The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 2269 Old 05-25-2011, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by jack-bauer View Post

Looks familiar?

2 x VPL-HW15 about the same as HW10.
Jack

Thanks JAck.
Do you think Dolby flat filters are the best solution so far?
How about the lumens with these Sony VPL´s?
Bright enough?
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post #632 of 2269 Old 05-25-2011, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marjanen View Post

Do you think Dolby flat filters are the best solution so far?
How about the lumens with these Sony VPL´s?
Bright enough?

Ha! By far the best! ...in my opinion of course.
Though, some polar users may not agree. Of course, they have never tried Dolby . I have tried both. Their problem is that they have invested in a silverscreen and dont want to spend more money. That's understandable.

I also have a Harkness 240 silverscreen that I hide behind my white screen (I am ashamed of it... waste basket seems to be a more appropriate place to put it).

But when you start from scratch, you want the best option. Both technologies cost about the same. Flat dolby filters=320$.

If you want to experiment first, it is very easy at a very reasonable cost: Just buy two pairs of Dolby glasses (cat 834, the ones with glass lenses, not the recent plastics). They are listed at 17$ in Dolby's catalog. They may be more expensive, depends on where you buy them. Then you can use one as filters for the projectors, as you have seen in the link I gave previously. That will give you an idea.

Flat filters are better but not so much. You simply will have to ignore the color shift in the corners of the image, if you project short throw.

Do that *before* ever thinking to buy a silverscreen. If you are not convinced, it is still time to buy one.

About brightness:
My throw is 3 meters and my screen is 2 meter wide. I am using eco mode in 2D and full lamp mode in 3D. With the filters on and color correction activated, brightness is just slightly lower in 3D than in 2D, but still high enough. It seems that HW10 and HW15 are both 1000 lumen projectors, so you will have no problem. Light attenuation is exactly the same as when I used polars. What you lose is the silverscreen gain (2.4 at hotspot, but only 1.3 average).

Color correction is done in the projector settings. I will give you the data. You switch from 2D (lamp eco, no color correction) to 3D mode (lamp full + color correction) at the touch of a single key on the remote.

Jack
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post #633 of 2269 Old 05-25-2011, 03:11 PM
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I tried today with a mkv-file and Dune Prime 1.0 instead of the HTPC. The file was SBS and I do have to tell that adjusting the projectors is quite tricky. Even though I tried adjusting also with BlackShark's test image and got it pretty close, in 3D it didn't work that well nevertheless: only a part of the picture is in focus.

Again, I have only used the half-wave retarder on one of the projectors and meanwhile the other one is without any filters. Perhaps I would be better off experimenting with the circular filters, well, I do have to experiment more.

Any tips on how to adjust the projectors better are appreciated of course!

Solid_dvd
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post #634 of 2269 Old 05-25-2011, 03:12 PM
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Many people are happy with the Harkness 240. 3 meters is a pretty short throw though, so i could see that causing hotspotting. Of course there are some new 3D screens that may be better too. The Harkeness wasn't designed for homes, but theaters with curved screens.
Hopefully whoever is working on it will soon come out with that box that does the splitting and color correction at once.
If dolby 3d works so well, I wonder why LG didn't use that system on their flat panel passive tv's instead of the silly half resolution solution.
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post #635 of 2269 Old 05-25-2011, 03:53 PM
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Solid_dvd, did you get your projectors mounted on top of each other instead of side by side? Make sure the lenses are centered as much as possible to the screen. If you have lens shift you shouldn't have a problem getting both projectors in focus. What projectors are you using? I would really get filters so you can see how it looks through the glasses before worring too much about it. Jacks suggestion of using dolby glasses for filters seems smart. You only need two pairs of glasses to test it out.
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post #636 of 2269 Old 05-25-2011, 04:10 PM
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Lining up the projectors perfectly is difficult but it can be done. (I managed to get it perfectly centred and within +/-1 pixel on the sides... until I moved the screen and threw my perfect calibration through the window at the same time)
However using the horizontal lens shift will only work if the screen is flat.

Curved screen have their own geometric projection properties that just won't work with standard orthographic projection lenses, and the curved adaptor lenses used for curved screens also have specific geometric requirements. The shape of the lens needs to be different depending on if the projector is at the centre of the screen or offset.

If your curved screen is a spherical curve (almost nobody uses those) : no lens shift will ever fix this : you need either custom lenses or to use prisms to merge the two light beams (but that's complicated and I have no experience with those).
If your curved screen is a cylindrical curve (most curved screens are), horizontal shift on curved screen cannot work, but vertical shift will work.

Passive 3D, forever !

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post #637 of 2269 Old 05-25-2011, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jack-bauer View Post

I also have a Harkness 240 silverscreen that I hide behind my white screen (I am ashamed of it... waste basket seems to be a more appropriate place to put it).



Jack

Thanks again Jack!

So am I geting this right? So you do not need a silver screen when using Dolby. Would my current screen do it okey?
I´ve done it myself. Its grey paint which is very common here if you do your screen yourself.
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post #638 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 01:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solid_dvd View Post

... only a part of the picture is in focus.

What do you mean by that?
Pick one:
1. Is it out of focus when projecting 2D with only one projector ?
2. Do you have image doubling when projecting with two projectors ?

If case #1, it is because of your curved screen. BlackShark explained it very well. Still, a curved screen with a depth of 10centimeters for example is within the reasonable field depth and everything should be in focus (unless you have very picky eyes...). I have tried that too. If you do have everything in focus when using only one single projector, your screen is fine.

If case #2, this will be solved when you have your second filter. 3D doesn't require perfect adjustment. You cannot experiment with only one filter, unless you use only one eye that discards the filtered projector. With circular filters or retarders, you will have ghosting though. Image may not been as crisp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

Many people are happy with the Harkness 240. 3 meters is a pretty short throw though, so i could see that causing hotspotting. Of course there are some new 3D screens that may be better too. The Harkeness wasn't designed for homes, but theaters with curved screens.
Hopefully whoever is working on it will soon come out with that box that does the splitting and color correction at once.
If dolby 3d works so well, I wonder why LG didn't use that system on their flat panel passive tv's instead of the silly half resolution solution.

You are perfectly right wnielsenbb. 3 meters is a very short throw and hotspot is severe. Harkness, beeing second after Stewart, is a very good screen but not designed for home. I was most annoyed by the grain. You cannot see it when sitting 10 meters from it, but at 3 meters, it is definitely a no-go. It ruins full DH resolution. Also it introduces a screendoor effect which adds a fixed layer in depth in 3D. Horrible.

Dolby technology is affordable only for DIY setups. On a commercial basis, they require that you get a license which is *very* expensive and not in your budget. For example, filters and color correction box is several thousands dollars.

Anyway, the dolby filters work exactly the same as polars and you get half resolution as well if implemented on TVs. Polars is the best solution here as there is no hotspot and no grain (and no license fee). Only the silverscreen is an issue in polarized video.

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Originally Posted by marjanen View Post

So you do not need a silver screen when using Dolby. Would my current screen do it okey?
I´ve done it myself. Its grey paint which is very common here if you do your screen yourself.

That's the beauty of Dolby/Infitec: You do not need a silverscreen. Silverscreen is rarely a deliberate choice. With polarizers you cannot help it because it cannot work without.
Grey paint? It will improve contrast if you do not have a dedicated and light controlled projection room. But if you do, pure white is better. Grey means you lose light. Period.

Jack
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post #639 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by jack-bauer View Post

That's the beauty of Dolby/Infitec: You do not need a silverscreen. Silverscreen is rarely a deliberate choice. With polarizers you cannot help it because it cannot work without.
Grey paint? It will improve contrast if you do not have a dedicated and light controlled projection room. But if you do, pure white is better. Grey means you lose light. Period.

Jack

Hi. Yeah it´s kind of grey but not that dark you know.
Check the page: (use google translate if you don´t read Finnish...)
http://www.tikkurila.fi/kotimaalarit...s_edullisesti/

COuld someone give me a link to buy a few of these glasses. thx!
I found 3 different from ebay but are thouse correct)
:http://cgi.ebay.com/DOLBY-3-D-Digita...item483d29715f


If I want to test linear polarization could I just buy a piece of silver fabric first for test. Should I get a picture with that or should it be something special fabric? like this one: http://www.kangasojanaho.fi/app/thum...32d16325c64419
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post #640 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 09:07 AM
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So rjdam's setup has tested both linear and circular polarization using two projectors, 2 3dxls, an hdmi splitter, etc. But linear/circular polarization requires the use of a silver screen.

Now you have mentioned "flat" filters by Dolby/Inf. And this would not require a silver screen. So is the only changes to the setup rdjam demonstrated to change the filters over the projector lenses and the glasses used? Or is this a completely different setup?


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post #641 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack-bauer View Post

What do you mean by that?
Pick one:
1. Is it out of focus when projecting 2D with only one projector ?
2. Do you have image doubling when projecting with two projectors ?

If case #1, it is because of your curved screen. BlackShark explained it very well. Still, a curved screen with a depth of 10centimeters for example is within the reasonable field depth and everything should be in focus (unless you have very picky eyes...). I have tried that too. If you do have everything in focus when using only one single projector, your screen is fine.

If case #2, this will be solved when you have your second filter. 3D doesn't require perfect adjustment. You cannot experiment with only one filter, unless you use only one eye that discards the filtered projector. With circular filters or retarders, you will have ghosting though. Image may not been as crisp.

It is in focus with one projector. And with two projectors in 2D there is slight image doubling (3-6 pixels) at 1/3 of the screen, but otherwise its in quite good focus.

My curved screen's depth is 15 cm and the two projectors sit beside each other.

I tried only one filter (half-wave filter), when I looked at yunti's post #525, but today I realized that I don't have 0/90 linear glasses at all, instead they are the regular ones 35/145, so that's why it did not work. Today I will try RBTO's advice for circular filters and turning them around (post #523). I don't know exactly how to determine, when the filters are at right angle, but I will then just turn them around and eventually hopefully I will find the proper combination
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post #642 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 10:28 AM
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Solid_dvd - I wouldn't worry about focus with both projectors on and no glasses on.
damelon - "Now you have mentioned "flat" filters by Dolby/Inf. And this would not require a silver screen. So is the only changes to the setup rdjam demonstrated to change the filters over the projector lenses and the glasses used? Or is this a completely different setup?"
Yes, the only difference is the filters and glasses, and instead of needing a silverscreen, you need color correction. Those glasses are expensive though. Rechargable ultraclear 3D glasses are only $20 more. Of course low adoption is a problem there.
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post #643 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by solid_dvd View Post

It is in focus with one projector. And with two projectors in 2D there is slight image doubling (3-6 pixels) at 1/3 of the screen, but otherwise its in quite good focus.

Absolutely no problem with 3D then. Your setup is quite fine.
You may run into others issues though, such as ghosting, color shift, both related to circular polarization.

Also hot spots not at the same location because of horizontal stacking. The rule that both eyes must see same brightness is violated.

About ghosting, the numbers below have been reported for extinction values:
- Circular (or retarders-same thing): 80-100 range
- Linear: 100-150 range
- Dolby/Infitec: 1000 theory (200-250 practice)

Jack
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post #644 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 10:41 AM
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So with Dolby3D we need color correction, don´t we?
Can it be done in the projectors setup ´cos i won´t be using pc as the number one source ´cos I wanna watch live broatcast from satellite, side by side...
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post #645 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

Yes, the only difference is the filters and glasses, and instead of needing a silverscreen, you need color correction. Those glasses are expensive though. Rechargable ultraclear 3D glasses are only $20 more. Of course low adoption is a problem there.

These ultraclear 3D glasses are for active 3d, yeah?
So nothing to do with two projecting setup...
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post #646 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by marjanen View Post

So with Dolby3D we need color correction, don´t we?
Can it be done in the projectors setup ´cos i won´t be using pc as the number one source ´cos I wanna watch live broatcast from satellite, side by side...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post20269971
Jack
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post #647 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post
Now you have mentioned "flat" filters by Dolby/Inf. And this would not require a silver screen. So is the only changes to the setup rdjam demonstrated to change the filters over the projector lenses and the glasses used? Or is this a completely different setup?"
Yes, the only difference is the filters and glasses, and instead of needing a silverscreen, you need color correction. Those glasses are expensive though. Rechargable ultraclear 3D glasses are only $20 more. Of course low adoption is a problem there.
From what I've seen Dolby 3D glasses cost $17... that doesn't sound expensive to me. (EDIT: marjanen solved this question... he meant the active glasses were expensive) If people can use Dolby 3D as a passive application, and doesn't require special screens, etc. Why is it that adoption has been low so far? Are the circular/linear polarization options just better or is that personal opinion? I was planning to just copy rdjam's examples but I didn't want to use a silver screen. So now that I see I wouldn't have to do that with Dolby/Infitec, I'm trying to weigh the pros and cons of using Dolby/Infitec (flat) vs circular/linear polarization.


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post #648 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post
If your curved screen is a spherical curve (almost nobody uses those) : no lens shift will ever fix this : you need either custom lenses or to use prisms to merge the two light beams (but that's complicated and I have no experience with those).
Speak for yourself. I use Torusses any chance I get.


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post #649 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack-bauer View Post
Absolutely no problem with 3D then. Your setup is quite fine.
You may run into others issues though, such as ghosting, color shift, both related to circular polarization.

Also hot spots not at the same location because of horizontal stacking. The rule that both eyes must see same brightness is violated.

About ghosting, the numbers below have been reported for extinction values:
- Circular (or retarders-same thing): 80-100 range
- Linear: 100-150 range
- Dolby/Infitec: 1000 theory (200-250 practice)

Jack
Extended eyewear comfort is a factor you appear not to be addressing, the glare in the Dolby Glasses can be distracting whereas I have found that a great pair of RealD glases with a good silver screen is quite ghost free but most importantly ORGANIC which the Dolby ain't.

IOW those specs are misleading about what the actual quality of the image ends up being.


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post #650 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by RBTO View Post
Actually, the circular polarizers that you've already ordered will work for linear polarizers as well. All you need to do is flip them around backwards on your projector, so the retarder layer is towards the projector, and the linear layer is towards the screen. That will depolarize your projector light (actually circularly polarize it) and then the linear layer will only let linear polarized light through. I don't know if that makes sense, but you don't need the extra retarder material. Once you've reversed the filters, you'll need to rotate them to get the proper linear angle for each projector. Most commercial linear glasses are at the 45 and 135 degree angles.
Could please someone tell me the best way to test that I have the filters in the direction suggested by RBTO and how to work my way up to have the filters at the correct angles? I am losing the little hair I have left on my head over this. Thanks for the info again guys.

Edit: I went this whole thread through, but still today I didn't manage to rotate the filters into their correct place. My other bulb in my JVC is a cheaper version of the original bulb and this projector seems to be displaying a lot less light. I might have difficulties there, even though the projector with the new original bulb is displaying images only in "normal" mode, while the one with the copy bulb displayes images in "high" mode.

I put my linear glasses on, but the two circular filters on top of each other and turned them around and looked at the light and saw, where light could no go pass the filters and where it could. Surely there is some easy way like the one described above to test that the filters are 45/135 degrees and that the linear layer is towards the screen?
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post #651 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jack-bauer View Post
Thanks Jack, I allready read that...

But didnt quite get it.
So just simply: Can you do everything without the computer? Just a satellite dvb-s2 box (with some cccam ) and through a hdmi splitter to 2 3dxls and all the way to the projectors.
So you can adjust the picture so that the colors are natural?

Thanks Jack my new mate.
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post #652 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 02:27 PM
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I got you PMs. I will answer here for the benefit of others:

STANDARD setup:
If you use a standard source (3D bluray player, dvb box whatever) , you want to be HDMI 1.4 compatible. So you need something to send L image to one proj and R image to the other.

So far, the configuration able to do that is:
- HDMI 1.4 splitter
- 2x 3DXL, one sending R, the other sending L to the projectors.
- color correction in projectors.

MY SETUP:
If you use a PC as input, you can either use 2 outputs from your graphic card directly connected to the projs. (or like me, use an external splitter like triplehead2Go from Matrox). But you are not HDMI 1.4 compatible any more. This is only for Side-by-Side MKV/AVI reencodes on any player and SSIF on stereoscopic player.

I'll suggest you use your PC for the time beeing, do color correction with the projs and wait till the end of the year for more.

To standardize my setup, I will wait for Pterodactyl'box which will do everything we want: HDMI 1.4 input, splitting AND color correction as well.

Jack
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post #653 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Extended eyewear comfort is a factor you appear not to be addressing, the glare in the Dolby Glasses can be distracting whereas I have found that a great pair of RealD glases with a good silver screen is quite ghost free but most importantly ORGANIC which the Dolby ain't.

IOW those specs are misleading about what the actual quality of the image ends up being.

You are right, dolby glasses have reflections. My typical audience never complained about it though, even when I asked them. I would say the reflection is only obvious when you wear prescription glasses without ar coating underneath. The new cat 832 plastic glasses from dolby do have ar coating but I have not tested them.

If RealD was so ghost free, why do theaters use ghostbusting ??

By the way, theaters owners' words:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopi...12986&start=39

"but most importantly ORGANIC" ok....what is the benefit for us?

Jack
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post #654 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 02:51 PM
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"From what I've seen Dolby 3D glasses cost $17... that doesn't sound expensive to me. (EDIT: marjanen solved this question... he meant the active glasses were expensive) If people can use Dolby 3D as a passive application, and doesn't require special screens, etc. Why is it that adoption has been low so far?"
Well, the dolby passive glasses I saw on ebay were 30. Active glasses(unrelated to passive, but require eletronics/rechargable battery, etc) were 50. One of many reasons for passive is the cheap glasses, but $30 isn't cheap.
Adoption has been low because Dolby doesn't really care about us little people. They only make stuff for commercial theaters. Without something special to do the color correction, it is much easier to do a polarized passive system and get the special screen. Once Pterodactyl's company gets that special box out to do the splitting/correction I think you will see a great many people switch to Dolby. polarized will still have an advantage in cheaper/more comfortable glasses, but the advantage of not needing a special screen is huge. Smart people have put a good deal of their budget into the screen. Projectors will come and go, but your screen can be around forever. Get a good one.
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post #655 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 03:06 PM
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CINERAMAX, I know you are a pro. I am just wondering if you have compared home theater 3D systems. I would love your comparisons there. I think the best 3D at home will be a pair of long throw projectors with linear passive filters on a really good quality silver screen. Now the average home consumer is going to have to use the same screen for 2D and that is the big advantage for Dolby. Few people want to change their screen, and fewer want to use a silverscreen for 2D. Personally I think they might be wrong. I love my Vutec Silverstar, and am sure the new Silverstar 3D will work just fine for me for both 2 and 3D. But even I don't want to buy another screen.
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post #656 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 04:43 PM
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I am becoming more and more interested in making a passive 3D system. Please let me know if I got this right:
-2 Projectors (I am considering Optoma HD20 or any other suggestions for cheap projectors)
-1 HDMI splitter
-2 3DXL optoma (one for the left eye and one for the right eye)
-My PS3 to play 3D BR movies

BUT I don't have a silverscreen but have been reading about Dolby 3D and no need for a silverscreen. My understanding is that I need a filter for each projector, one for the Left eye and one for the Right eye. Please post a link to the filers and were I can buy glasses.
Are there certain projectors that work better or worse? I don't really know anything about the linear vs circular or if certain projectors cannot be paired with one or the other.
I want this to be a simple and cheap set up.
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post #657 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 05:04 PM
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If you want simple and cheap just go active. It really is astounding bang for the buck. Get an acer 5360 and one optima 3D-XL from Tru3D without the glasses. Get a samsung ir emitter and a few samsung compatible rechargable glasses from Ultimate3Dheaven. If you want to upgrade to passive later you can still use the 3D-XL for that.
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post #658 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

If you want simple and cheap just go active. It really is astounding bang for the buck. Get an acer 5360 and one optima 3D-XL from Tru3D without the glasses. Get a samsung ir emitter and a few samsung compatible rechargable glasses from Ultimate3Dheaven. If you want to upgrade to passive later you can still use the 3D-XL for that.

I actually have the JVC RS40 for 3D but I prefer passive 3D especially when there are a quite a few people over.
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post #659 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 05:27 PM
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Well, then, you might as well get a second RS40 like the op and start at post #1
A couple HD20's would be good, but the BenQ W1000 for the same price has more lumens and can be put back further. One issue with both (and any cheap dlp unit) though is no lens-shift. I really doubt it would be an issue to tilt them a tiny bit and use keystone correction. You may not even notice if you don't use it. For easy, linear polarized is the only way to go for now. http://www.berezin.com/3d/3dglasses.htm is where I got my linear filters and glasses (scroll down a bit). They have a crazy variety of stuff.
Oh, yeah, you need a silverscreen. I got the material from Harkness to put in my existing frame for $360 including mounting stuff, 3M Dual lock in my case.
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post #660 of 2269 Old 05-26-2011, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

Well, then, you might as well get a second RS40 like the op and start at post #1
A couple HD20's would be good, but the BenQ W1000 for the same price has more lumens and can be put back further. One issue with both (and any cheap dlp unit) though is no lens-shift. I really doubt it would be an issue to tilt them a tiny bit and use keystone correction. You may not even notice if you don't use it. For easy, linear polarized is the only way to go for now. http://www.berezin.com/3d/3dglasses.htm is where I got my linear filters and glasses (scroll down a bit). They have a crazy variety of stuff.
Oh, yeah, you need a silverscreen. I got the material from Harkness to put in my existing frame for $360 including mounting stuff, 3M Dual lock in my case.

Thanks for the info. What are the differences/ benefits of circular vs linear polarization? Do you notice ghosting or anything like that? Were did you buy your screen and did you mount it yourself and if so were did you buy the 3M stuff? Thanks.
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