had wanted us to experience life at 24p, he'd have put shutters over our eyes.
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post #5 of 31 Old 09-28-2010, 07:42 PM
 
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I wouldn't even consider a projector without it... It of course needs to function well as it does on the Panasonic projectors.
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post #6 of 31 Old 09-28-2010, 11:18 PM
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This one, suit better for me:

"I don't value FI, but understand those that do may want it as a feature"
Thanks
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post #7 of 31 Old 09-29-2010, 01:24 AM
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The AE4000 has good FI implementation, especially on 24p material. After using it for a while, it's become a rather painful experience watching 24p without FI.

The effect on 60p is somewhat mixed. There are times when one gets the vague feeling the processor is struggling to cope , but it's difficult to pin it down.

So which of the new LCOS has better FI implementation? rdjam has explained the workings of JVC's 120Hz Clear Motion Drive, does anyone know how the Sony's 240Hz implementation work?
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post #8 of 31 Old 09-29-2010, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariner888 View Post

The AE4000 has good FI implementation, especially on 24p material. After using it for a while, it's become a rather painful experience watching 24p without FI.

I haven't seen Panasonic's implementation yet - I'm very interested in checking it out.

And you are right, once you have gotten used to how smooth and immersive movies are with the additional frames, going back to 24p is quite jarring. It is much harder to follow action at 24p, and your eyes retain all these edges from an object that moves too quickly for the format.
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post #9 of 31 Old 09-29-2010, 10:45 AM
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It could be a very nice feature for bluray - if it works properly. For me that means discreetly. I would just want it to clean up motion/panning issues or bump up the sense of depth in weak movies or dvd. I don't like the "soap opera" look or weird motion that I have seen on CERTAIN implementations.

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post #10 of 31 Old 09-29-2010, 01:44 PM
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I use mode 1 (lowest) FI on my Epson 8500 projector for blu-ray (1080p24) and mode 2 (medium) FI for sports (1080i60) and find both to be great. It greatly reduces horizontal and vertical judder on film without making it look like day time soap.

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post #11 of 31 Old 09-30-2010, 07:05 PM
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I voted for the last option, since the FI with bluray was the main reason I purchased the RS15 over the RS20. I would use my second vote for the 1st option.

I watched a few movies on the AE3000 with its FI set to low, and I really liked the elimination of judder. It's not perfect, though, and really fast scenes still had choppiness/blurriness. I'm surprised none of the manufacturers have implemented an "adaptive" setting that detects motion and switches between off, low, medium and high depending on the speed of the motion within the content. That way slow motion dialog scenes can still have the dreamy/hypnotic/nostalgic 24p effect, and when the action starts it the interpolation discreetly becomes more aggressive so motion detail is not lost.

Maybe once content starts getting filmed and distributed with higher frame rates, the movie makers will then be able to choose whatever speed of motion they want for any particular scene. If that happens, all this fancy FI processing will be rendered useless.
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post #12 of 31 Old 10-01-2010, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j5627429 View Post

I voted for the last option, since the FI with bluray was the main reason I purchased the RS15 over the RS20. I would use my second vote for the 1st option.

I watched a few movies on the AE3000 with its FI set to low, and I really liked the elimination of judder. It's not perfect, though, and really fast scenes still had choppiness/blurriness. I'm surprised none of the manufacturers have implemented an "adaptive" setting that detects motion and switches between off, low, medium and high depending on the speed of the motion within the content. That way slow motion dialog scenes can still have the dreamy/hypnotic/nostalgic 24p effect, and when the action starts it the interpolation discreetly becomes more aggressive so motion detail is not lost.

Maybe once content starts getting filmed and distributed with higher frame rates, the movie makers will then be able to choose whatever speed of motion they want for any particular scene. If that happens, all this fancy FI processing will be rendered useless.

I'm in the same boat, FI was why I upgraded last year. Hopefully it can be confirmed soon that it works properly with Bluray in this year's lineup.

There is TALK of higher frame rates in Hollywood, for instance James Cameron has made it clear he hates 24p, for the accident of history that it is. But even with his pushing, we're unlikely to see any meaningful changes soon.

So I think decent FI implementations are our best hope for improving the presentation of these films, especially when you look at the legacy of all films produced to date.
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post #13 of 31 Old 10-01-2010, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogone View Post

I wouldn't even consider a projector without it... It of course needs to function well as it does on the Panasonic projectors.

Agreed. It works flawlessly (to my eyes) on my AE4000. I don't even get lip-synch issues when it is set to high for sports/concerts, etc.

I understand that many would prefer not to use FI, but I'm interested in the 4 people who voted that they don't think anyone should have it, because they don't want it. I really hope they are joking, or else I feel bad for them.

Art
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post #14 of 31 Old 10-03-2010, 08:07 AM
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I'm very interested to see how well JVC's new black frame insertion would work, as an alternative to FI with movies. Especially for those who don't need the extra brightness all the time (i.e. during night time movie watching), this would be a good use of the extra lumens, if it works well.
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post #15 of 31 Old 10-03-2010, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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its no substitute for FI at all. According to the JVC guy at CEDIA, it *can* be combined with FI, so 48p after FI is then flashed at 96hz with added black frames in between the 48p.

Alternatively, the 48p is then double flashed at 96hz - which I think can't help but look brighter.

the problem with 24p is its low frame rate and the distraction that causes in action or fast pans. Black frame insertion would be of now help whatsoever, and would not be a viable alternative to FI, if even considered in that context.

If JVC has NOT fixed the FI for this year and attempts to tout black frame insertion as a solution, then it will be no sale, and no support, from me.
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post #16 of 31 Old 10-03-2010, 09:29 AM
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rdjam,
Your passion on this subject is just this side of unhinged
I love the JVC (in the RS25) implementation for sports, but I'm a purist for film and leave it off. I wish JVC had implimented intelligence so that CM would automatically be turned off for 1080p24f input.

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post #17 of 31 Old 10-03-2010, 10:13 AM
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black frame insertion is helpful in reducing the sample and hold effect. Some people use frame interpolation to reduce sample and hold effect as well so they are at least somewhat interchangeable for some people.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #18 of 31 Old 10-03-2010, 11:48 AM
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I bought the 8500ub for this feature and have found that it causes more problems than it fixes. Using frame interpolation seems to work somewhat ok with football but causes the scrolling on the bottom of a station such as espn to jerk, freeze, judder and jump. So I usually just leave it off.
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post #19 of 31 Old 10-03-2010, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhunt17 View Post

I bought the 8500ub for this feature and have found that it causes more problems than it fixes. Using frame interpolation seems to work somewhat ok with football but causes the scrolling on the bottom of a station such as espn to jerk, freeze, judder and jump. So I usually just leave it off.

That sounds like an implementation issue. That doesn't happen with the JVC - their implementation of 60i TV sources is very good. Just 24p that was goofed.
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post #20 of 31 Old 10-03-2010, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

JVC - their implementation of 60i TV sources is very good.

Unless I'm missing something I can't even engage Clear Motion Drive when I am in an ISF mode on my RS35.

btw
"Ahh... Formula 1 on full song with Frame Interpolation. A thing of beauty..."
????
F1 is shot with SD cameras. The PQ sucks!
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post #21 of 31 Old 10-04-2010, 11:14 PM
 
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I would never use it on watching content that has already been created, and consider it the anti-christ for film-based content.

However, I do very much like frame-interpolation in doing video production work because it allows me to do slow-motion really nicely on content that wasn't shot at higher framerates. It isn't artifact free, but it's a very effective tool.

As such, I feel that high-quality frame-interpolation tools are valuable, and I don't mind seeing them in displays and in products and to see these tools improve, but I never use them and have no interest in using them for viewing content, only for creating content.

My .02.
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post #22 of 31 Old 10-05-2010, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

I would never use it on watching content that has already been created, and consider it the anti-christ for film-based content.

This.

To me it's like adding pink elephants into every scene, for all contents.

Sure, some people like elephants, especially the pink ones, but to me it makes more sense to ask "what the h*ll are they doing there!?"
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post #23 of 31 Old 10-05-2010, 06:43 AM
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Remember interlaced sources? They have to be deinterlaced to be displayed progressively and for video this simply can not be done without some artifacting, if the the two adjancent i frames are not identical motion wise. If the deinterlacer designer addresses one artifact, another artifact will generally get worse. All artifacts are not continually present, they just appear when the source contains something the deinterlacer can`t properly deal with because its algs are not optimized to deal with that artifact to the maximum extent it could. The more computing power one has to do the job, the higher the level of processing that can be used. Ask Alan G. about his very expensive Teranax processor. I smile when someone says FI is a great invention. It is really nothing more than an artifically generated frame (assuming only one interpolated frame is being inserted) between the source frames. There is no reason why many frames can`t be flashed between source frames other than there is only so much time. The problem or one of them is that the artificial frames are a computer guestimate picture of what the frame is that would have been shot at that exact moment is. It can never be exactly right unless the two frames surrounding the interpolated frames are exactly the same motion wise. A stationary test pattern can be perfectly interpolated, in essence copy one frame and insert, With two frames that are different because objects or the camera has moved, the interprolated frame will not likely be exactly correct because the information needed to make it correct is not there. It has to be guessed.

Asking them to fix FI implies that it is broken. Can you make it better by using more processing power please. Can you use a more advanced alg or a more sophisticated processing mode? Could you please throw a Teranax inside that machine and keep the street price at a level I feel comfortable buying at? OK.


Black frame insertion. A number of frames are flashed with FI and black frame insertion. Some repeats of an original frame, some artificially generated frames of what hopefully is close to what have been an original frame in that point of time, and black frames. If some of the lit frames are now replaced with a black frame, the picture gets dimmer. Black frame insertion without compensation elsewhere really dims the image. Solution. Goose up the brightness of the real or interpolated frames and let your eye average them out. That`s the solution done. Sounds bad? Certainly won`t replicate classsic film projection. For video is video. Video is all processing from how a frame is captured to how it is delivered and displayed. It can always be better. So give me more frames at capture or a way of generating artificial frames that is perfect. If one sees any wrong (artifacts) just yell, fix it. Its broken.

No. Its not broken. Please make it better. Much better.

OK. It will cost you though.

Well maybe you could give me a free taste. What? You know, make it a little better without raising the price.

(It feels good to wake up, drink some coffee, release any tension by posting a rant, informative or others or not, but nevertheless a rant against a poor consumer who just wants something that is better)

FIX IT OR BE GUILTY OF FALSE ADVERTISING. You said it has a feature and I don`t think your implementaion is good enough for me. OK your ads are not misleading. I understand.

what I mean is that the best you can for the money. Could you please improve it. Thanks.

OK I`ll try but it can`t be and won`t be perfect. OK?

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post #24 of 31 Old 10-05-2010, 08:56 AM
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Mark - LOL.

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post #25 of 31 Old 10-07-2010, 07:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundas View Post

Unless I'm missing something I can't even engage Clear Motion Drive when I am in an ISF mode on my RS35.

btw
"Ahh... Formula 1 on full song with Frame Interpolation. A thing of beauty..."
????
F1 is shot with SD cameras. The PQ sucks!

okayyyy then....

1) The JVC implementation of FI "is" very good with 1080i60 sources.... I've had to endure NUMEROUS episodes of dancing with the stars with the girlfiend, and can personlly attest to it being just "super"

2) F1 is actually filmed in HD - when I get it on Dish it is 720p60, which also happens to work very well on the JVC implentation (I do love F1) and I've watched a LOT of it on the JVC. However, at no point did I imply that F1 was 60i....

Sooo....
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post #26 of 31 Old 10-08-2010, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

okayyyy then....

1) The JVC implementation of FI "is" very good with 1080i60 sources.... I've had to endure NUMEROUS episodes of dancing with the stars with the girlfiend, and can personlly attest to it being just "super"

2) F1 is actually filmed in HD - when I get it on Dish it is 720p60, which also happens to work very well on the JVC implentation (I do love F1) and I've watched a LOT of it on the JVC. However, at no point did I imply that F1 was 60i....

Sooo....

1) Have you had your projector calibrated? There is no way to use CMD when you are in an ISF picture mode.

2) Wrong! (Google it) Formula One Management only provide standard definition to all the broadcasters around the world who then can upscale it for broadcast on their HD channels. The picture quality does not compare to true high definition (Nascar, NFL, NBA, etc., etc.). Back in June Ecclestone said "As soon as the broadcasters tell me they want it," he said, "we can do it. I think next year is too soon; we're looking at more like 2012." The greedy little pr*ck is trying to blame his customers, the broadcasters.
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post #27 of 31 Old 10-08-2010, 11:20 AM
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At least on my Samsung (which has 1st gen FI), FI makes me motion sick. I was very happy when they "fixed" it on my TV, the fix being the ability to actually turn it off. FI looked great in the store, but it literally made me sick at home. I have not seen 2nd or 3rd gen FI, so things may be much better now.
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post #28 of 31 Old 10-08-2010, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundas View Post

1) Have you had your projector calibrated? There is no way to use CMD when you are in an ISF picture mode.

2) Wrong! (Google it) Formula One Management only provide standard definition to all the broadcasters around the world who then can upscale it for broadcast on their HD channels. The picture quality does not compare to true high definition (Nascar, NFL, NBA, etc., etc.). Back in June Ecclestone said "As soon as the broadcasters tell me they want it," he said, "we can do it. I think next year is too soon; we're looking at more like 2012." The greedy little pr*ck is trying to blame his customers, the broadcasters.

1) No, I was happy with the picture out of the box, so haven't gotten around to it yet. Have CalMan and CalMan Spyder3 sitting all lonely in the drawer!

2) The B*st**ds! Well, SpeedHD seems to do a good job upsampling it - I suspect it's filmed at 576i PAL anyway, which helps. Regardless, the frame interpolation works beautifully with the uprezzed HD end result I get on Dish. The action is VERY smooth and easy to follow. Makes it easier to see more details as well.
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post #29 of 31 Old 10-11-2010, 12:06 AM
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Quote:


It will cost you though.

If only FI had funding like F1...
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post #30 of 31 Old 10-11-2010, 12:21 AM
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Animation and monkeying with frames doesn't work. It looks terrible on movies too. Floaty looking.
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