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post #121 of 778 Old 01-12-2011, 12:21 PM
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Tom,
Which color meter you are using to calibrate CMS on Vango?

Thanks...
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post #122 of 778 Old 01-12-2011, 12:50 PM
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Tom,

Did you set the output of the lumagen to RGB and extended black level?

The problem with the Vango is that (YPbPr) component is lock with 0IRE. Alan has requested to EE to work on a firmware to unlock that option in the menu.

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post #123 of 778 Old 01-12-2011, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-airforce View Post

Which color meter you are using to calibrate CMS on Vango?

In this particular case, I used a calibrated Klein K-10.

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post #124 of 778 Old 01-12-2011, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalc3 View Post

Did you set the output of the lumagen to RGB and extended black level?

The problem with the Vango is that (YPbPr) component is lock with 0IRE. Alan has requested to EE to work on a firmware to unlock that option in the menu.

I don't know how the Lumagen output was setup. Mark would be in a better position than I to answer that question.

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post #125 of 778 Old 01-13-2011, 06:23 AM
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It was not set to RGB-video. I switched it after the calibration to RGB. Last night, when testing an RS40 for convergence and functionality, I had to switch the Lumagen back to YPB from RGB to enable the RS40 to present the colors properly. Quite a psychedelic display with the Lumagen set to RGB.. I didn`t check the black level but I assume it was set to 0 to 255. I wasn`t calibrating the RS40, just checking out convergence and functionality and using it to test various screen materials for polarization retention.

Of course I could have set the RS40 to RGB with extended blacks and then I would have been able to keep the Lumagen at RGB video.

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post #126 of 778 Old 01-13-2011, 06:43 AM
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All this is illustrative of working with a new machine despite experience with many others. Or relying on brightness and contrast numbers taken during, in this case, perhaps with an invalid set up. Rather than attempting to track down the root of the white bar problem, we just pressed on resulting in erroneous measurements brightness conclusions. We will get back to it a little later.

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post #127 of 778 Old 01-15-2011, 09:49 AM
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Got a CA813 meter and did a quick measurement. I got a reading of 107 Lux on a 100 IRE full field pattern. Using the formula Lumens = (Lux/10.76)* screen sq/ft gives me 430 Lumens. This equals 12.9 ft/L

The projector came calibrated to rec. 709. As far as the gamma issues, I'm not sure what was done. I do have clipping on the last two white bars looking at a 11 step grey pattern.

Very enlightening. (no pun intended). As Mark has said, still looks like a great picture, brightness seems fine, lots of depth. I can't imagine what my CRT would have measured.

Regards,
John

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post #128 of 778 Old 01-15-2011, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dormie1360 View Post

Got a CA813 meter and did a quick measurement. I got a reading of 107 Lux on a 100 IRE full field pattern. Using the formula Lumens = (Lux/10.76)* screen sq/ft gives me 430 Lumens. This equals 12.9 ft/L

The projector came calibrated to rec. 709. As far as the gamma issues, I'm not sure what was done. I do have clipping on the last two white bars looking at a 11 step grey pattern.

Very enlightening. (no pun intended). As Mark has said, still looks like a great picture, brightness seems fine, lots of depth. I can't imagine what my CRT would have measured.

Regards,
John

Thanks for your report. Your value of 430 lumens in 709-calibrated mode seems very consistent with Mark's results. Jason's very early report of ~ 700 lumens thus must not have been for calibrated mode; this confused a lot of us since this wasn't made clear initially.
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post #129 of 778 Old 01-16-2011, 06:01 PM
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Took another look at the Vango today and figured some stuff out.

First, the issue we observed with its clipping high-level detail and a dramatic fall off in gamma response above 50% input are related. The Vango shares a bug with the SIM2 Mico 50 in which these symptoms occur when feeding the projector a YCbCr input. If you feed it a RGB input, these problems disappear. Most Blu-ray players and cable boxes allow you to select either output mode.

Second, we confirmed the light output. If you want a D65 image with a flat gamma response at or above 2.2 and a Rec. 709 gamut, you are looking at 400 lumens +-10%. I was able to get 540 lumens out of it, but not with those performance specs.

BTW, the Vango light output is about on par with the JVC RS40 in low lamp mode when new, and the Vango's light output will remain stable for years of normal use.

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post #130 of 778 Old 01-16-2011, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Thanks for your report. Your value of 430 lumens in 709-calibrated mode seems very consistent with Mark's results. Jason's very early report of ~ 700 lumens thus must not have been for calibrated mode; this confused a lot of us since this wasn't made clear initially.

In Jason's review, he does say his measurements were taken after he calibrated the projector. Are there different "techniques" for measuring lumens? I'm sure Jason did measure what he said. I don't have enough experience to compare my Vango projector with other projectors with a know lumen measurement.

Just saw Tom's reply.....

Regards,
John
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post #131 of 778 Old 01-16-2011, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post


BTW, the Vango light output is about on par with the JVC RS40 in low lamp mode when new, and the Vango's light output will remain stable for years of normal use.

What iris setting on the RS40? I thought it was closer to 8-900 when new depending on iris setting...

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #132 of 778 Old 01-16-2011, 10:41 PM
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Spent a long day with Tom calibrating an RS40 and a Vangp. I will talk about the RS40 in another thread. Feeding the Vango RGB and RGB video the gamma was spot on. Everything after calibration was spot on. No correction was done with the Lumagen. Set up was done with Tom's Accupel. Congratulations to Rom who is now the owner of the Accupel company. Look for great things coming.

After Tom left, I reset the contrast and brightness using the internal Lumagen patterns. Interestingly while the Vando color space was set to auto, I needed to set the Radiance to RGB-video, to see all the set up bars, not RGB. I am not sure what is going on because I thought RGB out of the Lumagen would be 0 to 255 but it would appear RGB-video out is 0 to 255 but maybe I don't understand conditions the bars are shown. I intend to ask Lumagen tomorrow. Nevertheless, after resetting both parameters the picture looked the same as when Tom left.

The Vango looked as bright as the RS40 calibrated in low lamp mode and both measured about the same lumens. The Vango in the EE max brightness mode was very very bright, being a little less than Jason's measurements and way way too bright for my screen. The colors in this mode are known to be bot right being the price one pays by raising the white point but using the 3D tables in the EE color box for that mode are very watchable, just as advertised. That's it for now.

The RS40 was measured and calibrated with Iris at 0, that is wide open.

I would quibble with Tom's plus or minus 10 percent. We consistently measured the plus 10 percent. BTW we were a few feet longer than short throw on the short throw lens. To ones eyes the brightness was the same from a RS40, normal lamp mode. The RS40 having a slightly shorter throw and the Vango were positioned the same, one on top of the other, so throw ratio wise the RS40 was abot one foot further away from shortest throw,maybe 8 inches further from shortest throw than the Vango.

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post #133 of 778 Old 01-16-2011, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dormie1360 View Post

I don't have enough experience to compare my Vango projector with other projectors with a know lumen measurement.

Sure you do. Get an AEMC CA813 light meter for about $150. Get a calibration DVD (free download or $20-30 purchase). Put up a 100% test pattern. Place the meter at the screen facing the lens and read the lux value.

Lumens = Lux * Screen Area (in square meters)

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post #134 of 778 Old 01-16-2011, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

What iris setting on the RS40? I thought it was closer to 8-900 when new depending on iris setting...

Not in the low lamp mode.

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post #135 of 778 Old 01-17-2011, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Sure you do. Get an AEMC CA813 light meter for about $150. Get a calibration DVD (free download or $20-30 purchase). Put up a 100% test pattern. Place the meter at the screen facing the lens and read the lux value.

Lumens = Lux * Screen Area (in square meters)

See post 127. I meant no experience to date. The formula I used was slightly different. I assume it's for using a different Lux range on the meter.

Regards,
John

Regards,
John
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post #136 of 778 Old 01-17-2011, 07:16 AM
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Mark, two words.....spell checker!


Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Spent a long day with Tom calibrating an RS40 and a Vangp. I will talk about the RS40 in another thread. Feeding the Vango RGB and RGB video the gamma was spot on. Everything after calibration was spot on. No correction was done with the Lumagen. Set up was done with Tom; Accupel. Congratulations to Rom who is now the owner of the Accupel company.Look for great things coming.

Aster Tom left, I reset the contrast and brightness using the internal Lumagen patterns. Inyrtrdting while the Vando color space was set to auto, I needed to set the Radiance to RGB-video, to seee all the set up bars, not RGB. I asm noy sure what is going on because I thought RGN out of the Lumagen would be 0 to 255 but it would appear RGB-video out is 0 to 255 but maybe I don;t unfer under what conditions the bars are shown. I intend to ask Lumagen tomorrow. Nevertheless, after resetting both parameters the picture looked the same as when Tom left.

The Vango looked as bright as the RS40 calibrated in low lamp mode and both measured about the same lumens. The Vango in the EE max brightness mode was very very bright, being a little less than Jason;s measurements and way way too bright for my screen. The colors in this mode are known to be bot right being the price one pays by raising the white point but using the 3D tables in the EE color box for that mode are very watchable, just as advertised. That's it for now.

The RS40 was measured and calibrated with Iris at 0, that is wide open.

I would quibble with Tom's plus or minus 10 percent. We consistently measured the plus 10 percent. BTW we were a few feet longer than short throw on the short throw lens. To ones eyes the bnrightness was the same from a RS40, normal lamp mode. The RS40 having a poiny ine sgorter throw were positioned the same, one on top of the other, do throw ratio wise the RS40 was abot one foot further away from shortest throw )maaybe 8 inches.


Regards,
John
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post #137 of 778 Old 01-17-2011, 07:47 AM
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In case calculating sq meters scares anybody, you simply divide the sq footage of your screen by 10.76 to get sq meters. And if calculating sq footage scares you, to get sq feet multiply the height and width of your screening in inches and divide by 144 to get sq feet

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post #138 of 778 Old 01-17-2011, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dormie1360 View Post

See post 127. I meant no experience to date. The formula I used was slightly different. I assume it's for using a different Lux range on the meter.

Sorry. It is the same formula. Yours just uses square feet instead of meters.

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post #139 of 778 Old 01-17-2011, 09:08 AM
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I'm posting this for comparison purposes as it's opened my eyes to how bright or not my current projector is compared to the Vango:

I'm currently runing at 95 Lux on a 2.8 metre wide 2.35:1 screen with gain of 1.5. I calculate this as 13.2fL or so (95 lux x 0.0929 x 1.5 gain screen). [Measured with a new Tecpel 531 lux meter].

Reversing this back gives a surprisingly low 317 Lumens (3.34 metres square and 95 Lux = 95 x 3.34 = 317 Lumens). That's from a 650 hour lamp on a HD350 (calibrated to rec709 using a Video EQ Pro), so it shows how a Vango might compare to a 'traditional' UHP lamp projector once it has some hours on it. I might add that I'm at minimum throw, high lamp power and iris at -6 (service menu values from 0 brightest to -15 dimmest).

It seems that I'd have no issue achieving the same fL as now with a calibrated Vango, which I wouldn't have thought to be the case.

Is there an adjustment on the Vango that allows the output to be trimmed if it is higher than required? I'm happy with 13fL but much higher seems to hurt my eyes after a while and it also helps retain deeper blacks. The 400 Lumen figure would equate to 120 Lux which equals 16.7fL on my screen...more than I'd need.

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post #140 of 778 Old 01-17-2011, 10:57 AM
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The Vango does not have a moveable iris or lamp or led settings other than normal or the EE max brightness mode.

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post #141 of 778 Old 01-17-2011, 12:53 PM
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Thanks Mark. I thought there might be a control over the LED 'lamp' brightness, but in practice 16fL isn't going to look massively different to 13fL unless compared directly I suppose. It's the ANSI contrast 'pop' and the way the Vango can do a complete fade to black that appeals. I'm also interested in the low apl performance. I realise it may not match the newer JVCs on this score, but I wonder about how it would compare to my older HD350. I don't even know if there are any UK dealers for these, though in truth I'd maybe be looking to buy used anyway which could be a while off.

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post #142 of 778 Old 01-17-2011, 07:37 PM
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So what does all this mean? What lumens are we actually getting after Jason calibration? And Mark what lumens did you get with the color box implimented?

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post #143 of 778 Old 01-18-2011, 09:26 PM
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My unit was not calibrated by Jason. tom Huffman did it, and we have posted the lumens. In high brightness EE mode we were in the same ballpark as jason`s review. A tad lower but well within 10 percent. In calibrated d65 normal color space yada yada 2.2 gamma, the lumens were as Tom posted about the same as a calibrated JVC in normal lamp mode. It should be noted that the much higher ANSI of a DLP projector compared to the DLAs of the JVC, the picture appears much brighter to your eyes with more pop.

The Bango is a much better machine in many ways as it should be at over twice the MSRP of a RS40. It is a much better machine than the RS50 0r RS60 too. Obviouisly, the JVCs have a higher on off and win in dark scenes. But that's about it. At calibrated D65, rec709, normal gamut, the picture is just tremendous. Noise free, very uniform, with incredible true detail. Looking at faces, they look like you are there seeing every hair detail, wrinkle, pimple etc.

If you look at an RS40, the RS40 looks incredible but if you put the Vango next to it, its no contest. video perfection. My screen is 110 inch d, 1.3 gain. The high brightness mode is way too bright on my screen. Unwatchably bright.

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post #144 of 778 Old 01-18-2011, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

My unit was not calibrated by Jason. tom Huffman did it, and we have posted the lumens. In high brightness EE mode we were in the same ballpark as jason`s review. A tad lower but well within 10 percent. In calibrated d65 normal color space yada yada 2.2 gamma, the lumens were as Tom posted about the same as a calibrated JVC in normal lamp mode. It should be noted that the much higher ANSI of a DLP projector compared to the DLAs of the JVC, the picture appears much brighter to your eyes with more pop.

The Bango is a much better machine in many ways as it should be at over twice the MSRP of a RS40. It is a much better machine than the RS50 0r RS60 too. Obviouisly, the JVCs have a higher on off and win in dark scenes. But that's about it. At calibrated D65, rec709, normal gamut, the picture is just tremendous. Noise free, very uniform, with incredible true detail. Looking at faces, they look like you are there seeing every hair detail, wrinkle, pimple etc.

If you look at an RS40, the RS40 looks incredible but if you put the Vango next to it, its no contest. video perfection. My screen is 110 inch d, 1.3 gain. The high brightness mode is way too bright on my screen. Unwatchably bright.

Look forward to seeing it, Mark. In calibrated mode, it gives ~ 14 ftL on your screen, as you and Tom have reported. This is generally considered plenty bright, though many people like it as much as twice (or more) ftL than this. You (and others) say, though, that the Vango's pic appears brighter than the numbers imply. As I said, I look forward to seeing it.
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post #145 of 778 Old 01-19-2011, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

The Bango is a much better machine in many ways as it should be at over twice the MSRP of a RS40. It is a much better machine than the RS50 0r RS60 too. Obviouisly, the JVCs have a higher on off and win in dark scenes. But that's about it. At calibrated D65, rec709, normal gamut, the picture is just tremendous. Noise free, very uniform, with incredible true detail. Looking at faces, they look like you are there seeing every hair detail, wrinkle, pimple etc.

would it have helped if the Vango had an iris to increase contrast by reducing light output?
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post #146 of 778 Old 01-19-2011, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manoharshetty9 View Post

would it have helped if the Vango had an iris to increase contrast by reducing light output?

I am not absolutely sure, but I thought the LED source could be modulated which does the iris approach one better.

Meanwhile, I have not suffered a single instance of 'lumen lust' with the Vango. My screen gain is about 1.3, the size is 54 square feet and the ceiling is white. A recipe for disaster---except it is not. Even with Jason's rec. 709 calibration.

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post #147 of 778 Old 01-19-2011, 12:20 PM
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Quote:


would it have helped if the Vango had an iris to increase contrast by reducing light output?

I'm guessing more features like this will come in future generations - probably at a cost.

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post #148 of 778 Old 01-19-2011, 12:47 PM
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It appears that the most recently described calibration of the Vango was done with a Radiance.

Can anyone comment as to the quality/utility of the self contained CMS within the Vango?

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post #149 of 778 Old 01-19-2011, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Snyder View Post

It appears that the most recently described calibration of the Vango was done with a Radiance.

Can anyone comment as to the quality/utility of the self contained CMS within the Vango?

We did not use the Radiance for color correction. The Vango's internal CMS works quite nicely. My only beef with it is that the menu stays planted in the middle of the screen while you make adjustments, so you have to place the sensor at the side of the screen.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
Springfield, MO

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post #150 of 778 Old 01-22-2011, 04:40 PM
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My own performance was not so cool. Twice I left the lens cap ON the projector, watched the entire movie and then discovered it was on. Some will raise an eyebrow and think that this merely confirms their suspicions about me. But the cool part is that in each case, after multiple hours of projection, the cap was dead stone cold. Room temperature. My D-ILAs would have cooked that sucker. That's cool.

PS: In my defense, the caps ARE clear.

Sony G90-->D-ILA--> LCD-->Vango LED DLP
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