The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread - Page 79 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2341 of 2348 Old 07-21-2015, 01:29 AM
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We love you, BlackShark!!! Keep us reported of the prototype

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post #2342 of 2348 Old 07-21-2015, 04:20 AM
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Xtremscreen Daylight review part 2 : a visit to Xtremscreen's HQ in Strasbourg, France.


(images from Wikipedia)

Strasbourg, it's historic city center with narrow streets, old medieval houses, sweet winstubs (traditional food & wine restaurants), and it's towering Gothic cathedral in it's center,... such a great place to hang out, where we're not going today.

Xtremscreen's HQ is located in an industrial lot in the small town of Souffelweyersheim, just off the A4 highway at the outskirts of Strasbourg.

Laurent Fernandez and Franck Lapp, co-founders of Xtremscreen welcomed me, and helped me unload all my hardware.

The main focus of their showroom is a ceiling mounted rollable Daylight 0.9. Coupled with a beautiful Sony 4K laser projector, and they extended the screen far outside of the picture in order to create an optical illusion to prevent the brain from seeing the border of the screen : since the brain can no longer see the frame or the wall to contrast against the picture. It makes the picture pop so much more it's gorgeous....


ok I have to stop looking at this, it's completely outside of my price range let's go back to work.
We started working using one of their Daylight Reference 1.1 screens with a surprisingly thin but nice looking zero-edge frame.


As I said in the previous post, the Xtremscreen Daylight material keeps most of the polarization as the light bounces off the screen surface.
This doesn't matter at all for 2D use (our eyes cannot distinguish the difference between the different types of light polarization).
For active 3D use keeping polarization is interesting because it allows you to leverage more light out of LCD and LCoS projectors (LCD shutter glasses have a polarizing filter in them), but you'll have to use the manufacturer's glasses, because every manufacturer uses a different internal polarization for their projectors and glasses, and if you use the wrong combination, you'll get a completely black picture.
But for passive polarized 3D, you need more : you need the screen to maintain the polarization perfectly (more than 99% preservation). Every fraction of a percent of depolarized light will cause more and more crosstalk. And this is where the Daylight Reference 1.1 falls short. The screen is very usable, but there are lots of scenes where you can see crosstalk.
The Daylight 0.9 offers better light uniformity (I can't see any hotspot) it looks really great even though it's slightly dimmer, but it does slightly worse than the Daylight Reference 1.1 in terms of polarisation retention.

Fortunately Franck and Laurent brought samples of prototype screen material they made when they developed their screen materials. Some were mounted on a full-size screen, some were just 30x30cm samples.
One of them, a Daylight Reference 1.1 material with slightly modified formula stood out.

WOW ! The crosstalk is less than the 5% grey on the scale. This is an amazing result.
The screen behind the sample is the standard Daylight Reference 1.1, and it shows how dramatic of a difference it makes.
When I saw this, I instantly wanted to buy a screen made with this material. If you compare the whites, the greys and the black, the material looks extremely close to the Daylight Reference 1.1 in all other aspects (same gain, same clean picture).
This is significantly better than my Harkness Spectral 240 in every possible way.

Just out of curiosity we also tested samples from competitors.
Xtremscreens' main market is the high end, ambient-light resistant screen, with low hotspot and gains close to 1. The usage domain is mainly for traditional 2D and active 3D projectors which 99.9% of people use. So they do not test against silverscreens or super high gain screens.

This is Screen Innovations BlackDiamond 0.8 (and 1.4 in the little corner). These are not rated for passive 3D. SI does make a BlackDiamond material for passive 3D but it's 2.7 gain is considered too high by Xtremscreens to compete against. So it was no tested.

It was known for a while, the SI BD 0.8 and 1.4 are not suitable for polarized 3D. Again, we are not testing the SI BD 2.7 (which they claim works for passive 3D)

Here is an other competitor : DNP Supernova ambient-light resistant screen, which I believe is called the 08-85.

It's plain and simple : DNP supernova does not maintain polarization at all. (they do not claim anything regarding passive 3D, so no surprise here, just a confirmation)

So where does this leaves us :
Xtremscreen's prototype material is a winner. I want it on my screen ASAP ! Can I buy it ?
The answer is yes : I can buy it but with small restrictions.
First, I have to wait a little. The prototype material is slightly different from the official Daylight material, and it doesn't cope well with the stretchy PVC plastic support material all the other screens are made of.
The prototype material was applied to a rigid plate, they do have a full-size example screen using a similar material, and it is a nightmare to transport and mount. So after a lot of testing on how to transport such screens to customers, they finally decided not to sell screens on rigid plates : the screen has to be rollable.

Fortunately, in the last few months, Xtremscreens have been hard at work to be able to use a different, much more rigid but still flexible material for a different project based on PET plastic. They believe the prototype 3D material should work with this prototype support material but they want to test it first before selling one.
If it works, the material will be made available for everyone.
However : the prototype 3D material will only be made in limited quantity.

The material does not have an official name but because it looks so much like the Daylight Reference 1.1, I decided to call it : "Daylight 1.1, special polarized 3D edition". So if you contact them, you can use this name and they'll know which screen material you are talking about.

You also need to know that the "special polarized 3D edition" has some small differences when compared against the regular Daylight Reference 1.1 material.
The Daylight 1.1 special polarized 3D material has a slightly smaller view angle than the regular material (a little bit more hotspot), but as a result it should resist ambien light slightly better (but it's a very small difference).
The Reference 1.1 material produces so little hotspot, I'm not worried about a small increase. It should be fine.
It has a little bit more shimmering than the regular material. I couldn't see any from across the table, but if I walk up to the sample, then yes shimmering appears on the prototype sample, whereas it's very hard to see on the regular material even at close range.
It won't be a problem for me though, because at 3m, I can't see any. And even if I missed it, it would be very small, and the leap in crosstalk would be sooo much worth it.

Xtremscreen will stick to their current material for the broad Reference 1.1 screens, because it offers slightly better performance for 2D and active 3D users. They probably won't advertise this product in their showroom, or in any other showroom. So if you are interested by this product : you have to contact Xtremscreen directly (email on their website). It's a niche product, specially for "in the know" polarized 3D users.
If you are just a regular 2D projector user or use active 3D and found this thread, then you can stick with the regular Daylight line of screens (0.9 and 1.1 Reference). The "Daylight 1.1 special polarised 3D edition" is not for you.

I reserved the very first screen, I am eagerly waiting for the green light from the screen support material test. I can't wait !

If you are also interested by this screen material. Send them an email.
Pricing is not fixed, and since it probably won't be advertised : you have to send them an email to get an estimate.
If you are unsure, or if you just want more information on this screen material, do not hesitate to send them a mail anyway.
At the moment there is only a very limited production because it's such a niche product but if there is enough interest in this screen material, maybe they'll launch it into full production.

I would like to thank Laurent Fernandez and Franck Lapp from Xtremscreen for their hospitality, for their professionalism and for making such an amazing product.
(I'm the guy in the middle on the picture, the true heroes are on the left and right)

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)


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post #2343 of 2348 Unread 07-22-2015, 12:12 AM
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Excellent report, Blackshark!

I am very surprised, that the improved 1.1 gain sreen keeps polarization better than the HS 240 with more than twice that gain. And less than 5% crosstalk is an excellent result even for silver sreens I guess!



Damn, now I recall that I should have sent you a 1x1m sample of a cinema silver sreen from MW (gain >2), that we can have a reference point on polarization retention. I'll PM you later...
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post #2344 of 2348 Unread 07-22-2015, 02:59 AM
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If you have a polarized dual-projector setup, you can download the test pattern and test it directly yourself without having to send screen samples across the world.
The only thing yout have to be careful about is that I use linear polarization, that's all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post
Download PNG - FullSBS (3840x1080)

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #2345 of 2348 Unread 07-22-2015, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zorg43x View Post
I am very surprised, that the improved 1.1 gain sreen keeps polarization better than the HS 240 with more than twice that gain. And less than 5% crosstalk is an excellent result even for silver sreens I guess!
5% grey crosstalk for such a test is an extremely good value. According to the various pictures of other screens I've seen on the internet, silverscreens top at about 10% grey.

Notice that's a "grey" value (visual measurement) not a measurement by a light-meter. If you wanted to translate this into absolute crosstalk, there are a few operations you need to take into account : there is the gamma curve (50% grey is not 50% light) then there is the software gamma correction of the projectors which I have not measured, and then you have to take into account that the greyscale in the chart is shown in both eyes. So the calculation would be a bit messy.

If you were to measure the crosstalk with a light-meter, silverscreens and this prototype would be within the final 1% of crosstalk, and I guess the regular Xtremscreen Daylight Reference 1.1 would be somewhere between 2~5% crosstalk.
Indeed, a few fractions of a percent crosstalk make that much difference on screen.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #2346 of 2348 Unread Yesterday, 02:20 PM
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Here's the MPO version of Blackshark's updated test image. The MPO file is a jpeg type file with both left & right images in a single file. If loaded onto a thumbdrive or SD card, it can be used in many newer TVs to show the 3D image on screen. Some BD players also have the capability to take a thumbdrive or SD card with MPO files and generate the full HD 3D HDMI signal from it. Credits to Blackshark of course for the pattern. L&R alignment isn't applicable since TVs achieve (at least they should achieve) pixel perfect alignment between the images.
While active 3D sets should get theoretically better crosstalk figures than passive sets, crosstalk can exist due to imperfections in the glasses and timing between the set and the shutter glasses, so Blackshark's test pattern is valuable for checking both types (if you're interested in doing that).

Note: Since MPO files aren't listed in the acceptable uploadable file types, I don't think I can post it as such, but here's the workaround. I changed the file extension to jpg which will upload. If you download this file, just change the extension back to mpo and it should work. Actually the mpo will open as a jpeg with some viewers and show just the left image, but the mpo has both images and on the proper devices will produce a 3D image.
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Name:	BlackShark_alignment_FullHD.jpg
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post #2347 of 2348 Unread Today, 12:22 AM
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Actually, passive TVs have a 1 pixel offset and only half the lines. The pattern will probably still be interesting to analyse how well the resolution interpolation filter works inside the TV.
I tested it with my passive Zalman 22" monitor (same technology as LG's FPR), I get about 10% grey crosstalk if I'm exactly at the right spot (but the spot is super narrow)

I noticed you used the previous version of the pattern for the mpo file. Can you do it again with the latest (hopefully final) version ?

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)


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post #2348 of 2348 Unread Today, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post
Actually, passive TVs have a 1 pixel offset and only half the lines...........

I noticed you used the previous version of the pattern for the mpo file. Can you do it again with the latest (hopefully final) version ?

You're quite right Blackshark and I probably should have said "near" pixel perfect alignment. Interestingly, when you see the images your eyes adjust to that slight vertical misalignment and you see an aligned image with black raster lines between the active lines (one of the failings of passive 3D sets). Of course, the viewed image on passive sets is only half the vertical resolution because it makes use of only 540 lines per image (L&R).

Sorry I grabbed the wrong file when I attached it. Here's the mpo using your latest test image. Again, it's attached with a jpg extension - change that back to mpo after you've saved it.
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