The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 2269 Old 11-26-2011, 11:33 AM
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Sorry I didn't get time Friday, but here you are.
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post #992 of 2269 Old 11-26-2011, 11:34 AM
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post #993 of 2269 Old 11-29-2011, 10:29 AM
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Rob, can you tell me what you think about the images above? the only thing I have noticed is that when the glasses are horizontal they don't have the green or red tint they show when held at an angle, but without seeing all the angles as the glasses rotate I still don't know if there is linear polarization.
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post #994 of 2269 Old 11-29-2011, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

Rob, can you tell me what you think about the images above? the only thing I have noticed is that when the glasses are horizontal they don't have the green or red tint they show when held at an angle, but without seeing all the angles as the glasses rotate I still don't know if there is linear polarization.

Those pictures mean that R+B are polarized 90 degrees off of green. At the given angles, one lens is blocking R+B, hence only green is seen. The other lens is blocking G, so you see both red and blue (purple-ish). At a horizontal angle, both lenses are blocking appx 50% of all three colours- so you see the reduced light, but not for one specific colour.
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post #995 of 2269 Old 11-29-2011, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

Those pictures mean that R+B are polarized 90 degrees off of green. At the given angles, one lens is blocking R+B, hence only green is seen. The other lens is blocking G, so you see both red and blue (purple-ish). At a horizontal angle, both lenses are blocking appx 50% of all three colours- so you see the reduced light, but not for one specific colour.

Thanks, I was kinda thinking that but was hoping it wasn't true. Since this uses SXRD panels I am guessing that all SXRD are going to have green offset. I'm thinking D-ILA may be the only type that polarize all three at the same angle
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post #996 of 2269 Old 11-29-2011, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

Thanks, I was kinda thinking that but was hoping it wasn't true. Since this uses SXRD panels I am guessing that all SXRD are going to have green offset. I'm thinking D-ILA may be the only type that polarize all three at the same angle

I don't know if you've seen the list I started to compile at hometheaterforum
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/a/po...s-lcd-and-lcos or not, but I basically came to the same conclusion.

Which is odd because in the case of D-ILA or 3 LCD, the re-combination of the RGB at the trichroic prism should more or less be the same. Yet it seems that in the case of the LCDs, they put green's polarity off on its side so it can pass directly through the trichroic prism unlike R+B that reflect off of the dichroic mirrors in the prism.

So why is D-ILA able to get away with all three panels with the same polarization? I talked to some trichroic prism manufacturers and they told me that they could make a prism with or without requiring green to be offset, but that they were more expensive. At least, that's what I think they told me. There was something of a language barrier at play. My guess is that LCD is a common enough technology that they can use cheaper green panels that are polarized differently than R+B, and that's cheaper than using a non polarizing trichroic prism. However the LCoS chips used in D-ILA are less common- therefore more expensive to produce green only chips and therefore go for the more expensive prism instead.

Let me know if you find anything else out.

And don't forget to look into SPAR filters for use with R+B @0 and G@90 projectors.
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post #997 of 2269 Old 11-29-2011, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

Those pictures mean that R+B are polarized 90 degrees off of green. At the given angles, one lens is blocking R+B, hence only green is seen. The other lens is blocking G, so you see both red and blue (purple-ish). At a horizontal angle, both lenses are blocking appx 50% of all three colours- so you see the reduced light, but not for one specific colour.

This is true.
The shots were taken at the extreme's with the color shift being gradual from vertical to horizontal.
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post #998 of 2269 Old 11-29-2011, 02:27 PM
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I've read about the SPAR filters but if I switch from DLP I will be going with JVC. I'm really Infitec offers the new "E" filters at a more reasonable consumer price. It has been mentioned that they will have both commercial and consumer filters when they ship, If they are around $1000 I will be getting them.
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post #999 of 2269 Old 11-29-2011, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

I've read about the SPAR filters but if I switch from DLP I will be going with JVC. I'm really Infitec offers the new "E" filters at a more reasonable consumer price. It has been mentioned that they will have both commercial and consumer filters when they ship, If they are around $1000 I will be getting them.

First off, no offense:I follow this thread for a reason (since I like cutting edge and he idea of doing better 3D with passive being the goal.) BUT, I have to ask, if just the filters are around $1000, what is the point? I understand IR shutter glasses at ~$100 are prohibitively expensive for the local movieplex, but at home, how many pairs of glasses will you need? plus now that RF glasses like the Optoma/Monster/Bit Cauldron are even cheaper than that and more reliable (and adjustable), isn't there a law of diminishing returns here? I love the idea of passive (espeicallly Dolby, where I would not need to replace my glass rear projection screen built into the wall with a silver screen), but if just he filters are $1k, plus double the projectors and two 3D-XL's, I'd need an audience of 20+ people to justify the "savings" of not needing active glasses. For my 4-5 viewers, the HD33 and $60 RF glasses sure are tempting me more at this point....
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post #1000 of 2269 Old 11-29-2011, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mikemav View Post

First off, no offense:I follow this thread for a reason (since I like cutting edge and he idea of doing better 3D with passive being the goal.) BUT, I have to ask, if just the filters are around $1000, what is the point? I understand IR shutter glasses at ~$100 are prohibitively expensive for the local movieplex, but at home, how many pairs of glasses will you need? plus now that RF glasses like the Optoma/Monster/Bit Cauldron are even cheaper than that and more reliable (and adjustable), isn't there a law of diminishing returns here? I love the idea of passive (espeicallly Dolby, where I would not need to replace my glass rear projection screen built into the wall with a silver screen), but if just he filters are $1k, plus double the projectors and two 3D-XL's, I'd need an audience of 20+ people to justify the "savings" of not needing active glasses. For my 4-5 viewers, the HD33 and $60 RF glasses sure are tempting me more at this point....

the reason the "Ultimate" 3D tread is in the $3000+ board is just that, b/c it cost more money. I assure you that the people setting up dual projection systems know all about active shutter tech, I have a Acer 5360 and a samsung plasma that both do active 3D. Its not about the cost of the glasses, its is about the flicker and ghosting that comes along with it. Why don't you go ask Wolfgang why he has well over 100k invested in his dual Barco system with Infitec filters when there are $80,000 active 3D projectors that do "just fine".
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post #1001 of 2269 Old 11-30-2011, 04:16 AM
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the reason the "Ultimate" 3D tread is in the $3000+ board is just that, b/c it cost more money. I assure you that the people setting up dual projection systems know all about active shutter tech, I have a Acer 5360 and a samsung plasma that both do active 3D. Its not about the cost of the glasses, its is about the flicker and ghosting that comes along with it. Why don't you go ask Wolfgang why he has well over 100k invested in his dual Barco system with Infitec filters when there are $80,000 active 3D projectors that do "just fine".

Okay, but I have the Acer (and optoma) as well as LG passive tech, and I prefer the DLPs all day long now that RF tunable glasses are available. Zero ghosting or flicker if the Bit Cauldron software is adjusted properly for duty cycle. I was just saying active has gotten better becuase of this...
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post #1002 of 2269 Old 11-30-2011, 09:55 AM
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Okay, but I have the Acer (and optoma) as well as LG passive tech, and I prefer the DLPs all day long now that RF tunable glasses are available. Zero ghosting or flicker if the Bit Cauldron software is adjusted properly for duty cycle. I was just saying active has gotten better becuase of this...

The LG is still having to display L,R,L,R, unless you are comparing it to a true dual passive system you can't really say active is better with DLP. I would really like to see my W6000's set up beside a single W7000 then you could tell which is better. It is going to be much easier to have a super bowl party with the dual system though.
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post #1003 of 2269 Old 11-30-2011, 11:28 AM
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Active still can't do 1080p60. Plus I think anyone given the the choice, with no consideration of cost, would pick passive.
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post #1004 of 2269 Old 11-30-2011, 11:40 AM
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The lg is true passive. Each eye sees every other line of the display constantly, so half vertical resolution per eye.

I would seriously consider one for my living room. The one I saw came with like 12 pair of glasses.
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post #1005 of 2269 Old 11-30-2011, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

The lg is true passive. Each eye sees every other line of the display constantly, so half vertical resolution per eye.

I would seriously consider one for my living room. The one I saw came with like 12 pair of glasses.

How exactly does that work with the LG?
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post #1006 of 2269 Old 11-30-2011, 12:10 PM
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How exactly does that work with the LG?

The TV screen has a filter on it that alternates the circular polarity of each line of pixels.

Then the TV displays the left eye on the even lines and the right eye on the odd lines.

Each eye sees an "interlaced" picture with every other line being black.

You can use REAL-D glasses that you might have from the theatre. I have a bag of 20 of them.

I've seen it briefly in person and thought it looked quite good. Detractors will call it "540p per eye" but it certainly looks higher resolution than that. 540p is 1/4 the resolution of 1080p and this is, at worst, 1/2 the resolution of 1080p. But your eyes/brain might think it looks more like 1080p anyways.

It's what I would buy for my living room- if I was in the market.
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post #1007 of 2269 Old 11-30-2011, 12:19 PM
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guess i would have to see it myself, don't see how you can have a great image when half of the picture is black lines, or they should be black unless you have ghosting
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post #1008 of 2269 Old 11-30-2011, 12:41 PM
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They are black, and nasty up close, but from a distance it is more like early lcd's with large pixel gap. It just blends in. Hence only living room distance use.
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post #1009 of 2269 Old 11-30-2011, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

guess i would have to see it myself, don't see how you can have a great image when half of the picture is black lines, or they should be black unless you have ghosting

Here's a fun experiment. Look straight ahead at whatever is in front of you. Without turning your head, look to one side. Look at the edges of your vision and observe the uniformity of "brightness". Now close one eye and notice that you can't see as much as you were. Open that eye, close it again... Does the fact that only eye is seeing something make it half as bright? Is one eye seeing a picture whilst the other eye sees blackness?

The point is that what you see is not a mathmatical reduction of what your two eyes see. Your brain compensates for a lot of stuff.

In my limited experience, the LG Passive tech did not look dim, or interlaced, or half black, etc. It looked like a full 1080p 3D picture to me.

Kind of a neat effect is that since the screen has a polarizing filter on it all of the time, the 3D glasses don't really dim the picture much. The light loss due to polarizing the light doesn't change (much) when you put the glasses on, unlike active shutters. All of the light not coming from the TV is dimmed, however, so it makes the TV look extra bright.
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post #1010 of 2269 Old 11-30-2011, 02:06 PM
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Dear Mr. McGuire,

welcome to the Infitec Global Sales GmbH. Thank you very much for the
interest in our product. The listprice for a consumer 1-Chip DLP unit
have temporarily the same price as a professional 1-chip DLP unit. The
list price of the filters is 3.000,00 EUR. We prepare solutions with
very small consumer projectors in the next time. Please contact us again
Q1/Q2 2012. Thank you very much. Please give us feedback

Kind Regards,
Manfred Reich

Crossing my fingering hoping the new filters will be reasonable, if they plan to market them for home use and specify that they cannot be used for commercial solutions I would think the price would drop a good bit.
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post #1011 of 2269 Old 12-01-2011, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post


The TV screen has a filter on it that alternates the circular polarity of each line of pixels.

Then the TV displays the left eye on the even lines and the right eye on the odd lines.

Each eye sees an "interlaced" picture with every other line being black.

You can use REAL-D glasses that you might have from the theatre. I have a bag of 20 of them.

I've seen it briefly in person and thought it looked quite good. Detractors will call it "540p per eye" but it certainly looks higher resolution than that. 540p is 1/4 the resolution of 1080p and this is, at worst, 1/2 the resolution of 1080p. But your eyes/brain might think it looks more like 1080p anyways.

It's what I would buy for my living room- if I was in the market.

Yep. You are right. In order for this tech to work, it really is just displaying 540p. However, the 4k screens they showed at CES last year would be capable of showing roughly 1080p material but it would be stretched over a 4k resolution.


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post #1012 of 2269 Old 12-02-2011, 08:52 AM
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Yep. You are right. In order for this tech to work, it really is just displaying 540p. However, the 4k screens they showed at CES last year would be capable of showing roughly 1080p material but it would be stretched over a 4k resolution.

I take the same exception in this post that I took in my last post to saying that it's 540p. It's certainly double the horizontal resolution of 540p. And, due to the way the brain interprets what the eyes are seeing, it looks higher resolution than that.

And what matters most? What it is, or what it looks like?

It might not look like full 1080p, but it (at 1,036,800 pixels per eye) is certainly higher resolution than 540p (518,600 pixles) and, at worst, it's just higher than 720p (921,600 pixels). At best, it appears to be very close to (if not quite as good as) 1080p, because the eyes/brain are not seeing it as 1,036,800 pixles per eye, but much more like 2,073,600 pixels per "vision".

All that being said, I was in Best Buy yesterday and they had the 48" LG on display. It was showing a sizzle reel consisting of some shots from Toy Story 3 among others. There was horrendous ghosting and motion artifacts galore. Edges of objects that had a large depth delta looked terrible. I'm set to blame the source material (probably a low resolution, heavily compressed video) because I don't remember Tron Legacy looking anything like that when I watched 10 minutes of that a couple months ago. But maybe I wasn't looking hard enough then.

One last comment since this is patently the wrong thread for this discussion, but if you were to watch T/B or O/U 50% material on it, you wouldn't be losing any resolution at all. Sadly most stuff is SBS 50%, which means you've already lost half of the horizontal resolution to the SBS format, and then a possible other half to the polarized filter on the screen...
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post #1013 of 2269 Old 12-12-2011, 04:55 PM
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Wolfgang claims the new "E" filters from infitec transmit about 40% more light and while color correction can help it isn't required. Still no word on pricing but that should be coming soon, I'm guessing even the consumer filters will be around $2000. This may be a way to keep the high light output Rob is getting with JVC and halfwave plates with the extra benefit of better extinction ratios.
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post #1014 of 2269 Old 12-13-2011, 07:10 AM
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Quick question:

I own a JVC RS1 and RS25. Can I do passive 3D with them or do I need 2x RS1 or 2x RS25?
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post #1015 of 2269 Old 12-13-2011, 01:47 PM
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Quick question:

I own a JVC RS1 and RS25. Can I do passive 3D with them or do I need 2x RS1 or 2x RS25?

you can, If one projector is brighter than the other you will want to correct that but otherwise you should be fine
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post #1016 of 2269 Old 12-13-2011, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone here know how to get hold of a set of Panavision filters? Seems to be a much better implementation than Infitec. With more slices of the color for each eye, it should have less of the color issues of Infitec.

I called their sales office the other day and they sent me pricing for a commercial theater. Not very useful.

Ahh... F1 in full HD 3D with
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Anyone here know how to get hold of a set of Panavision filters? Seems to be a much better implementation than Infitec. With more slices of the color for each eye, it should have less of the color issues of Infitec.

I called their sales office the other day and they sent me pricing for a commercial theater. Not very useful.

ha, how much were they wanting?
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post #1018 of 2269 Old 12-13-2011, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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ha, how much were they wanting?

Whatever it was, I shelved it under "not worth remebering"

But it was either in the 20's or 40's (as in thousands)

Certainly a good system, on the surface, but they are going after commercial opportunites, quite naturally.

I think I saw some press that Sony signed a deal with them for a new set of projectors, but I suspect that was for commercial uses also.

Still, time will tell - hope to see some of this gear "in the wild" before my new house is ready in a couple of years.

Also, is JVC planning on a true 4K home projector in 2012?

Ahh... F1 in full HD 3D with
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post #1019 of 2269 Old 12-14-2011, 08:32 AM
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Anyone here know how to get hold of a set of Panavision filters?

Crow bar and a ski mask?
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post #1020 of 2269 Old 12-14-2011, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
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Whatever it was, I shelved it under "not worth remebering"

But it was either in the 20's or 40's (as in thousands)

Certainly a good system, on the surface, but they are going after commercial opportunites, quite naturally.

I think I saw some press that Sony signed a deal with them for a new set of projectors, but I suspect that was for commercial uses also.

Still, time will tell - hope to see some of this gear "in the wild" before my new house is ready in a couple of years.

Also, is JVC planning on a true 4K home projector in 2012?

I've been following this thread with great interest for the last month (Took me awhile to get through all of it). Now that a lot of people have done a lot of futzing around with various projectors, lenses, screens, etc. I have a question.

I don't want to deal with a silver screen so I THINK the Dolby Infitec solution is the most likely option. What projectors/other devices would people recommend? I have a 120" 1.1 gain screen and currently have a Sanyo PLV Z2000 (which I like, but it isn't really that bright....manufacturer says "1200 lumens" ). If it would work, I'd buy another used one, but think I might need more light. I understand I'd need the 2 Optoma 3DXLs (about $600), a 1.4 HDMI splitter, and the filters/glasses. My overall price range is variable, but would like to get the projectors (1080p) for about 3K (or as inexpensively as possible). What do the infitec filters run? I think someone wrote about $320? Anything else I'm missing or other concerns I should have??? Any news on the new one box solution which will do the work of the 2 Optomas)?

Thanks for starting such an interesting thread. I've learned more from reading this than I ever imagined.

Home Theater: Acer H9500BD 3D Projector, 120" Elite Screen, Sony BDP-S780 3D Blu-Ray Player, Logitech Z-5500 5.1 Surround

Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" 3D DLP, Sony BDP-S5100 3D Blu-Ray Player, Harmon Kardon AVR 5.1, Polk Audio 5.1 Surround
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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