The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread - Page 57 - AVS Forum
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post #1681 of 2269 Old 05-04-2012, 11:29 AM
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Hdfury just release a box that can show only the right and left image, unfortunately it only has 1 hdmi out
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post #1682 of 2269 Old 05-04-2012, 11:49 AM
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Hi guys,

I m new to this thread and I have some questions.

- How is the 3D for a passive setup with the Omega 3D kit compared to eg. the Sony VW95? I know the ghosting will be very little (gone?) but how are the blacks, colours etc compared to the Sony (which does a pretty good job in this).
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post #1683 of 2269 Old 05-04-2012, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post

Can you play MKV file in any other player (WMP, MPC-HC, ...)?
Stereoscopic Player is quite intuitive, just a guess, but you are probably not doing anything wrong there...

SP can generally play any ripped format, however for best quality you might want to use MKV with two video streams: left one copied directly from blu-ray, right one reencoded with approximately same bitrate.

Any word on your 3d demuxer?
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post #1684 of 2269 Old 05-04-2012, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

Hdfury just release a box that can show only the right and left image, unfortunately it only has 1 hdmi out

It's like a lot of the other demultiplexer solutions out there, two are needed. The other bad news is they are $400US a pop so that's $800US to get a dual projector system up and going. The other thing is that they don't appear to have 1080p24 output, only 1080i60. The latter might not be a bad thing but the price is fairly prohibitive.

I'm waiting to see what the VNS G-301 has to offer when it comes out next month. From what I've heard, one unit is all it takes, and the price might be right (depending on who you talk to).
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post #1685 of 2269 Old 05-04-2012, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtishd View Post

Any word on your 3d demuxer?

We are just having meetings these days related to that... The demuxer is almost certainly to be released under a known brand name, I would guess, sometime during this year. Features are still being finalized (to support as much as possible, yet have competitive price).
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post #1686 of 2269 Old 05-04-2012, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ojuicy View Post

could someone post the link to the 3d test images for aligning the projectors? I am at at friends trying to test his projectors with the omega kit I just got, but I forgot to bring the CD with all the test images thanks

may be a little late on posting this. i know there are posts on this site that have the test pattern but here is one link in this blog that has it as well as some other patterns.

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8866

on this subject i have tried the numbered pattern i found on this site being used to test ghosting on flat screens. it has numbers 1-80 80 being brightest. i cant see any of the opposite eye on tests with my filters but i seesome with the flat screens talking about seeing 15? any of you with the dual passive systems try this out. my filters or not. just interested

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post #1687 of 2269 Old 05-05-2012, 03:14 PM
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attached are some test screens for L&R stereoscopic
LL
LL
LL
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post #1688 of 2269 Old 05-07-2012, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

I know this thread has turned mostly toward the Omega 3D solution, but I have been keeping up with the 3D blog and found it interesting that the newer Epson projectors now have uniform internal polarization...

http://www.projectorreviews.com/proj...on-part-5.html

Would anyone be willing to test their new LCD or SXRD projectors to confirm this? I know a few people have dual AR100U and I would love to know if those also have uniform polarization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

I have a 3010. I'll check it later this week.

3010 is definitely unified polarity. However, my "boosted from Captain EO in 1987" linear glasses seem to block about 50%* or so of the light coming from the PJ at the max angle. At the min angle, I'd say about 10-15%*. For clarity's sake- I didn't get the magenta tint at one angle and green tint at the other angle effect that one gets from the R+B@0 + G@90 projectors.

*I really shouldn't put percentages here. I have no idea how much it blocked, really. But that there was a very watchable dim image viewable with the glasses "blocking" the image. Of course, a second pair of glasses on my face might have solved that problem- if I had a silver screen.
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post #1689 of 2269 Old 05-08-2012, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

3010 is definitely unified polarity. However, my "boosted from Captain EO in 1987" linear glasses seem to block about 50%* or so of the light coming from the PJ at the max angle. At the min angle, I'd say about 10-15%*. For clarity's sake- I didn't get the magenta tint at one angle and green tint at the other angle effect that one gets from the R+B@0 + G@90 projectors.

*I really shouldn't put percentages here. I have no idea how much it blocked, really. But that there was a very watchable dim image viewable with the glasses "blocking" the image. Of course, a second pair of glasses on my face might have solved that problem- if I had a silver screen.

Even with it looking like there is a watchable image with the opposite eye so to speak its interesting how much crosstalk or i should say signal to noise that can create 3D. in my testing levels of 50:1 to 25:1 create a "watchable" 3d image, not ideal but like levels of contrast numbers are over stated a lot.
the omega / panavision system has a native 1000:1 s/n extiction on axis but this is not what one sees, its limited by light scatter to around 200-300:1 on axis with a white screen, by the realities of this scatter effect.
off axis is another thing. there is usually effects angles have on polarizers and optical filters that cause a loss of extiction.
in testing circular polarization the numbers are still decent on an ideal screen but are closer to 80:1 on axis with a good silver screen, still pretty good for 3d viewing. in poor setups ive seen s/n of 20:1 on axis with the use of a less than good screen. ...

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post #1690 of 2269 Old 05-08-2012, 06:06 AM
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i would be interested in seeing how well different peoples 3d setups test. i saw this test pattern in another thread where the topic was only flat screens and people all listed the numbers they could see.

ive run this pattern with the stack i have. it is 2-infocus in104's projecting on ~140" white screen, the omega filters and projectors set on 50 for brightness in video mode ( not high brightness )
i cant see even the 80 from the opposite eye. i will try a smaller image, say 110-120" and see if it changes.
LL

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post #1691 of 2269 Old 05-08-2012, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

i would be interested in seeing how well different peoples 3d setups test. i saw this test pattern in another thread where the topic was only flat screens and people all listed the numbers they could see.

ive run this pattern with the stack i have. it is 2-infocus in104's projecting on ~140" white screen, the omega filters and projectors set on 50 for brightness in video mode ( not high brightness )
i cant see even the 80 from the opposite eye. i will try a smaller image, say 110-120" and see if it changes.

I just ran this testimage on my setup: panasonic pt-ar100u on 135" white screen.
Even with the projectors running in full dynamic brightess I can't see anything from "the wrong eye", not even the 80.
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post #1692 of 2269 Old 05-09-2012, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HenningHM View Post

I just ran this testimage on my setup: panasonic pt-ar100u on 135" white screen.
Even with the projectors running in full dynamic brightess I can't see anything from "the wrong eye", not even the 80.

That is great you have the same results. no ghosting at all even on bright mode. i was supprised the flat pannel displays with passive and active galsses are showing 15-20 in the opposite eye. that is a few orders of magnitude differance from projection 3D. i would love to hear some tests on circular polarization projection setups especially the all liniar units with a wave plate. i think that is a pretty good setup as well and will beat the lcd flat pannels.

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post #1693 of 2269 Old 05-09-2012, 07:52 AM
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When I had my projectors set up I did that test and had no Ghosting on any numbers.

It was 2 5000 lumens Sony Projectors.
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post #1694 of 2269 Old 05-09-2012, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

When I had my projectors set up I did that test and had no Ghosting on any numbers.

It was 2 5000 lumens Sony Projectors.

Motorman, I know you said before that you could get more light at the sacrifice of extinction, maybe for these home theater filters you could adjust them some and find a sweet spot without noticeable ghosting and more transmittance.
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post #1695 of 2269 Old 05-09-2012, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

i was supprised the flat pannel displays with passive and active galsses are showing 15-20 in the opposite eye. that is a few orders of magnitude differance from projection 3D. i would love to hear some tests on circular polarization projection setups especially the all liniar units with a wave plate. i think that is a pretty good setup as well and will beat the lcd flat pannels.

I tried this crosstalk chart a while ago.
Polarised projection has a lot of crosstalk and highly depends on the quality of the silverscreen.
I do not have circular polarisers, I only have linear ones (I tried both standard polarising filters and the SPAR specialized filters for LCD projectors with cross polarisation of green primary colour).
The results I get are about 10~15 on that chart depending on how dark the room is.

With the Omega filters, there is no visible crosstalk, unless I look in the corner of the lens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

Motorman, I know you said before that you could get more light at the sacrifice of extinction, maybe for these home theatre filters you could adjust them some and find a sweet spot without noticeable ghosting and more transmittance.

I don't think it's a good idea, you just need a very small amount light of crosstalk to ruin a dark scene, I believe the light boost is so small that the trade-off wouldn't be worth the crosstalk.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #1696 of 2269 Old 05-10-2012, 09:12 AM
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I would agree its not worth trading extiction for a small amount of more throughput. it seems like the omega filters do pretty well the way they are.
over time and getting feedback from users with all the differetn setups some points are clear about the best setups for this filter set.
the throw ratio is best to be 1.7:1 or more, DLP units offer more spectral color balance but good LCoS systems probably perform better in contrast with the LCD version given enough lumens on your screen. internally mounting the filters done well gets around issues of color uniformity on short throw units.

i am supprised at the ammount of crosstalk on polarizing systems, i know the screen plays a big role.

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post #1697 of 2269 Old 05-10-2012, 09:15 AM
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here is an interesting image wrap / warp program only 39euros with a 30 day trial.
ive been looking for something just like this to build a curved screen for my 3d rig for gaming tests.

http://fly.elise-ng.net/index.php/immersivedisplaylite2

it has edge blending, geometry correction and color correction for each projector. it may even be able to correct edge color variation on my filters on short throw projectors.
i will be testing it toady

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post #1698 of 2269 Old 05-10-2012, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

here is an interesting image wrap / warp program only 39euros with a 30 day trial.
ive been looking for something just like this to build a curved screen for my 3d rig for gaming tests.

http://fly.elise-ng.net/index.php/immersivedisplaylite2

it has edge blending, geometry correction and color correction for each projector. it may even be able to correct edge color variation on my filters on short throw projectors.
i will be testing it toady

Upon trying this it seems buggy. sorry it seemed good but i cant get it to work right. ive found other image warping blending tools for free but not as nice as the first post. i may figure it out.

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post #1699 of 2269 Old 05-10-2012, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

So back on topic so to speak. for the ultimate 3D passive system aside from the filter tech what is the setup ?

1. HDMI demux box or PC / HTPC ?
2. a pair of 1080p native DLP or LCD, 3LCD, LcOS/D-ILA ?
3. Gain screen or not ? ( black diamond ? )

ive been thinking of getting either two optoma HD20 or Epson 8350's and fabricating a portable rack that includes either the PC of a demux box. I appreciate your ideas and thoughts .

Would not it just be easier to go with 3d projectors like hd33 so no need for
demuxlers just choose eather left or right from the projectors menus ? ?
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post #1700 of 2269 Old 05-10-2012, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by litmanen View Post

Would not it just be easier to go with 3d projectors like hd33 so no need for
demuxlers just choose eather left or right from the projectors menus ? ?

Didn't realize the HD33 had this option, any other 3D projectors that you can choose to display only the L or R image?
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post #1701 of 2269 Old 05-11-2012, 12:16 AM
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well for what i read the manuals of optoma i understand so, i could have mistaken but i got this oppinnion when reading the manuals. ...offcourse i just realized hd33 does not have lens shift so it´s no good for that.
anyways if you can watch 3d material with projector why could you not choose
left or right from the stream, is it not just firmware issue ?

+ optoma gamer model for example GT750-XL has 3d-xl builtin..allthouh it is only 720p
littledeath likes this.
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post #1702 of 2269 Old 05-11-2012, 02:22 PM
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Hello

I received the LCD special Omega filters. I'm a bit late, they were stalled at the French customs.
The new filters can't accomplish miracles, the left eye looks very good but the right eye is still a mess and I don't think it's fixable (the projector spectrum is bad to start with).
Right eye :
-red is very dark (not fixable)
-cyan is almost white (not fixable)
-magenta is violet (fixable)

However there is significant improvement over the original filters :
Out of the box with default projector settings, the white point is much closer between the eyes, it isn't an exact match but it's close enough to not notice the difference with the glasses on. It's good, because I don't have to kill my brightness with the global RGB gain settings of the projector.
An interesting fact : the coloration has been reversed between the left and right eye, the eye which white was purple is now slightly yellow, and the eye which was yellow is now slightly blue (with a very small purple tint). It's still not matching but the amount has been reduced dramatically.

The overall picture is much easier on the eyes than before, right out of the box.
This time I only had to use the selective RGBCMY hue settings on the projector to modify the hue of right eye RED (made it slightly orange to artificially make it brighter), and the hue of right eye MAGENTA (made it almost match the left eye).
I didn't change anything else (no other colour tweaks, no gamma modification, no complicated saturation tweaks). And I got a picture I'm quite happy with.
The picture looks very good, there are no shockingly wrong stuff happening like before, it only looks "slightly" wrong (because the right eye is seriously different from what it should be), so a perfectionist will find this unacceptable but overall I'm happy with the results. Considering my limited choices, I think that the crosstalk free picture is worth the trade-off.

The only real downside I can find is the lower brightness of the picture. I'm used to having almost the full lumen output of the projectors with the special SPAR filters, where I could use the eco lamp mode and the "natural" colour mode of the projectors. Now I have to use the "living room" or "dynamic" colour modes and normal lamp mode, the projector fans are louder and yet still don't really match the lumen output I previously had.
I dreamt of a perfect picture and looked forward to getting rid of the silverscreen, but neither happened : my original choice for LCD projectors doesn't allow a perfect picture and I have to keep the silverscreen (I need that 2.4 gain)... at least until I change the projectors or get a better high gain screen, which isn't going to happen any time soon.
My Epson projectors are rated at 1800Lumen (but projector review measured them at 1200 kumen), and my screen size is 106" diagonal. Considering the brightness I'm getting, I would consider this to be the minimum lumen output recommended for a 100" screen. The omega filters definitely require photon canons.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #1703 of 2269 Old 05-11-2012, 02:45 PM
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Can anyone confirm that the HD33 has the option to select L or R and can be used with a dual projector set up without a 3d demuxer?
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post #1704 of 2269 Old 05-11-2012, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

Hello

I received the LCD special Omega filters. I'm a bit late, they were stalled at the French customs.
The new filters can't accomplish miracles, the left eye looks very good but the right eye is still a mess and I don't think it's fixable (the projector spectrum is bad to start with).
Right eye :
-red is very dark (not fixable)
-cyan is almost white (not fixable)
-magenta is violet (fixable)

However there is significant improvement over the original filters :
Out of the box with default projector settings, the white point is much closer between the eyes, it isn't an exact match but it's close enough to not notice the difference with the glasses on. It's good, because I don't have to kill my brightness with the global RGB gain settings of the projector.
An interesting fact : the coloration has been reversed between the left and right eye, the eye which white was purple is now slightly yellow, and the eye which was yellow is now slightly blue (with a very small purple tint). It's still not matching but the amount has been reduced dramatically.

The overall picture is much easier on the eyes than before, right out of the box.
This time I only had to use the selective RGBCMY hue settings on the projector to modify the hue of right eye RED (made it slightly orange to artificially make it brighter), and the hue of right eye MAGENTA (made it almost match the left eye).
I didn't change anything else (no other colour tweaks, no gamma modification, no complicated saturation tweaks). And I got a picture I'm quite happy with.
The picture looks very good, there are no shockingly wrong stuff happening like before, it only looks "slightly" wrong (because the right eye is seriously different from what it should be), so a perfectionist will find this unacceptable but overall I'm happy with the results. Considering my limited choices, I think that the crosstalk free picture is worth the trade-off.

The only real downside I can find is the lower brightness of the picture. I'm used to having almost the full lumen output of the projectors with the special SPAR filters, where I could use the eco lamp mode and the "natural" colour mode of the projectors. Now I have to use the "living room" or "dynamic" colour modes and normal lamp mode, the projector fans are louder and yet still don't really match the lumen output I previously had.
I dreamt of a perfect picture and looked forward to getting rid of the silverscreen, but neither happened : my original choice for LCD projectors doesn't allow a perfect picture and I have to keep the silverscreen (I need that 2.4 gain)... at least until I change the projectors or get a better high gain screen, which isn't going to happen any time soon.
My Epson projectors are rated at 1800Lumen (but projector review measured them at 1200 kumen), and my screen size is 106" diagonal. Considering the brightness I'm getting, I would consider this to be the minimum lumen output recommended for a 100" screen. The omega filters definitely require photon canons.

Im very glad the new filters helped. not perfect for every projector system and im learning as we adapt this to home based systems. two things stand out. throw ratio plays a role in color uniformity to the edge. ideal is 1.8:1 and up but it works well with 1.5:1, shorter throw is possible with internal mounting, internal is the ideal. DLP units with little notching in their spectrum work better at similar colors L-R but not perfect due to the UHP dropping off in the red.
i also had to adjust the red in both eyes to balance the reproduction of reds.
as far as lumens i agree, my optoma HD20 rig im putting together rated at 1700 lumens is not as bright as the infocus in104's rated at 2700 lumens. i think 120" is a good size for the HD20's but the infocus DLP's i run on a 177" diagonal 16:9 white screen and its very good with the filters.

the image is far better on the HD20s i have to say. i want to try a pair of JVC RS units when i can and make another demo rig.
our next step is to get some of the vns 501 hdmi demux units and build a all in one portable demo and offer them with internal filtering. when i do this i need to chose projector options, one aimed at home theater and one for gaming on a curved screen ( as the 501 offers warping ) 1080p 60hz is a goal for gaming and maybe the same rig will appeal to gaming, not sure.. thoughts ?? looks like it may be ~$3500-4k with an adjustable rack that includes the demux box. maybe even offer it minus the projectors?

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post #1705 of 2269 Old 05-11-2012, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtishd View Post

Can anyone confirm that the HD33 has the option to select L or R and can be used with a dual projector set up without a 3d demuxer?

I cant seem to find anything that really clears this up. it would be interesting.

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post #1706 of 2269 Old 05-11-2012, 08:35 PM
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To bad I didn't have the money to buy another jvc to match mine, This would be the killer set up.
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post #1707 of 2269 Old 05-12-2012, 04:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

I cant seem to find anything that really clears this up. it would be interesting.

In the HD33 manual (quick Google search/download from Optoma site), on pg 33 Display|3D menu, there are options under 3D-> 2D to display Left or Right frame.
But someone who owns one would be able to confirm it works.
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post #1708 of 2269 Old 05-12-2012, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoore2 View Post

In the HD33 manual (quick Google search/download from Optoma site), on pg 33 Display|3D menu, there are options under 3D-> 2D to display Left or Right frame.
But someone who owns one would be able to confirm it works.

The GT750 seems to have the same menus/options - pg 30 of its manual.
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post #1709 of 2269 Old 05-12-2012, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by mmoore2 View Post

In the HD33 manual (quick Google search/download from Optoma site), on pg 33 Display|3D menu, there are options under 3D-> 2D to display Left or Right frame.
But someone who owns one would be able to confirm it works.

yeah. that´s what i based my oppinnion too.

saddly there is no lens shift on hd33. does any know any cheap 3d projectors to
have lens shift ?
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post #1710 of 2269 Old 05-12-2012, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by litmanen View Post

yeah. that´s what i based my oppinnion too.

saddly there is no lens shift on hd33. does any know any cheap 3d projectors to
have lens shift ?

Why is lens shift an important factor? i would think throw ratio is more key to fit a system into a given space. you can tilt the projector and keystone correct to move the image around as well. ??

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