The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread - Page 77 - AVS Forum
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post #2281 of 2299 Old 10-14-2014, 10:13 AM
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http://www.avsforum.com/forum/newrep...ply&p=28207834

better do a sli or crossfire setup from startup. im running gtx660ti x2 SLI and it´s ok for many games but no i see it getting short. and at new year when oculus ect
vr is released you gonna need the extra power and it does not hurt to have it now eather. my next setup is propably 970 6GB * 2 SLI
with 4GB card your run pretty good now but the 6GB cards have been slowly creep in if you wanna play with the best textyres.
i remember when 1GB cards were introduced and nomoby did not believe you would never need more than 512MB.
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post #2282 of 2299 Old 10-14-2014, 12:26 PM
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Frequencies don't add up this way. 1/60 + 1/60 != 1/120
You will get 120 frames but they won't be distinct, they will overlap, shutter glasses won't be able to sort them.
You're right... I am getting sloppy. Two of them will only give 30 fps in frame-sequential, the same as one projector.
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But for gaming, the ideal is the most powerful single chip graphics card you can afford in order to keep framerates as high as possible even in the latest games.
Do you know if 295X works as single-chip?
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post #2283 of 2299 Old 10-14-2014, 01:30 PM
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Multi GPUs on a single board still act like multiple GPUs.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #2284 of 2299 Old 12-09-2014, 02:59 AM
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Been gone a while after selling my twin W6000's a while back. I'll probably re-read all of this but if yall don't mind giving me a few updates I would appreciate it.

1. I wan't to do polarized (unless yall have found projectors that can color correct perfectly for the omega system). What current projectors have all colors aligned for wave retarders? Last I checked I was looking at the Epson 5010, it had all 3 aligned and was a light cannon... anything newer or better?

2. Geobox options, I read real quick that they are updated for 120hz, whats the experience like so far with how it handles it, warping working at the same time?

3. Back to #1 , best front or rear projection screen material to eliminate ghosting?
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post #2285 of 2299 Old 12-09-2014, 02:07 PM
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Ghost free picture is what one wants. I think omega is the only conciderable choise to go if one wants to viel 3d material currently. Maby oculus is Also.
Active flickers and ghosts, shure the colors are accurate ect. But me atleast would not want to watch.
Polarizers are definetly no go. After using omega, even with color correction
I would not wanna go Back to my polarizers.
Hc5 with Sony panels and dlp omega filtters is great. Propably even better with the LCD versions.
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post #2286 of 2299 Old 12-09-2014, 10:33 PM
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I would never go with active polarization, I do however believe after doing my own test that dual projection polarization works well. My experience with the Omega system was good but the color accuracy didn't meet my needs. It is a personal personal decision based on the pros and cons, I would rather have a small % of ghosting than ruin color accuracy. Having said that, the right set of projectors may change my mind in reguards to the Omega system.

My budget only allowed me to test two BenQ W6000s with Omega, one filter (can't remember which) I was able to adjust color enough to meet my needs, but the other filter significantly altered the colors. When I was able to get colors close to accurate one projector was much dimmer, which caused eye strain for 3d viewing. Bottom line, it wasn't possible to match colors and brightness with the omega filters to the point I was satisfied, I think you would need an external color correction solution. That isn't to say that another set of projectors couldn't work, and if you know of any and have tested them please let me know!
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post #2287 of 2299 Old 12-10-2014, 01:27 PM
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hc5 has very good manual iris. it helps a lot to balance the brightness.
yes it´s really important to get all to match.
brightness
gamma
and colors.
i would love to test also my polarizers with superb screen material.
but for what i tested samples of known best material the polarisation retention rate was not anyway better than the
screen i painted with silverscreen paint.
but it´s tru polarizers keep the colors in balance much better.
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post #2288 of 2299 Old 12-16-2014, 04:47 PM
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My situation is the opposite.
I use dual projectors, and I also have both a polarised set and an omega set of filters and glasses, however I tend to prefer the polarised system.

My projectors are old Epson EH TW3500 (the european equivalent of the Epson HomeCinema 8100), with the lens slightly offset to the side and the primary colours cross-polarised (green is polarised vertically, red and blue are horizontal)

I knew from the very beginning that mitigating crosstalk in the polarising technique requires a very high quality silverscreen, I got my screen from Harkness screens UK (screen material only, to attach on a DIY frame). It's among the top screen material i could get, and made 100% for 3D (no compromise for 2D)
About rear projection : i have never tested it but all the pllarisation extinction ratio charts I have seen for 3D rear projection show significantly better properties than front projection screens.
If you have the space, a specialized rear projection made for polarised 3D shlould be better, with significantly less crosstalk.

On my front-projection screen crosstalk is present but surprisingly tolerable given how much bleeding I can see when I do a crosstalk test.
I started with standard linear filters. Yes, they do work with cross-polarised colours, you just need to set them at 45/135° instead of vertical/horizontal, and use the appropriate set of glasses. There is a small issue with colour uniformity though.
I later got a set of special purpose SPAR filters from Advisol designed for cross polarized projectors, they leverage significantly more light (almost no visible brightness loss between 2D and 3D) and provide better colour uniformity (but don't eliminate it completely.

Then came Omega.
Their solution is really nice, it's cheaper, simpler, no need for silverscreens and with zero crosstalk. What's not to like ?
Well a few things : my projectors don't provide very good colours with Omega, no matter how much tweaking I tried, I couldn't get good reds or cyans in one eye. I could get them somewhat acceptable but never good.
Second is ambient light issues : my projectors are in my living room, not a dedicated cinema cave, so I've got white walls and a white ceiling which cause small reflections of your eyes inside the omega reflective filters, unless I wear a cap. And don't even think about having ANY ambient lights in the room, not even controlled lights because artificial lights (CFL or even most LEDs) have a different colour in each eye when viewed through the Omega filters (incandescent light bulbs no longer exist around here).
The ergonomics are also a little less good : the Omega lenses are narrow, since I also wear prescription glasses, there is barely enough field of view to watch the whole screen, it makes them feel a little claustrophobic. By comparison, the polarised glasses I have are huge (same shape as RealD but with linear polarisers instead of circular).

And finally brightness, Omegas filter about the same amount as standard polarising filters, but I also have SPARs which are much brighter... the playing field isn't level.
So in the end polarised wins for me.
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Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)


Last edited by BlackShark; 12-16-2014 at 05:04 PM. Reason: added rear projection paragraph
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post #2289 of 2299 Old 12-17-2014, 06:40 AM
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Pretty much spot on with my experience and future plans BlackShark, A few Epson 5010's with wave retarders should preform really well. Any idea what effects a mirror has on polarization? From my research, you are right about rear projection 3d being better for extinction ratios. I would like to have a setup like this, but I imagine the mirrors would ruin the idea...
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post #2290 of 2299 Old 12-17-2014, 12:14 PM
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When I look at myself in a mirror with polarised glasses on, it appears to keep the polarisation.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #2291 of 2299 Old 12-17-2014, 12:56 PM
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Have anyoff you with omega filtters try to make color profiles for left and right projector with colorimeter like x-rite or similar,
calibrating with omega filtters on, then using stereo player ect. that
supports dual projector setup to play some stereo content.
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post #2292 of 2299 Old 12-17-2014, 04:27 PM
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I don't have a colorimeter. but the main thing with Omega on my projectors is that no matter the RGB or hue settings, I simply cannot produce certain colours in one eye : red and cyan don't exist in the right eye, at best I have orange and white.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #2293 of 2299 Old 12-18-2014, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post
I don't have a colorimeter. but the main thing with Omega on my projectors is that no matter the RGB or hue settings, I simply cannot produce certain colours in one eye : red and cyan don't exist in the right eye, at best I have orange and white.
Well thats a problem. With hc5 all the colors are there, it,S just problematic like with red the other channel has brighter red and if i Try to increase the other projector red to get the same intensity the red color is burned when i get there so for red its a matter of balance between how close i wanna get and how much im willing to burn the red of the other projector.
I got pretty good reissults with hc5s own color settings but the only bigger issue is with the overal hue or the so call tint of the channels. Other to yellowish, and other to Blue. But i have only the dlp version of omega filtters. I would love to test the LCD versions.
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post #2294 of 2299 Old 12-18-2014, 05:40 AM
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the color variations between eyes using omega filters it totally dependent on how complete the spectrum is coming from a given projector. a lot of LCD and some DLP have deep filter notches that cut out cyan and yellow and the red rolls off steeply leaving a more orange red in the native light output. i have used a couple of uhp lamp dlp projectors that do not exhibit this highly filtered output and the left to right color imbalance is very slight.
the LCD version has a color balancing coating on the opposite side from the filter and helps some with this issue most intense with LCD. LCD tends to be more of an issue due to the RGB dichroic filters that split the light to the 3 panels. gaps in the spectrum are due to the choice of dichroic filter and how they work. color wheels in dlp can do the same but most do not have the high level of extinction of cyan and yellow.
all of the this spectrum loss cuts into some of the bands that the omega filters use to create color balance. then its all up to how much red spectrum is available to be used from the UHP lamp. i have a newer design for the the system but delays in production are holding it back for now. i think i can create better LCD Lcos balance with my new design. it will take time as ive got some big projects right now.


Polarization however should work ok from a mirror BUT.. at steep angles there is a bias of S and P planes of polarization and you will see a subtle difference in the intensity of one plane or another from bouncing polarized light from several mirrors. im not sure how well rear screens can maintain polarization. ive had customers move to my filter to do just this as they could not get polarizers to work with rear screen materials. i would love to hear back how this works from your guys if you try it. there may be some materials for this that work and others that do not.

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post #2295 of 2299 Old 12-18-2014, 07:48 AM
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i have a newer design for the the system but delays in production are holding it back for now. i think i can create better LCD Lcos balance with my new design. it will take time as ive got some big projects
Count me in for the new set and inform ASAP you have the new line ready. If you need beta test/evaluation im happy to participate.
My Sxrd's are eager to display even better 3D!
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post #2296 of 2299 Old 12-18-2014, 04:11 PM
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Regarding the VNS Geobox 501.


I have one and these are my test results :

Using a Sony PS3 : it works great with good sync. Games run at 720p, you can choose to upscale with the G501 or let your projectors do the scaling. Movies run at 1080p24 and the geobox 501 has an option to allow 24Hz output or to resync to 60Hz (for compatibilty with analog output ?)

Using my PC (gpu is AMD Radeon HD7970) : Hdmi frame packing works at the usual 1.4 frequencies but it has a huge defect : there is a 1 frame lag between the left and right eyes, AMD knows about it but there are no fixes to date.

DisplayPort allows 3D including 1080p120Hz sequential but the Geobox does not natively declares it to the graphics card duri'g the EDID handshake, you have to override the EDID setting with the one from an HD3D compatible monitor. I do not know how to write a custom EDID for the geobox, so I used one from a Samsung S27A950D monitor I found at 3D Vision blog forums http://3dvision-blog.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2025

It kind of works : I can launch games at the full 1080p60 Hz per eye (120Hz sequential) but has two really annoying issues.

First I am stuck with the refresh rates of this monitor, 24Hz is not supported by this monitor so this refresh rate is greyed out (not good for movies) even though it should be supported. I don't want to switch cables every time I want to play a movie. I would need a better EDID inf file but I don't know how to make one.

Second, and most annoying : the 1 frame lag between the eyes is also there. But the frame order is inconsistent between launches, there is a 50-50 chance of getting either the 1 frame lag or a cross-eyed outputs with good sync. There is no apparent way to predict which you'll get : roll a dice every time you launch your HD3D application or alt-tab in and out of the application.

Using an friend's Nvidia based laptop, I tried hdmi output, I used the 3DTV Play and played a game. I got perfect sync at the usual hdmi 1.4 resolution/refresh rates.

I do not have an Nvidia GPU with displayport or DualLink DVI to do the test but I have read somewhere somebody successfully getting full 1080p120Hz NVidia 3D Vision output using an EDID override file.

One thing to note if you want to use dual-link DVI, it is not enabled by default, you have to access a hidden maintenance menu in the G501 to enable it (ask VNS for the specific manual, they'll email you the pdf file with instructions).

So in the end, I still plug the projectors directly to the computer, I can't do everything with it but I do get all the resolutions and refresh rates I want easily, it's predictable, and I have all my workflows already in place to play games and watch movies. I just can't use native HD3D games and apps, and I have to rip my BleRays in order to watch them.

Last edited by BlackShark; 12-18-2014 at 04:27 PM.
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post #2297 of 2299 Old Yesterday, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
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Regarding the VNS Geobox 501.
Second, and most annoying : the 1 frame lag between the eyes is also there. But the frame order is inconsistent between launches, there is a 50-50 chance of getting either the 1 frame lag or a cross-eyed outputs with good sync. There is no apparent way to predict which you'll get : roll a dice every time you launch your HD3D application or alt-tab in and out of the application.
- i also get the crossed eye sometimes, what ever seems to be that days theme
but there is a way to get the eyes fixed. just hit the shotcut key of tunrning 3d vision on and off (if you got one). after one or many hits you get the eye correct.
works asleast with my gtx660ti SLI setup.


I do not have an Nvidia GPU with displayport or DualLink DVI to do the test but I have read somewhere somebody successfully getting full 1080p120Hz NVidia 3D Vision output using an EDID override file.

- im using displayport with 3D vision

-i think there is some bugs in geobox course i get wierd tearing ect sometimes when starting bluray movie from my bluray player (panasonic), i have to fiddle with the settings. on, off on, off this and that.
-i also wonder if i got a 1 frame lag always even with geobox. course when the disc loads the movie there is this figure on screen, balls in a circle and every ball lights up
one of a time. and when viewed with glasses you can clearly see it´s flashing. and with out 3d glasses it seem to be ok. so eather it is because geobox is yet not recieving
3d signal or then something other...
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post #2298 of 2299 Old Yesterday, 02:57 AM
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The first time I connected the PS3, it didn't sync properly. I had rolling v-sync tearing in frame-packing, and went crosseyed when the sync tear reaches the bottom of the screen.
I went in the PS3 settings to redetect the hdmi output capabilities of the geobox, and then it worked flawlessly.

Back to Displayport, on AMD cards, unlike 3D Vision, the software layer is clearly separated from the hardware layer.
Turning 3D on and off in software does not reset the sync and the picture stays the same. I have to change the resolution or the refresh rate in order to force the graphics card to reset the sync.
One more thing : when using Displayport frame sequential, I have to enable the geobox "frame-lock" mode or I get a rolling v-sync tear (and crosseyed when the sync tear reaches the bottom of the screen). This does not happen at all when using hdmi.
I believe hdmi is immune to this because of the way the frame-packing format is made.

Since you also have swapped eyes on initialisation on Nvidia this means neither Nvidia nor AMD keep a proper left/right frame pairing when outputting sequential output. This is really frustrating. It means we won't get any kind of clean and predictable transmission method until hdmi comes to the rescue with proper mandatory 1080p60 frame-packing, and that may take years.

And with the new fresync/gsync battle on the horizon, I fear the worst.
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post #2299 of 2299 Old Today, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post
The first time I connected the PS3, it didn't sync properly. I had rolling v-sync tearing in frame-packing, and went crosseyed when the sync tear reaches the bottom of the screen.
I went in the PS3 settings to redetect the hdmi output capabilities of the geobox, and then it worked flawlessly.

Back to Displayport, on AMD cards, unlike 3D Vision, the software layer is clearly separated from the hardware layer.
Turning 3D on and off in software does not reset the sync and the picture stays the same. I have to change the resolution or the refresh rate in order to force the graphics card to reset the sync.
One more thing : when using Displayport frame sequential, I have to enable the geobox "frame-lock" mode or I get a rolling v-sync tear (and crosseyed when the sync tear reaches the bottom of the screen). This does not happen at all when using hdmi.
I believe hdmi is immune to this because of the way the frame-packing format is made.

Since you also have swapped eyes on initialisation on Nvidia this means neither Nvidia nor AMD keep a proper left/right frame pairing when outputting sequential output. This is really frustrating. It means we won't get any kind of clean and predictable transmission method until hdmi comes to the rescue with proper mandatory 1080p60 frame-packing, and that may take years.

And with the new fresync/gsync battle on the horizon, I fear the worst.
And plus to that the masses have decared 3d to be dead, so why would anyone wanna out resources into it. Like one Store owner said to me when i went demo a Sony hw55 and wants to se 3d demo,
" not possible, has not been possible for a while, actualy it was askel last time about a year " " projector is bought based on 2d performanse, 3D IS JUST A FEATURE"
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