Older higher-end 720p model vs less expensive 1080p model - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 56 Old 02-12-2011, 12:05 PM
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Good idea, I didn't think about that.
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post #32 of 56 Old 02-12-2011, 02:44 PM
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This 1080p thing is often overblown, unless you have a 120in screen it doesnt add up many MANY times and you simply cant tell the difference. I have had a Panasonic PTAX100U, a Mitsubishi 6500, a Sony VPL100.......friends own similar models from 720p to 1080p and you have to convince yourself you see the difference. 3 out of 4 of us have the SOTA Oppo Bluray player aswell and full HDMI cable or satelite.
So its not an issue of signal, its not an issue of hookup, its not an issue of a bad player...........its simply not the big deal many try to sell.
If somebody were to get a 720p model with a better quality lense and scaler over a more budget 1080p model that may indeed be a better buy in both money and real world video quality. If you can get that great image and scaler on a SOTA 1080p model then by all means get the newer and warranty protected item for sure. Lets just not sell the myth that 1080p is the only way to.......its a lie.
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post #33 of 56 Old 02-12-2011, 03:40 PM
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Get a Marantz VP-12S4 The last of the great 720p DPL projectors. The Minolta lens alone was over $5000. It has a computerized color and lamp gamma corrector built in. Put lens cap sensor on lens plug in and press button. No need for IMF calibration. Mine is always spot on after I change bulb or after I
think it might have drifted. Marantz eliminated that feature on later 1080p projectors . Too expensive. Read about this projector on the Marantz web site and Google all the rave reviews it got.

I also have a Marantz 1080p VP-15S1 for bluray dvd's, but it is hard to tell, unless you walk close to the screen, which projector is plying, The color is better on the VP-12S4. I use the 12S4 to watch sports (Superbowl) on Fox and ABC they broadcast over the air at 720p. The 15S1 is brighter , but I have a DaLite high power screen and use the lowest aperture setting and economy mode on both projectors. I sit 10 feet away from my 96 inch diagonal 16x9 screen, I see no pixels (screen door) from a perfectly focused,across the whole screen I have an Oppo 83 and a pioneer Elite 23 receiver with 2 HDMI outs so I can compare both projectors using an identical source.. I do have 20:20 vision. I have looked at the JVC and Sony 3 chip projectors and would not trade for their best units.

Tony
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post #34 of 56 Old 02-12-2011, 05:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyjur View Post

Get a Marantz VP-12S4 The last of the great 720p DPL projectors. The Minolta lens alone was over $5000. It has a computerized color and lamp gamma corrector built in. Put lens cap sensor on lens plug in and press button. No need for IMF calibration. Mine is always spot on after I change bulb or after I
think it might have drifted. Marantz eliminated that feature on later 1080p projectors . Too expensive. Read about this projector on the Marantz web site and Google all the rave reviews it got.

I also have a Marantz 1080p VP-15S1 for bluray dvd's, but it is hard to tell, unless you walk close to the screen, which projector is plying, The color is better on the VP-12S4. I use the 12S4 to watch sports (Superbowl) on Fox and ABC they broadcast over the air at 720p. The 15S1 is brighter , but I have a DaLite high power screen and use the lowest aperture setting and economy mode on both projectors. I sit 10 feet away from my 96 inch diagonal 16x9 screen, I see no pixels (screen door) from a perfectly focused,across the whole screen I have an Oppo 83 and a pioneer Elite 23 receiver with 2 HDMI outs so I can compare both projectors using an identical source.. I do have 20:20 vision. I have looked at the JVC and Sony 3 chip projectors and would not trade for their best units.

The 12S4 is a great projector. I love mine, shooting on to a 106" High Power screen. I use mine in my family room set up. I wish that it would work in my dedicated room, but the throw is too long.
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post #35 of 56 Old 02-12-2011, 09:50 PM
 
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I've looked at a few of these projectors recently, and what it comes down to is that an older Runco/Vidikron/Sim2 type projector will be razor sharp even at 720p, but truth be told a new cheaper 1080p DLP will offer similar results (in many ways single chip DLP = sharp, end of story). So if all you need is sharpness and color accuracy, these older DLP models are a great find. But, if you can see rainbows at all on the DLP's (I do), or would like your blacks to look anywhere near black, then forget about it. The newer LCOS projectors, or LED DLP's simply blow them out of the water. However, I haven't seen all the old stock and would love to hear otherwise (perhaps the Marantz or Sharp can manage solid blacks?). My recommendation would be a new JVC or, if you have the change, that new Vango.
As a side note, I saw that new Runco Q750i and it is simply amazing, though the blacks weren't as strong as the JVC, and it didn't have a whole lot of horsepower in the lumens department. Still, you get the feeling you are looking at something basically perfect.
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post #36 of 56 Old 02-12-2011, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by bronsonbdevost View Post

I've looked at a few of these projectors recently, and what it comes down to is that an older Runco/Vidikron/Sim2 type projector will be razor sharp even at 720p, but truth be told a new cheaper 1080p DLP will offer similar results (in many ways single chip DLP = sharp, end of story). So if all you need is sharpness and color accuracy, these older DLP models are a great find. But, if you can see rainbows at all on the DLP's (I do), or would like your blacks to look anywhere near black, then forget about it. The newer LCOS projectors, or LED DLP's simply blow them out of the water. However, I haven't seen all the old stock and would love to hear otherwise (perhaps the Marantz or Sharp can manage solid blacks?). My recommendation would be a new JVC or, if you have the change, that new Vango.
As a side note, I saw that new Runco Q750i and it is simply amazing, though the blacks weren't as strong as the JVC, and it didn't have a whole lot of horsepower in the lumens department. Still, you get the feeling you are looking at something basically perfect.

I dont think its $15,000 amazing, take $10k off that and maybe we can talk.
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post #37 of 56 Old 02-13-2011, 02:10 AM
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I have a light controlled room with dark walls. The blacks I get with my Marantz single chip DLP projectors equal the best I have seen in projector showrooms demonstrating the current generation JVC projectors. The sharpness and color are clearly superior. When viewed close up,you can see the miss-alignment of the 3 pixels and the chromatic aberrations of the JVC lens.
On my High Power screen the black from the projected image cannot be differentiated from the black of the screen border frame. They are equally black when next to each other. You cannot get any blacker than that. I think the High Power screen's narrow viewing angle also helps a lot by not reflecting back light from objects and side walls in the room. I have no need for screen masking curtains with my set up. I went from Barco, Runco and NEC CRT projectors to the Marantz single chip DLP. The Marantz comes closest to the best blacks I achieved with CRT, with the sharpest detail and spot on color.
I don't see any rainbows with these projectors.

Tony
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post #38 of 56 Old 02-13-2011, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyjur View Post

I have a light controlled room with dark walls. The blacks I get with my Marantz single chip DLP projectors equal the best I have seen in projector showrooms demonstrating the current generation JVC projectors.

And which model number would that be exactly .. need to keep an eye out for that!
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post #39 of 56 Old 02-13-2011, 07:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyjur View Post

I have a light controlled room with dark walls. The blacks I get with my Marantz single chip DLP projectors equal the best I have seen in projector showrooms demonstrating the current generation JVC projectors. The sharpness and color are clearly superior. When viewed close up,you can see the miss-alignment of the 3 pixels and the chromatic aberrations of the JVC lens.
On my High Power screen the black from the projected image cannot be differentiated from the black of the screen border frame. They are equally black when next to each other. You cannot get any blacker than that. I think the High Power screen's narrow viewing angle also helps a lot by not reflecting back light from objects and side walls in the room. I have no need for screen masking curtains with my set up. I went from Barco, Runco and NEC CRT projectors to the Marantz single chip DLP. The Marantz comes closest to the best blacks I achieved with CRT, with the sharpest detail and spot on color.
I don't see any rainbows with these projectors.

This is very good to know. I had heard that Marantz did well in this area and have been curious for a long time, I can't find anywhere to demo them. May I ask, it seems that you prefer the 12S4, is that the case? Also, I hadn't thought about pairing those with a high contrast screen (I'm assuming it's not a gray screen though). Do you see any sparklies? Also, do you see rainbows on any projectors, the older 720p Runco I demoed had so many rainbows everywhere, it made me feel sick.
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post #40 of 56 Old 02-13-2011, 07:30 AM
 
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I dont think its $15,000 amazing, take $10k off that and maybe we can talk.

Yeah $15K is really too much, but the Vango is for sale here on AVS for around $10K. Just remember the lamp is rated for 50,000 hours (almost 6 years straight) or so. That is the equivalent of 25 lamps (25x$400=$10,000). So if you are a really heavy user it seems really economical to me. That doesn't mean I'm going to run out and buy one. But, I'd like to get my hands on one 2 years down the road with 10,000 hours on the lamp.
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post #41 of 56 Old 02-13-2011, 08:11 AM
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We have some friends that have an Optoma HD20 and about a 110" screen.

Frankly, I'm not all that impressed.

I prefer our Yamaha LPX-510 at 720p or 1080i.

I had been thinking of upgrading our projector and the HD20 was on the list due to it's price point and being 1080p.

But after I saw the picture it throws, I took it off the list.

If it were me, and this is what I am doing, I would hold out until you can get a good 1080p. We have decided to concentrate on room treatment, acoustic treatments, new receiver, speakers, etc., and then get a new projector at year end.

Jerry

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post #42 of 56 Old 02-13-2011, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by bronsonbdevost View Post
I've looked at a few of these projectors recently, and what it comes down to is that an older Runco/Vidikron/Sim2 type projector will be razor sharp even at 720p, but truth be told a new cheaper 1080p DLP will offer similar results (in many ways single chip DLP = sharp, end of story). So if all you need is sharpness and color accuracy, these older DLP models are a great find. But, if you can see rainbows at all on the DLP's (I do), or would like your blacks to look anywhere near black, then forget about it. The newer LCOS projectors, or LED DLP's simply blow them out of the water. However, I haven't seen all the old stock and would love to hear otherwise (perhaps the Marantz or Sharp can manage solid blacks?). My recommendation would be a new JVC or, if you have the change, that new Vango.
As a side note, I saw that new Runco Q750i and it is simply amazing, though the blacks weren't as strong as the JVC, and it didn't have a whole lot of horsepower in the lumens department. Still, you get the feeling you are looking at something basically perfect.
I also recently saw the Runco Q750i and while is was a very good picture, cool, quiet, I did not think it was that much better than the Runco LS-3 in the next room. Definitely not 3x the price better, and since this dealer had the LS-3 closer to $4k, that leaves a lot of lamps to make up the nearly $11k difference.

Was it good? Very! But not worth the kind of money they are currently asking.

Jerry

ÂExperience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny. Thomas Jefferson
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post #43 of 56 Old 02-13-2011, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyjur View Post
I have a light controlled room with dark walls. The blacks I get with my Marantz single chip DLP projectors equal the best I have seen in projector showrooms demonstrating the current generation JVC projectors. The sharpness and color are clearly superior. When viewed close up,you can see the miss-alignment of the 3 pixels and the chromatic aberrations of the JVC lens.
On my High Power screen the black from the projected image cannot be differentiated from the black of the screen border frame. They are equally black when next to each other. You cannot get any blacker than that. I think the High Power screen's narrow viewing angle also helps a lot by not reflecting back light from objects and side walls in the room. I have no need for screen masking curtains with my set up. I went from Barco, Runco and NEC CRT projectors to the Marantz single chip DLP. The Marantz comes closest to the best blacks I achieved with CRT, with the sharpest detail and spot on color.
I don't see any rainbows with these projectors.
You must be in possession of a Marantz 11s2 and not the 12s4. I owned the 12s4 and the black levels while decent, are in no way comparable to the newer jvc models...the difference is drastic. The marantz may be sharper with much higher ansi contrast but it's advantages end there(excluding build quality).

Your comment about the blacks of the marantz matching the borders of your screen through me for a loop. I used two different screens when I had the 12s4. One was the da-lite high contrast grey screen while the other was a white 2.0 gain Draper. When projected, the blacks on both screens were dark gray... in no way did they come close to the borders of the screen. In fact, I've never seen or heard of any digital projector (excluding led) capable of such a feat. Your 12s4 sounds exceptional.
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post #44 of 56 Old 02-13-2011, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by tonyjur View Post
On my High Power screen the black from the projected image cannot be differentiated from the black of the screen border frame. They are equally black when next to each other.
Are you talking about during brighter images with black, or claiming this even for blackouts and dark images overall?

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post #45 of 56 Old 02-13-2011, 12:21 PM
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My screen is a Da-Lite High Power, not High Contrast, as I mistakenly wrote. Big difference. Sorry! The projectors are stacked and mounted in the sweet spot, right behind my head. I get all the light reflected back to where I sit.The screen is retro reflective with a very narrow cone. Read Tryg's thread on Da-Lite High Power in the Screens Forum for reviews. Bought the screen from Jason and it made the biggest difference. My old High Contrast screen produced a very dim image forcing me to open up the iris, setting lamp to normal instead of economy and boosting the contrast setting. The blacks turned grey.The High Power screen fixed all that for me.

I have a 12S4 and a 15S1 not an 11S2. If anyone has a 11S2 for sale let me know. I do prefer the 15S1 1080p for exceptional bluray transfers like Avatar and Barakka and for it's other features. Viewing average bluray discs it is hard to tell them apart however. 720p broadcast sports look better on the 720p 12S4. I am lucky to have both. Of course the Oppo 83 helps also. Best bluray player by far!

Tony
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post #46 of 56 Old 02-16-2011, 04:42 AM
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The Marantz and Sharp are really good suggestions. There are good deals on them and the picture quality would be amazing.

Plus, if you took a 720P projector with a anamorphic lens wouldn't you have the same lines of resolution as using a 1080P without a anamorphic lens? If that's true then a smart solution could be to use 720p 16:9 on HDTV content which is mostly 720p anyway. For 1080P you can use the lens because most of that stuff is 2.35.

Is that the right thinking?
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post #47 of 56 Old 02-16-2011, 11:18 AM
 
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Plus, if you took a 720P projector with a anamorphic lens wouldn't you have the same lines of resolution as using a 1080P without a anamorphic lens? If that's true then a smart solution could be to use 720p 16:9 on HDTV content which is mostly 720p anyway. For 1080P you can use the lens because most of that stuff is 2.35.

Is that the right thinking?
That's not quite right. 1080p is 1080 vertical lines and 1920 horizontal ones, while 720p is 720X1280. So an anamorphic lens on a 720p projector will give you 2.35:1 material using 720x1280=921,600 pixels total. That same film on a 1080p projector without an anamorphic lens will use 818(out of its available 1080)x1920=1,570,560 pixels, which is a pretty big difference.

However, if you are comparing a single chip 720p projector, to a 1080p LCD/LCOS 3 chip projector, the pictures will probably be fairly comparable due to convergence issues with the 3 chippers. The 720p single chip can even look better in some cases. So, a high end 720p single chip projector can give you a great picture with an anamorph lens.

I'm just not convinced that any but the best (maybe marantz/sim2) can get the black levels that rival a JVC. Personally the Runco I saw looked like crap, and the dealer wanted $5500. I wish I could demo some of these to see for myself, since I've found opinions in this regard, my own included, to be highly subjective.
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post #48 of 56 Old 02-16-2011, 09:26 PM
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I see, that makes more sense. I guess it is a big difference in numbers. That explains why the 720 units have fallen so much in price.
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post #49 of 56 Old 02-17-2011, 03:52 PM
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Interesting thread. I have a Planar PD7150 that just blew. Was wondering whether to buy a replacement bulb for $150 or buy a 1080P project for under $1000.
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post #50 of 56 Old 03-15-2011, 09:59 PM
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I've got a similar question: a used, mint condition Sony "Pearl" VPL-VW50 vs. an Epson 8350.

There's a big difference in brightness (at least in terms of specs) between the two. But what about other aspects of the picture - color, contrast, motion processing?

Thanks!
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post #51 of 56 Old 03-16-2011, 05:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Grayson73 View Post

Interesting thread. I have a Planar PD7150 that just blew. Was wondering whether to buy a replacement bulb for $150 or buy a 1080P project for under $1000.

I have the PD-7130 and I have the Marantz VP-12S4. The 12S4 throws a lot better image.
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post #52 of 56 Old 03-16-2011, 06:01 AM
 
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I've got a similar question: a used, mint condition Sony "Pearl" VPL-VW50 vs. an Epson 8350.

There's a big difference in brightness (at least in terms of specs) between the two. But what about other aspects of the picture - color, contrast, motion processing?

Thanks!

Image wise, I would take the VW50 plus High Power over the 8350 on any screen. Now you do have to consider warranty and lamp cost, but based on image alone the VW50, but as I said I think you need the High Power to go with the VW50.
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post #53 of 56 Old 03-26-2013, 12:24 PM
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I'm still running my Planar PD7150 but am thinking about upgrading to the Epson 8350.

Would people still get a high end 720p projector over a new budget 1080p projector such as the Epson 8350, BenQ W1070, and Panasonic PT-AR100U?
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post #54 of 56 Old 03-27-2013, 06:47 PM
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The biggest change is obviously going to be resolution. The one thing the Planar has is decent optics. The one's you've mentioned are considered to be low budget 1080p projectors. Now, while the Planar may have better optics, the increase in resolution will still trump those better optics and an over all "sharper" look to the picture. If you want to stick with DLP go with the BenQ w1070 for sure, but the Epson 8350 is a great machine that has a very well rounded 2D picture for the price. Definitely some of the best black levels and contrast in the ~$1000 range of projectors. If you're interested in 3D go for the BenQ for sure. It will be brighter and have a visibly sharper picture compared to the Epson. But I think for 2D picture quality the Epson is hard to beat in this price range.

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post #55 of 56 Old 03-27-2013, 07:50 PM
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Any recommendations on an older Runco Vx-1000c vs. a newer Sony HW50ES?
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post #56 of 56 Old 03-27-2013, 08:06 PM
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Putting cost aside the Sony HW50ES is a much better choice. I got to demo one for about 5 hours two weekends ago. For the price it is a fantastic product that really puts other projectors at or below $4000 street price to shame. Others tout JVC prjectors because of their amazing black levels but as far as everything else is concerned the HW50ES is the better choice.

It's hard to compare the performance of something like the HW50ES to a 720p projector that is a decade old. The world of projector performance in that time span has gone through a few revolutions. I would say, if you have the option, visit a local home theater shop and demo some 1080p projectors. I think you're in for quite the surprise.

How much are you looking to spend? I'd be glad (and I'm sure other will be too) to give you some options to look at if you gave us a price range.

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