The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread - Page 76 - AVS Forum
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post #2251 of 2283 Old 11-05-2013, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

"As for performance hits it depends how the 3d is rendered some solutions only require around 4% more power. "
What 3D solution only requires 4% more power? And what 3D solution are you using to game at 1080p?

Cryengine uses a "reprojection" method for creating the 3d image that has around a 4% hit in performance for crysis 2 and 3, other similar solutions where used for deus ex human revolution and gears of war 3 on console. I'm sure their are more examples but those are the ones that come straight to mind. Personally I don't think this looks as good as the more intensive option but at the same time it is a very nice option that is getting better and better (try comparing crysis 2 and 3 on pc for evidence of how far it has come).
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post #2252 of 2283 Old 11-06-2013, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

"As for performance hits it depends how the 3d is rendered some solutions only require around 4% more power. "
What 3D solution only requires 4% more power? And what 3D solution are you using to game at 1080p?
Screen-space reprojection 3D, also known as single camera Z-buffer based 3D, many gamers call it "fake" 3D.
It's a very simple solution and elegant from a programmer's point of view.

The problem : it produces occlusion artefacts, so the developers need to keep the separation at a minimum and it makes games look very flat. Crysis 2 and 3 use this technique.
Some people like the compromise, but I can't stand it.
I bought Crysis 2 and was deeply disappointed by the results. When Crysis 3 came out, I just looked at a 3D screenshot made by someone else and immediately noticed the exact same problems, so I didn't buy it.

The Tridef drivers also have an option to use this mode instead of doing a full dual-camera rendering, I never use it because I can't stand the artefacts.
It's possible to reduce the effects and be able to use this technique propely, but it requires deep integration in the game. Until now, the only time i've seen this done right was in a console demo of Batman Arkam City at a trade show (TrioviZ booth) but the PC game didn't use this technique, it used the normal Nvidia 3D Vision instead, so I was never able to study it propely.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #2253 of 2283 Old 11-21-2013, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

I compared the light output between Omega and polarised dual projectors.
I don't have any measuring instruments so I compared them visually by putting them side by side.

On my Epson LCD projectors (color primaries cross-polarised), the Omega filters provide similar light output as standard linear polarised filters at 45° (supposed to be about ~45% light output per projector).
I also have specialised polarised filters designed to leverage the cross polarisation of my LCD projectors made by Advisol (SPAR filters), they are significantly brighter.

So how much did the cross-polarized projectors + SPAR setup cost you?
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post #2254 of 2283 Old 11-21-2013, 03:48 PM
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The info about the projectors is in the (old) thread in my signature.
I got the SPAR filters later, they used to be worth over 1200$ back in 2010 which is why I chose regular linear filters instead, I then got the SPAR filters second hand for much less.
I don't know how much they are worth today, I haven't checked advisol's website recently.

Note : newer Epson projectors have a different type of polarisation, make sure you check exactly what kind of polarisation your projectors have before buying the polarisation filters.
If your projectors have all colours polarised the same way, you'll be able to use different types of filters to achieve the same lumen efficiency gains for much cheaper.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #2255 of 2283 Old 12-15-2013, 01:49 PM
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VNS Inc. has added to the Geobox functionality for passive 3D.
Geobox G-104, G-303, G-501, and G-502 with 12/1/2013 or later firmware will support:
Nvidia 3D Vision 1080p/120Hz 3D.
AMD HD3D 1080p/120Hz 3D.

An LCD shutter Nvidia 3D setup is what I am use now so it is the method I personally will adapt to and can comment on with minimal knowledge. None of this is direct experience with a Geobox. It is from reading the VNS doc (linked below) and direct experience with 3D Vision shutter glasses since the CRT days to now on an HD TV (rear projection DLP).

This is from a PC gaming point of view. 3D Blu-ray from an Oppo player at 1080p/24Hz doesn’t need all this extra hoop jumping.
The PC method needs a monitor EDID override so the Nvidia drivers think the Geobox is a supported monitor. It needs the Nvidia IR emitter connected via USB or an emulator so the Nvidia divers will output the video in the 1080p/120Hz S3D format. Note: Nvidia 3DTV Play is not an option here as that is only the HDMI 1.4a compatible video out signal. That is why the need for the IR emitter (or maybe emulated).

Link to a PDF from VNS on the ‘how to’.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0FNJgjyvsYvU2ZTMlZjMjJsTTg/edit?usp=sharing

When I have the funds saved, I’ll be doing this. Probably after my Q1 2014 bonus in May 2014.
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post #2256 of 2283 Old 12-15-2013, 09:31 PM
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So those of us with the G-501 can do a firmware update to get the function for Nvidia? Can this be done by us or will it require the unit to be sent back to VNS?
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post #2257 of 2283 Old 12-16-2013, 10:05 AM
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Supports both NVidia 3D vision and AMD HD3D at uncompromised 1080p60 ? This is getting interesting. I might order one for christmas.
I'll have a look at the different VNS products with this feature, I've been waiting for an affordable demultiplexer with this feature for quite a while.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #2258 of 2283 Old 12-16-2013, 10:42 AM
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That is great news. Now for someone to take the jump, and to figure out what 3D system I want.
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post #2259 of 2283 Old 12-16-2013, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trgraphics View Post

So those of us with the G-501 can do a firmware update to get the function for Nvidia? Can this be done by us or will it require the unit to be sent back to VNS?

"Firmware" was my interpretation. I don't know it is just a firmware update. I'd ask VNS if you can upgrade an older G-501. I hope so as I was planning on getting one from Motorman45.

This is the exact notice I got from VNS Sales along witht he PDF I linked in the previous post.
"Due to many customers are requesting to support active 3D signal 1080p/120hz in passive 3D system, we had update our design to support this special function. Here is the application note to display Nvidia 3D Vision 1080p/120Hz 3D format in passive 3D system through G-104, G-303, G-501 or G-502. It will also support AMD HD3D 1080p/120Hz 3D format. We had implemented this new function from the products shipped from Dec-1-2013."
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post #2260 of 2283 Old 12-16-2013, 06:10 PM
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i will see if the 501's and 201's i have and have sold can be flashed. i do have a flash utility and procesure from vns for an update i got several months ago for another issue and the 501 i have was easily flashed to change some features.
it would be great if this was the case.

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post #2261 of 2283 Old 12-17-2013, 05:48 PM
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I certainly hope a piece of electronics as expensive as the 501 can be updated. I would hope they made improvements to the firmware but I have never heard of any type of update. In this day and age, that is almost unheard of.
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post #2262 of 2283 Old 12-17-2013, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trgraphics View Post

I certainly hope a piece of electronics as expensive as the 501 can be updated. I would hope they made improvements to the firmware but I have never heard of any type of update. In this day and age, that is almost unheard of.


i do have a flash utility and procesure from vns for an update i got several months ago for another issue and the 501 i have was easily flashed to change some features. i could email anyone who has a 501 the utility but i have to see if the new firmwear is available to flash. one can also email vns for the info and if anyone gets an answer before i do please post it here.

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post #2263 of 2283 Old 12-18-2013, 08:54 AM
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so the older Geobox 501's ARE capable of being flashed to support Nvidia 3D vision and AMD cards and 120hz with the new firmware. i should be getting the utility and files soon. VNS also will offer these files and the procedure of how to.

good news !

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post #2264 of 2283 Old 12-18-2013, 10:26 AM
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Good news. I would like to get this when it becomes available. I have the G-501. Thanks for looking into this Motorman.
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post #2265 of 2283 Old 12-18-2013, 12:10 PM
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It's available.
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post #2266 of 2283 Old 12-20-2013, 12:22 AM
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I am hesitating between the 303 and 501.
The 303 does all I need, the only little extra feature of the 501 that interests me is the optional DP input.
I can't find the retail price for the 501, I did find one for the 303 at alibaba (never bought anything from this platform) at around 1000$.
I suspect the 501 would cost significantly more than the 303, probably too much just to justify the DP input alone.

Are there any other retailers for the geobox products ?

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #2267 of 2283 Old 12-20-2013, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

I am hesitating between the 303 and 501.
The 303 does all I need, the only little extra feature of the 501 that interests me is the optional DP input.
I can't find the retail price for the 501, I did find one for the 303 at alibaba (never bought anything from this platform) at around 1000$.
I suspect the 501 would cost significantly more than the 303, probably too much just to justify the DP input alone.

Are there any other retailers for the geobox products ?
Go to the source

Geobox warp is supricingly sharp, much better than normal keystone.
Loving my curved screen...i only wish i would have not sold my projector before bying a new one...:-D
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post #2268 of 2283 Old 12-20-2013, 07:30 PM
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the only retial outlet for geobox i know of is elite screens or elite screens. they call the models something else so you have to look at the specs to see whats what . they just cut their prices but i dont see the 501 box on there anymore. i have several 201 box's and 2 501's left i can sell. new in box

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post #2269 of 2283 Old 06-02-2014, 09:01 AM
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I have a couple of new geobox 501's in if anyone is interested. pm me

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post #2270 of 2283 Old 10-13-2014, 04:57 AM
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For the past year I have been mostly answering questions but now I want to ask those knowledgeable in this area. That would save me a 76-pages-worth of time.

So I decided to grab a second Planar PD8150 and try to run passive 3D setup. From what I've gathered my options are quite limited since I don't want to change my current screen and go Silver. That means I'm limited to those solutions which are based on color separation. Infitec and Omega 3D are the ones I've heard of. So, my questions would be:

1) Is it really only possible to do passive 3D with two projectors? Aren't there any solutions to convert 3D output to two 2D inputs and combine them for frame-sequential active 3D (with RF shutter glasses)?
2) Which passive solution is better? Omega 3D? Infitec? Maybe other?
3) If my goal is to be able to watch movies @ 1080p48 Hz (for software frame interpolation) and play games at 1080p60 3D, what are my options? Is processor/demuxer a necessity? Which ones will provide for my needs?
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post #2271 of 2283 Old 10-13-2014, 09:26 AM
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1) You really need 2 projectors.
2) Haven't kept up on this. The Omega system is pretty cheap to try out.
3) If you are using a PC you don't need any demux. The Tridef drivers can work with dual outputs from your video cards, one to each projector. Personally I find software Bluray players pretty bad, so the Geobox 501 would be the only way I would go.
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post #2272 of 2283 Old 10-13-2014, 09:51 AM
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the only other way to get true passive 3D besides 2 projectors is the LG CF3D. ive been wanting one of these to put some of my optics into and tune.

i agree the software blueray is not great, the geobox solves a lot of problems. but trifed works great for gaming. the hardest part to 1080p60 gaming is finding a projector that will do 1080p 60hz.

infitec has two main flaws for the home theater owner, you cant buy the projection filters and you need to have color correction software/hardware to make the colors even close to watchable.

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post #2273 of 2283 Old 10-13-2014, 10:00 AM
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I don't know a 1080 projector that can't do 60Hz. I have to recommend the Benq 1070. A very good projector for the price, and it has just enough lens shift to align stacked projectors.
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post #2274 of 2283 Old 10-13-2014, 10:55 AM
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From my experience the Omega Optical system is fantastic. I would think that the Geobox solution would provide what you need as far as control. I am using the Optoma 3D-XL boxes in conjunction with a Lumagen Radiance that I already had and it works well. I would think that you would be pretty happy with (2) PD 8150 units for passive 3D. I don't get a chance to watch as much 3D as I originally thought that I would but the system is every bit as breathtaking as a 4K system just in different ways. To be honest, I think once you get a chance to see 3D with the brightness of a 2D picture it is really a game changer. In my opinion, the Omega optical filters are to notch in reference to brightness, color compensation between L and R filters and lack of crosstalk.


*As long as you have a decent CMS you can color calibrate each filter/ projector to your liking. In addition, as a tip I would focus on brightness matching the units and filters as well. Good luck.
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post #2275 of 2283 Old 10-13-2014, 10:58 AM
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Has anyone got experience with the VIP 3d evolver? This unit looks pretty good, with the benefit that I could use my standard white screen with the correct filter kit. Is this a viable option as well?

Follow my thread here
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post #2276 of 2283 Old 10-13-2014, 05:25 PM
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Hi
1) The best option is dual projectors. Single projector systems with a synchronized projector filter attachment exist, but they're expensive and typically require special equipment only found on professional projectors. For a home, you're better off with dual-projectors.

2) If you set polarization aside, there are 3 options : Omega, Infitec and Dolby. However Infitec and Dolby won't sell their equipment to individual consumers, they mainly want to deal with cinemas, so Omega is the only solution.

3) Playing games at 1080p60 stereo means you have a beefy PC with a powerful GPU. Your options will be different depending on your GPU.
If you have an AMD GPU (what I use), you can plug your projectors directly to the card, you'll need to use identical plugs at the back of your graphics card (adapters work but they must to be identical across both outputs, no mixing between hdmi, DVI and DisplayPort, otherwise you'll get a 1-frame lag between the eyes), use the Eyefinity multi-monitor feature to create a 3840x1080 side by side single surface. you'll play with Tridef, but for movies no BluRay3D playback software supports this, you'll need to convert them to side by side (full resolution preferably).
You can also use a Geobox 303 or 501 with DisplayPort, that will allow you to use both Tridef and native 3D applications compatible with AMD's HD3D feature. However I'm trying to get that working, there's a bug in AMD's drivers that make HD3D unusable (it doesn't ouputs the left and right eyes in sync !)
If you have an Nvidia GPU, I haven't tested it myself. I have read mixed results using a direct connection with Tridef because I am not sure if NVidia drivers provide with a way to synchronize the left and right outputs. From what I know, they don't, so you'll get a lag between the left and right eyes which is unacceptable.
So from what I know the Geobox is your only option. I've read one person saying it works well with Nvidia's drivers provided you can unlock them (EDID override and you may also need the Nvidia 3D Vision usb transmitter just to unlock the software, not sure if a hack is available after all these years). Tridef won't provide 1080p60 in this case, only Nvidia's 3D Vision driver.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)


Last edited by BlackShark; 10-13-2014 at 05:29 PM.
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post #2277 of 2283 Old 10-14-2014, 03:20 AM
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12GAGE, BlackShark thanks for your inputs. So, my 2nd question is cleared out, Omega 3D then. Regarding my 1st question, I might not have been clear. Is it possible to do frame-sequential 3D with two 2D projectors? Because I've heard you lose almost the same amount of brightness using Omega system as you do with active shutter glasses.

So I need Geobox for movies, right? I need to demux HDMI 1.4b signals (frame-packed etc.) into two separate 2D outputs and there's no workaround to it with using HTPC's graphic cards outputs? What about using Geobox for 1080p60 3D gaming, is it possible to output 1080p60 frame-packed 3D using dual-input DVI or Display Port to two 1080p60 2D outputs?
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post #2278 of 2283 Old 10-14-2014, 06:05 AM
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Answer to the 1st question :
Frame sequential 3D requires the projector to work at higher refresh rates for inputs (typically 120Hz or 144Hz). 2D projectors rarely provide anything above 60Hz input. So I'd say it isn't technically possible.
For the brightness issue : stacking multiple frame sequential projectors to increase the brightness is making things much more complicated than they should be. You'd have to clone the picture across your projectors, you'd have to line the pictures up perfectly, synchronize everything,... If you want a frame sequential projector, just buy a single brighter projector.
However you need to know that as of today, I do not know a single consumer projector that supports full resolution stereoscopic 1080p60Hz input, they're all 1080p24Hz or 720p60 only.

Answer to the 2nd question :
Yes and no... I mean not exactly.
You do not need it for movies, you need it for BluRay3D playback : as in put the disc in the tray and press play.
If you're fine with reencoding your movies, then the Geobox isn't mandatory provided you use an AMD graphic card for output.
Geobox isn't the only demultiplexer capable of splitting a 3D input source into dual outputs, but it's the cheapest one to support stereoscopic 1080p60Hz input for gaming, all the other cheaper demultiplexers only support the basic hdmi 1.4 input resolutions (1080p24, 720p60).
Geobox supports stereoscopic 1080p60Hz through DVI Dual-Link or DisplayPort only. It's hdmi input is the traditional limited one.
I do not know any device that supports hdmi frame packing input at 1080p60Hz, even though most graphics cards have been capable of outputting it for the last 3 years (all those using upgraded 300MHz hdmi chips)

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)


Last edited by BlackShark; 10-14-2014 at 06:10 AM.
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post #2279 of 2283 Old 10-14-2014, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post
Answer to the 1st question :
Frame sequential 3D requires the projector to work at higher refresh rates for inputs (typically 120Hz or 144Hz). 2D projectors rarely provide anything above 60Hz input. So I'd say it isn't technically possible.
Two 1080p60 projectors give you 120 sequential frames. I don't see how it's technically impossible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post
For the brightness issue
I didn't think about that. Really, if we only take the picture of a single projector one at a time in a sequential manner (unlike with passive setup) we don't actually gain any brightness advantage, don't we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post
Answer to the 2nd question :
Yes and no... I mean not exactly.
You do not need it for movies, you need it for BluRay3D playback : as in put the disc in the tray and press play.
If you're fine with reencoding your movies, then the Geobox isn't mandatory provided you use an AMD graphic card for output.
Geobox isn't the only demultiplexer capable of splitting a 3D input source into dual outputs, but it's the cheapest one to support stereoscopic 1080p60Hz input for gaming, all the other cheaper demultiplexers only support the basic hdmi 1.4 input resolutions (1080p24, 720p60).
Geobox supports stereoscopic 1080p60Hz through DVI Dual-Link or DisplayPort only. It's hdmi input is the traditional limited one.
I do not know any device that supports hdmi frame packing input at 1080p60Hz, even though most graphics cards have been capable of outputting it for the last 3 years (all those using upgraded 300MHz hdmi chips)
I think I get the picture. Now, for 1080p60 3D gaming one would need at least an AMD Radeon R9 295X. Or maybe I'll wait until February/March and get two 390X in a Crossfire config. It's good that external demultiplexer is not a necessity with an HTPC. Thanks!
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post #2280 of 2283 Old 10-14-2014, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post
Two 1080p60 projectors give you 120 sequential frames. I don't see how it's technically impossible.
I didn't think about that. Really, if we only take the picture of a single projector one at a time in a sequential manner (unlike with passive setup) we don't actually gain any brightness advantage, don't we?

I think I get the picture. Now, for 1080p60 3D gaming one would need at least an AMD Radeon R9 295X. Or maybe I'll wait until February/March and get two 390X in a Crossfire config. It's good that external demultiplexer is not a necessity with an HTPC. Thanks!
Frequencies don't add up this way. 1/60 + 1/60 != 1/120
You will get 120 frames but they won't be distinct, they will overlap, shutter glasses won't be able to sort them.

Any mid-range card can do 1080p60 (I've been doing it with my good old Radeon HD5870 and I currently still use a Radeon HD7970 (1st edition). But for gaming, the ideal is the most powerful single chip graphics card you can afford in order to keep framerates as high as possible even in the latest games.
Tridef isn't very efficient with dual-GPUs, only the Nvidia 3D Vision driver is really good with dual GPUs, however you will need a demultiplexer if you want to use Nvidia's driver.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)


Last edited by BlackShark; 10-14-2014 at 07:35 AM.
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