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post #91 of 817 Old 12-26-2010, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

OT:Mark, I sent you a PM several days ago; are you checking your pm these days?

Bill

I sent him one too, it seems he may be a busy cat?

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post #92 of 817 Old 12-27-2010, 05:24 AM
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i have 89" wide 16:9 studiotek 130 G3 with a completely dark room. my vango with ee colorbox is projecting at 12' from the screen. the bright scenes are a tad too bright for my taste though the image is excellent with a slight red bias. if i reduce the brightness in the menu a bit, the dark scenes look washed out. if there was a way to reduce the iris to lower overall brightness my job would be done. then i would not need to reduce brightness on the menu and the dark scene would not looked washed out. please tell me if there is a way to close the iris down manually or otherwise through a proffessional to lower overall brightness thus increasing contrast?
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post #93 of 817 Old 12-27-2010, 03:32 PM
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Try raising the gamma to 2.4 and setting the contrast and brightness levels to whrere they belong.

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post #94 of 817 Old 12-27-2010, 03:42 PM
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yes, I did mean anamorphic lens. My 1.78 would be 66x118" and my 2.40 would be 66x158". I will have side masking. I presume I should use the short throw lens. My room length is 20' 6" and my available max throw is 18 ft. Seating distance is 18ft.

Japan Dave mentioned that he has the Vango as close as possible and he is using an A-lens. However, he also has a curved screen while I was going with a flat screen; I am not sure how important this may be.
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post #95 of 817 Old 12-27-2010, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by fledwinter View Post

yes, I did mean anamorphic lens. My 1.78 would be 66x118" and my 2.40 would be 66x158". I will have side masking. I presume I should use the short throw lens. My room length is 20' 6" and my available max throw is 18 ft. Seating distance is 18ft.

Japan Dave mentioned that he has the Vango as close as possible and he is using an A-lens. However, he also has a curved screen while I was going with a flat screen; I am not sure how important this may be.

The only reason to go with the curved screen is to combat pin cushion. I had it on a flat temporary screen and the pin cushion was not bad at all, I just liked the coolness of the curved screen. Besides , with the distances you are talking 3.5' will not make much difference in pin cushion, the pin cushion is going to be there no matter what you do if you use a flat screen and only have 18' to play with. (my honest opinion is that you won't be too bothered by it any way).

The short throw lens is the only option IMO ,as the max throw distance is 20' for a screen that size and the min is about 14.4', which basically covers your options.

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post #96 of 817 Old 12-28-2010, 09:48 PM
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Mark

Any progress setting up the vango and ee color box?

Christian

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post #97 of 817 Old 12-29-2010, 01:06 PM
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MH,

Any word on the EE COLOR BOX being sold separately?

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ICR [ Sales Consulting and Small Part-Time AV shop, very small...  ]

Process Integration, Inc. [ contract sales consultant ]

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post #98 of 817 Old 01-07-2011, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-airforce View Post
Mark,
Do you get 12-16 ft. lb on your screen?
I was at Mark's house last night calibrating the Vango. Without the EE box in the loop, using the Rec. 709 color space we got 400 lumens pre-calibration and 350 post-calibration.

On his 110" diagonal StudioTek that is 14.5/12.7 fL.

Post-calibration was spot on for gamma, grayscale, and colorimetry, though we had the Lumagen help out substantially with the gamma, which tended to fall off substantially above 50% input. This is, I assume, the source of the great majority of the lumens loss.

It was a very nice image.

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post #99 of 817 Old 01-07-2011, 12:26 PM
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Is there an Overlap on/off setting?
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post #100 of 817 Old 01-07-2011, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I was at Mark's house last night calibrating the Vango. Without the EE box in the loop, using the Rec. 709 color space we got 400 lumens pre-calibration and 350 post-calibration.

On his 110" diagonal StudioTek that is 14.5/12.7 fL.

Post-calibration was spot on for gamma, grayscale, and colorimetry, though we had the Lumagen help out substantially with the gamma, which tended to fall off substantially above 50% input. This is, I assume, the source of the great majority of the lumens loss.

It was a very nice image.

That sounds like quite a bit fewer lumens than I was expecting. ?
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post #101 of 817 Old 01-07-2011, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
I was at Mark's house last night calibrating the Vango. Without the EE box in the loop, using the Rec. 709 color space we got 400 lumens pre-calibration and 350 post-calibration.

On his 110" diagonal StudioTek that is 14.5/12.7 fL.

Post-calibration was spot on for gamma, grayscale, and colorimetry, though we had the Lumagen help out substantially with the gamma, which tended to fall off substantially above 50% input. This is, I assume, the source of the great majority of the lumens loss.

It was a very nice image.
That is not what Jason Turk measured in his review with D65 calibration.

Not to mention that I have my vango projecting onto a 14' wide scope screen which would give me under 3.8 fl with the anamorphics lens in place. I am sorry ,with the brightness I am getting off my screen there is no way that I am getting under 4fl, I can have the rear cans left on which puts out a fair bit of ambient light and still get a good image.

Something is not right.

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post #102 of 817 Old 01-07-2011, 04:33 PM
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You might be surprised at how little fL you're viewing. I recently bought a lux meter and although you have to calculate to get in fL I found I was watching at about 5fL and I thought it was bright. I opened the iris quite a few clicks to give 12-14fL and did my recalibration at that setting. It looks much better, but I seriously thought it was bright before. It's just what you're used to and that your eyes tend to adjust to the dark anyway.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #103 of 817 Old 01-07-2011, 05:31 PM
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We set the machine for the standard width gamut and not the expanded LED gamut. While the gama was set on the Vango at 2.2, the actual measured curve tailed off above 50% and required much correction with substantial light loss. The internal CMS of the Vango was used and not the one in the color box or in the Radiance. Next week we will use the color box for setting the CMS points. This means setting the xs wide open in the projector and using the box's CMS to bring them down to the correct point. Full instructions are not yet available for the box and we didn't want to screw with doing it there without the coming instructions. Remember the projector has the TI high brightness mode which the box corrects the most obvious color errors. The machine is a lot brighter in the EE maximum brightness mode. Meanwhile I will be happily viewing it tonight at 14 ft laberts dead on everything else and sharp.

I have reread Jason's review and willl discuss it with Tom. Jason did his in wide gamut and we did normal and corrected the prmaries and secondaries. I suspect the difference in measured lumens was do to the gamma corrections we did but Jasons results were about 50% higher lumens. This is a fun sport with much to learn. Edit. We did not have the contrast set correctly because we were in a mode which block its ability to correctly read the contrast pattern we were using. Setting it correctly substantially raised the lumens.

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post #104 of 817 Old 01-07-2011, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
We set the machine for the standard width gamut and not the expanded LED gamut. While the gama was set on the Vango at 2.2, the actual measured curve tailed off above 50% and required much correction with substantial light loss. The internal CMS of the Vango was used and not the one in the color box or in the Radiance. Next week we will use the color box for setting the CMS points. This means setting the Ls wide up in the projector and using the bixes CMS to bring them down to the correct point, Ditto for the xy positions. Full instructions are not yet available for the box and we didn't want to screw with doing it there without the coming instructions. Remember the projector has the TI high brightness mode which the box corrects the most obvious color errors. Machine is a lot brighter in the EE maximum brightness mode. Meanwhile I will be happily viewing it tonight at 10 ft laberts dead on everything else and sharp.
Ok, for those of us who's eyes glaze over reading the above, my Vango was calibrated by Jason using Rec. 709, no EE Box, gama 2.2. Are you telling me that I'm looking at 350-400 lumens, or are you doing something different than what Jason does.

Just saw your edit. Eyes still a little glazed.

Thanks Mark,
John

Regards,
John
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post #105 of 817 Old 01-07-2011, 05:53 PM
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John,

It is very likely that Jason calibrated your projector using the high brightness mode...If you like it that way.. Don't worry and enjoy...

Christian

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post #106 of 817 Old 01-07-2011, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalc3 View Post

John,

It is very likely that Jason calibrated your projector using the high brightness mode...If you like it that way.. Don't worry and enjoy...

Hi Christian,

No worries. Just trying to learn. I follow quite a few threads that deal with CM and am just trying to get better educated. Unfortunately, following some of these discussions do little more than crunch up my face. My projector is not in the high brightness mode, and it sure seems bright.......which I realize is a personal perception. Seems very close to LCOS projectors that I've seen. Absolutely enjoying the projector.

Regards,
John

Regards,
John
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post #107 of 817 Old 01-09-2011, 08:23 AM
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Still playing. Tom and I use the same light meter and our measurements using the two meters are withing 1% of each other.

Using the Vango alone, one can select a variety of gammas but the curves can not be corrected or customized. One can set gray scales using the internal RGB gains and cut offs and the primaries and secondaries cab be set using the internal CMS. We found considerable error in the 2.2 curve. The color box can correct that curve and is in fact deigned to do that. It can only correct the 2.2 curve and no others but that is really unimportant once the 2.2 curve is corrected. The other curves as selected in the Vango and gamma factor curves, a multiplier being applied to the 2.2 curve. The Liumagen can use a multiplier but can also create custom curves as well. I want to go back and recalibrate with the box in the system. Right now calibrated I am getting about 13 ft lamberts on my screen, and that increases by about 30% if I switch to the EE maximum brightness mode. When Tom and I initially calibrated without the box, we could not get the bars on the white pattern to appear and left the contrast at 0. With the box, the bar appeared and I using the bar set the contrast to 2, thereby increasing the lumens and ft lamberts. I need to remeasure and see if the gamma was affected by doing so.

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post #108 of 817 Old 01-09-2011, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

When Tom and I initially calibrated without the box, we could not get the bars on the white pattern to appear and left the contrast at 0.

I noticed on mine as calibrated I have no white bars either, however I do see a couple of bars with the contrast lowered 2-3. What affect does no white bars have on image quality? Would lighter or white objects appear crushed? Nothing seems real obvious to me with the projector left "as calibrated" but I don't have a "trained" eye.

What light meter do you have?

Regards,
John

Regards,
John
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post #109 of 817 Old 01-09-2011, 03:28 PM
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I don't have a Vango (though I'm very interesting in reading about it) but in general, if you can't see the 235 flashing bar or the ones just below it, you will get white crush on 'real' content. Things like clouds or other bright parts will lose texture as the brightest points blend into one. There is some debate if it's necesaary to allow headroom for over 235, but I tend to setup to allow 240 or so to be visible, but it's not an LED unit (HD350, plus VideoEQ Pro).

Of course, lowering contrast to allow upto 254 to be visible will tend to make the image dimmer for a given IRE pattern, compared to clipping above 235, so it's a compromise as is most calibration.

I've not been able to get on with DLP in the past, so I'm interested the new technologies coming up. I also love the idea of the complete fade to black possible by these machines, even if the dark scenes maybe aren't as deep as some DILA models. The rush for 3D might yet allow me to try one of these seriously one day; one calibration then away you go (instead of my bi-annual calibration with UHP )

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #110 of 817 Old 01-09-2011, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

... Right now calibrated I am getting about 13 ft lamberts on my screen,...

Mark: With your screen size and gain, what lumen output does this correspond to?
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post #111 of 817 Old 01-10-2011, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dormie1360 View Post

I noticed on mine as calibrated I have no white bars either, however I do see a couple of bars with the contrast lowered 2-3. What affect does no white bars have on image quality? Would lighter or white objects appear crushed? Nothing seems real obvious to me with the projector left "as calibrated" but I don't have a "trained" eye.

What light meter do you have?

Regards,
John

My Vango was calibrated to rec. 709 and even with a 128 inch scope screen (Carada BW) and zooming where I lose significant light to the black bars I have never even thought of wanting more light. Jason quoted a figure close to what he quoted for John's machine which is at the beginning of this thread.

I have a color processor but no software and Jason is working on getting that for me. I was really hoping that Mark's test would provide me some meaningful journeyman's insights. It must be a longer journey than I thought. What have other owners experienced?

Vince

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post #112 of 817 Old 01-10-2011, 10:53 PM
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The software for the box is still a work in progress. I should be getting a new beta version of the software in a couple but can not discuss it until allowed to. I would just wait a bit and not load the current version because I expect it will change.

The projector by itself does not allow fixing a gamma curve, you are stuck with whatever the 2.2 curve is in the projector but you can apply a gamma multiplier to it, you do so by changing the gamma curve number in the projector menu. The projector allows gray scale adjustment under user settings (set by adjusting the RGB offsets and gain) and allows through the CMS the primaries and secondaries to be measured and corrected. The gamma curves can only be corrected through an external processor. Using the internal stuff, I would set the machine to a users memory, standard rather tha native, rec 709, gamma 2.2. You would not be using the EE color modes (max brightness or max color) under these conditions.[

The box and its CMS allows the primaries to be set externally, but does not permit the secondaries toi be adjusted, there being no need because the box uses the correct formulas to derive the secondaries, nit sure if the projector alone uses the right formulas and its CMS because we needed to correct them with the box not in the system. I believe when we trying to adjust the contrast, the projector switched being in automatic to an RGB mode not allowing the bars to be showing in the Lumagens contras patterns. With the box, the projector detected the right mode and showed the bars and allowed them to be adjusted. The Lumagen pattern we used should be adjusted so the last bar on the right in the white for box pattern (two black patterns, two white) just shows. This resulted in setting the contrast from 0 to 2 and yielded more lumens out. My screen is 110 inch D, 1.78 aspect I use the same meter everyone else uses, the $165 jobbie LovingDVD wrote about. Search measuring lumens from a front projector. Google refers you to his thread in AVS.

The gamma curve was way off above 50 IRE and we used the Lumagen to fix it at the cost of some lumens, Jason in his calibration could not fix the curve because the projector does not provide for any adjustment. The EE box will allow the curve to be set to a correct 2.2 curve having a built in 11 point gamma curve adjustment. However, the only curve that can be set is a 2.2.

At this point, I need to experiment with the box when the software is finalized and the instructions for using the CMS and gamma functions of the box are finished. To use the external CMS, the projector should be factory reset but one should make a record of the calibrated RGB settings and the CMS settings in case they need to be reloaded. Believe me I am working with the EE folks on sorting this all out. Stay tuned.

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post #113 of 817 Old 01-11-2011, 08:00 AM
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Reading this thread, I concluded the Vango (REC 709 gamma 2.2 calibrated) is no brighter than the Delta machines (Vivitek, Runco)?

I ve tested the RUNCO Q750i in my 96" 1.0 Screen Research, and while the colors are fantastic, the big problem is the lack of brightness...very evident on dark scenes.

I am waiting to see in my home the new RUNCO LS-10 (3 chips DLP).
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post #114 of 817 Old 01-11-2011, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

My screen is 110 inch D, 1.78 aspect I use the same meter everyone else uses, the $165 jobbie LovingDVD wrote about.

I think you use a StudioTek screen, with 1.3 gain (please correct me otherwise). If so, 13 ftL from your 110" diag screen amounts to ~ 360 lumens (~470 lumens if the gain is 1.0). This is pretty weak, nicht wahr?
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post #115 of 817 Old 01-11-2011, 09:24 AM
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Quote:


the big problem is the lack of brightness...very evident on dark scenes.

Yup, dark scenes really have a way of bringing out a lack of brightness, don't they?...
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post #116 of 817 Old 01-11-2011, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

The software for the box is still a work in progress. I should be getting a new beta version in a couple o days but can not discuss it until allowed to. I would just wait a bit and not load the current version because I expect it will change.

The projector by itself does not allow fixing a gamma curve, you are stuck with whatever the 2.2 curve is in the projector but you can apply a gamma multiplier to it, you do so by changing the gamma curve number in the projector menu. The projector allows gray scale adjustment under user settings (set by adjusting the RGB offsets and gain) and allows through the CMS the primaries and secondaries to be measured and corrected. The gamma curves can only be corrected through an external processor.
Using the internal stuff, I would set the machine to a users memory, standard rather tha native, rec 709, gamma 2.2. You would not be using the EE color modes (max brightness or max color) under these conditions.[


The box and its CMS allows the primaries to be set externally, but does not permit the secondaries toi be adjusted, there being no need because the box uses the correct formulas to derive the secondaries, nit sure if the projector alone uses the right formulas and its CMS because we needed to correct them with the box not in the system. I believe when we trying to adjust the contrast, the projector switched being in automatic to an RGB mode not allowing the bars to be showing in the Lumagens contras patterns. With the box, the projector detected the right mode and showed the bars and allowed them to be adjusted. The Lumagen pattern we used should be adjusted so the lastr bar on the right in the white for box patter (two black patterns, two white) just shows. This resulted in setting the contrast from 0 to 2 and yielded more lumens out. My screen is 110 inch D, 1.78 aspect I use the same meter everyone else uses, the $165 jobbie LovingDVD wrote about. Search measuring lumens from a front projector. Google refers you to his thread in AVS.

The gamma curve was way off above 50 IRE and we used the Lumagen to fix it at the cost of some lumens, Jason in his calibration could not fix the curve because the projector does not provide for any adjustment. The EE box will allow the curve to be set to a correct 2.2 curve having a built in 11 point gamma curve adjustment. However, the only curve that can be set is a 2.2.

At this point, I need to experiment with the box when the software is finalized and the instructions for using the CMS and gamma functions of the box are finished. To use the external CMS, the projector should be factory reset but one should make a record of the calibrated RGB settings and the CMS settings in case they need to be reloaded. Believe me I am working with the EE folks on sorting this all out, Stay tuned.


Mark,

I applaud your efforts. And more so your dedication to pass the findings on to this audience. It is important to our understanding of this system and equally important to maintaining the excellent confidence that this community has in AVS. Hopefully people will realize that this is somewhat new territory even for the experienced rodeo riders.

Do you have any insight into the compatibility between this projector and the new anamorphic lens offering (plus lift) unfolding here on AVS? I am looking at AVS's new anamorphic lens offering not so much for lumens or pixel density but because it will allow me use the projector's zoom lens closer to the mid-point of its adjustment range.

Ideally, for me, the eventual program would allow me return my color processor to Jason, ask him to set it up to work in concert with my projector which he previously set to rec. 709; get back, hook it up and enjoy. I would accept a 10 percent deviation from the optimum for convenience. In other words, a systems calibration as opposed to a device calibration. On this roll-out the availability of components prevented this.

Again, thanks.

Vince

Sony G90-->D-ILA--> LCD-->Vango LED DLP
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post #117 of 817 Old 01-11-2011, 12:50 PM
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I should have the new software and box calibration instructions tomorrow. If you are computer handy, you will shortly be able to download the new EE tables. The box as I understand it really has no effect on the calibration done to your projector without it. I need to talk to Jason but I don`t see how the gamma could be corrected by the box without taking measurements from the projector. Its not like you can just plug in correction values if one had previously taken gamma readings because the adjacent points are somewhat interactive and require some fine tuning. Also I am not sure what the relationship of a rec 709 calibration standard yada yada has when one is using a native LED colorspace and the EE tables. We are working on me fully understanding everything.

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post #118 of 817 Old 01-11-2011, 02:16 PM
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The Vango has a linear vertical stretch mode and given that it lens surface lies outside the case, should lead to an ideal anamorphic lens set up.

Let me make it perfectly clear. I have now over 100 hours using the machine and an extremely happy with its performance. I have a nice bright punchy picture image on my screen with perfect colors and an absolutely linear gamma 2.2 curve. The box or an external processor is necessary to obtain gamma linearity,

When Tom and I did a calibration of the unit neither one of us was completely familiar with all the options in the user menu and something happened which did not let us adjust the contrast to the correct value resulting in lower lumen readings than the correct values. I think the machine auto switched into an incorrect RGB mode. I need to experiment more, this is correctable without the box by switching from auto. With the box, no problem.

The EE box and the EE color modes are really something apart from a normal color calibration. They are designed to do a variety of things, To make the colors quite watcghable in a super bright TI mode and to correct the colors to compensate for how your eyes see them under various room lighting conditions. They also deal with using the wider gamut associated with an LED projector. The native state rather than the standard state of of an LED machine rather than the normal state associated with a lamp machine. Tables can be downloaded for lamp based machines to compensate for room lighting conditions. I am learning about all this in the context of table refinement and options and to the interrelationship of this with respect to normal calibration.

But rest assured. The machine without the box is damn good and plenty bright. The measurements we took wil be refined. Everyone just relax. It is a great machine. I however have a learning curve to master.

Mark Haflich
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post #119 of 817 Old 01-12-2011, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I should have the new software and box calibration instructions tomorrow. If you are computer handy, you will shortly be able to download the new EE tables. The box as I understand it really has no effect on the calibration done to your projector without it. I need to talk to Jason but I don`t see how the gamma could be corrected by the box without taking measurements from the projector. Its not like you can just plug in correction values if one had previously taken gamma readings because the adjacent points are somewhat interactive and require some fine tuning. Also I am not sure what the relationship of a rec 709 calibration standard yada yada has when one is using a native LED colorspace and the EE tables. We are working on me fully understanding everything.

Mark,

Again, many thanks. If I still kept a place in Vienna I would come over and 'help' you which, while fun, would slow the process immensely. If other owners have questions that might focus your exploration of the EE color processor, this would be the place to pose them. Meanwhile, the projector, sans processor, is a pure joy for me. Vince

Sony G90-->D-ILA--> LCD-->Vango LED DLP
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post #120 of 817 Old 01-12-2011, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

When Tom and I did a calibration of the unit neither one of us was completely familiar with all the options in the user menu and something happened which did not let us adjust the contrast to the correct value resulting in lower lumen readings than the correct values.

To clarify, what Mark is referring to is that with Contrast set at its default mid-level and with the EE Box out of the loop, when we put up a contrast test pattern from the Radiance, we did not see a below-white stripe, indicating that the unit was clipping high-level detail. Moving the Contrast slider up and down seemed to have no effect.

That is the setting that resulted in 400 lumens pre-calibration, 350 lumens post-calibration.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
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