Official JVC RS-50 Owner's Thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 4220 Old 12-20-2010, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post
There's been some discussion recently about a warm-up period. I've attached two photo's showing the internal convergence grid screen on my RS50 during the first 20 minutes of operation.

The 1st image was taken right after turn on (and navigated thru the menu tree).

The 2nd one is about 20 minutes later.

The camera was not moved and no camera settings were harmed, err changed, in the making of this short, and possibly interesting, (or boring), photo essay on the subject.

Thanks Geof. You see a lot less movement than I do. But it is interesting that it is primarily red that moves, just as it does on mine. In my case about half a pixel horizontally with a tiny amount vertical. In yours, I would say about 0.25 vertically and I can't see any horizontal movement. It could be partly related to the fact mine is inverted. Also if it is going to move horizontally it is likely to be more movement because of course the chip is wider than it is high.

It actually shifts a bit more in high bulb mode as well.
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post #362 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Kevin - the photos this zoomed in make it a bit difficult to see the resolution. Can you try taking these from about 1/2 your viewing distance? Also are you saying the resolution has improved after warm up?
RS50


RS10 sharpness 0 Detail Enhancement 20 15 mins warmup just to stabalise components.
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post #363 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 03:11 AM
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Hi everyone!

As I don't think a calibration thread was started yet, I was wondering if someone could confirm the following.

I have recently learnt that the gamma controls had been improved in the rs25/rs35 compared to the rs20, i.e. that you could move one gamma point without affecting the neighboring ones. So for example, if you move 30IRE, it shouldn't affect the controls at 20IRE or 40IRE.

Could an rs50 owner confirm this? It would be nice to know that this improvement is still there on the new CMS (which we know has other issues).

Many thanks!
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post #364 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 03:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Hi everyone!

As I don't think a calibration thread was started yet, I was wondering if someone could confirm the following.

I have recently learnt that the gamma controls had been improved in the rs25/rs35 compared to the rs20, i.e. that you could move one gamma point without affecting the neighboring ones. So for example, if you move 30IRE, it shouldn't affect the controls at 20IRE or 40IRE.

Could an rs50 owner confirm this? It would be nice to know that this improvement is still there on the new CMS (which we know has other issues).

Many thanks!
+1

Would be interesting to know the situation on the new models while we still haven't received yet ....

P.S. Manni, you can issue all the hunchbacks you may want in the RS25/RS35 Gamma curve ...
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post #365 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

The first two convergence images are pretty representative of how convergence looks across the entire screen. I'll try to take a shot of the center when I fire up the pj later today.

Thats great news about the improved performance with that pattern. I'd like to see what it looks like on an RS25 or 35. I'll take a look at it with the version 1.3 disc to make sure it looks the same (if it's not I'll post an image).

TOE,
Thanks for the confirmation. I like consistency!!

Alas,
Last night I was plagued with breakups for both HDMI sources...a DirecTv DVR and an Oppo 93 BD Player. I didn't have any issues with the Oppo before the firmware update...I will try it's other HDMI output to see how that works. Both runs use 30' HDMI Cables from BlueJeansCable (24AWG Tartan series, per their recommendation). I have ordered a 22AWG Monoprice cable to see how that works. I sort of expected issues with the DirecTv DVR since BJC indicated this is a known issue. I did not expect any issues with the Oppo tho. In addition to trying the other Oppo HDMI output I will move the player and try a 6' cable to see how that works.

monoprice does not make a high speed cable that is 30feet. They only go to 25' in high speed.
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post #366 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Thanks Geof. You see a lot less movement than I do. But it is interesting that it is primarily red that moves, just as it does on mine. In my case about half a pixel horizontally with a tiny amount vertical. In yours, I would say about 0.25 vertically and I can't see any horizontal movement. It could be partly related to the fact mine is inverted. Also if it is going to move horizontally it is likely to be more movement because of course the chip is wider than it is high.

It actually shifts a bit more in high bulb mode as well.

Good point about high bulb mode. More heat could mean more drift.


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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Geof - these are your clearest convergence photos yet (photo quality/focus-wise). Can you take a few just like these exact with the single pixel convergence grid from the AVS HD 709 disc?

As a side, I can't readily tell much if any of a difference between these two photos. What do you see?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I took a close look in Photoshop. Blue definitely moved closer to red and green after warm-up, but the difference was small. How many pixels wide are these lines? I did some sampling with the color picker, but there isn't enough pixel resolution in the photos to come to any conclusions about color changes. Just by eye, I wasn't picking up on much of anything.

I saw no real change with the vertical lines. Red drifted down (towards better convergence) as the unit warmed. I doubt any of this is visible when watching 2D content. I won't even hazard a guess how MC affects ghosting..

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post #367 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandarax View Post

monoprice does not make a high speed cable that is 30feet. They only go to 25' in high speed.

Yes, you're right. I had originally asked about their 25' Belden Series 1 in conjunction with a 5' Belden Series 2 to get to 30'. BJC told me: "I'd actually recommend the Tartan 24AWG in the 30 foot length. We sell hundreds of these, and they perform as they are meant to."

Regardless, since the breakups occur with an Oppo 83 using a 6' cable I think the problem is not so much with the longer cables as it is with the projector (sadly).

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post #368 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin 3000 View Post

RS50


RS10 sharpness 0 Detail Enhancement 20 15 mins warmup just to stabalise components.

Those shots look pretty similar.

The lines on the RS10 seem to be smoother. The lines on the RS50 seem a little blockier.

Is this how it looks in person?

I think many people want to see the blockier looking RS50. The edge pixels are more defined and this may make it seem sharper overall.

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post #369 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 05:53 AM
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Kevin,
What screen are you using? I wonder if the screen makes any difference?? I'm thinking screen texture might play a role here....??

Geof
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post #370 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mntwister View Post

I have to agree somewhat with UMR about the THX mode not being all that great, but I did some changes to the main components (brightness, contrast, ect) and got it a bit better. Read my manual last night and the CMS and calibration stuff was like reading a different language, I am completely lost. I checked and there are no qualified people to calibrate this thing, I live in a small town in northern Minnesota right now until I move to Minneapolis in the spring, so the only thing I can think of is getting some instructions from someone here with their setting and trying it out. I know everyone's screen is different and projector, but I have no other options.

By the time you move you should have a couple hundred hours on the projector. Calibrators using the commercial spectracal licence will be calibrating the RS50 and the RS60 on autopilot. Meaning they cant screw it up. All the iterations will be done on auto pilot to optimize the projector. Was told that this should be completed by March 2011. Since this is a widely used software and growing in popularity I don't think you should have too much difficulty finding a calibrator in your area. Go with the ones that have better idiot proof equipment and reputation. Personally I can't go faster than a computer when making iterations so this is good news.
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post #371 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Kevin,
What screen are you using? I wonder if the screen makes any difference?? I'm thinking screen texture might play a role here....??

Black Diamond 1.4 110" Diagional. What size is your sereen if larger that may account for the blockier looking pixels? In real life their is more detail.

Texture role, i will leave that to the experts?

Natvie Image..
http://www.cig.canon-europe.com/ph/O...XLxDwpFpna.jpg
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post #372 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 07:02 AM
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I have a 93" diagonal Carada CCW.
And, yes, with your image being enlarged more than mine, I'd expect some differences!!

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post #373 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 07:05 AM
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At last ! The first X7 have arrived in France, i just got mine, i'm running home !
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post #374 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 07:12 AM
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Congrats...I am jealous
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post #375 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Those shots look pretty similar.

The lines on the RS10 seem to be smoother. The lines on the RS50 seem a little blockier.

Is this how it looks in person?

I think many people want to see the blockier looking RS50. The edge pixels are more defined and this may make it seem sharper overall.

Lawguy - I am curious why you feel the shots look pretty similar. To me it seems there is a huge improvement in resolution and detail with the RS50 shot.

For instance, look at the inner area of the pattern (not the blank circle in the middle, but the area that surrounds that. In the RS50 shot you can clearly see all sorts of diamond-like patterns in that area - some dark and some light. In the RS10 you can make out some (but not all) of these patterns (particularly the darker ones are not showing up in the RS10 shot). This to me suggests the resolution is much higher...
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post #376 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 07:39 AM
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Kevin - thanks for the RS50 vs RS10 shots on this pattern. Is there a way you can take this same shot, except from a lot further back? I'd like to get a better idea of what these patterns look like from a distance, such as at or near your normal viewing distance (the current photos are too zoomed to get a feel for this but are good for other things such as pixel structure). Thanks!
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post #377 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Lawguy - I am curious why you feel the shots look pretty similar. To me it seems there is a huge improvement in resolution and detail with the RS50 shot.

For instance, look at the inner area of the pattern (not the blank circle in the middle, but the area that surrounds that. In the RS50 shot you can clearly see all sorts of diamond-like patterns in that area - some dark and some light. In the RS10 you can make out some (but not all) of these patterns (particularly the darker ones are not showing up in the RS10 shot). This to me suggests the resolution is much higher...

I am not sure if I am focusing on what you are asking me to focus on but here are my thoughts:

Those diamond like patterns, to me, are optical illusions, and not something intended by the pattern. They seem more obvious on the RS50 shot because the square edges of the pixels are more apparent. If you follow the square edges of the pixels, you can see how they form these patterns. To me this is almost like moire and not something that you would want to see.

The square edges of the pixels on the RS10 don't look very square. As a result, the lines appear to be straighter and less blocky and the diamond pattern illusions are not as pronounced. In other words, I don't think that the RS50 is showing any more detail. Instead, it is creating some artifacts.

I could be wrong.

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post #378 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandarax View Post

By the time you move you should have a couple hundred hours on the projector. Calibrators using the commercial spectracal licence will be calibrating the RS50 and the RS60 on autopilot. Meaning they cant screw it up. All the iterations will be done on auto pilot to optimize the projector. Was told that this should be completed by March 2011. Since this is a widely used software and growing in popularity I don't think you should have too much difficulty finding a calibrator in your area. Go with the ones that have better idiot proof equipment and reputation. Personally I can't go faster than a computer when making iterations so this is good news.

I suspect idiot proof automatic calibration is very unlikely.

W. Jeff Meier


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post #379 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I am not sure if I am focusing on what you are asking me to focus on but here are my thoughts:

Those diamond like patterns, to me, are optical illusions, and not something intended by the pattern. They seem more obvious on the RS50 shot because the square edges of the pixels are more apparent. If you follow the square edges of the pixels, you can see how they form these patterns. To me this is almost like moire and not something that you would want to see.

The square edges of the pixels on the RS10 don't look very square. As a result, the lines appear to be straighter and less blocky and the diamond pattern illusions are not as pronounced. In other words, I don't think that the RS50 is showing any more detail. Instead, it is creating some artifacts.

I could be wrong.

Yes, it sounds like we are both focusing on the same part of the pattern.

I agree that the diamond-like figures I am referring to are indeed an optical illusion and similar to a moire type of effect. But alas, this is what leads me to conclude that the RS50 is resolving far more detail.

My theory is that there is extra resolution and detail being revealed in the RS50, and THAT is what is causing the diamond-like and moire effect. Like the extra resolution is creating more spacing and clarity between the fine lines, which results in the moire effect. And in the RS10's case, the resolution is not as fine, and as a result there is less definition in the very tight parts of the pattern (down near the center) so the moire effect is much less pronounced.

I could be wrong with this theory. But if there is any truth to the concept that a more sharply and defined image in a tight area (where all these lines meet near the center) can lead to moire, then I think that backs up the idea that the RS50 in these pics has significantly better resolution and detail than the RS10.

What do you think?
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post #380 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 11:20 AM
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Rather than reduce the resolution at which the image is captured, why not increase *your* viewing distance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Kevin - thanks for the RS50 vs RS10 shots on this pattern. Is there a way you can take this same shot, except from a lot further back? I'd like to get a better idea of what these patterns look like from a distance, such as at or near your normal viewing distance (the current photos are too zoomed to get a feel for this but are good for other things such as pixel structure). Thanks!


Noah
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post #381 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 11:39 AM
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Just to comment that if I ramp up the detail enhance and/or sharpness on my HD350 with that pattern I can get lots of those diamond patterns coming further and further out from the centre. I took this as a sign that the setting was too high and turned it down. FWIW have you checked the same pattern on a 1080p TV as it will look 'sharper' but have less diamond patterning if the TV's sharpness is set correctly.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #382 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Rather than reduce the resolution at which the image is captured, why not increase *your* viewing distance?

Yes this is what I was asking for because resizing the image introduces issues of its own. If I had my pick I'd like to see the image sized so that the entire image fit in the picture and then some additional space as well - maybe the view from about 3/4 his normal viewing distance would probably do it.
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post #383 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Just to comment that if I ramp up the detail enhance and/or sharpness on my HD350 with that pattern I can get lots of those diamond patterns coming further and further out from the centre. I took this as a sign that the setting was too high and turned it down. FWIW have you checked the same pattern on a 1080p TV as it will look 'sharper' but have less diamond patterning if the TV's sharpness is set correctly.

I don't know Kelvin - I've always taken it a bit more of the opposite - that the more the moire pattern was coming out, the higher the resolution (for the reasoning mentioned in my post to Lawguy above).
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post #384 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Yes, it sounds like we are both focusing on the same part of the pattern.

I agree that the diamond-like figures I am referring to are indeed an optical illusion and similar to a moire type of effect. But alas, this is what leads me to conclude that the RS50 is resolving far more detail.

My theory is that there is extra resolution and detail being revealed in the RS50, and THAT is what is causing the diamond-like and moire effect. Like the extra resolution is creating more spacing and clarity between the fine lines, which results in the moire effect. And in the RS10's case, the resolution is not as fine, and as a result there is less definition in the very tight parts of the pattern (down near the center) so the moire effect is much less pronounced.

I could be wrong with this theory. But if there is any truth to the concept that a more sharply and defined image in a tight area (where all these lines meet near the center) can lead to moire, then I think that backs up the idea that the RS50 in these pics has significantly better resolution and detail than the RS10.

What do you think?

I think that you are technically right - The RS50 is showing more. Is it more of what you want to see? I think the answer is that the answer will change depending on what the projector is displaying. To me, the RS10 does a subjectively better job with that pattern because the lines look smoother. They look more jagged on the RS50. In reality, this is a 1080p pattern and pixels are supposed to be square. So, the RS50 more accurately shows what that pattern is supposed to look like, even if it doesn't look as good as the RS10.

Another pattern (like line pairs) will put the RS10 in a less favorable light.

So maybe the RS10 looks more analog and the RS50 looks more digital.

Affable Nitwit
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post #385 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 12:25 PM
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Sorry for what may be another off topic post, though possibly relevant to all the JVC range from my HD350 upwards: I noticed on the end credits of the Casino Royale BluRay that the white text seemed to be 'jittering' for want of a better term. I found that by turning up the detail (and/or edge) enhancements I could make this more pronounced. Equally lowering the setting helped smooth these 'jitters'. It seemed to me that this must also effect motion within the film itself, so I tend to run with these controls lowered (edge on or near 0 and detail at 15 or less).

Of course the HD350 doesn't have any frame creation controls or black frame feature, so maybe less important on the newer models to limit the setting for motion reasons alone, but I hope it's still a useful observation.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #386 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Yes this is what I was asking for because resizing the image introduces issues of its own. If I had my pick I'd like to see the image sized so that the entire image fit in the picture and then some additional space as well - maybe the view from about 3/4 his normal viewing distance would probably do it.


110" Sharpness 0 DEnhance 20 7ft from screen camera res lowest Larger pixels like Geofs
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post #387 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by umr View Post

I suspect idiot proof automatic calibration is very unlikely.

I disagree. If the optimization formulas are written properly it should surpass what a human can do in the same amount of time.
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post #388 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 04:24 PM
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Continue to call me nuts, but I watched a good hour of Despicable Me today after the 50 was on for about an hour, and the presentation of ghosting was appreciably less. Mostly it's where it always was, but much fainter , and in other instances I don't notice it at all where I did before.

This is an odd phenomenon that I've noticed a few times already. I'd love to know if it's lamp/panel related, or some initial sync issue with then glasses.

Then good thing of course is generally the rs is excellent from a cold start, other than the warm-up color shft, and what minimal ghosting there is tends to diminish after warm up...but what could be creating this experience...?


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post #389 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 04:31 PM
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We've (myself and Jonstatt) seen where the convergence drifts a bit during warmup so that seems like possible culprit.

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post #390 of 4220 Old 12-21-2010, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Continue to call me nuts, but I watched a good hour of Despicable Me today after the 50 was on for about an hour, and the presentation of ghosting was appreciably less. Mostly it's where it always was, but much fainter , and in other instances I don't notice it at all where I did before.

This is an odd phenomenon that I've noticed a few times already. I'd love to know if it's lamp/panel related, or some initial sync issue with then glasses.

Then good thing of course is generally the rs is excellent from a cold start, other than the warm-up color shft, and what minimal ghosting there is tends to diminish after warm up...but what could be creating this experience...?

I believe its the panels. I am thinking its their capability to switch fast enough is marginal to start with, and seems worse from cold. Hence the ghosting is reduced but not gone after being on a while. This seems to be common across all LCD 3D technology.
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