Official JVC RS-50 Owner's Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Highlander_AVS View Post

Yeah ....
The truth is that JVC never will come across the problem in mass production units and, as usual, will be necessary the "manual" selection by dealers that will/can do this or point at top model where hand picked parts let have a good starting point and got a bit more checked unit class.

In my experience, last year I saw and selected several RS25, one excellent, many very good but much more in the middle zone value .... while RS35 were almost all excellent ...

3 Chips alignment seems like to be an odissey .... and far away to hit the perfection ....

What do you consider middle zone value?
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post #272 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Highlander_AVS View Post

Yeah ....
The truth is that JVC never will come across the problem in mass production units and, as usual, will be necessary the "manual" selection by dealers that will/can do this or point at top model where hand picked parts let have a good starting point and got a bit more checked unit class.

In my experience, last year I saw and selected several RS25, one excellent, many very good but much more in the middle zone value .... while RS35 were almost all excellent ...

3 Chips alignment seems like to be an odissey .... and far away to hit the perfection ....

True. But, a typical JVC has pretty good convergence. I might not be 100% happy with "typical," but I think that I could ultimately accept it.

Affable Nitwit
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post #273 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

What do you consider middle zone value?

The most part.
Units that have mis allignment not costant over all the screen zones
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post #274 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 05:11 AM
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I'll try the built in an the Edge's patterns (same as the Duo I hope?), just for comparsion. Either I've got a 'good' HD350 (can't believe I'd be that lucky) or there isn't an improvement in the newer models, or they're just as variable which I suppose is to be expected especial early on in production.

While I guess I'm a little off topic it's still interesting to where the new models have and have not improved over the older ones.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #275 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

True. But, a typical JVC has pretty good convergence. I might not be 100% happy with "typical," but I think that I could ultimately accept it.

True this one too
Either because, luckly, we didn't live into see at Patterns all the time on the Screens, But Movies !
And looking at Movies JVC will always give the gift of satisfation at last !
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post #276 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

This is the in-built convergence test in the JVC projectors. I always use this to really evaluate and I find it the most "telling".

You can see it matches the DVDO Duo white grid images.

I didn't spot that pattern - I have to try that. Thanks! I was using a (Pro Grade) Zoom at about 145mm from about 2'.

Without the Chief mount I have to position the pj in a non-optimal position (lots of H-Shift) and I'll just have to live with that until the RPM281 becomes available. However, for testing convergence I am going to reposition the pj so I don't need no stenkin-shift. Eliminating that variable may or may not impact the findings and if it does then it's not MC but more like CA.

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post #277 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

. . . or to me either.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, make sure that your player is in a dot-for-dot mode and not applying any kind of scaling.

Single pixel 1080p shots are only properly displayed if the player is not scaling and is outputting a true 1080p image. If it is not, the projector will scale it (or the player will) and things will not look as they should.

If everything is as it should be, I would drive back to AVS.

Good point. I will put the Oppo in Source Direct mode. I will also try that internal pattern Jon used.

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post #278 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Geof View Post

I didn't spot that pattern - I have to try that. Thanks! I was using a (Pro Grade) Zoom at about 145mm from about 2'.

Without the Chief mount I have to position the pj in a non-optimal position (lots of H-Shift) and I'll just have to live with that until the RPM281 becomes available. However, for testing convergence I am going to reposition the pj so I don't need no stenkin-shift. Eliminating that variable may or may not impact the findings and if it does then it's not MC but more like CA.


I was using a Nikon D700 and pro-grade 50mm. The trouble is when you take this with auto exposure you are going to run into troubles. With the later shots, I found I needed to under-expose the image by dialling in an exposure compensation of -2.0. If you are doing it handheld you will want the aperture wide open to keep the shutter speed up. On the other hand the lens will show its softness an CA more then.
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post #279 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

I was using a Nikon D700 and pro-grade 50mm. The trouble is when you take this with auto exposure you are going to run into troubles. With the later shots, I found I needed to under-expose the image by dialling in an exposure compensation of -2.0. If you are doing it handheld you will want the aperture wide open to keep the shutter speed up. On the other hand the lens will show its softness an CA more then.

I have a D700 also. I did dial in exposure compensation and I focused using Live View. I use a tripod for this stuff..... I am going to use the original 85mm T/S lens today...it's incredibly sharp and I can tilt it a bit so I can move the camera out of the way but still have most of the grid in focus. I have a 1.4 AF-S 50 as well but I'll probably just bump up the iso to use the slower 85/2.8 lens (Aren't you on Nikon Cafe??).

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post #280 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Kelvin, have a look at these photos. I think the AVS ones make everything look a lot worse somehow than reality.

This is the DVDO Duo single pixel grid 50 IRE

Just centre and top right (worst) images here now. Same camera, same lens, distance 1.5 feet. This looks much more like I see it, although there is blue bloom on the top right image that seems exaggerated here as well.

Ultimately what it comes down for me is if it is noticeable while viewing regular material. This has a tendency to show up with on-screen text (movie credits, video game HUDs and messages/instructions), sports score overlays and so forth.

If I was happy with the pj overall, and didn't notice any red fringing with regular material from my normal viewing distance I would probably accept it.

Also you say this is the upper right corner. So I think it also depends on how big of a section we are talking about that has MC at this large level. If its literately the immediate corner area I wouldn't tent to worry about it much. If its an area say about 1/8th of the screen that may be another matter.

I have mentioned a number of times that the luck-of-the-draw aspect of buy a JVC projector is the number one reason I hesitate to upgrade. Because who wants to go from a machine with great convergence to one with mediocre or poor convergence, even if other aspects of the new pj are better?
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post #281 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Ultimately what it comes down for me is if it is noticeable while viewing regular material. This has a tendency to show up with on-screen text (movie credits, video game HUDs and messages/instructions), sports score overlays and so forth.

If I was happy with the pj overall, and didn't notice any red fringing with regular material from my normal viewing distance I would probably accept it.

Also you say this is the upper right corner. So I think it also depends on how big of a section we are talking about that has MC at this large level. If its literately the immediate corner area I wouldn't tent to worry about it much. If its an area say about 1/8th of the screen that may be another matter.

I have mentioned a number of times that the luck-of-the-draw aspect of buy a JVC projector is the number one reason I hesitate to upgrade. Because who wants to go from a machine with great convergence to one with mediocre or poor convergence, even if other aspects of the new pj are better?


It is worst in that top right corner, and progressively gets better towards the centre as you can see from the centre image. Also it strangely, gets progressively a little better towards the bottom right corner but its still there. The point is , its within 1 pixel over the entire screen, which I am sure JVC would argue was well within tolerance.

However, it is worse when I first switch it on, because red seems to move slightly to the right (0.3 pixels) as it warms up. In fact, when just switching on, I would actually choose to shift red...but within 5 minutes that would be wrong. It shifts about 0.2 of a pixel in those 5 minutes, and then a little more over the next 5-10. So I leave it as it is, which means red is about 1.2 pixels out in that corner for about 5 minutes. Once again JVC UK say, that convergence changing with temperature is also normal. It may not swing as much after more hours but it will always do it.

Everything else is fine on the projector. Uniformity is good. I don't see the red fringing from seated, but obviously this would be a factor of distance vs screensize. My screen size is 80" diagonal and I sit about 8 feet away.

Its a tough call..I would have liked it to be better...but to be honest, I don't think JVC would swap it even if I wanted to.
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post #282 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

....
I have mentioned a number of times that the luck-of-the-draw aspect of buy a JVC projector is the number one reason I hesitate to upgrade. Because who wants to go from a machine with great convergence to one with mediocre or poor convergence, even if other aspects of the new pj are better?

Right Ric...
Anyway I really didn't want to miss every year new features and improvements
So, from my point of view, better to catch a way in which the upgrade will not be a lottery and I found a way that makes me able to select my machine...

Necessity, builds Virtue .....
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post #283 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by adidadi View Post

You are most likely correct, but I've never been accused of being over prudent. I'm sure things will settle, but it looks so darn good right now I am happy with it. Jeff will not be out in California until April, so John was kind enough to give me his December slot.

I also got to go over to watch Jeff calibrate and see the before and after and I have to say what a great improvement, I thought it looked good before, now even better, RS50 owners are going to be really happy with calibration.
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post #284 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

It is worst in that top right corner, and progressively gets better towards the centre as you can see from the centre image. Also it strangely, gets progressively a little better towards the bottom right corner but its still there. The point is , its within 1 pixel over the entire screen, which I am sure JVC would argue was well within tolerance.

However, it is worse when I first switch it on, because red seems to move slightly to the right (0.3 pixels) as it warms up. In fact, when just switching on, I would actually choose to shift red...but within 5 minutes that would be wrong. It shifts about 0.2 of a pixel in those 5 minutes, and then a little more over the next 5-10. So I leave it as it is, which means red is about 1.2 pixels out in that corner for about 5 minutes. Once again JVC UK say, that convergence changing with temperature is also normal. It may not swing as much after more hours but it will always do it.

Everything else is fine on the projector. Uniformity is good. I don't see the red fringing from seated, but obviously this would be a factor of distance vs screensize. My screen size is 80" diagonal and I sit about 8 feet away.

Its a tough call..I would have liked it to be better...but to be honest, I don't think JVC would swap it even if I wanted to.

I don't think we every got an answer on what JVC considers in spec or not when it comes to convergence. I wonder if we will?

I know what I find acceptable. Anything over 0.5 pixels is objectionable to me. Even a bit less is objectionable actually. But I'll tolerate a reasonable amount of of that off center as long as its excellent in the center and surrounding areas.

I agree with what you are saying. This is why I think it is really important for people to buy from a dealer they know will stand up for them if necessary.
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post #285 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 12:02 PM
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Convergence is looking a lot better today. I centered the lens and repositioned the pj so no H-Shift is req'd. There is a bit of v-shift but not a lot.

As you can see from the photo's convergence looks much better. Still not perfect but I think this is acceptable.

Lawguy, I also put the Oppo in source direct and also tried the setting I had last night (1080p) and observed no difference. Other DVD players may not behave so well tho....

I have only uploaded one series of photo's - the 3 were taken near the right edge (near vertical center). There are some variations across the screen but for the most part the photo's are pretty representative of how things look across the entire screen. The grid looks mostly white when I stand back 5'.
The first shot is with an internal pattern. The next two are using v2 of the AVS disc - the only difference being that I shifted Blue by 1 pixel to show the change.

Ric, I will check out scrolling credits sometime today.

Earlier, I posted that the v1.3 of the AVS Disc exhibited flashing and flickering and that is consistent. Version 2.0 of that disc does not have any issues....it displays normally with no flashes or flickers. I don't know if this is a disc issue (Kris Deering noted the same thing) or a JVC issue, but so far that problem has not been noted by any owners while watching real content. For now I put this in the "hummm" category and unless this shows up somewhere down the line I'm no longer considering it an issue.

As to the video noise, it's there. The noise is present for a fairly wide range of grey shades and is visible a foot away from the screen. If I back off to 3' most of it cannot be seen. If I back off to 5' I have to really try hard to see it. It is completely a non factor at my seated position (for reference my screen is 81" wide and sit back 156" [13']). I don't believe this is an issue - especially for real content (as compared to test patterns).
LL
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LL

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post #286 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 01:13 PM
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So does one have to use a computer to update the firmware? Not a USB stick? My computer is very far away from the projector and I hate to movie it.

Too bad since there is an ethernet type attachment on the 50 it can't be used to update the firmware.
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post #287 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 01:25 PM
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So does one have to use a computer to update the firmware? Not a USB stick? My computer is very far away from the projector and I hate to movie it.

Too bad since there is an ethernet type attachment on the 50 it can't be used to update the firmware.

Greetings,

Yes you need to use a PC or laptop. You will also need a usb cable with standard usb on one end and mini-usb on the other. The update only takes a few minutes and the provided instructions are very easy to follow.


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post #288 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Convergence is looking a lot better today. I centered the lens and repositioned the pj so no H-Shift is req'd. There is a bit of v-shift but not a lot.

As you can see from the photo's convergence looks much better. Still not perfect but I think this is acceptable.

Lawguy, I also put the Oppo in source direct and also tried the setting I had last night (1080p) and observed no difference. Other DVD players may not behave so well tho....

I have only uploaded one series of photo's - the 3 were taken near the right edge (near vertical center). There are some variations across the screen but for the most part the photo's are pretty representative of how things look across the entire screen. The grid looks mostly white when I stand back 5'.
The first shot is with an internal pattern. The next two are using v2 of the AVS disc - the only difference being that I shifted Blue by 1 pixel to show the change.

Ric, I will check out scrolling credits sometime today.

Earlier, I posted that the v1.3 of the AVS Disc exhibited flashing and flickering and that is consistent. Version 2.0 of that disc does not have any issues....it displays normally with no flashes or flickers. I don't know if this is a disc issue (Kris Deering noted the same thing) or a JVC issue, but so far that problem has not been noted by any owners while watching real content. For now I put this in the "hummm" category and unless this shows up somewhere down the line I'm no longer considering it an issue.

As to the video noise, it's there. The noise is present for a fairly wide range of grey shades and is visible a foot away from the screen. If I back off to 3' most of it cannot be seen. If I back off to 5' I have to really try hard to see it. It is completely a non factor at my seated position (for reference my screen is 81" wide and sit back 156" [13']). I don't believe this is an issue - especially for real content (as compared to test patterns).

Geof - yes indeed this looks much better. Mark has been a big proponent of not using horizontal shift (or as little as possible) due to this and other related issues.

The blue especially in the third photo looks off quite a bit. Out of all the colors though, that's the one to have off if you're going to have some MC. It looks like its out about a 1/2 pixel or more. Any way to get an even closer picture - perhaps zoomed from where you are taking this?

Also is your pj mounted and inverted. Sometimes hanging it upside down changes the MC for better or worse (even tough of course it is designed for inverted mounting).

ANOTHER PATTERN: Geof - there is another pattern I would LOVE to see from your projector. I think its in the same section where the convergence pattern is. It is on the same AVS HD 709 disc. Its a circular pattern. Basically a spiral / spoke looking thing. You can't miss it once you see it you'll be like oh that's what he's talking about.

Can you post a photo of this, both from your seating position as well as from about half distance from your seated position?

This pattern checks convergence errors and resolution. Basically, the deeper into the center of the pattern you can clearly see, the more resolution and detail that is being revealed. Use the Detail Enhance function in conjunction with this pattern to determine the optimal setting (probably around 30). You'll see as Detail Enhance goes up from 0 you'll start to see deeper and deeper into the center. Then you'll reach a point where increasing the setting doesn't go any deeper - that's when you know you are at the right setting.

Also this pattern shows convergence and other such issues because the pattern is SUPPOSED to be purely grey. No color at all. However you will likely see some red and/or green within the circle. The less of this, the better.

Please post the photo of this so we can check it out. Thanks.
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post #289 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 01:35 PM
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Greetings,

I had an unusal occurence this afternoon. While switching from one source to another on my Anthem AVM50v pre/pro it lost snych with the RS50. After switching back and forth in an attempt to rectify the problem the projector stopped sending images. The lamp was still on however the screen was blank (no blue background just dark).

It wouldn't respond to the remote or direct button presses on the unit therefore I couldn't power it down. As much as I hated to do it I had to disconnect power. Later it seemed okay but this was quite unnerving and it never happend with the RS20 or RS1x I have previously owned.

I have noticed that the RS50 is a bit glitchy when switching sources on the Anthem, meaning it loses synch and I have to go back and forth to reaquire. I am sure that this is an interaction issue between it and the Anthem but this was never a problem with the RS20.

The only difference would be the HDMI 1.4 inputs on the RS50 although I realize that the standard is backward compatible.

Anyone else experience anything similar?


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post #290 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 01:52 PM
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So Ralph, since you have the RS50 does this mean we can look forward to some 3D movie reviews from you?
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post #291 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 02:02 PM
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So Ralph, since you have the RS50 does this mean we can look forward to some 3D movie reviews from you?

Greetings,

Yes. I notified the studios so 3D content should hopefully start coming our way soon.


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post #292 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Geof - yes indeed this looks much better. Mark has been a big proponent of not using horizontal shift (or as little as possible) due to this and other related issues.

Yes I recall him stating that....which, after having pondered the bad MC for a time, is why I thought it best to eliminate it for the convergence test (I won't need H-Shift when the pj is properly installed on the mount).

Quote:


The blue especially in the third photo looks off quite a bit. Out of all the colors though, that's the one to have off if you're going to have some MC. It looks like its out about a 1/2 pixel or more. Any way to get an even closer picture - perhaps zoomed from where you are taking this?

I deliberately moved blue by one pixel in that 3rd photo...I thought it would give a frame of reference for what 1 pixel movement is for those photo's.

Quote:


Also is your pj mounted and inverted. Sometimes hanging it upside down changes the MC for better or worse (even tough of course it is designed for inverted mounting).

Because of the Chief mount delay the pj is NOT inverted. I expect Convergence to change some when I get the projector mounted.

Quote:


ANOTHER PATTERN: Geof - there is another pattern I would LOVE to see from your projector. I think its in the same section where the convergence pattern is. It is on the same AVS HD 709 disc. Its a circular pattern. Basically a spiral / spoke looking thing. You can't miss it once you see it you'll be like oh that's what he's talking about.

Can you post a photo of this, both from your seating position as well as from about half distance from your seated position?

This pattern checks convergence errors and resolution. Basically, the deeper into the center of the pattern you can clearly see, the more resolution and detail that is being revealed. Use the Detail Enhance function in conjunction with this pattern to determine the optimal setting (probably around 30). You'll see as Detail Enhance goes up from 0 you'll start to see deeper and deeper into the center. Then you'll reach a point where increasing the setting doesn't go any deeper - that's when you know you are at the right setting.

Also this pattern shows convergence and other such issues because the pattern is SUPPOSED to be purely grey. No color at all. However you will likely see some red and/or green within the circle. The less of this, the better.

Please post the photo of this so we can check it out. Thanks.

I know the one you're talking about and I will post photos later this evening. Thanks for the tip on how to dial in the detail setting!!

I watched the latest Star Trek flick and those star fields look great! On the closing credits there was some jerkiness but CMD mode 3 worked wonders. The text was clear and it scrolled very smoothly from bottom to top.

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post #293 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 02:29 PM
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I do have an HDMI issue between a DirecTv DVR (HR21-100) and the RS50. Every few seconds the picture breaks up...sometimes just a portion of it and sometimes it's just a brief flash. I have a 30' HDMI cable run between the two. Blue Jeans Cable told me this is a "widely reported" problem with DirecTv's "early model" DVR's...Has anyone here fought that battle? What's the fix?? (I may try to wrangle the latest model from them but I'm not holding my breath on that).

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post #294 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Because of the Chief mount delay the pj is NOT inverted. I expect Convergence to change some when I get the projector mounted.

Out of interest, why would you expect the convergence to be different when inverted? I had heard this before as well, but I would have thought top left and bottom right etc, would just swap over but still be the same misconvergence.
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post #295 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 04:27 PM
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Out of interest, why would you expect the convergence to be different when inverted? I had heard this before as well, but I would have thought top left and bottom right etc, would just swap over but still be the same misconvergence.

Mostly because of gravity (I think).
In the upright position the unit is sitting on it's feet (duh) but inverted it's hanging by it's feet. The chassis appears to be robust but a little mechanical deflection caused by the inversion could possibly change panel alignment, or not, I'll tell ya when I get it hung up....

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post #296 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Mostly because of gravity (I think).
In the upright position the unit is sitting on it's feet (duh) but inverted it's hanging by it's feet. The chassis appears to be robust but a little mechanical deflection caused by the inversion could possibly change panel alignment, or not, I'll tell ya when I get it hung up....

Interesting...it might explain my convergence changing with temperature as well. Mine is inverted.
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post #297 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 05:32 PM
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Interesting...it might explain my convergence changing with temperature as well. Mine is inverted.

Could be....but metal expands when it gets warmer and if if one panel runs a little warmer (or cooler) than the others there might be some convergence shift? I think we're talking minute movements since those pixels are damn small and the convergence shift is also damn small. It's amazing really....

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post #298 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 05:42 PM
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ANOTHER PATTERN: Geof - there is another pattern I would LOVE to see from your projector. I think its in the same section where the convergence pattern is. It is on the same AVS HD 709 disc. Its a circular pattern. Basically a spiral / spoke looking thing. You can't miss it once you see it you'll be like oh that's what he's talking about.

Here are the shots.....not the best but usable I think. Things are starting to "go wrong" here so it's time for me to slip into the movie watching mode.

I could not adjust Detail (or Sharpness) in User Mode 1 so I switched to Cinema mode. I stood right next to the screen and changed detail from 0 to whatever the upper limit is and saw no change....same with sharpness.....like I said stuff is fighting me tonight....regardless, I set both Sharpness and Detail to 20 for the photos. The first one is at 12' and the second at 6' (or so).
LL
LL

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post #299 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 06:08 PM
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While we technically have the headroom to compensate for bulb dimming over time, I noted, at least in my case since the projector is about 18 inches behind the seating area, that High Lamp mode is pretty loud...I'm not so sure how comfortable I'd be with those fans running behind my head...

I guess if your mount was a lot further back, it would help, but you can't be too far back as the light cone would force you to mount it higher and higher the further back you installed the JVC.

Mild dilemma...
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post #300 of 4220 Old 12-18-2010, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Here are the shots.....not the best but usable I think. Things are starting to "go wrong" here so it's time for me to slip into the movie watching mode.

I could not adjust Detail (or Sharpness) in User Mode 1 so I switched to Cinema mode. I stood right next to the screen and changed detail from 0 to whatever the upper limit is and saw no change....same with sharpness.....like I said stuff is fighting me tonight....regardless, I set both Sharpness and Detail to 20 for the photos. The first one is at 12' and the second at 6' (or so).


I also tried this after reading lovingdvds post and had the exact same experience as you...........no change from 0-50(?)..........I settled ~20 I think.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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