The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 2269 Old 10-09-2010, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omicronian View Post

Of course I can't do this test with my projector (sxrd), but I tried it with an LCD monitor which is linear polarized, and I need a 45 degrees angle to get the most light output, I don't know if it's the monitor that is at 45 degrees or the realD glasses. Please tell me if you test it with a JVC !

I'll definitely test this, since I'm committed to the course. Will let you know as soon as the projectors are in place.
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post #92 of 2269 Old 10-10-2010, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

O.K. for those who have not already seen this thread - here it is, the most definitive dual projector passive setup thread I've seen. This forum member, who is using this system, supports Mark Haflich's claim that 2 projectors for 3D is considerably brighter than any single projector system. He's using 2 Epson LCD pjs with passive filters so apparently it does work! See posts 1305 and 1307 (Blackshark)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post19099091

OK - I checked it out.

He got his filter lenses from SilverFabric also, however he is using Linear Polarised. Given that the JVCs are already polarised, I personally feel that circular polarisation is more eficient and better suited to the application here. Plus, personally, I like to be able to move my head around without having crosstalk issues that Linear suffers.

It's definitely an interesting application tho, and he did it fairly inexpensively - however, his source is a computer, as he does not have a box to split any other 3D sources into the two projectors - he may well benefit from the Optoma box I'm looking at here.

It'll be interesting to see how my plan comes together. I do learn from my mistakes, but I'm hoping I won't be making any here - but I'm sure I will learn SOMETHINg from my first go-around on this!
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post #93 of 2269 Old 10-10-2010, 05:36 PM
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Hi
I wrote the post quoted above.
I would like to add that Silverfabric also sells specialized polarising filters designed to take advantage of the complex natural polarisation of LCD projectors.
I was initially going to use them but the higher price would have made me go over-budget. My target was 4000€ for the entire system so I had to fall back on standard linear filters.
Also the LCD optimized filters were originally advertised as >75% brightness were modified to only show >65% brightness, the brightness difference suddenly did not seemed to be worth the price difference for my tight budget, however I do not believe these filters would have solved the colour shift issue which I believe comes from the lens which modifies polarisation.

I can also confirm the nature of circular polarisers, they are not perfectly circular for all colours. On my Zalman monitor (line interleaved circular polarised) when I tilt the glasses there is a noticeable colour shift, it looks like the colour temperature was changed to a cooler temperature, and ghosting areas take a strong purple tint.

If you intend the perfect 3D system to go the polarised way, you definitely need a huge leap ahead in silver-screen technology for the home, and especially the grain caused by the aluminium flakes which makes these screens absolute crap in 2D at typical home viewing distances (3~5 metre).

A curved screen will also be mandatory to counteract the hot-spotting caused by the 2.0~3.0 screen gain. A flat screen might look ok for me, but it's definitely not good enough for the perfect 3D system.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #94 of 2269 Old 10-10-2010, 07:10 PM
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BlackShark,

Have you thought about trying to setup with Dolby Digital Cinema 3D glasses so you can use a normal screen?

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #95 of 2269 Old 10-10-2010, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

Hi
I wrote the post quoted above.
I would like to add that Silverfabric also sells specialized polarising filters designed to take advantage of the complex natural polarisation of LCD projectors.
I was initially going to use them but the higher price would have made me go over-budget. My target was 4000€ for the entire system so I had to fall back on standard linear filters.
Also the LCD optimized filters were originally advertised as >75% brightness were modified to only show >65% brightness, the brightness difference suddenly did not seemed to be worth the price difference for my tight budget, however I do not believe these filters would have solved the colour shift issue which I believe comes from the lens which modifies polarisation.

I can also confirm the nature of circular polarisers, they are not perfectly circular for all colours. On my Zalman monitor (line interleaved circular polarised) when I tilt the glasses there is a noticeable colour shift, it looks like the colour temperature was changed to a cooler temperature, and ghosting areas take a strong purple tint.

If you intend the perfect 3D system to go the polarised way, you definitely need a huge leap ahead in silver-screen technology for the home, and especially the grain caused by the aluminium flakes which makes these screens absolute crap in 2D at typical home viewing distances (3~5 metre).

A curved screen will also be mandatory to counteract the hot-spotting caused by the 2.0~3.0 screen gain. A flat screen might look ok for me, but it's definitely not good enough for the perfect 3D system.

Thanks Blackshark - that was definitely a very good project. You definitely were on the right track by using 2 projectors, I believe.

I'm going a slightly different direction by using circular filters, instead of linear. But that is because the JVCs already have all colors polarised at the same angle - so the circular can start with that angle, then flip in left or right. The new filters are close to 80%.

What I'm most worried about is the screen - i don't know what the light scatter is on the Black Diamond - and this will likely affect the extinction, and possible ghosting.

...but there's only one way to find out!

By the way - You should check out the Optoma 3D-XL box - it will let you feed other 3D signals from satelite and Bluray, to your projectors.

I'll be updating how this works out for me when I get the new projectors in.
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post #96 of 2269 Old 10-11-2010, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

BlackShark,

Have you thought about trying to setup with Dolby Digital Cinema 3D glasses so you can use a normal screen?

--Darin

You're not the first person to suggest a Dolby/Infitec setup to avoid using a silverscreen. It might work but I probably won't try that for a while due to the colour correction issues which I believe are more severe than the ones I currently have.
I won't upgrade the 3D system before about a year, when I'll move to a new home, so for now, I'll just stick to my current polarised setup and i'll see how things have evolved next year. Anything could happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

What I'm most worried about is the screen - i don't know what the light scatter is on the Black Diamond - and this will likely affect the extinction, and possible ghosting.

...but there's only one way to find out!

I read a press release from SI claiming the Blackdiamond was suitable for polarised projection. They did not mention the extinction ratio though so I do not know if it's better than traditional silver-screens but I think it's a good news that silver is not the only way to maintain polarisation.
Anyways you have my Crosstalk test screenshots in my thread above you'll be able to compare with what you get on your Blackdiamond.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #97 of 2269 Old 10-11-2010, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

I read a press release from SI claiming the Blackdiamond was suitable for polarised projection. They did not mention the extinction ratio though so I do not know if it's better than traditional silver-screens but I think it's a good news that silver is not the only way to maintain polarisation.
Anyways you have my Crosstalk test screenshots in my thread above you'll be able to compare with what you get on your Blackdiamond.

I've been emailing them about the polarisation ratio, but so far the only emails I've gotten back ar "Yes! It works! Yay!" kind of stuff

Hopefully I'll get something more specific - but either way I'll be able to see it in person in the next month or so anyway.

Yes - those test patterns will be very helpful - also saw some interesting ones from one of the magazines that tested some 3D projectors - cant remember which at moment. Principle is to show dark on light, and light on dark situations across both views, to see any crosstalk.
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post #98 of 2269 Old 10-11-2010, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Does anyonoe know of any companies that make a frame or rack to mount the two projectors in, so that they can be locked in place and inidividually tweaked for positioning?
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post #99 of 2269 Old 10-11-2010, 07:07 PM
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I might be crazy, but I think there's a way to get twice the light output of shutter glasses with the JVC.

- An LCD shutter absolutely needs to polarize the light, therefore it starts with only 45% of the light if that light is not polarized. Then there's an LCD glass that is 95% when fully open. The sum is 43%.
- If I could find a screen which keeps most of the light polarization without being a silver screen (some angular reflective screens keep a good part of the polarizarion), It would nearly double the brightness.
- The JVC with it's aligned linear polarized source would have 85% instead of 43% fully open.
- I would get up to 440 lumens instead of 220, with a single projector, no ghosting, and no silver screen artifacts.

I need to find out if the JVC shutter glasses polarization is aligned with the projector's polarization. Maybe they thought about it, I hope they did. That would be a very big deal.
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post #100 of 2269 Old 10-12-2010, 04:55 AM
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I'm sorry, but I'm absolutly lost in this "3D WORLD" I have a samsung BD-C6900 with a starter kit (2 pair of glasses active lenses) can I use it, with the JVC RS 40 3 FP or there's no compatilbility. And If the answer is not what those SAMSUNG glasses are made for???
SOrry again for such stupid question, and thanks
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post #101 of 2269 Old 10-12-2010, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omicronian View Post

I might be crazy, but I think there's a way to get twice the light output of shutter glasses with the JVC.

- An LCD shutter absolutely needs to polarize the light, therefore it starts with only 45% of the light if that light is not polarized. Then there's an LCD glass that is 95% when fully open. The sum is 43%.
- If I could find a screen which keeps most of the light polarization without being a silver screen (some angular reflective screens keep a good part of the polarizarion), It would nearly double the brightness.
- The JVC with it's aligned linear polarized source would have 85% instead of 43% fully open.
- I would get up to 440 lumens instead of 220, with a single projector, no ghosting, and no silver screen artifacts.

I need to find out if the JVC shutter glasses polarization is aligned with the projector's polarization. Maybe they thought about it, I hope they did. That would be a very big deal.

In theory it should work but then the question is : how good is this projector with presenting frame alternate stereo3D ?
These JVC projectors are the LCoS/D-ILA type right ? I know LCoS are faster than standard LCD but I don't know how much, the technology is still based around liquid crystals so if they're not fast enough, they'll ghost like LCD TVs. That's something you do not want on such expensive setups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian27 View Post

I'm sorry, but I'm absolutly lost in this "3D WORLD" I have a samsung BD-C6900 with a starter kit (2 pair of glasses active lenses) can I use it, with the JVC RS 40 3 FP or there's no compatilbility. And If the answer is not what those SAMSUNG glasses are made for???
SOrry again for such stupid question, and thanks

The Samsung glasses are designed to work exclusively on Samsung 3DTVs, they do not work on any other brand.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #102 of 2269 Old 10-12-2010, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

In theory it should work but then the question is : how good is this projector with presenting frame alternate stereo3D ?
These JVC projectors are the LCoS/D-ILA type right ? I know LCoS are faster than standard LCD but I don't know how much, the technology is still based around liquid crystals so if they're not fast enough, they'll ghost like LCD TVs. That's something you do not want on such expensive setups.

Yes I agree, but the shutters can be kept both off during the LCOS transition state, so it's up to the manufacturers to decide if they keep them off long enough to remove ghosting completely. The compromise of course is that there will be less brightness. Also the extinction ratio of shutter glasses is (in theory) much better than a silver screen.

The old sxrd spec was 2.5ms average, I don't know about JVC. But what's interesting is that turning the pixels black is a lot faster than moving between shades of grey, and it's the speed at which they can be turned off which relates to ghosting. At least that's what happens with LCD, I don't know about lcos.
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post #103 of 2269 Old 10-14-2010, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omicronian View Post

I need to find out if the JVC shutter glasses polarization is aligned with the projector's polarization. Maybe they thought about it, I hope they did. That would be a very big deal.

The standard polarising sunglasses I used to test are vertically polarised, and blocked the most light when viewing at the normally worn horizontal position.

Should mean that the projectors tested are horizontally polarised.
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post #104 of 2269 Old 10-14-2010, 11:17 AM
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post #105 of 2269 Old 10-14-2010, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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[quote=BlackShark;19316875]Hi
I wrote the post quoted above.
I would like to add that Silverfabric also sells specialized polarising filters designed to take advantage of the complex natural polarisation of LCD projectors.[quote]Yes, SilverFabric was one of the sources I found, and probably going to be where I order form.

Quote:


I was initially going to use them but the higher price would have made me go over-budget. My target was 4000€ for the entire system so I had to fall back on standard linear filters.

Looks right now that at the current Euro exchange rate, I'll pay about $711 for the pair of filters. Not cheap, but the system will be closer to what RealD employs.

Quote:


Also the LCD optimized filters were originally advertised as >75% brightness were modified to only show >65% brightness, the brightness difference suddenly did not seemed to be worth the price difference for my tight budget, however I do not believe these filters would have solved the colour shift issue which I believe comes from the lens which modifies polarisation.

That may be down to one of the colors on your source being polarised at a different angle. Fairly common on LCD units, and also on an SXRD unit or two. Re: the brightness, the two different lens options I've spec'd - when used with LCoS polarised at one angle - range from 75% to >80%... I'm hopeful, but of course, there's no way to find out until I actually install them.

Quote:


If you intend the perfect 3D system to go the polarised way, you definitely need a huge leap ahead in silver-screen technology for the home, and especially the grain caused by the aluminium flakes which makes these screens absolute crap in 2D at typical home viewing distances (3~5 metre).

Maybe... but since I have a fairly expensive BDII which is supposed to preserve the polarisation, I'll start with that. I don't expect it to be prefect, but I'll definitely post results and photos here to show the extinction.
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post #106 of 2269 Old 10-14-2010, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

http://www.optomaeurope.com/projecto...nment&PC=3D-XL

Native resolution 1280x720

Awesome - good to see it's up on their site now.

Odd that they don't show a two-projector configuration in their exmaple diagrams.

Re: the resolution, their specs tab says just what they said at the show, that each box can handle 1080p output ONLY when choosing Left OR Right as the output.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Optoma Specs View Post

Maximum Resolution - Full HD 1080p (L/R view selectable)

This is because although the INPUT is HDMI 1.4, and can support the "frame packed" 1080p used by 3D Bluray, the OUTPUT of each box is only HDMI 1.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Optoma Specs View Post

I/O Connectors
Inputs: 2x HDMI 1.4a (HDCP) - audio supported
Outputs: 1x HDMI 1.3 (HDCP) - audio supported, 3-PIN mini DIN (VESA Sync)

So, for a two-projector config at 1080p, you will need two boxes.
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post #107 of 2269 Old 10-14-2010, 04:36 PM
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I'm not sure about this feature of the Optoma converter box. This box is designed to convert hdmi1.4 signals into frame sequential 720p 120Hz signals, required by their DLP-link projectors.

This "1080p L R" switch on the rear is intriguing indeed.

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My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #108 of 2269 Old 10-14-2010, 04:40 PM
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How do you take a single HDMI 1.4 output from your receiver and feed it to two separate optoma boxes, while still respecting the source-to-destination HDCP encryption ?
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post #109 of 2269 Old 10-14-2010, 09:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

I'm not sure about this feature of the Optoma converter box. This box is designed to convert hdmi1.4 signals into frame sequential 720p 120Hz signals, required by their DLP-link projectors.

This "1080p L R" switch on the rear is intriguing indeed.

Yes - I discussed it at length personally with the techies at their booth at CEDIA - very certain about this. The only thing not confirmed yet is the ability to output that 1080p left or right view at 24p - currently the unit only outputs 60p, but they are looking to potentially add 24p before release.

Quote:
Originally Posted by omicronian View Post

How do you take a single HDMI 1.4 output from your receiver and feed it to two separate optoma boxes, while still respecting the source-to-destination HDCP encryption ?

Another $10,000 question. Basically they told me a regular HDMI splitter would do, but I haven't spec'd one for this project yet.
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post #110 of 2269 Old 10-18-2010, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omicronian View Post

How do you take a single HDMI 1.4 output from your receiver and feed it to two separate optoma boxes, while still respecting the source-to-destination HDCP encryption ?

I was told by the Optoma people at the show that a simple HDMI splitter/switch can achieve this. I'm assuming this would have to be an HDMI 1.4 splitter.

I am passively looking to locate options for this part of the "build", as it will be a requirement to complete my system. I say "passively" because I have not yet sat down and done a web search for these paticular parts yet.


EDIT: Worst case - I can use the two HDMI outputs on my forthcoming Denon 4311CI to feed the two different projectors.

So I'm not as worried about this particular component yet.
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post #111 of 2269 Old 10-18-2010, 09:42 AM
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Did you have a chance to ponder about the screen ?
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post #112 of 2269 Old 10-18-2010, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omicronian View Post

Did you have a chance to ponder about the screen ?

I'll definitely be using the Black Diamond II first. Since I already own it, seems the most logical choice

However, I'll also be getting samples of other reflective screens to try.

If I notice ghosting issues in my setup, I'll place these samples over the sections with the worst examples, to see how much of that issue is due to the screen, or to the lenses or glasses.

I am also going to get 5 or 6 different makes of circular polarised glasses to see how much of a difference there is between them.

I have also ordered TWO different sets of the circular polarising projector lenses, and may order a THIRD. Once I pick the winning combination, I'll auction off the others on eBay to cut my losses.

Trust me, once I have finished with my testing, I hope to be able to sincerely say I've made the best of what I started with.

Also, I will be ordering a set of the JVC emitter/glasses kit as well, for testing.
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post #113 of 2269 Old 10-18-2010, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Yes - I discussed it at length personally with the techies at their booth at CEDIA - very certain about this. The only thing not confirmed yet is the ability to output that 1080p left or right view at 24p - currently the unit only outputs 60p, but they are looking to potentially add 24p before release.

Another $10,000 question. Basically they told me a regular HDMI splitter would do, but I haven't spec'd one for this project yet.

Why not check out the new Oppo 3D BD player. Apparently it will have 2 HDMI outs that allow video out from both (or supposedly can be configured that way) and this might kill two birds with one stone.
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post #114 of 2269 Old 10-18-2010, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Why not check out the new Oppo 3D BD player. Apparently it will have 2 HDMI outs that allow video out from both (or supposedly can be configured that way) and this might kill two birds with one stone.

Gotta pass the signal thru the AVR first to get the audio.

If I use one of the Oppo HDMI outs for the audio, then I'm still left with one output for the PJs, so I'll still need the splitter.

However, if I feed the output to the 4311CI first, then I can use both HDMI outs from the AVR for the Optoma boxes, the then PJs.

Ideally, I'll find a splitter soon, as I want one of those outputs for the Panny plasma.
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post #115 of 2269 Old 10-23-2010, 12:17 PM
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Hi All,

So I took my wife to compare the 3d tv sets available at the store and hands down, she loved the Panasonic plasma the most vs the Sony/Samsung. Only reason why she's even giving me the green light in buying again is cuz of the 3d feature.

So let me ask any of you what your opinion is since I am torn between getting an RS40 and a ~50" panasonic 3d plasma. Of course I would love a huge picture but if there's no chance the RS40 can produce as good a 3d picture as the Panny, then I don't know if that'd be the route for me.

I know the RS40 hasn't been released but maybe someone who actually saw the 3d in action can compare? Any input would be greatly appreciated since you guys apparently are the experts in this matter.

Thanks!
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post #116 of 2269 Old 10-23-2010, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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It's impossible to make a final judgement until the production units are released to the market, so it wouldn't be fair to compare production Pannys in the store to the engineering sample at CEDIA.

However, I was there. And while the PQ on the engineering sample RS40 at the show was gorgeous, there was noticeable flicker in 3D mode which you won't find on the Panasonic.

I stress again that this could well be rectified by the time the units ship, so you should really wait to see the shipping units for yourself before deciding.
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post #117 of 2269 Old 10-26-2010, 03:29 AM
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Hi every one,

Check out the blog of projector reviews. Art seems to have received an Optoma box for testing testing!

Interestingly the box is not called 3D-XL but XP8000.

Cheers
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post #118 of 2269 Old 10-26-2010, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikotttin View Post

Hi every one,

Check out the blog of projector reviews. Art seems to have received an Optoma box for testing testing!

Interestingly the box is not called 3D-XL but XP8000.

Cheers

Great news!!

But I have searched all over and cannot find the thread Can you post a link here?
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post #119 of 2269 Old 10-26-2010, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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We have a potential snag on the Polarizing lense kit for this project.

Was just ordering the lenses when the supplier's engineer came back with this:

Quote:


According to the information that I have the JVC DLA-HD990BE is circularly polarized, but this must be verified. If this is the case, your LCoS filters are not suitable. They will work, but the transmission will be low (about 46%). Once the polarization is verified, I can make filters for this projector.
The Sony VPL VW85 is based on Sony's SXRD technology. In this technology the polarization is also circular, but the green is orthogonal to the blue and red (cross-polarization). For high transmission this needs special SPAR filters.

SO, I've had to hold off on the order until this factor is confirmed or disproven. Ideally, the lense must be custom made for the orientation of the projector being used, in order to have the highest efficiency.

I'm sure we'll have this confusion worked out momentarily...
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post #120 of 2269 Old 10-26-2010, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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OK - another update on the polarization...

Quote:


According to my information, most RS projectors are polarized uniformly (in the same direction) as (rdjam) confirmed. There are good chances that your LSAR filters will work with these projectors (maybe they will have to be rotated by 90 deg). Anyway, once the polarization is confirmed using the procedure outlined in the attached memo, I will be able to make for (rdjam) high-transmission filters at much lesser price than SPAR.
There is only one "problem": the filters may cause color distortions, like in the Canon. This I cannot know in advance. But in most cases this should not happen (it did not happen in the LCoS projectors that I tested).

In my previous tests, I tested the projector only for linear polarisation in its internal filters, assuming that there was no chance of it being circular polarized internally.

However, to be safe, I will be performing an extra test for circular polarisation (using regular RealD glasses) and sending the results to the manufacturer.

Once this is finished, I should have my lense kit in hand quite soon!
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