The Sony VPL VW90ES 3D Owner's Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1354 Old 12-03-2010, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

how about something like the Norman 5" ND filters from Adorama?

http://www.adorama.com/NMND5.html

can you clamp down the iris on the Sony, or is it too bright because of the HP screen?

For 2d, I am in low lamp and minimal IRIS, and at times I still think it is too bright. With the 85, even when new, manual IRIS from 20 to 50 in low lamp was generally where I could be. Yes, the HP is why, but without the HP (or some high gain screen), 3D would be un-viewable in my estimation.
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post #182 of 1354 Old 12-03-2010, 09:39 PM
 
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Thanx thrang...I appreciate all your efforts and time spent to share info. Looking forward to your external emitter update...
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post #183 of 1354 Old 12-03-2010, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

For 2d, I am in low lamp and minimal IRIS, and at times I still think it is too bright. With the 85, even when new, manual IRIS from 20 to 50 in low lamp was generally where I could be. Yes, the HP is why, but without the HP (or some high gain screen), 3D would be un-viewable in my estimation.

The acer 3D DLP I am toying around with puts out 700 lumens in 3D mode. For my personal taste, I wouldn't be able to watch it on the low gain material I had laying around to do some testing on. There is just too much light lost through the glasses in my opinion. I want the 3D to be as bright as possible. I recently watched Avatar 3D and it's quite a bit brighter on this setup than in my local premiere Imax theater.
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post #184 of 1354 Old 12-03-2010, 10:28 PM
 
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Here's the info and specs on the new XpanD x103's...

http://www.tru3d.com/stage/uploads/s...ch%20specs.pdf
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post #185 of 1354 Old 12-04-2010, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Yes, very different experience for me - Low to Bright had no intrinsic brightness effect on the X103's - it did change the ghosting, with High revealing the least ghosting. With the Sony glasses, Low to High did affect brightness of course, and less so ghosting - it did become more noticeable as you made the glasses brighter, but on a much gentler curve than going from high to low with the X103's

I'm fairly certain I mentioned X103's behaviour wrt glasses brightness setting earlier in one thread or another, but I guess nobody picked up on it then.

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post #186 of 1354 Old 12-04-2010, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Sorry for the delay guys. Wanted to get at least a couple days serious viewing for both 2d and 3d before I post my review. I'm at work now but I'll post my review tonight.

Just a quick preview........

2D = OMFG. Wow. Better then anything I've seen.

3D = Better then the Acer by a great number of ways. It has better motion, better colour, MUCH better contrast. The Acer has NO ghosting at all and is brighter. Ghosting is not as bad as I thought it would be based of a few negative comments.

Bottom line.....I'm not keeping the Acer. The Sonys pros far outway it's cons and provides a better experience then the Acer.

I'll post a Much longer detailed review tonight.

Oh yeah. FI and 3D and IMAX = Freaking awesome.

Comparing the Acer to the Sony is kind of interesting since the Acer cost literally 1/20th as much. It would be like comparing a $20k car to a $400k car! What's even more interesting is that the $20k car bests the $400k car in two areas - 2 relatively important areas like handling and comfort ("ghosting" and brightness). No one would expect a very cheap 720p 3D projector to beat a $10,000 one. In fact, it seems strange that it would even be worthwhile comparing the two. The Acer is one of the cheapest new projectors, if not the very cheapest, discussed on the under $3000 section of this forum. At a sale price of $480, it may be the very cheapest projector found on this forum - period! Not very comforting. In no way shape or form should a $500 projector best even a $2,500 projector, much less a $10,000 one, in any important area of image quality - am I wrong? The real test for the Sony will be a head to head against something in it's class like the JVC RS-60. To put this in perspective, where I live, the Acer costs 1/2 what the sales tax on the Sony would be!
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post #187 of 1354 Old 12-04-2010, 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by omicronian View Post

That would imply the X103 are not decoding the IR signal correctly, and only use it to "sync" but possibly disregard information about how long each eye remains open.

If X103s disregarded that info, there wouldn't be any difference in crosstalk on various settings, but there is. Methinks Sony didn't reveal all there was to know about their ASGs to Xpand.

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post #188 of 1354 Old 12-04-2010, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Noe having said all this, I am likely exchanging the 90es, because I did some more careful testing and quickly uncovered that I have some very bad convergence ...

Is the problem that the convergence is nonuniform across the screen? Otherwise you should be able to get within .5 pixels by using the full pixel adjust. How far off is it?

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post #189 of 1354 Old 12-04-2010, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Is the problem that the convergence is nonuniform across the screen? Otherwise you should be able to get within .5 pixels by using the full pixel adjust. How far off is it?

Thanks,
Darin

Non -uniform, mostly the left third of the screen, same as the focus issue, which will not be addressed by the convergence much anyway (I know there is interrelation to a degree)

Plus even Sony advise not to use the panel alignment feature very much and certainly not for coarse adjustments, as in can introduce resolution and color artifacts as noted above

Do you know the reason Jason rejected his demo?

Thanks
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post #190 of 1354 Old 12-04-2010, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Comparing the Acer to the Sony is kind of interesting since the Acer cost literally 1/20th as much. It would be like comparing a $20k car to a $400k car! What's even more interesting is that the $20k car bests the $400k car in two areas - 2 relatively important areas like handling and comfort ("ghosting" and brightness). No one would expect a very cheap 720p 3D projector to beat a $10,000 one. In fact, it seems strange that it would even be worthwhile comparing the two. The Acer is one of the cheapest new projectors, if not the very cheapest, discussed on the under $3000 section of this forum. At a sale price of $480, it may be the very cheapest projector found on this forum - period! Not very comforting. In no way shape or form should a $500 projector best even a $2,500 projector, much less a $10,000 one, in any important area of image quality - am I wrong? The real test for the Sony will be a head to head against something in it's class like the JVC RS-60. To put this in perspective, where I live, the Acer costs 1/2 what the sales tax on the Sony would be!

I think this is comparing apples-to-oranges. DLPs have an advantage in being able to switch much faster, which is crucial with regards to ghosting. No matter how much money you put in a LCoS projector it won't be able to match the DLP switching speed. It's inherent in the technology. On the other hand LCoS has a huge advantage in native on/off that no DLP can touch - not even a $100k one.

To me is more like comparing a Bugatti Veyron to a Jeep. The Bugatti is more than 20x the price of the jeep but it can't beat it in every aspect. The Jeep is better off road. Period.

If you want to beat the Jeep you have to change approach, raise the body, larger tires etc. But this will hurt the performance on the track.

If you want to beat the Acer in switching speed JVC would need to go DLP. But then the projector won't have the same on/off anymore... It's all about compromises, doesn't matter what price point you're at.
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post #191 of 1354 Old 12-04-2010, 09:54 AM
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Thrang, I think for the price paid, you should expect good uniformity, especially if your previous VW85 was much better.

I also appreciate your very honest, completely unbiased way of posting about your new PJ. Its very refreshing to see, and rare!
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post #192 of 1354 Old 12-04-2010, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Drexler View Post
I think this is comparing apples-to-oranges. DLPs have an advantage in being able to switch much faster, which is crucial with regards to ghosting. No matter how much money you put in a LCoS projector it won't be able to match the DLP switching speed. It's inherent in the technology. On the other hand LCoS has a huge advantage in native on/off that no DLP can touch - not even a $100k one.

To me is more like comparing a Bugatti Veyron to a Jeep. The Bugatti is more than 20x the price of the jeep but it can't beat it in every aspect. The Jeep is better off road. Period.

If you want to beat the Jeep you have to change approach, raise the body, larger tires etc. But this will hurt the performance on the track.

If you want to beat the Acer in switching speed JVC would need to go DLP. But then the projector won't have the same on/off anymore... It's all about compromises, doesn't matter what price point you're at.
Exactly!

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post #193 of 1354 Old 12-04-2010, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

I think this is comparing apples-to-oranges. DLPs have an advantage in being able to switch much faster, which is crucial with regards to ghosting. No matter how much money you put in a LCoS projector it won't be able to match the DLP switching speed. It's inherent in the technology. On the other hand LCoS has a huge advantage in native on/off that no DLP can touch - not even a $100k one.

To me is more like comparing a Bugatti Veyron to a Jeep. The Bugatti is more than 20x the price of the jeep but it can't beat it in every aspect. The Jeep is better off road. Period.

If you want to beat the Jeep you have to change approach, raise the body, larger tires etc. But this will hurt the performance on the track.

If you want to beat the Acer in switching speed JVC would need to go DLP. But then the projector won't have the same on/off anymore... It's all about compromises, doesn't matter what price point you're at.

You guys can rationalize just about anything. Pretty funny. I'll bet the lamp for the Sony costs more than the Acer. If a Jeep beats a Ferrari in acceleration and handling (ghosting and brightness two very crucial areas of 3D) it might leave the Ferrari owner a little disconcerted. But, hey his Ferrari sure looks sexier.

On a more serious note - prepare yourselves for some owners of the expensive 3D projectors to begin heavily criticizing them once the honeymoon wears off. It's almost inevitable. I'll bet it'll be about "ghosting" and brightness issues. This forum can be pretty brutal.
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post #194 of 1354 Old 12-04-2010, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

On a more serious note - prepare yourselves for some owners of the expensive 3D projectors to begin heavily criticizing them once the honeymoon wears off. It's almost inevitable. I'll bet it'll be about "ghosting" and brightness issues. This forum can be pretty brutal.

"Expensive" 3D projectors aren't discussed in this forum. They're over in the $20k+ forum.
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post #195 of 1354 Old 12-04-2010, 03:38 PM
 
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"Expensive" 3D projectors aren't discussed in this forum. They're over in the $20k+ forum.

lol...good one!...
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post #196 of 1354 Old 12-04-2010, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

You guys can rationalize just about anything. Pretty funny. I'll bet the lamp for the Sony costs more than the Acer. If a Jeep beats a Ferrari in acceleration and handling (ghosting and brightness two very crucial areas of 3D) it might leave the Ferrari owner a little disconcerted. But, hey his Ferrari sure looks sexier.

Granted brightness and ghosting are two very important areas for 3D. However, this is the limitation of the technology. Todays state-of-the-art LCoS can't switch fast enough to get you high brightness, low ghosting 3D. That's the way it is, high-end or low-end. They can choose to either skip 3D in their LCoS, go with DLP and compromise other areas, or do as they did - produce an LCoS with 3D which has weaknesses in some areas.

I don't know what more to say. But I'm not surprised that the Acer is better in some respects considering it uses a completely different technology that has other strengths/weaknesses compared to LCoS.

Quote:
On a more serious note - prepare yourselves for some owners of the expensive 3D projectors to begin heavily criticizing them once the honeymoon wears off. It's almost inevitable. I'll bet it'll be about "ghosting" and brightness issues. This forum can be pretty brutal.

Yep, I have this feeling to. Especially as the bulbs start to age.
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post #197 of 1354 Old 12-04-2010, 10:04 PM
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Forget the bulb aging issues, the real problem is the aging of the owners.

Thrang what does the white grid pattern look like with the projector center mounted (no lens shift used) and a perfect rectangle on the screen to ensure centering left right without rotating the projector to center the image. If there are convergence and focus problems on the side, this would indicate a defective optical block.

No projector can do it all, no matter the cost. For quality 3D, one needs a really bright projector which of course means that on off CR will be low. The Sony and JVCs will be 3D pretenders. What? How can Haflich say this? They will be the best you can get for the money today in a 2D/3D. Next year they will do somewhat better in 3D, as we go to 144 and better FI and with vertical anamorphic stretch. But there will be cross talk and dim non engaging pictures. Thats what you will get in 3D in the under $10K 2D/3D projectors.


Nothing magical can be done to make 3D things better. Raise the color temperature to get more light. They both did that this year. Damn the color accuracy in 3D. Go to a little higher wattage bulb, JVC did it this year. Improve the efficiency of the block, JVC did it this year. Or you can open them shutter glass shutters for longer than they should be and get more ghosting. ANSWER: One needs to raise the lumens to the 4000 to 6000 range for those 12 ft wide or so screens. For you 9 or 10 ft wide, you will need about 2500 lumens.

Go for an HP screen, but mount your projector where it should be for that screen. Better yet get a silver screen with a gain of 2.0, mount towards longer throw to reduce hot spotting and muddling and use you present screen for 2D. Every screen other than a perfectly smooth 1.0 gain one will have problems. Screens are passive devices and all a gain greater than one screen can do is focus the light towards one area and away from another. Black diamond this, firehawk that, they help solve some problems but introduce others. The whole mess is an ugly compromise with no right answer. Set your priorities realistically and then try to optimize their attainment. And I am in the business of selling screens, projectors, and other things for AVS. So I have nothing to gain by saying all this.

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post #198 of 1354 Old 12-05-2010, 04:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Mark I think you gain integrity by just telling it like it is.

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post #199 of 1354 Old 12-05-2010, 04:54 AM
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Mark, that was one of the best posts on this subject, if not the best, I've read anywhere ever. Kudos.

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post #200 of 1354 Old 12-05-2010, 05:07 AM
 
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Wow! It seems this is a real 3D world
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post #201 of 1354 Old 12-05-2010, 05:08 AM
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That post is why I appreciate your honesty Mark. No sugar coating.

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post #202 of 1354 Old 12-05-2010, 05:10 AM
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Wow! It seems this is a real 3D world

Material girl living in a 3D world. Uptown girl living in a 3D world. All the same.

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post #203 of 1354 Old 12-05-2010, 07:31 AM
 
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Mark...That was hitting the nail on the head... Unfortunately, you have shattered everyone's ball of illusion...
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post #204 of 1354 Old 12-05-2010, 08:00 AM
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Cross your eyes and the ghosting gets better...
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post #205 of 1354 Old 12-05-2010, 08:04 AM
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More seriously, I wonder how new 3d capture technology, such as what Cameron invented for avatar, will translate into rendering better 3d at home. For those that have avatar, would you say it is by far the best 3d title you have seen at home? (best here = least ghosting)
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post #206 of 1354 Old 12-05-2010, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Avatar 3D is terrific. Aliens vs Monsters is terrific. Same for Monster House. Pretty good is Alice In Wonderland, A Christmas Carol, My Bloody Valentine, Cloudy with a chance and a couple of the Imax titles. Polar Express and Clash of the Titans I would consider below average. Damn I just realized I have quite a 3D collection going!!! Can't wait to add Despicable Me 3D soon...

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post #207 of 1354 Old 12-05-2010, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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And the people who have come and watched Avatar 3D have said by far it is the best 3D they have seen in a home. It is a sharp, clear and clean image.

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post #208 of 1354 Old 12-05-2010, 10:30 AM
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Avatar 3D is terrific. Aliens vs Monsters is terrific. Same for Monster House. Pretty good is Alice In Wonderland, A Christmas Carol, My Bloody Valentine, Cloudy with a chance and a couple of the Imax titles. Polar Express and Clash of the Titans I would consider below average. Damn I just realized I have quite a 3D collection going!!! Can't wait to add Despicable Me 3D soon...

I just order Open Season and The grand Canyon in 3D.

If someone know how to get a copy of Avatar 3D, please pm me.

I almost order Clash of the Titan but the 3D effect seem below avreage, so I think I will wait when the title drop in price.
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post #209 of 1354 Old 12-05-2010, 11:18 AM
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Avatar has one major thing going against it as far as I'm concerned: Cameron's traditional use of shallow depth of field. It's something that just doesn't sit well with 3D.

When our brain tells us we're seeing depth, we're consciously or subconsciously scanning the entire view for information on multiple depth levels from foreground to deep background. But when a director uses a shallow DOF, he has already decided for us which depth we're supposed to be focusing on. When seeing Avatar in a theater, I was constantly irritated by how my eyes roamed around trying to examine depth planes other than what Cameron had in focus. I wanted to see what was in the background, but thanks to shallow DOF, that background was a blurry mush without discernible detail.

There's a shot lasting a few seconds very close to one of the chapter marks quite early in the movie where the main character (it was such a poor movie I can't even remember the character's name) is brandishing a sharpened stick and slowly retreating into the "jungle" while facing the camera. That shot has incredible depth and more importantly, it's sharp and in focus all the way to infinity. It's prime example of a very good 3D shot which lets the viewer examine all layers of depth freely. I'm sure the movie has other similar and even better demo shots, but that's the one I've been showing my guests. (As it happens, the pointed end of the stick has negative depth, i.e. it juts out of the image plane, adding even more depth to the shot.)

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post #210 of 1354 Old 12-05-2010, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I forgot to mention Open Season. I have that one too! It is pretty good as well. Experimenting with the X103s lately it does seem most prefer the larger (chubby) nose piece. It makes them more comfortable. It's good to have options...

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