The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread - Page 81 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2401 of 2420 Old 03-21-2016, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by jaychatbonneau View Post
I am also taking a hard look at Black Diamond 2.7. Has any seempn this material in use for passive 3D?
I have tested a large sample of that material any my thoughts are here: Discussion - Screens for 3D Projection
Definitely get a sample from your dealer or supplier there. Also get a sample of the different Visionaire versions to compare and then test them both. They will appear to be very different based on the screen gain, throw, light fall off and polarisation retention.

What type of passive 3D (circular|linear|infitec) are you looking at? If it's linear or circular then you should definitely check what type of polarised or unpolarised light is coming out of your projectors. I think in another thread you mentioned a Sony, and I'm not sure if anyone here has checked what type of polarised light they are throwing these days.
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post #2402 of 2420 Old 04-29-2016, 10:51 AM
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Yes - I tried this and in my case it wasn't possible. The Omega and other color filtering solutions essentially remove various opposing light bandwidths from each color channel. When you try and calibrate each channel individually with the filters in place to something like REC.709 you can't get that color channel information back so it won't work.

I have balanced the gamut thru my omega filters with great success many times, if youre using decent full spectrum UHP/DLP projectors the color balance is so close natively it takes very little adjustment.
there are photos ( that do not so the system justice) posted on here showing exactly this.
i have not used the lumagen units but I do not see why one could not. unfortunately if you are trying to correct a narrowband RGB spectrum like from an LCD or other spectrum compromised projectors it will be hard to get a color filter system to work without cinema grade color processing as is needed with the infitec / dolby setup to function at all.
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post #2403 of 2420 Old 04-30-2016, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by motorman5 View Post
I have balanced the gamut thru my omega filters with great success many times, if youre using decent full spectrum UHP/DLP projectors the color balance is so close natively it takes very little adjustment.
there are photos ( that do not so the system justice) posted on here showing exactly this.
i have not used the lumagen units but I do not see why one could not. unfortunately if you are trying to correct a narrowband RGB spectrum like from an LCD or other spectrum compromised projectors it will be hard to get a color filter system to work without cinema grade color processing as is needed with the infitec / dolby setup to function at all.
Hi Motorman and welcome back! I am sure that if you are using decent full spectrum projectors then it probably wouldn't require much adjustment. For those in the LCD space though it is definitely more challenging for the reason you describe.

So lets say on the DLP side that you did have reasonable units with a decent full spectrum output. If you were to try and color balance this using measuring tools (sensors, calibration software, etc) how would you suggest people do that in order to get the absolute best results?
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post #2404 of 2420 Old 04-30-2016, 04:20 PM
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Thanks for the welcome back. I had lost interest for a time after leaving omega but my love of projection tech drew me back.


I would have to say from my experience that you have to define absolute best, or perfect. I got to play with some of the best cinema systems and instruments, doing system setups for some premier theaters- and then losing all budget and re creating the system with no real backing and moving to inexpensive home projectors and id have to say that home owners with $2-4000 worth of equipment are more concerned about color balance than Disney was.
with that said, to get an omega 3d passive setup as good as it can be with any given set of projectors you need to start with a good stereo color pattern. I made and posted here ( the official omega 3d thread) at least one. and make any adjustments as viewed thru the glasses. that means if one is using a spectrograph or other measuring device it needs to "see" the filtered color test shot thru the eye lens. they are designed to work as a pair and are not the same filter.
It is worth trying each pair ( projector filter and eye piece of the same eye ) on both projectors as there is usually a difference in color performance of projectors. the hardest will be to get the blues to match usually or a despairaty in red hues. with a good stereo color image where both eyes can see the same color strips split in the middle you can get a good visual balance.


as long as one watches a movie with both eyes open and dose not see any distracting color differences the sharp ghost free image usually is more captivating than subtle hues differences. as soon as one starts closing or covering one eye at a time and scanning the screen for differences you will find flaw in almost any stereo images. shutter glasses and polarizers suffer the same flaw with hue changes as you turn your head and cover one eye at a time and seek out flaws.


LCD especially JVC in my experience has so much color cut out of the image that it is harder to get balance, but I had a very good contact in Japan that worked hard at making the best of the issue with some high end JVC units and he liked it but ultimately shutter glasses are better for these types of projectors in the end due to a lack of low wavelength blue and narrow green output.


when customers in the past have asked us when buying our filters what projectors to use we had a list of recommended units that performed beautifully and 95% id say just loved it with no complaints.


sorry if I run on. I spent many years developing and working with stereo 3d and ways to improve it. I was working on 6p laser systems but I don't see them being wide spread as the projectors and lasers are so expensive, need a vibrating silver screen ( so far) and dual projectors with a color correction server. many theater chains other than imax will not spend the $$ on them and so close on the heels of going digital with the DCI. they are cool
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post #2405 of 2420 Old 04-30-2016, 05:18 PM
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another note on color calibration thru filters is that you need to have your measuring device see thru the center of the lens and not incorporate the edges as they are different. not just omega 3d but any filter 3d.
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post #2406 of 2420 Old 05-02-2016, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by motorman5 View Post
LCD especially JVC in my experience has so much color cut out of the image that it is harder to get balance, but I had a very good contact in Japan that worked hard at making the best of the issue with some high end JVC units and he liked it but ultimately shutter glasses are better for these types of projectors in the end due to a lack of low wavelength blue and narrow green output.
So true... I'm using dual x3 with Dolby 3D system and it was hard enough to get comfortable color balance, still far away from final goal but unfortunately my wife cannot watch active 3D.. I read some time ago that you have developed special jvc version of omega filters but unfortunately you take a break there. Now I'm trying use madvr 3dlut for each projector using Jack-Bauer's color tables but no luck so far. Maybe you can suggest something? Thank you and welcome back, Motorman!

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post #2407 of 2420 Old 05-03-2016, 08:14 AM
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Ag4t , I feel your pain. im not sure there is a solution to get dolby to work on a jvc. there simply is not light at certain bands that match up to the dolby spectrum.
a 3dlut is the best way to go, the omega 3d system would work much better than the dolby on your x3's as the spectral output would be broken into 10 bands across the visible instead of 6. the custom set I made for my JVC friend in japan is what my lcd filter version offered from omega is now, I custom cut filters to fit at the front of his lamp housing so they were internal, but they worked ok outside as well. he posted some test images on the web but I don't think they are up anymore. he wasn't using a 3dlut and it was decent but not up to standard as compared to polarizing or shutters.
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Hi guys, is there a source to buy a pair or two of Dolby 3D (6P) passive glasses?

I want to experiment and get into passive dual projector 3D and was wondering how people acquired some (just keep it from visiting the cinema?) and what model to buy. I guess CAT 832 is the current type?

Also, does anyone know the precise wavelengths used for the 6P lasers in Dolby 3D laser cinemas? Are they near the rec 2020 primaries or based on DCI P3 wavelengths? I'm guessing probably P3 since that would be more efficient if the source video content is only mastered to DCI P3 to begin with. Is there any rec 2020 content in Dolby Cinema yet? I'm planning on seeing Star Trek Beyond when it comes out next month and want to be able to get some of those glasses for my home system to play around with filters / lasers etc.

Any information would be greatly appreciated. All I found so far was in this link.
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post #2409 of 2420 Old 07-13-2016, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
Hi guys, is there a source to buy a pair or two of Dolby 3D (6P) passive glasses?

I want to experiment and get into passive dual projector 3D and was wondering how people acquired some (just keep it from visiting the cinema?) and what model to buy. I guess CAT 832 is the current type?

Also, does anyone know the precise wavelengths used for the 6P lasers in Dolby 3D laser cinemas? Are they near the rec 2020 primaries or based on DCI P3 wavelengths? I'm guessing probably P3 since that would be more efficient if the source video content is only mastered to DCI P3 to begin with. Is there any rec 2020 content in Dolby Cinema yet? I'm planning on seeing Star Trek Beyond when it comes out next month and want to be able to get some of those glasses for my home system to play around with filters / lasers etc.

Any information would be greatly appreciated. All I found so far was in this link.

I have worked with these coatings and I can tell you it will be Very hard to get them to work with any projector other than the cinema ones they are intended to function with. im not trying to discourage you from grabbing a pair or tinkering I just know how closer the pairs of red blue and green lasers are and how hard the coatings are to make to start with. there is no way to get any kind of color balance with this system other than with the color processor that is incorporated into the servers that run the projection laser system. the filters in the glasses are just triple edge filters. you can still get the omega 3d system while filter last. not sure if they make the glasses anymore, but there are some to be had on ebay still.
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post #2410 of 2420 Old 07-13-2016, 05:55 PM
 
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Thanks, I've got a bunch of cat 832s coming in from Ebay already.

I'm not too worried about the light loss from using the glasses in front of the projector, I'm more interested in the wavelengths of the primaries which I can't seem to find anywhere. I guess it's probably DCI P3, nothing else really makes sense for commercial cinemas.

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post #2411 of 2420 Old 07-14-2016, 04:48 PM
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the 6p glasses don't use any primary color bands. the two lenses do not even block out the other lens spectrum fully. all each lens has to do is block three very narrow bands of the lasers used for the opposite eye and then pass three narrow bands of the lasers used for its own "eye". aside from the spectrum blocked by each eye lens the rest of the visible is passed making it have little in common with the other two multi band filter systems. some of the laser pairs like the green are barely 12nm apart.
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post #2412 of 2420 Old 08-01-2016, 01:55 AM
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The two links in the first post give me a 404 error. I found a working link for the second file at least. (not enough karma to make it a link)
meadowlark.com/store/applicationNotes/Basic%20Polarization%20Techniques%20and%20Devices. pdf
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post #2413 of 2420 Old 09-10-2016, 10:43 AM
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Hello everyone, I would like to inform everybody that I switching to an Nvidia GPU (GTX 1070) the main goal is to try and leverage the nVidia 3D Vision driver an all it's ecosystem (and all the user's community bugfixes !), in addition to Tridef to play PC games in 3D on my dual projector system.

I got 3DTV play (14 day trial) to work through hdmi1.4 and the Geobox 501 converter, but I am limited to 1080p24 720p60 resolutions.
I would like to up the resolution to full 1080p60 stereo (through DisplayPort or DVI DL).
I do not own the 3D vision USB emitter (the little pyramid IR emitter) which supposedly unlocks the 3D vision software, so I am trying to use an EDID override to make 3D vision believe I am using a certified monitor to enable 1080p 120Hz frame sequential mode (for full 1080p60 stereo).
I am having partial success when using the EDID of a 3D vision monitor with embedded IR emitter.
The driver does believe I use such a display, it unlocks the frame sequential mode. (works for both DVI DL and DisplayPort, I choose DP, it also allows 3840x1080 for Tridef side by side)
The Geobox does understand the format and I am getting a good looking left and right eye views (the frame ordering is random upon initialisation so I must turn on and off 3D as many times as needed until I get the proper frame ordering. So it looked very promising... until...

After running fine for about 3 seconds, the driver starts having micro-freezes approximately every half of a second and the entire computer becomes almost unusable.
I know it's a computer freeze and not a Geobox desync due to the computer not registering keyboard or mouse inputs. (it does record mouse movement though, but nothing else, no clicks and not even CTRL ALT DEL, probably a built-in mouse memory).
I have tried multiple EDIDs, for multiple different monitors, I even modified them to make sure the timings were the same as the ones I used with AMD HD3D. But to no avail.

I wonder if the 3D Vision driver would be attempting to establish some form of communication with the display, not receive it, time-out, and create the freezes.
Has anyone else tried running a dual projector setup with NVidia's software. How did you manage to get it running ?
Thanks

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)


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post #2414 of 2420 Old 09-12-2016, 03:48 AM
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I wonder if the 3D Vision driver would be attempting to establish some form of communication with the display, not receive it, time-out, and create the freezes.
Has anyone else tried running a dual projector setup with NVidia's software. How did you manage to get it running ?
Thanks
Hello BlackShark. I'm using 2 jvc with nvidia quadro, but only for movies, not games. There is some difference in drivers between quadro and GeForce so maybe this cause issue?
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post #2415 of 2420 Old 09-12-2016, 03:56 AM
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Also here and here some info about setup dual projectors using nvidia quadro cards.
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post #2416 of 2420 Old 09-12-2016, 06:36 AM
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There is some difference in drivers between quadro and GeForce so maybe this cause issue?
Yes it is.
Nvidia locks away the stereoscopic 3D types on consumer cards.
It's 100% auto-detect based. If the nvidia driver doesn't recognize your 3D display (it's based on a white list), you only get anaglyph.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #2417 of 2420 Old 03-02-2017, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
I have an Infitec passive 3D splitter (Geobox G-501 splitter) and a few Dolby 3D glasses from Infitec. I contacted Infitec but they are not allowed/willing to sell me the filters to put in front of the projector lenses. Is there another way where I can get filters?
How comfortable are the Infitec glasses?
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post #2418 of 2420 Old 05-01-2017, 04:22 AM
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I've been thinking for a while about which projector to choose if I were to replace my ageing pair of Epson EH-TW3500.

At the moment my favourite candidate would be the Sony VPL-HW45ES.

This projector has the following characteristics :
- price : approx 2000€ per projector
- tri-SXRD panel (Sony's brand of LCoS)
- adjustable panel alignment (for perfect primary colour alignment)
- great lens shift : 71% vertical, 25% horizontal
- similar brightness to my current projectors (1800 lumen)
- significantly improved contrast
- designed to work without a dynamic iris (best contrast for dual-pj stereo !)
- whisper quiet
- gaming capable with low-input lag mode (online reviews say it's about 30ms, not as great as my current Epsons 20ms but they are from an very different generation with very little processing)
- lens barrel clearly sticking out of the assembly (ability to reuse my current filter mount system for easy setup)

The unknowns are how this projector behaves with polarizing filters and/or Omega filters
I've been lucky, one of my friends recently bought one, so I visited him to give it a try.
Here are my findings :

For polarized use :
The Sony VPL-HW45ES light output is non-polarized in all colour modes and all lamp intensities modes.
Since LCoS panels are based on polarization, Sony must have installed some type of optical device in the output beam that breaks the polarization.
The non-polarized light output means :
- simple polarizing filters will work regardless of the type (linear or circular) or chosen angles (0°/90° or 45°/135°).
- uniform colour and brightness across the picture when using a polarizing filter
- but as a drawback : you cannot use the internal polarization to avoid the light losses
- for active 3D : using a non-depolarizing screen will not affect the light with active 3D glasses

The light output in low lamp mode appears a bit brighter than my Epsons in low lamp mode. It will help compensate for the light losses from the non-polarized light but may not be enough. I may want to run the projector in a higher lamp mode to obtain the same brightness (I prefer my picture significantly brighter than the usual cinema conventions). My friend uses the exact same screen size and gain as me so the light output on his system will match what I would get on my system.

For Omega use :
I checked the colour output with the Omega filters for LCD version.
The projector was calibrated for 2D use before putting the filters in front of the beam, and I did not modify the colour settings because I did not want to break my friends calibrated 2D settings.
White balance shifts sightly to yellow in the left eye, blue in the right eye.
Colour brightness appears balanced across the entire colour wheel except a brightness dip for the colour red in the right eye (as usual with Omega filters when using projectors with UHP lamps).
Without correcting the white balance, the Sony VPL-HW45ES fares better than my previous Epson EH-TW3500 :
- The right eye red brightness dip is less hard (small eye rivalry, not the hard one of my old Epsons)
- Colours around red (orange and purple) are less affected by the lack of red in the right eye
- Blue Appears to be very close in both eyes
- The colour mismatch in the green section of the chart is less pronounced
- Cyan exists in the right eye ! (no grey cyan like with my old Epsons)

I have not tweaked the colours to try and match them, nor tried to recalibrate than since I did no have a calibration sensor to return the configuration back to normal for 2D. But I believe the two eyes can at least be colour matched using the projector's colour correction tools (except red in the right eye of course).

Other non-passive-3D related findings about the Sony VPL-HW45ES :
- With the default image processing, input lag can clearly be felt and is very annoying.
- With the simple setting "input lag reduction mode" on, the situation improves significantly, I can forget the input lag although it does not disappear entirely if I'm actively looking for it. We did not try to turn every option off to get the absolute minimum input lag possible, it was not the point of the test. (we turned off creative frame interpolation, but did not turn off all the other image processing systems). I'm confident this projector can be used for any type of games as long as it's non-competitve.
- With the lens shift at it's maximum (downwards position), a small lens barrel distortion is visible at the bottom of the image (Windows start menu and task bar do not follow the edge of the frame perfectly). No deal breaker, but it's there.
- It looks like the picture is not framed perfectly out of the SXRD chip : there is a thin frame of black light around the picture like if the picture was slightly digitally zoomed in. We couldn't find a setting to remove this. It is strange. Maybe we missed something ?
It's not a big deal on my system since I have a fat black velvet frame, but my friend uses a zero-edge style frame and the black light bleeds over the white wall around the frame : it is clearly visible when the image shows a dark scene.
- Sony's menu system is not very logical. Some options are in weird places, and the ergonomics of selecting/validating/returning to previous menu are not consistent. (sometimes you press back to validate, sometimes you press ok, sometimes you press menu... it's a mess)

Overall, I would love to replace my old Epsons with a pair of Sony VPL-HW45ES... So far I have not seen a better proposition for the price (my max budget would be 2000€ per projector). But I'll need to wait a little bit because my home cinema budget is dry at the moment since I bought the new screen last Christmas.
I'll probably have to wait until next year to justify the purchase. And hopefully, if Sony releases a successor to this projector, maybe I can get a discount ?

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)


Last edited by BlackShark; 05-01-2017 at 04:30 AM.
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post #2419 of 2420 Old 05-08-2017, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post
I've been thinking for a while about which projector to choose if I were to replace my ageing pair of Epson EH-TW3500.

At the moment my favourite candidate would be the Sony VPL-HW45ES.

This projector has the following characteristics :
- price : approx 2000€ per projector
- tri-SXRD panel (Sony's brand of LCoS)
- adjustable panel alignment (for perfect primary colour alignment)
- great lens shift : 71% vertical, 25% horizontal
- similar brightness to my current projectors (1800 lumen)
- significantly improved contrast
- designed to work without a dynamic iris (best contrast for dual-pj stereo !)
- whisper quiet
- gaming capable with low-input lag mode (online reviews say it's about 30ms, not as great as my current Epsons 20ms but they are from an very different generation with very little processing)
- lens barrel clearly sticking out of the assembly (ability to reuse my current filter mount system for easy setup)

The unknowns are how this projector behaves with polarizing filters and/or Omega filters
I've been lucky, one of my friends recently bought one, so I visited him to give it a try.
Here are my findings :

For polarized use :
The Sony VPL-HW45ES light output is non-polarized in all colour modes and all lamp intensities modes.
Since LCoS panels are based on polarization, Sony must have installed some type of optical device in the output beam that breaks the polarization.
The non-polarized light output means :
- simple polarizing filters will work regardless of the type (linear or circular) or chosen angles (0°/90° or 45°/135°).
- uniform colour and brightness across the picture when using a polarizing filter
- but as a drawback : you cannot use the internal polarization to avoid the light losses
- for active 3D : using a non-depolarizing screen will not affect the light with active 3D glasses

The light output in low lamp mode appears a bit brighter than my Epsons in low lamp mode. It will help compensate for the light losses from the non-polarized light but may not be enough. I may want to run the projector in a higher lamp mode to obtain the same brightness (I prefer my picture significantly brighter than the usual cinema conventions). My friend uses the exact same screen size and gain as me so the light output on his system will match what I would get on my system.

For Omega use :
I checked the colour output with the Omega filters for LCD version.
The projector was calibrated for 2D use before putting the filters in front of the beam, and I did not modify the colour settings because I did not want to break my friends calibrated 2D settings.
White balance shifts sightly to yellow in the left eye, blue in the right eye.
Colour brightness appears balanced across the entire colour wheel except a brightness dip for the colour red in the right eye (as usual with Omega filters when using projectors with UHP lamps).
Without correcting the white balance, the Sony VPL-HW45ES fares better than my previous Epson EH-TW3500 :
- The right eye red brightness dip is less hard (small eye rivalry, not the hard one of my old Epsons)
- Colours around red (orange and purple) are less affected by the lack of red in the right eye
- Blue Appears to be very close in both eyes
- The colour mismatch in the green section of the chart is less pronounced
- Cyan exists in the right eye ! (no grey cyan like with my old Epsons)

I have not tweaked the colours to try and match them, nor tried to recalibrate than since I did no have a calibration sensor to return the configuration back to normal for 2D. But I believe the two eyes can at least be colour matched using the projector's colour correction tools (except red in the right eye of course).

Other non-passive-3D related findings about the Sony VPL-HW45ES :
- With the default image processing, input lag can clearly be felt and is very annoying.
- With the simple setting "input lag reduction mode" on, the situation improves significantly, I can forget the input lag although it does not disappear entirely if I'm actively looking for it. We did not try to turn every option off to get the absolute minimum input lag possible, it was not the point of the test. (we turned off creative frame interpolation, but did not turn off all the other image processing systems). I'm confident this projector can be used for any type of games as long as it's non-competitve.
- With the lens shift at it's maximum (downwards position), a small lens barrel distortion is visible at the bottom of the image (Windows start menu and task bar do not follow the edge of the frame perfectly). No deal breaker, but it's there.
- It looks like the picture is not framed perfectly out of the SXRD chip : there is a thin frame of black light around the picture like if the picture was slightly digitally zoomed in. We couldn't find a setting to remove this. It is strange. Maybe we missed something ?
It's not a big deal on my system since I have a fat black velvet frame, but my friend uses a zero-edge style frame and the black light bleeds over the white wall around the frame : it is clearly visible when the image shows a dark scene.
- Sony's menu system is not very logical. Some options are in weird places, and the ergonomics of selecting/validating/returning to previous menu are not consistent. (sometimes you press back to validate, sometimes you press ok, sometimes you press menu... it's a mess)

Overall, I would love to replace my old Epsons with a pair of Sony VPL-HW45ES... So far I have not seen a better proposition for the price (my max budget would be 2000€ per projector). But I'll need to wait a little bit because my home cinema budget is dry at the moment since I bought the new screen last Christmas.
I'll probably have to wait until next year to justify the purchase. And hopefully, if Sony releases a successor to this projector, maybe I can get a discount ?
Maybe try jvc? I'm sure there plenty of them in b-stock for 2k each. Also they are already polarized and all you need is retarder to rotate beam at desired degrees. But cons is lag. Anyway, for movies it's outstanding experience
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post #2420 of 2420 Old 05-09-2017, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Ag4t View Post
Maybe try jvc? I'm sure there plenty of them in b-stock for 2k each. Also they are already polarized and all you need is retarder to rotate beam at desired degrees. But cons is lag. Anyway, for movies it's outstanding experience
I play a lot of games on my system. Projectors without a low lag gaming mode is a no-go for me.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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