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Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

joerod's Avatar joerod
03:49 AM Liked: 128
post #61 of 1363
11-29-2010 | Posts: 22,190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I loved reading joerods review and very much respect his opinion, but in the end it is just one opinion. I also very much respect Petris thoughts since he actually has both machines right now (even though the X7 is pre-prod).

As Petri mentioned, the issues were so blatantly obvious on the pre-prod X7that you would have to think these will be ironed out with the final units .............if not JVC is in trouble and the good thing is we should all know in plenty of time so we can cancel our orders if needed

Petris latest comments about RE:A cant be ignored IMO between these 2 machines...........clearly the verdict is still out IMO and the fact that the much cheaper JVCs are still in the running is very impressive dont you think Chuck?

Sounds like your mind is already made up before seeing either though? Why even waste your cash on the 40 if you have already made up your mind? Also, why not grab a 50 to compare with the 90 which would be a better comparison?

Have you fired up the 93 yet? If so, what are your thoughts on that? I hope to get one shipped out this coming week so I can play with it a bit before the projector arrives.

I think a lot has to do with how the 3D title was done. Clash of the Titans 3D is probably my weakest title. It does not look as good as the rest on both the VW90 and the Mits WD65738. That and My Bloody Valentine 3D has some scenes that are not too hot...
pteittinen's Avatar pteittinen
04:27 AM Liked: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogone View Post

"How to train a Dragon" is supposed to have steller 3D to check out.

Yes, the stereography in that is fantastic. It's a pretty good movie, too.
joerod's Avatar joerod
04:34 AM Liked: 128
post #63 of 1363
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I will have to get a copy of How To Train Your Dragon 3D...
thrang's Avatar thrang
10:48 AM Liked: 202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

As it has been already reported I have been using the Xpand X103s with the VW90ES with much better results. My guests even liked them much more afrter doing an A/B comparison. We watched A Christmas Carol in 3D and I did not get one head ache or eye strain complaint. AVS is selling these at a good price. I plan to modify my Review mentioning them.

Joe

Do you think you see this because you are using a polarizing preserving screen (Silverstar is, I think, right?) I'm using a DaLite HP 2.8 screen, so is it possible the x103 would be no different than the Sony in terms of brightness? Or does the clip-on filter for the Sony glasses just block more light because of the multi-layer approach?
joerod's Avatar joerod
01:10 PM Liked: 128
post #65 of 1363
11-29-2010 | Posts: 22,190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Joe

Do you think you see this because you are using a polarizing preserving screen (Silverstar is, I think, right?) I'm using a DaLite HP 2.8 screen, so is it possible the x103 would be no different than the Sony in terms of brightness? Or does the clip-on filter for the Sony glasses just block more light because of the multi-layer approach?

That's a great question but quite honestly doing the same exact scene using both glasses the 103s are just brighter. Plus they shutter faster so they do cause less eye strain and reduce the possibility of head aches by 48.7%. Just kidding on the last part but I think the filters hurt the Sony glasses in some capacity. I say use the Xpand X103s for best results.
joerod's Avatar joerod
01:13 PM Liked: 128
post #66 of 1363
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My gf was saying to her 3D looked better on the Mits WD65738 using their glasses. Now using the 103s on the VW90ES she claims to her eyes it is just as good as the Mits. Either way using the Sony 3D glasses she complained her eyes were bothering her after about 10 minutes or so. Not the case with the 103s. We went at it for over 30 minutes testing and she never complained once. Now I plan to use 103s on both displays...
Dr. Spankenstein's Avatar Dr. Spankenstein
02:59 PM Liked: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

We went at it for over 30 minutes "testing" and she never complained once.

Just to prove: It's all about context!
joerod's Avatar joerod
04:33 PM Liked: 128
post #68 of 1363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Spankenstein View Post
Just to prove: It's all about context!
Ha ha now that is funny.
dogone's Avatar dogone
07:22 PM Liked: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

We went at it for over 30 minutes testing and she never complained once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Ha ha now that is funny.

Joe...if I went over and over it for 30 minutes "just testing"...I'd be in trouble... She'd be complaining!...lol.
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich
07:42 PM Liked: 697
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Are the add on polarizers for the Sony vertical polarizers or horizontal?


Lets do a little test. If the glasses are not switched on and one turns the contrast down and looks through the glasses at the lens, which glasses are brighter? It would seem to me th at whatever glasses have the correct alignment with the light coming out of the Sony would be the brightness absent other things like how long the shutters are open when turned on.
thrang's Avatar thrang
08:01 PM Liked: 202
post #71 of 1363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogone View Post

Joe...if I went over and over it for 30 minutes "just testing"...I'd be in trouble... She'd be complaining!...lol.

Well it would all depend if you were passing or failing the test....

Anyway, looks like my 90 delivery is slipping to Thursday, so the anticipation continues a bit more. I bought a pair of x103's and will compare to the sony's on my HP screen.
dogone's Avatar dogone
08:05 PM Liked: 10
post #72 of 1363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Well it would all depend if you were passing or failing the test....

Touche, my good man...touche! ...
zombie10k's Avatar zombie10k
09:33 PM Liked: 475
post #73 of 1363
11-29-2010 | Posts: 7,980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Well it would all depend if you were passing or failing the test....

Anyway, looks like my 90 delivery is slipping to Thursday, so the anticipation continues a bit more. I bought a pair of x103's and will compare to the sony's on my HP screen.

Thrang - great setup, right up my alley.. HP screen (is this a cinema contour?) and a center mounted projector for max gain. This should be great for the 3D output and the light sucking shutter glasses. I am toying with a 3D DLP acer and an HTPC on the HP screen now and it looks great.

I am curious to hear your comments, especially with the HP screen on the new Sony. I have a JVC on pre-order, but 3D is going to be important and anxiously awaiting to hear the comparisons of both projectors. Maybe it will be worth spring the extra $$ if the Sony turns out to be the better 3D projector.

btw, nice 10+ TB NAS, I am right there with you with similar storage. My entire archive is accessible through a single interface in MCE7 and just added the Quad Ceton tuner.
thrang's Avatar thrang
09:38 PM Liked: 202
post #74 of 1363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Thrang - great setup, right up my alley.. HP screen (is this a cinema contour?) and a center mounted projector for max gain. This should be great for the 3D output and the light sucking shutter glasses. I am toying with a 3D DLP acer and an HTPC on the HP screen now and it looks great.

I am curious to hear your comments, especially with the HP screen on the new Sony. I have a JVC on pre-order, but 3D is going to be important and anxiously awaiting to hear the comparisons of both projectors. Maybe it will be worth spring the extra $$ if the Sony turns out to be the better 3D projector.

btw, nice 10+ TB NAS, I am right there with you with similar storage. My entire archive is accessible through a single interface in MCE7 and just added the Quad Ceton tuner.

Yes, 133 Cinema Contour. With my current 85, I'm running in low lamp mode, typically MotionFlow 2 (which reduces brightness), and manual iris between 0 and 40 depending upon content - so I'm hoping I have the headroom for compensation once I enter the dark and murky world of 3D (plus, the 90es is alleged to be 25 brighter than the 85, which further helps)

We'll see...(whether I see adequately or dimly is another story...)

How's that Ceton tuner? Was considering that...
conan48's Avatar conan48
08:15 AM Liked: 259
post #75 of 1363
11-30-2010 | Posts: 2,258
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I should also be getting mine on thursday Were both most likely getting it from the first shipment to Canada. It shipped from Vancouver instead of Toronto and thats why it was delayed a few days. Hopefully they don't stomp kick the **** out of the box before it gets here (many Sony haters around)

I think FI in 3D is going to be HUGE feature. I watched some underwater and nature stuff on a flat panel sony with FI in 3D and WOW. The sense of immersion is magnified alot when you add FI to 3D. Everything becomes even more real. Animation also benefits a lot(70% of 3D is animation right now) from FI. They even showed some stupid live action movie with ferrets, or hedgehogs in hamster balls with FI on and again the 3D effect was amazing more fluid. The soap Opera effect doesnt seem as bad in 3D for some reason. Maybe because 3D is supposed to be more "realistic" live action movies with FI in 3D aren't as soapy looking as FI without 3D which I can't stand.

I hope to post a review this weekend and I do have an Acer to compare it too. It's too bad an HP screen won't work with my setup (8 foot ceiling mounted projector and the screen is 12 feet away close to the ceiling) Gotta wait for some new type of screen I guess. Im not obsessed with lumens like some people on this forum. I actually like a dim picture for some reason in my batcave (so dark I can't see my hand in front of my face with lights off) I run my Epson in Natural low mode with over 2000 hours on the lamp and it's way more then bright enough for my Carada 1.4 screen. I know im getting under 400 lumens in 2D and it's fine. Hopefully 200 will be enough for 3D

Also, not to start a vs. JVC thing again, but Im not sure why MANY people have said that the JVC is much brighter in 3D then the Sony, when Ekki measured both the Sony and JVC at around 220 lumens in 3D and said that ghosting was less visible on one or the other, depending on the scene. Seems like a draw for 3D, other then the FI in 3D which Ekki really liked on the Sony. Also remember the Samsung flat panels had crazy ghosting on them and much of that was fixed with firmware updates to better sync the glasses. If enough people complain their will also most likely be updates to help with corsstalk. To bad firmware can't fix light loss?
omicronian's Avatar omicronian
09:12 AM Liked: 10
post #76 of 1363
11-30-2010 | Posts: 368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Are the add on polarizers for the Sony vertical polarizers or horizontal?
The sony glasses are vertical, but the projector is circular. So theres no change of brightness with horizontal versus vertical polarized glasses (or tilting the head). It's equally dim I don't know why measurements puts the JVC and Sony as equally bright... But I can say, intuitively, I don't feel like I'm getting anywhere close to 170 lumens with the sony glasses.
pteittinen's Avatar pteittinen
09:27 AM Liked: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post
The soap Opera effect doesnt seem as bad in 3D for some reason. Maybe because 3D is supposed to be more "realistic" live action movies with FI in 3D aren't as soapy looking as FI without 3D which I can't stand.
If you hate what FI does to 2D live action movies, you're going to hate what FI does to 3D live action movies even more. I'm not saying that FI can't enhance certain kinds of content, but I'm saying it absolutely ruins some 3D content.
thrang's Avatar thrang
09:57 AM Liked: 202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post
If you hate what FI does to 2D live action movies, you're going to hate what FI does to 3D live action movies even more. I'm not saying that FI can't enhance certain kinds of content, but I'm saying it absolutely ruins some 3D content.
To be clear, by FI we're referring to the Motion Enhancer feature on the Sony's?

I'm sure it's not usable because of the light loss, but is the Film Projection Mode (Motionflow/Dark Frame Insertion) available in 3D?

I think Sony's implementation of FI (Motion Enhancer) is much better than what I saw with Epson (1080UB and 9500). I use the Motion Enhancer in Low or High mode for all sports, and low or off for other content.

Film Projection Mode is well implemented on the 85 as well, and helps smooth out motion on film content without the Spanish-novella effect. But because of the light loss, I doubt this is usable in 3d...
conan48's Avatar conan48
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Maybe you should try the Xpand glasses. Petri and Ekki both measured over 200 in bright mode. I can't remember the measurements for the JVC.

Yes FI ruins the film look but I kinda liked the extra 3dishness it adds to even live action. It's not like were going to watch serious dramas in 3D anyway. It's mostly nonsense like Pirranha 3D or Resident Evil anyway right now. It would reduce all judder even at low mode with Soap effect. Only high mode gives Soap effect.
conan48's Avatar conan48
10:03 AM Liked: 259
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black frame insertion is what causes light loss, not FI. There are modes on the sony that allow both to be active at the same time (light loss) or you can just turn on the FI without the BFI and there is no light loss.
thrang's Avatar thrang
10:04 AM Liked: 202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post
black frame insertion is what causes light loss, not FI. There are modes on the sony that allow both to be active at the same time (light loss) or you can just turn on the FI without the BFI and there is no light loss.
Yes, I know - I was asking if DFI was even an option in 3D...
pteittinen's Avatar pteittinen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post
It's not like were going to watch serious dramas in 3D anyway.
I most definitely want to. Can't wait to see what Scorsese manages to do with 3D.
joerod's Avatar joerod
10:24 AM Liked: 128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Yes, I know - I was asking if DFI was even an option in 3D...
It is not.
Toe's Avatar Toe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

If you hate what FI does to 2D live action movies, you're going to hate what FI does to 3D live action movies even more. I'm not saying that FI can't enhance certain kinds of content, but I'm saying it absolutely ruins some 3D content.

I figured this would be the case for live action movies, but how about IMAX type 3d films Petri? I would think FI in 3d for this type of material (as well as concerts, sports, etc......) would bring it to the next level since realism is the name of the game with these documentaries.
VGI's Avatar VGI
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Joe, The Xpand you think look better than the sony's ? We saw the Xpand on our Pana 65 3d and thought they looked aweful..

As far as shuttering... They all have to shutter at the same rate, the speed is determined by the frame rate and its fixed and synced by the Led Flashers, otherwise you wouldn't see it in 3d ..

Let me know what you think over the next week as I have been pushing the sony glasses but if you think the Xpands are better , i will have to get some to look at again.

Thanks
craig
thrang's Avatar thrang
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

It is not.

Thanks Joe.

At this point, you've probably run through every bit of whatever little 3D content there is...finding out anything more, good or bad, with your overall experiences/settings...?
joerod's Avatar joerod
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I will have to do an update on my latest soon. Good idea.
I am really busy on the job right now. End of year surgery deductable time.
Joseph Clark's Avatar Joseph Clark
12:36 PM Liked: 196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Maybe you should try the Xpand glasses. Petri and Ekki both measured over 200 in bright mode. I can't remember the measurements for the JVC.

Yes FI ruins the film look but I kinda liked the extra 3dishness it adds to even live action. It's not like were going to watch serious dramas in 3D anyway. It's mostly nonsense like Pirranha 3D or Resident Evil anyway right now. It would reduce all judder even at low mode with Soap effect. Only high mode gives Soap effect.

That's an assumption I can't agree with at all. It's pretty easy to argue that Avatar is a serious drama (although you'll get plenty of disagreement on the quality of the story and the storytelling). I'll take it one step further and say that the 3D in Avatar works best in support of the most dramatic and personal interactions in the film. During a hunting scene, when Jake turns his head and looks at Neytiri, and she backs away, we have a silent and wonderful romantic moment of insight between them. It's deeply emotional. For me, 3D adds powerfully to the intensity of this scene, and it remains one of my favorite scenes for that very reason. I look forward to many more live action 3D films in which 3D brings us closer to the characters and their feelings. That we haven't had a lot of that yet doesn't mean the potential is not there.

Ironically, I think one of the best ways to increase the use of 3D to enhance a viewer's personal, emotional connection to a story may be for its critics to continue insisting 3D can't do it. I think artists relish doing things most people say can't be done. It's a myth destined for the trash heap.
conan48's Avatar conan48
02:07 PM Liked: 259
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I see your point regarding dramas. It would have to be used by a talented filmaker that would not abuse the 3d effect. Imagine Kibrick had access to 3d?!?'. I really meant to say that the trend for 3d movies is to only do 3d for animation, horror, and action. I think we are some time away before we see our first drama in 3d.


Now for the good news. My Sony has arrived!! I will pick it up tommorrow. Sony vs. Acer round 1.
velvetpoet's Avatar velvetpoet
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post #90 of 1363
11-30-2010 | Posts: 473
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"It's pretty easy to argue that Avatar is a serious drama (although you'll get plenty of disagreement on the quality of the story and the storytelling). "

If the quality of story and storytelling is arguable then how can it be a serious drama?
District 9 is a superior film in every way imho :P
I would like to see a real movie done in 3d. How about a war movie like Apocalypse Now or Saving private Ryan?

Maybe I'm the only one interested in seeing recreation of Shakespeare and other plays in 3d. Make it look like I'm watching a stage with depth.

Of course maybe the new generation will grow up loving spastic videogame movies. Too busy texting to really care about a good story anyways.
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