The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP > The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread
BlackShark's Avatar BlackShark 04:19 PM 01-18-2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

I did try them backwards but I can't remember the results. I'll try it again later this week. Thanks.

I got RealD glasses and tried it with my dual projector setup.

I do get the colour absorption you have on the pictures, however if I put the glasses at 45° angle (matching the position of my current linear filters at 45/135°). The colour goes back to neutral.

Two things to notice then :
-The quarter wave retarder in the circular polariser does not seem to reduce any brightness (at least to the naked eye), the circular polariser mounted backwards acts exactly like a simple linear polariser
-The circular polarised light is still affected by the initial polarisation angle differences that come out of the 3-LCD projector, the only thing that happens is that the colour polarisation angles switches from green/purple to blue/yellow : adding a circular filter before the linear polariser does not fix the small colour shifts in the corners of the image that I have.

3-LCD projectors do work with polarisers but have strict polarisation angles placement : the filters must be placed at the half angle between the primary colours in order to provide a colour neutral picture and there is a slight colour unbalance in the corners of the picture. The results are far from being bad, but it won't be the "ultimate" 3D projection system, only a very close contender if you don't have the money to spend on a higher end DLP or LCoS projector.

rdjam's Avatar rdjam 06:22 PM 01-18-2011
Well, I have now had more time to evaluate the RS40 on my main screen, together with the HD550 and it is a HUGE upgrade over the HD550.

I'm surprised how much of i difference I'm seeing.

The extra contrast ratio is clearly discernable, and the brightness.

Regarding the Frame Interpolation, is is definitely not perfect yet, still getting a bit caught up when detail enters the view from the sides or from behind something else in the scene. More "reverse" examination of new detail entering the image would improve it (tho at a minor cost of additional video delay when active).

However, the Frame Interplation is definitely an improvement over the HD550 and HD950. It trips up much less often, and with a smaller impact on the image, therefore being significantly less detectable.

As such, it will probably suit my purposes so as to run the Ultimate 3D setup using the frame interpolation at it's highest setting, as I was hoping.

It perhaps would have been best for the 3D dual projector setup if there was a high interpolation mode which also included "low" black frame insertion, so as not to double-flash the interpolated frames, but I'LL TAKE IT!

It's at least a noticeable improvement on the old one from last year.

So does JVC have more work to do on FI? Most definitely.. Especially if they are planning to release more advanced 3D projection. Flawless FI is most certainly a MUST for 3D projection.

So is the FI good enough for me now? It'll do - it's much improved over last years, although flaws can still be detected.
rdjam's Avatar rdjam 09:29 AM 01-19-2011
Round two of my pre-deployment testing begins tomorrow night, with checks of all the electronics and cabling.

I'll post findings as soon as I have finished, as with last week. Tomorrow night's testing will include the Optoma 3DXL boxes, as well as testing Denon 4311CI 3D operability, and the 3D HTPC with new NVidia GTS 450 half height card.

All being well (and err, assuming I have gotten a screen) the Ultimate 3D Home Theater will be fully operational next week!!
rdjam's Avatar rdjam 01:15 PM 01-20-2011
Ok, getting the units out in preparation for testing. Yes, you are correct - I never was one of the "tidy" unwrappers at Christmas!!
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rdjam's Avatar rdjam 01:19 PM 01-20-2011
Ok. There'll be a brief pause while I upgrade my HTPC to the NVidia 450 GTS and get the latest 3D software.
rdjam's Avatar rdjam 01:57 PM 01-20-2011
Ok - here's my li'l baby. Hmm, I forgot what a mess I left in there! Wee bit embarrassing

Since I playback from the disk or the network, there's a relatively small SDD to boot windows.

Note to self. Must get new fan for this Scythe cooler. Been making some noise lately (tho not as much as I suspect this GTS 450 will make!)
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rdjam's Avatar rdjam 02:00 PM 01-20-2011
Ok. Job done, card in, wires "tidied", HTPC reinstalled, booted successfully first time.

800 by 600 default res, time for drivers...
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rdjam's Avatar rdjam 02:18 PM 01-20-2011
Quick check at NVidia shows 266.58 as new version. Importantly, it includes HD Audio driver, as well as physix, 3D Vision etc.

Despite SSD takes a while to get rolling. Then confirmation, then reboot to my usual 1080p24 desktop. Yay!

Now the scary part.... Configuring 3D TV. I've read it's an optional purchase download. Time for another visit to NVidia.com.

Also, I may choose to hook up one of the Optoma 3DXL boxes at this stage, since I've heard about potential marital problems between NVidia and JVC's newest...
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rdjam's Avatar rdjam 02:27 PM 01-20-2011
But first, a quick check to ensure that my little blue friends look and sound as normal.

Yep, all good. Playback AA normal in 2d with bitstreaming audio.
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rdjam's Avatar rdjam 02:59 PM 01-20-2011
Spent a little too much time with the Blue ones.

Ok. So I hooked up the 3DXL between my AVR 4311 and the first RS40. Used the HDMI 1 input for the AVR.

For these starter tests I am using one 3DXL, to ensure functionality is maintained while testing with just one projector. Once all 3D setup work is done and playback is consistent, I will then connect the second box and projector.

I can always switch views left and right with the single projector while testing. I put the 3DXL into the chain at this early stage to avoid getting caught by any JVC/NVidia issues.

Figured since I am still in 2D I would just power up the 3DXL and see what happens.

I assumed it would just display as normal once it booted, and I assumed right. After a short few seconds boot, the 3DXL powered up with nice green lights and the desktop reappeared on the projector screen.

Truly plug and play. No fuss, no muss.

However, I forgot to take the HTPC out of 1080p24 before firing up. Whether due to that, or being disconnected for a minute, the display was now running at 720p.

No probs, a quick flick of the mouse and I set the desktop to 1080p60.

All good.

I am now ready to mess with NVidia's 3D software bits...
rdjam's Avatar rdjam 03:00 PM 01-20-2011
Interesting thing about the GTS 450 card. When you start the HTPC, the GPU fan does a self check that is quite noticeable. It immediately settles down to something inaudible. During all the2D playback, it never once rose in volume. I am hoping that that remains the case when decoding 3D!
rdjam's Avatar rdjam 03:14 PM 01-20-2011
NVidia seems to be happy. I don't see any references to the 3dTV software I thought I needed.

Off to Arcsoft to check for updates. I find TMT update to 3.0.1.185

Fire away!
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rdjam's Avatar rdjam 03:37 PM 01-20-2011
Hmmmm. False start here.

Decided to just jump in and play the 3D version of Avatar next, and see what happens.

Got an error from TMT saying thy it couldn't find a 3D display. Since I haven't played 3D through the 4311 yet, I'm sure it's an issue between the HTPC and Denon, as windows shows the display as Denon.

I don't think this is a 3Dxl problem, so I am going to play with the Denon menus.
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bouda78's Avatar bouda78 08:55 AM 01-21-2011
rdjam try first to set ur pc resolution to 1280 x 720 @ 120Hz .
then connect ur pc directly to the 3d-xl with out passing through the denon
then open total media be sure that u have the 3d version.
if it didnt work then ur projector is not compatibale with the 3d xl.
rdjam's Avatar rdjam 10:21 AM 01-21-2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by bouda78 View Post

rdjam try first to set ur pc resolution to 1280 x 720 @ 120Hz .
then connect ur pc directly to the 3d-xl with out passing through the denon
then open total media be sure that u have the 3d version.
if it didnt work then ur projector is not compatibale with the 3d xl.

Thanks bouda

It seems that I have a combination of NVidia issues and TMT

For a clean start, I will be changing NVidia version today and upgrading to TMT5 to give me more control and confidence over the 3D output.

The issue last night was not the 3DXL, but rather my getting caught out in first-time use of the HTPC for 3D

We'll be back undeway tonight!
bouda78's Avatar bouda78 10:37 AM 01-21-2011
best luck
rdjam's Avatar rdjam 08:08 AM 01-22-2011
Alright! Back on track this morning.

I have retraced my steps and figured out the issue. I neglected to go through the 3D setup steps in the NVidia software.

My bad - first time configuring the HTPC for 3D.

3D is working now and the 3DXL is decoding the left and right perfectly.

Below are two shots to show my first 3D experience with the 3DXL. This is the 3D setup screen in NVidia Desktop.

The first shot is when the selector switch on the 3DXL is set for "Left" and the second is "Right".
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rdjam's Avatar rdjam 08:22 AM 01-22-2011
This shot shows that the two new 3D resolutions for HDMI 1.4 TVs now show up in the "choose resolution" menu.

I duly select 1080p24 3D output.

Now I'm ready to rock with Avatar 3D in TMT3.

(I already purchased the upgrade to TMT5 this morning but have not installed it yet. I'd rather complete testing on TMT3 then upgrade later so that I have a working understanding of the differences.)
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rdjam's Avatar rdjam 09:07 AM 01-22-2011
Ok - I am so totally over TMT3 right now. It has been an 'ornery, persnickety PITA while trying to configure it for 3D.

Windows desktop is fine, and so is everything downstream. TMT3 is outputting 2D black screen, with play popping up all the time, and my mouse clearly visible. The 3DXL also dutifully reports it is being fed a 2D signal.

The 2D/3D toggle button at the top of the screen in TMT3 is not working properly and keeps inserting. Gads!!

The good news is that the disc is now allowing me to choose 3D playback, so it recognizes that the chain is fully 3D. The issue is TMT3.

I am uninstalling TMT3 and going to install TMT5.
rdjam's Avatar rdjam 10:51 AM 01-22-2011
OK - no matter what I do with the HTPC, I am only getting 2D playback, often with audio and the desktop showing but with no video.

I have confirmed testing of 2D playback through the 3DXL, and can clearly see the 1080p24 to 1080p60 conversion is functioning, with the attendant stuttering. This is normal and was as expected, and will be fixed with the upcoming firmware update.

Had a post in the 3D thread tell me that 3D playback in the NVidia driver I'm using is broken (266.58) - so I am taking their recommendation next and downgrading to 260.x

But unfortunately, I have to travel for a wedding now... pick it up tomorrow.

Also, am sending for my Panasonic 3D Bluray player, which is at another location - testing with that now seems critical, to get the HTPC factor out of the equation, good or bad...
rdjam's Avatar rdjam 01:20 PM 01-22-2011
I suspect that I had 3G working at one point. The 3DXL has a indicator that pops up in the top right corner of the screen when it syncs to a new signal. It says "2D" or "3D".

I just need to find out if that display is showing what it is "receiving" from the AVR, or "sending" to the projector.

If it is showing what it is sending to the pj, then that would explain some things, since it would be sending a 2D signal to each pj.

The last run I did before leaving the house showed distinct 24p to 60p judder, making me feel that the PC was actually sending 3D.

I'll talk to Optoma on Monday and get some more info. I'm pretty sure the issue right now is getting the HTPC to output 3D reliably.
BlackShark's Avatar BlackShark 02:12 PM 01-22-2011
Could it be a detection issue ?

The Nvidia 3D software won't just do what you ask : it only works with a whitelist of compatible and authorized 3D display. Maybe the driver detects the Optoma 3DXL box and does not find it as an authorized 3D display.
rdjam's Avatar rdjam 05:20 PM 01-22-2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

Could it be a detection issue ?

The Nvidia 3D software won't just do what you ask : it only works with a whitelist of compatible and authorized 3D display. Maybe the driver detects the Optoma 3DXL box and does not find it as an authorized 3D display.

Possible. I see two different types of behavior.

1) When running normal 2D 1080p24 from the HTPC I see the RS40 showing that it is getting 1080p24 from the 3DXL, which to me says it is just passing it through (a good thing)

2) When I actually get 3D output from the HTPC, the 3DXL shows "2D" in the top right corner, and the RS40 reports getting 1080p60, and I see the expected 24p to 60p conversion judder (this will be rectified by the 24p firmware update, so I'm not worried about that).

The real issue seems to be that getting proper 3D output from the HTPC is like drawing blood from a stone right now.

For that reason, I'm getting my 3D Bluray player sent over. This will allow me to make better progress instead of wasting more time fighting with the NVidia software.

After I have everything else worked out and know what to expect, then I can go back and mess with the HTPC. At least then I won't have to do so much freakin' guessing...
walford's Avatar walford 08:58 AM 01-23-2011
Are you using the Nvidia 3DTV play software to send your content in an HDMI 1.4a 3D format to your 3D-XL unit or are you trying to use the older 3D Play software and sending frame sequential content to the 3D-XL?
rdjam's Avatar rdjam 11:20 AM 01-23-2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Are you using the Nvidia 3DTV play software to send your content in an HDMI 1.4a 3D format to your 3D-XL unit or are you trying to use the older 3D Play software and sending frame sequential content to the 3D-XL?

Sending 1080p24 frame packed with the newer software.

Once I have the whole 3D setup running, I'll be messing with a quad core, quad SLI game system to see what is the highest resolution 3D gaming that I can get on it. But that's another story.

I would like to get 1080p60 running to the pj but think the highest I've seen at 60 hz is 1080i SBS (3D that is).
BlackShark's Avatar BlackShark 12:58 PM 01-23-2011
The last time I read about Nvidia 3D drivers and SLI, the maximum number of cards supported was 2.
Users with more cards were raging on nvidia forums about not being able to use their 3-way and more SLI monsters.
I don't know if they fixed this issue though.
rdjam's Avatar rdjam 01:29 PM 01-23-2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

The last time I read about Nvidia 3D drivers and SLI, the maximum number of cards supported was 2.
Users with more cards were raging on nvidia forums about not being able to use their 3-way and more SLI monsters.
I don't know if they fixed this issue though.

Some NVidia cards actually have TWO processors on-board and, as I understand it, when two of these cards are combined it's called Quad-SLI. At least that's the way I interpreted the story I read this week.

There was a bit of a fuss over some of the previous iterations of this configuration, however, word is that nVidia is aiming for this space again...

I'm eyeing up two of the upcoming geForce 590 cards for this new game machine. It should be out shortly after I finish this particular project.

I plan on trying to get hold of the most graphics intensive games to run in 3D. For flight, I've preordered H.A.W.X 2. For racing I haven't found my dream game yet, as it turned out that the new F1 game was not exactly brilliant. Also ordered Mafia II.

Anyone have any ideas for a really good racing game that allows 2 players to race on the one PC?
rdjam's Avatar rdjam 05:07 PM 01-24-2011
Alright folks! I got the 3D Bluray Player tonight. It is a Panasonic DMP-BDT100 which came with my Avatar 3D disc, along with the plasma TV.

Hooked it up to the Denon and popped in the Avatar disc.

Played perfectly first time. As I suspected, the issues I was having was due to the HTPC.

The Panasonic Bluray player confirms that it is playing "Full HD 3D" and the JVC projector confirms that it is getting 1080p60 from the 3DXL box.
rdjam's Avatar rdjam 05:14 PM 01-24-2011
First image is Denon showing that it is receiving 1080p24 3D signal.

Second image shows the Panny BD player outputting 3D and the JVC projector is getting 1080p60 from the 3DXL box.

Verdict: It Werks!!! It Werks!!
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bouda78's Avatar bouda78 05:28 PM 01-24-2011
rdjam did u set the 3d-xl at the back to play 720p 3d or L/R 1080p because if u did set it to the selectable L/R 1080p u are getting the first image which is 1080p 60Hz so u need another pj and another 3d-xl to get the other selectable eye 1080p then ull get the full 1080p 3d. also u should wait for the fimware that u mentioned to be able to play it at 24Hz.
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