Official JVC RS-50 Owner's Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 4220 Old 01-02-2011, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by AJSJones View Post

I suspect the "3D" perception is determined mainly by the images themselves. One key issue in the stereoscopic projection is the distance at which the eye focuses and where the brain perceives the object to be. If those are different, there are problems. One would like the eye to focus on the plane of screen, since that's where the optical image is, but the brain may think the object is deeper into (or further out from) that plane so the brain and eyes are in conflict. By adjusting the distance between the two images on the screen, one can adjust for this and minimize this conflict/fatigue. Therefore the screen size and viewing distance play a big role. Just guessin' here (sorry, conjecture ) (I think this is called convergence accommodation failure or something - I look forward to experts setting us straight!)


You are on the right lines here. I explained this in the RS40 thread sometime back. Obviously no objects are really in front or behind the screens. It is an illusion. So your eyes in reality have only one distance to focus on, the screen. As you rightly pointed out, your brain sees an object in front or behind even though both eyes are firmly focussed on the screen. The brain can get into conflict and some find when objects come out of the screen they lose focus. This is because they are actually focussing where they normally would for an object infront of their nose. With this technology, others learn they have no 3D vision (more people than you think) where they cannot see any 3D at all as both eyes are not processed by the brain properly.

The adjustment for screensize on some blu-ray players, should be shifting the images left or right from each other, for greater or lesser convergence. All this does is reset the point at which something is level with the screen. By changing convergence in one direction it will push more infront of the screen, and adjusting the other way, push objects deeper into the screen. I am not sure of its relevance for 3D blu-ray as opposed to games because it WILL have undesirable side effects. If the images are just shifted with no rescaling, you will be left with black borders on either side. If the images are subsequently scaled to re-fill the screen, then you will have scaling artifacts. This is why Panasonic chose not to provide this parameter. I believe Sony's will not change the image if left at 100 inches screensize but I am not completely sure on this...I assume that means 100" diagonal.

There is a cheat in the Sony VW90 to reduce ghosting. Ghosting is most obvious when you have bright backgrounds and solid dark objects that projector infront or behind the screen level. The Sony also allows you to adjust convergence by moving the two images such that those offending components do not projector so far from screen level. I don't think people have wised up yet to that being a big con to hide ghosting yet by defeating some of the 3D effect!
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post #632 of 4220 Old 01-02-2011, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Yes, just about all of my ancestors came from those islands a very long time ago (when we were still a colony). By the way, I'm just curious how does the UK retail price on the JVC projectors, in Pounds, track with the prices in the Euro countries at the current exchange rate? I know we usually have a significant difference between US and European prices, some of which is the VAT included in the price on your side of the pond.

UK pricing is retail 3500 UK pounds for X3, 6600 UK pounds for X7. This is inclusive of 17.5 VAT and includes the emitter and 2 pairs of glasses.

I am not sure what will happen in a few days time when VAT goes up to 20%. I suspect JVC will do what a lot of companies will do which is to increase the margin to dealers so that the cost of the VAT rise can be absorbed by the dealers.

Obviously the prices I mentioned are full retail and not street pricing which will be lower. Also JVC are only giving 2 glasses to start with dropping to 1 pair soon.
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post #633 of 4220 Old 01-02-2011, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by GaryB_UK View Post

We also have the pleasure of 17.5% VAT. This increases to 20% from 4th Jan.

Yikes, that's a pretty stiff increase....

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post #634 of 4220 Old 01-02-2011, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

My bucket list includes never having to watch Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs. When are you guys going to start watching content in 3D instead of just 3D? It seems to me the Medium of 3D has become the message instead of the medium of 3D being a way to enhance the message. BTW Anybody here see the Black Swan yet? I saw it at the local Regal early New Year's eve. Lots of flicker. Never noticed flicker too much before but now I see it at the commercial movie houses all the time but almost never at home.

We'll be able to start watching some meaningful 3D content other than 3DBD when JVC & DirecTV allow us to do so!

Right now it's our only option and that's very frustrating for me, especially when Gary commented that no additional formats would be accommodated.


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post #635 of 4220 Old 01-02-2011, 04:07 PM
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There will be a solution...it's just a matter of cost. It wouldn't surprise me if 3D format converters are just round the corner. Hopefully this'll be the week for news from any [all!] of the participants.

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post #636 of 4220 Old 01-02-2011, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

We'll be able to start watching some meaningful 3D content other than 3DBD when JVC & DirecTV allow us to do so!

Right now it's our only option and that's very frustrating for me, especially when Gary commented that no additional formats would be accommodated.


Maybe I missed a post? I thought Gary said Japan was being consulted although it may not be possible. Is there now a definitive answer in one of the threads?
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post #637 of 4220 Old 01-02-2011, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by dogone View Post


Not for me... For 3D, I like to get "alot" closer...

I understand it is more immersive, but according to JVC 3X is the minimum for quality
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post #638 of 4220 Old 01-02-2011, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RevelMN View Post

I understand it is more immersive, but according to JVC 3X is the minimum for quality

Closer for depth immersion but pop-out will be compromised. Objects coming out from the screen will be better if there is more physical room space for them to occupy. if you sit 3 feet away from your screen an object can only occupy the space between 0 and 3 feet. Sit 10 feet away, and the space an object can occupy will increase accordingly. Initially for isolated scenes sitting closer will feel more "wow" because everything will be on the tip of your nose, but actually you lose all of the range of which objects can occupy your living space. For example 2 fishes will appear to be at the same level when sitting too close, but appear one infront of the other further back.

So what is the best solution?

A screen so massive that it encompasses your vision AND you are sitting at least 10 or more feet away.

EDIT: Sitting too close will also reveal more technology limitation issues such as making convergence errors more visible etc.
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post #639 of 4220 Old 01-02-2011, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Closer for depth immersion but pop-out will be compromised. Objects coming out from the screen will be better if there is more physical room space for them to occupy. if you sit 3 feet away from your screen an object can only occupy the space between 0 and 3 feet. Sit 10 feet away, and the space an object can occupy will increase accordingly. Initially for isolated scenes sitting closer will feel more "wow" because everything will be on the tip of your nose, but actually you lose all of the range of which objects can occupy your living space. For example 2 fishes will appear to be at the same level when sitting too close, but appear one infront of the other further back.

So what is the best solution?

A screen so massive that it encompasses your vision AND you are sitting at least 10 or more feet away.

EDIT: Sitting too close will also reveal more technology limitation issues such as making convergence errors more visible etc.

I understand what you're saying, Jon, but isn't distance from the screen relative to screen size? In other words, when you're sitting within 10 feet of a massive Imax screen, won't objects that protrude forward from the screen surface be just as relatively "compromised" as they would if you sat 3 feet from a much smaller screen? Yet I have experienced the most amazing 3D immersion with such screens.

All I know is that I enjoy being very close to the screen for 3D. That may change as I experiment with 3D in the future, but right now I like 3D best the more I can lose the borders of the frame in my peripheral vision.

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post #640 of 4220 Old 01-02-2011, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I understand what you're saying, Jon, but isn't distance from the screen relative to screen size? In other words, when you're sitting within 10 feet of a massive Imax screen, won't objects that protrude forward from the screen surface be just as relatively "compromised" as they would if you sat 3 feet from a much smaller screen? Yet I have experienced the most amazing 3D immersion with such screens.

All I know is that I enjoy being very close to the screen for 3D. That may change as I experiment with 3D in the future, but right now I like 3D best the more I can lose the borders of the frame in my peripheral vision.


To a certain extent your point is valid too. If you sit within 10 feet of a massive IMAX screen the pop-out will still work reasonably well but the object will appear disproportionately large within your "real world" space. Once things pop-out of the screen your brain will associate their size more with "real world" object sizes. You will miss half the image as well as you won't have enough field of view even for 50% of the screen so I always try and avoid the very front rows. With pop-out it is more about occupying the actual room space than it is the image size on screen. The further back you can go while still encompassing your field of vision will be optimum.

Don't get me wrong. Everyone has their personal preference. But in the same way you want the maximum dynamic range for audio speakers and amplifiers etc, what I am describing will give you the maximum 3D distance range and immersion.

My screen is unfortunately nowhere near big enough to achieve full immersion and pop-out depth at the same time.
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post #641 of 4220 Old 01-02-2011, 06:10 PM
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I am planning to install an RS-50 at vertical center of screen to accomodate a Dalite high power and optimize its gain at the seating position as much as possible.


There is plenty of room for a bookshelf along the back wall.

Assuming that the shelf is stout and attached to the back wall with brackets, does anyone think that the subwoofer LFE will potentially cause more vibration issues with the projector than if it were ceiling mounted?

Know of any shelves with enough depth? I had planned to attach a bottom plate that extends beyond the front of the shelf but I would like to start with at least 15" of shelf depth.

TIA

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post #642 of 4220 Old 01-02-2011, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Maybe I missed a post? I thought Gary said Japan was being consulted although it may not be possible. Is there now a definitive answer in one of the threads?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post19726811

Not definitive just heavily alluded to (not doing anything more than what it does today).

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post #643 of 4220 Old 01-03-2011, 06:32 AM
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Curious about this setting. I downloaded several MKV 3D trailers which are in "side by side" 3D format but I needed to set 3D mode on the projector from auto to side by side side manually. I would assume the projector should detect the 3D format and switch to the appropriate mode. Unless the files didn't have the correct detection flag? Thoughts from anyone on this?

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post #644 of 4220 Old 01-03-2011, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Curious about this setting. I downloaded several MKV 3D trailers which are in "side by side" 3D format but I needed to set 3D mode on the projector from auto to side by side side manually. I would assume the projector should detect the 3D format and switch to the appropriate mode. Unless the files didn't have the correct detection flag? Thoughts from anyone on this?

Auto detect is just for 3D Blu-ray. Side by side and Top/Bottom 3D from satellite or cable look like regular 2D content to the projector.

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post #645 of 4220 Old 01-03-2011, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Auto detect is just for 3D Blu-ray. Side by side and Top/Bottom 3D from satellite or cable look like regular 2D content to the projector.

Thanks for the Joseph. Is there a discrete IR or serial code for each mode rather than navigating several steps to select a mode?

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post #646 of 4220 Old 01-03-2011, 06:50 AM
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Any owner has deeped in Dual Iris and checked how those works ??
Gary stated that they're not indipendent, plus I suspect that have different number of steps ( 16 the iris we know and maybe 4 or so the new one )
Anyone could report about this ??
Thanks

Plus .. anyone has deeped in Xenon modes profiles ???
Have you measured ?? Starting from a perfect REC709 CIE and engaging Xenon modes what's happened when remeasured ?? How wide is the Gamut with those filters ??
Anyone could post a comparison between a calibrated REC 709 Gamut and a Xenon mode profile calbrated back to REC709 ??? Are they the same or the engaged mechanical filter makes anyway a difference ???

Sorry .. still haven't my machine so couldn't do those tests ....
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post #647 of 4220 Old 01-03-2011, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highlander_AVS View Post

Any owner has deeped in Dual Iris and checked how those works ??
Gary stated that they're not indipendent, plus I suspect that have different number of steps ( 16 the iris we know and maybe 4 or so the new one )
Anyone could report about this ??
Thanks

From what I can see the iris adjustments alternate. First step to -1, front iris, second step to -2, rear iris, third step -3, front iris again etc etc.

There are still only 16 steps to it appears 8 steps on each iris.
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post #648 of 4220 Old 01-03-2011, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

From what I can see the iris adjustments alternate. First step to -1, front iris, second step to -2, rear iris, third step -3, front iris again etc etc.

There are still only 16 steps to it appears 8 steps on each iris.

Thanks ... anyway they all go the same direction ....
I mean, it's impossible to full open the front one and full close the back one ... that's the way, imho, to get the max CR with the better ANSI CR ...
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post #649 of 4220 Old 01-03-2011, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Highlander_AVS View Post
Thanks ... anyway they all go the same direction ....
I mean, it's impossible to full open the front one and full close the back one ... that's the way, imho, to get the max CR with the better ANSI CR ...
Yes..thats what I think too. That is why I am quite surprised JVC did it like this. I would have thought 0 to -8 should be back iris only, and then only if you still need more dimming, to adjust front one.
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post #650 of 4220 Old 01-03-2011, 10:35 AM
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I think that would not make sense. Rear iris is basically a mask on the light source. If you reduce the rear iris to a pin hole but have the front lens fully open you would just beam a narrow light cone thru the center of a fully open lens and just lit the center of the picture.
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post #651 of 4220 Old 01-03-2011, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemat View Post
I think that would not make sense. Rear iris is basically a mask on the light source. If you reduce the rear iris to a pin hole but have the front lens fully open you would just beam a narrow light cone thru the center of a fully open lens and just lit the center of the picture.
Yes, I think there is something like this at work. Weird & inexplicable things happen all the time but I can't imagine JVC going to the trouble of adding a 2nd iris but then not utilizing it to best advantage. There are tradeoffs to most everything and I'm sure they walked that tightrope when they came up with the aperture algorithm.

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post #652 of 4220 Old 01-03-2011, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post
Thanks for the Joseph. Is there a discrete IR or serial code for each mode rather than navigating several steps to select a mode?
No such discrete codes. I've been bugging Gary from JVC/UK about this. He said he'll ask engineering to consider adding it. I asked for discrete codes for 3D OFF, 3D Side by Side, and 3D Top and Bottom.

If you think its a pain now, wait until you need to swap between two different live 3D programs. For instance the other night Comcast had the hockey game on in SbS and ESPN3D has the football game in TnB.

My 3D Samsung plasma doesn't have discrete codes for this either, so it was a real hassle to switch back and forth between the channels and then drill into the TV's menus x levels deep to switch back and forth between TnB and SbS...
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post #653 of 4220 Old 01-03-2011, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
No such discrete codes. I've been bugging Gary from JVC/UK about this. He said he'll ask engineering to consider adding it. I asked for discrete codes for 3D OFF, 3D Side by Side, and 3D Top and Bottom.

If you think its a pain now, wait until you need to swap between two different live 3D programs. For instance the other night Comcast had the hockey game on in SbS and ESPN3D has the football game in TnB.

My 3D Samsung plasma doesn't have discrete codes for this either, so it was a real hassle to switch back and forth between the channels and then drill into the TV's menus x levels deep to switch back and forth between TnB and SbS...
If memory serves, I believe there are discrete 232 & LAN commands for this but no IR as you say.

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post #654 of 4220 Old 01-04-2011, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

The JVC Remote Control document defines a bunch of IR commands that are not on the JVC remote -- unfortunately you cannot learn them. You have to make them. No sweat though, it's easy.

The document lists ASCII codes for a lot of useful [direct] commands and those ASCII codes need to be converted to Hex. The Remote Control document describes this process (see page 19). You can use MakeHex (a Windows program) or, better yet, here is a second JVC document containing all of the hex codes. Once you have the Hex codes you can use the URC software to convert it into a command the URC remotes understand (actually I'm not sure about the MX850 but the MX900 software has a "Universal Browser" tool that allows you to work with hex codes directly).

I've implemented a lot of the IR commands defined in the Remote Control Document and they work as advertised.

I just reviewed this doc and surprised to find these. Are they only avail this way or am I missing an ISF & THX option in the main menu??

ISF - Day (X7/X9/RS50/60)
ISF - Night (X7/X9/RS50/60)
ISF - Off
ISF - On

THX - Off (X7/X9/RS50/60)
THX - On (X7/X9/RS50/60)
THX - Bright (X7/X9/RS50/60)
THX - Dark (X7/X9/RS50/60)

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post #655 of 4220 Old 01-04-2011, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

I just reviewed this doc and surprised to find these. Are they only avail this way or am I missing an ISF & THX option in the main menu??

ISF - Day (X7/X9/RS50/60)
ISF - Night (X7/X9/RS50/60)
ISF - Off
ISF - On

THX - Off (X7/X9/RS50/60)
THX - On (X7/X9/RS50/60)
THX - Bright (X7/X9/RS50/60)
THX - Dark (X7/X9/RS50/60)

They only get enabled when an ISF or THX calibration interface is connected (via RS232 I believe) to the unit. It then unlocks these modes.
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post #656 of 4220 Old 01-04-2011, 09:36 AM
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Good morning to all,

I'm new in this forum and I write from Italy...I think I have a problem with my new RS50. At 100 IRE my Y value is 24 (in normal lamp mode). My screen is 123" gain 1.2 and I'm in a dedicated bat cave. In 3D mode the Y value is 32.

I really think is too low, where is all the light? Can you confirm that the Rs50 should be a lot more brighter?
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post #657 of 4220 Old 01-04-2011, 09:52 AM
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Ric. Get FIOS and end your 3D hassles. How? They don`t offer any programming in 3D now. They lied last Spring saying they would have it by Xmass and now they are saying maybe sometime this year. Ditto no news on a DVR with a decent recording capacity. Sounds like a company strapped for cash.

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post #658 of 4220 Old 01-04-2011, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Ric. Get FIOS and end your 3D hassles. How? They don`t offer any programming in 3D now. They lied last Spring saying they would have it by Xmass and now they are saying maybe sometime this year. Ditto no news on a DVR with a decent recording capacity. Sounds like a company strapped for cash.

I have FIOS Internet and Phone. Works fantastic. Last time I checked into FIOS TV they wanted $19 something/mo for the DVR (times two for 2 DVR's). Their programming was similar in pricing but they didn't offer anywhere near the number of HD channels on DirecTv. All that for more money than I'm paying DirecTv. It was an easy deal to pass up. Perhaps that's changed now but Verizon is not a company you want to call when you have problems. My experience their their CS was horrendous.

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post #659 of 4220 Old 01-04-2011, 10:21 AM
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The HD picture quality is better on FIOS though. But to me it is clearly a company strapped for cash and not expanding its coverage or staying up with future.

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post #660 of 4220 Old 01-04-2011, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer J Simpson View Post

Good morning to all,

I'm new in this forum and I write from Italy...I think I have a problem with my new RS50. At 100 IRE my Y value is 24 (in normal lamp mode). My screen is 123" gain 1.2 and I'm in a dedicated bat cave. In 3D mode the Y value is 32.

I really think is too low, where is all the light? Can you confirm that the Rs50 should be a lot more brighter?

Could you give a lumens reading rather than quoting Y (luminance) as I am not sure if you were quoting horizontal or diagonal screenwidth. So just so we can make sure we are talking about the same thing, could you convert it for us?

To get maximum lumens, go to user preset 1, change colour temperature to 8500k, high bulb, aperture fully open, then switch the colour profile to OFF (this is NOT the CMS adjustment, it is the colour profile which is first option in the menu). Then put up a 100 IRE field, and tell us how many lumens you have? This should be somewhere near 1300 if you are at shortest throw.

I can tell you after 95 hours, I was getting 1100 (about 5% away from shortest throw), a bit over 650 in THX, a bit under 590 at D65, 430 in 3D when actually receiving a 3D signal.
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