The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread - Page 78 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 02-14-2015, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer View Post
I'm going to post some information in the 3D screens thread shortly on my thoughts on the 5D and some other screen materials I looked at.

W. Jeff Meier in his Screen material test report pretty much nails the 2D performance description for the 5D - color reproduction is excellent, it has a very smooth surface and you do get some shimmer due to the reflective elements in the screen. IMO any screen with gain has hotspotting and this is a silver screen with gain and reflective elements so it's definitely not a 'clean' 2D screen. I have an HP 2.4 Da-Lite screen as well for comparison and while that's a better screen for 2D from a 'clean' reflective elements perspective, the color reproduction isn't as good as that on the 5D.

For 2D I only use one projector which is set in ECO mode and I have the white level turned down to 13ftl from about 17-18ftl. Having one lamp age differently isn't an issue as I can recalibrate as time goes on with the Radiance units\Calman and both projectors will still match in their light output and color balance.

i think the easiest way to get riddof hotspotting is go curved.
Had for a while but dropped it down while i was waiting my omega filtters. I might Try it one more time maby some time if there comes superbly better silverscreens. Im bothered about the ghosting every silver seems to have, atleast based on samples compared to one i have.
Curved screen is pretty easy to do if you get yourself some metal/aluminiumin to make a frame and use some threaded
Rod on top and bottom attached to the screen material, just tie from the Sail holes if you have them on your screen material.
Then have some stoppers at left and right top and bottom of the frame at the screen edge level to force the threaded rod to bend backwards. Just have the frame mounted off the wall 20-30 cm with some shelf holderit so there is room for bendings.
After maskin the tie strings of the screen it even looks great and if and just if you wanna use backlight its easy to light some at the Back of the screen course its not that fixin.
Worked like charm, i loved it.
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Old 02-15-2015, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaan Janne View Post
i think the easiest way to get riddof hotspotting is go curved.
Had for a while but dropped it down while i was waiting my omega filtters. I might Try it one more time maby some time if there comes superbly better silverscreens. Im bothered about the ghosting every silver seems to have, atleast based on samples compared to one i have.
Curved screen is pretty easy to do if you get yourself some metal/aluminiumin to make a frame and use some threaded
Rod on top and bottom attached to the screen material, just tie from the Sail holes if you have them on your screen material.
Then have some stoppers at left and right top and bottom of the frame at the screen edge level to force the threaded rod to bend backwards. Just have the frame mounted off the wall 20-30 cm with some shelf holderit so there is room for bendings.
After maskin the tie strings of the screen it even looks great and if and just if you wanna use backlight its easy to light some at the Back of the screen course its not that fixin.
Worked like charm, i loved it.
I just posted in the Screens for 3D projection thread on my testing from a few different materials. The $5 DIY screen I outline there might make an interesting test to compare to your existing silver screen material and polarization retention.

Hotspotting - that's an interesting subject in itself. How wide is your screen (left to right) and how many multiples away from the screen do you have the PJs mounted? Are the PJs mounted at the top of the screen or below the top edge of the screen? My PJs are mounted more than 2x the screen width from the screen surface.
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Old 02-16-2015, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaan Janne View Post
i think the easiest way to get riddof hotspotting is go curved.
Had for a while but dropped it down while i was waiting my omega filtters. I might Try it one more time maby some time if there comes superbly better silverscreens. Im bothered about the ghosting every silver seems to have, atleast based on samples compared to one i have.
What sreens did you have? I am considering linear polarization on this one: http://screenresearch.com/website/do...eb_01_2013.pdf as it has quite small holes for audio transparency. I wanna go 4k & curved.
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Old 02-16-2015, 10:02 AM
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What sreens did you have? I am considering linear polarization on this one: http://screenresearch.com/website/do...eb_01_2013.pdf as it has quite small holes for audio transparency. I wanna go 4k & curved.
I had Custom made. Wax canvas painted with silver paint from awater 3D
To my experience it was pretty smooth, not so much grainy as many silver materials at 2D.

I did order many samples. Dalite ect best 3d canvases and i think the polarisation retention was as **** on these samples as in my Custom screen. I gues its ok on many movies but after watching the omega filtters the 3D effect is still so much sharper than polarized, because of the noin ghosting filtering technik.allthough i miss the color accuracy of polarized.Point of my reply is i did not find a bit worth the money to spend on expensive professional screen materials because my personal opinnion is they Were not a bit better and cost a joke.

Last edited by Vaan Janne; 02-16-2015 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 02-17-2015, 02:50 PM
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Top screens like Steward 5D claim over 90% of polarization retention though. Well, and I am not sure If I can live with the color inacuracy of the Omega filters, that's why I want to go polarized.
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Old 02-17-2015, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by zorg43x View Post
What sreens did you have? I am considering linear polarization on this one: http://screenresearch.com/website/do...eb_01_2013.pdf as it has quite small holes for audio transparency. I wanna go 4k & curved.
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Originally Posted by zorg43x View Post
Top screens like Steward 5D claim over 90% of polarization retention though. Well, and I am not sure If I can live with the color inacuracy of the Omega filters, that's why I want to go polarized.
I am thinking of the same thing. I spoke to the Stewart's distributor here in Australia and he was quite knowledgable in the passive 3d setup. I am wanting to do a 2.35 screen and he basically said that I would get a much better result with a curved screen.

The only issue with 4k is you are restricted to three companies with licensing - Sony, Christie and Barco. I had a look at Barco and Christie, they really don't have anything that is really fit for home use. That leaves Sony the only option. From most tests they the Sony's Red/Blue is going to be at 90 degree with the green making it less efficient than a JVC which is of course not really a 4k. However, there are virtually no 4k content at the moment so the JVC e-shift may give you the a close result to a Lumigan upscaled 4k image at a much lower price.

At the moment, I am incline to wait until 4k is cheaper. The extra 20k on the projector is better spent on the A-lens.
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Old 02-20-2015, 12:59 PM
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Like you said, it is better to wait until there are more 4k or UHD pjs available. The few Sonys there already available are still quite pricy and have quite a disadvantage - low speed HDMI. But on the other hand they're true 4k, not only UHD. I bet for the next generation of their pjs they choose different native resolution of the panels not to interfere with the professional segment.
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Old 02-23-2015, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by zorg43x View Post
Top screens like Steward 5D claim over 90% of polarization retention though. Well, and I am not sure If I can live with the color inacuracy of the Omega filters, that's why I want to go polarized.
Measuring polarisation retention in percentage give a very poor representation of what will happen.
Screens for polarised 3D must have more than 99% polarisation retention, all these screens will fit within the last 1% but any extra decimal point will have a huge impact on screen.
In order to get a proper idea of how well it looks that value should be measured as an extinction ratio = correct polarisation / incorrect polarisation. Because that will almost be the actual amount of crosstalk you'll get (the screen is the weakest link in the chain).
Typical polarisation filters have extinction ratios above 1000:1, but screens range between 80:1 (poor screen) and 150:1 (excellent screen)

The last time I checked, Stewart provides charts on their website showing how the extinction ratio varies according to the view angle.
Edit : It seems I can't find the charts on their new website
Edit 2 : I checked harkness screens' website to see what the competition does, it looks like they went the other way, they made a higher gain, lower view angle screen but with a crazy high 270:1 extinction ratio (Spectral 300). That screen would be unusable with a flat screen, a curved screen would be mandatory with such a beast.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)


Last edited by BlackShark; 02-23-2015 at 04:38 AM.
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Old 05-06-2015, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post
Measuring polarisation retention in percentage give a very poor representation of what will happen.
Screens for polarised 3D must have more than 99% polarisation retention, all these screens will fit within the last 1% but any extra decimal point will have a huge impact on screen.
In order to get a proper idea of how well it looks that value should be measured as an extinction ratio = correct polarisation / incorrect polarisation. Because that will almost be the actual amount of crosstalk you'll get (the screen is the weakest link in the chain).
Typical polarisation filters have extinction ratios above 1000:1, but screens range between 80:1 (poor screen) and 150:1 (excellent screen)

The last time I checked, Stewart provides charts on their website showing how the extinction ratio varies according to the view angle.
Edit : It seems I can't find the charts on their new website
Edit 2 : I checked harkness screens' website to see what the competition does, it looks like they went the other way, they made a higher gain, lower view angle screen but with a crazy high 270:1 extinction ratio (Spectral 300). That screen would be unusable with a flat screen, a curved screen would be mandatory with such a beast.
spectral 300 has smoothest shimmering than any of their polarized screens...atleast i think so.
Blackshark Do you think i have problem with hotspotting ?
i have manual iris in HC5 so i can close it to ridicilously dark. and i got a curved frame
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Old 05-08-2015, 08:52 AM
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If you want to go with a silver screen I suggest MDI strong. In the screen section I did a review of their StereoView screen. They are a screen company for the commercial theaters but can make you a smaller screen, I made my own frame. They also have a screen called HighWhite which is supposed to be even better with less sparkle and a better 2D viewing.
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Old 06-02-2015, 02:23 PM
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After 4 years of good and loyal services, I am looking for a replacement for my silverscreen.
The Harkness Spectral240 screen material has very good polarization retention capabilities, but it has big flaws :
-it has a high gain, and narrow view angle, creating a hotspot of very intense light in the middle, with a sharp light drop near the edges
-it's has a visible grain that make the picture look blurry, it's designed for large cinema screens, not for close-up use in the home, making it unacceptable for 2D use in the home
-it has a very strong shimmering due to the aluminium flakes embedded in the screen material's surface

I looked for better options. There are a few other silverscreen manufacturers out there that have silverscreens designed to be more balanced for 2D and 3D.
But one screen grabbed my attention : Screen Innovation's BlackDiamond 2.7 gain (the others don't keep polarization properly).
It's not a silverscreen, but it's a special material that has ambient-light-resistant properties. The 0.8 and 1.4 gain versions preserve polarization partially, but not well enough for 3D. The 2.7 gain screen is claimed to work well for polarized 3D, and I remember reading rdjam saying he owns one and it works well.

There is just one problem : I can't find good retailers in my country, and in the only shops I do find, it's expensive as hell !

Out of pure luck only google can provide, I found out about a small competitor I had never heard about : Xtrem Screens (and for good reason, their website is not done, they just provide a contact email)
I found about them by reading a french AV forum talking about their ambient-resistant screen, the Xtrem Screen Daylight. It turns out there is a thread here at AVS about this screen with all the right links and pictures Xtrem Screen Daylight cheaper alternative to the black diamond : User review
I wondered if by trying to reach the same goal, they might use the same process (by creating a similar screen to BlackDiamond, they might produce a good screen for polarised 3D).
I had a massive hint : people on the french forums mention that they have huge variations in brightness when they use active 3D glasses depending on the brand of glasses, the picture is super bright when they use the manufacturer's glasses, but very dark when using Xpand's glasses. (that's a clear polarization phenomenon right there)

I contacted them, and had a lengthy discussion with one of their technicians (I believe he is one of the founders of the company).
It turns out had a good intuition !

-Xtrem Screens Daylight ambient-light-resistant screens do maintain polarization
-it was part of the design, not a fluke
-they have had clients who tried polariszd 3D with it and they said it works
-their Daylight "reference" 1.1 gain screen is the best they offer for polarized 3D
-their Daylight 0.9 gain screen also works, but does not maintain polarization as well as their 1.1 gain screen
-an other Daylight 1.4 gain screen exists (it's the one shown in the screens at the link above), it was their first model, but they only recommended their newer 1.1 and 0.9 models, which they claim are significantly better.
-they make their screens with standard fixed frame, super-slim "zero edge" style frame, and also have a motorized rollable version
-it's still an expensive screen, but it's half the price of the Black Diamond (at least in my country)
-they are very confident in their product, they claim it's better than the Black Diamond, and are ready to offer me a full refund if I'm not happy with it
-their office in my country, near Strasbourg, a city I visit very often (Alsace power !)

I am going to give their screen a try

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)


Last edited by BlackShark; 06-02-2015 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 06-03-2015, 03:10 PM
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i tested samples of spectral 300 and 240 clarus cx220 and i was about to order the 300 because it has lesser graining of these and small amount of better extinction in terms of crosstalk but
i got stewart 5D sample from paul and i gotta say the extinction is about the same but the light output over screen is more constant and the grainines is alot lesser. actually it gives
pretty darn good 2D picture also. And the extintion is not anywhere near omega but in movies it´s much more to my liking to watch color balanced 3D allthough my omega filtter get
pretty good results. But i still use them for games after getting my silverscreen.
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Old 06-04-2015, 12:18 AM
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Nice report BlackShark! I would say go there to Strasbourgh and see for yourself if you are satisfied.
If they claim "it maintains polarization" - are thre any serious numbers or at least a comparison to a common material?
I have asked my dealer about Stewart 5D, which should be quite good for 3D and 2D, and for 4.1x1.8m screen size I got an offer of 4500 Euro.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:16 AM
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At this time, they have not published any official measurements for passive polarized 3D. And they also probably do not have a dual-projector setup to de the measurements in their office.
From what XtremScreens told me, their previous passive polarized customer had tried regular silverscreens and were not satisfied with the compromises between ability to maintain stereo and the picture quality. The viewing room also has a little bit of ambient light.
So when the customer tried the XtremScreen Daylight, he was blown away by the overall picture quality he was getting and the passive 3D worked just as well as with silverscreens. Add the ambient-light resistant properties of the screen, and there was just no way he's send the screen back.
That's all I know, I do not have any figures or comparison pictures.

I considered visiting their office in Strasbourg before buying, but they do not have a demonstration passive polarized system in their showroom (the majority of their market uses traditional 2D and active 3D, so that's what they installed in their showroom). Since I do not have any measuring instruments either, it would have been pointless for me to bring my projectors in.
The guy from XtremScreens was so confident I would prefer his screen, he offered me a refund if I'm not satisfied, so I decided to buy one, and I'll compare it's performance with my current Spectral240 when I receive it.
The price for the 2.40m 16:9 screen, with a standard fixed frame is 2350€ (incl. 20% french VAT and shipping to my home).

I'll receive it by the end of the month.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)


Last edited by BlackShark; 06-04-2015 at 02:23 AM.
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Old 06-04-2015, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post
At this time, they have not published any official measurements for passive polarized 3D. And they also probably do not have a dual-projector setup to de the measurements in their office.
From what XtremScreens told me, their previous passive polarized customer had tried regular silverscreens and were not satisfied with the compromises between ability to maintain stereo and the picture quality. The viewing room also has a little bit of ambient light.
So when the customer tried the XtremScreen Daylight, he was blown away by the overall picture quality he was getting and the passive 3D worked just as well as with silverscreens. Add the ambient-light resistant properties of the screen, and there was just no way he's send the screen back.
That's all I know, I do not have any figures or comparison pictures.

I considered visiting their office in Strasbourg before buying, but they do not have a demonstration passive polarized system in their showroom (the majority of their market uses traditional 2D and active 3D, so that's what they installed in their showroom). Since I do not have any measuring instruments either, it would have been pointless for me to bring my projectors in.
The guy from XtremScreens was so confident I would prefer his screen, he offered me a refund if I'm not satisfied, so I decided to buy one, and I'll compare it's performance with my current Spectral240 when I receive it.
The price for the 2.40m 16:9 screen, with a standard fixed frame is 2350€ (incl. 20% french VAT and shipping to my home).

I'll receive it by the end of the month.
and they don´t offer just the material for frame but only finished products ?
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Old 06-04-2015, 12:25 PM
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and they don´t offer just the material for frame but only finished products ?
I was looking for a finished product, my building-hacking skills aren't very good. My current home-made frame works well, and helped me save a lot of money when I made my system 4 years ago, but it's ugly.
I didn't ask for screen material alone.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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Old 06-04-2015, 12:45 PM
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I was looking for a finished product, my building-hacking skills aren't very good. My current home-made frame works well, and helped me save a lot of money when I made my system 4 years ago, but it's ugly.
I didn't ask for screen material alone.
did you check out the Premium HGA from MDI system ?. im eager to hear how good your screen is
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:05 PM
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I did not check for MDI-Strong's screens.
I am also very eager to try it.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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Old 06-05-2015, 08:25 AM
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The xtremscreen website is pretty crappy..or am i in the right page. kind of no categories ect just few pictures of screens ect.
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Old 06-05-2015, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
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The xtremscreen website is pretty crappy...
Yes it is ! (i told you their website was not done)

Waaoouuhh, they added the content of their company brochure as a welcome picture. What an amazing improvement ! (joke)
Two days ago, they just had their contact email and the "see you at IFA" youtube clip.
I believe their company is in initial "start-up" mode, where they are developping the product with a limited audience who are in-the-know and only launch it broadly later (at the next IFA trade show ?)

If you want real info about their screen, you have to call them, or browse the french forums where users review the screens.
The busyest thread I found was this one : http://www.cinetson.org/phpBB3/ecran...-9-t38125.html
I read quickly through all 81 pages : lots of people very impressed by the screen, taking pictures of how the screen looks (with ambient light) but they use it for 2D and active 3D only, none do passive 3D.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)


Last edited by BlackShark; 06-05-2015 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 06-06-2015, 06:03 AM
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Damn, it's in french :P
Anyway, let us know, how your screen is gonna perform, I am quite excited I thought I will go for Stuart 5D but perhaps I'll change my mind
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Old 06-06-2015, 08:52 AM
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I am currently preparing a new alignment and crosstalk test pattern. I have some difficulties lining up my projectors properly.
Usually people use long lines, It's fine for general alignment but when you reach the fine details, you don't know which line corresponds to which projector and loose a huge amount of time going back and forth to the projector to find out you moved in the wrong way.

Here are the features :
-white crosstalk test with 5% light increment from 0% to 50% grey.
-black crosstalk test with 5% light increment from 100% to 50% grey.
-individual primary colour bright crosstalk test with 5% light increment from 0% to 50% colour.
-individual Left and Right primary and secondary color comparison for calibration
-marked corners and alignment lines cross-crossing the pattern for main alignment
-alignment arrows pointing at each other only displayed by one eye : to fine-tune alignment
-moire check across the sides (the small scale makes it look grey, it's actually a succession of 1-pixel wide black and white lines), the final proof things are lined up if you see lines... or moire garbage if it is not.

It's still work in progress, I've left some room for other patterns but I'm out of ideas.
Can you think of any thing I should add ?

Download PNG - FullSBS (3840x1080)

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)


Last edited by BlackShark; 06-06-2015 at 11:54 AM.
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Old Today, 03:09 PM
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Has anyone tried the MDI screens High white 1.4. i did a intensity measure on my curved frame with 4 sample. 44 samples across the frame.
This not any scientific measurement. just took photos with my dslr at same settings and moving the sample
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