Official JVC RS-50 Owner's Thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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Old 01-07-2011, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by cdeutsch View Post

Hi Thrang,

What I can tell you is that the feedback on the forum is very appreciated, and always passed along to our engineers.

One thing I do not understand is your comment on CMD and FI being enabled simultaneously. CMD (Clear Motion Drive) is the name of our high speed technology and FI (Frame Interpolation) is a part of that--if you choose the frame interpolation mode (3 or 4). Many people prefer our method. Some people prefer other methods. I would not look for any updates/changes to our method right now.

Chris


Chris,

Can you please give us some sort of feel for the whole 3D DTV compatibility issue as to the ability and timeframes for correction? I understand you all are at CES this week but at the same time you also have more local access to address this than at any other time and I feel this is a major issue for a lot of us here, especially when JVC advertises on the current USA website that "All current 3D formats" are to be supported. Help us buddy!! Thanks!

Kevin

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Old 01-07-2011, 08:52 AM
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I've provided several updates to the 3D screen thread . This thread is now a sticky on the 3D Displays forum. I have added a section at the bottom of Post #1 on projection calculators where links are provided to FLBoy's screen calculator and Projector Central's calculater (both intended for 2D projection systems). I have also attached a simple 3D projection calculator (Excel spreadsheet that I created) that includes provisions to account for the addiitional light loss for 3D projection systems.

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Old 01-07-2011, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

I've provided several updates to the 3D screen thread . This thread is now a sticky on the 3D Displays forum. I have added a section at the bottom of Post #1 on projection calculators where links are provided to FLBoy's screen calculator and Projector Central's calculater (both intended for 2D projection systems). I have also attached a simple 3D projection calculator (Excel spreadsheet that I created) that includes provisions to account for the addiitional light loss for 3D projection systems.

So does this mean the if someone is using a screen that has a '0' rating for polariztion retention, they would be better off using shutter glasses that have no/mimimal polarizing filtration(if such a thing exists?) to ensure maximum perceived brightness?

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Old 01-07-2011, 05:06 PM
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So does this mean the if someone is using a screen that has a '0' rating for polariztion retention, they would be better off using shutter glasses that have no/mimimal polarizing filtration(if such a thing exists?) to ensure maximum perceived brightness?
No - shutter glasses need a polarizing element in order to work. What it means if you are using a screen with a zero (0) rating for retaining polarization is that the orientation of the polarizing element in the glasses makes no difference. Thus you could use universal glasses such as the Xpand X103 and have similar brightness as using the projectors manufacturer's own glasses even if the universal shutter glasses have a different orientation from the 3D projector. If you do use a screen that maintains a lot of the polarizaton from an LCoS projector, such as the JVCs, then you need to use glasses that have polarization that matches that of the projector and you will get an additional boost in brightness due to the polarization of the light coming off of the screen, but with the wrong orientation on the glasses you would get a significant reduction in brightness.

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Old 01-07-2011, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
No - shutter glasses need a polarizing element in order to work. What it means if you are using a screen with a zero (0) rating for retaining polarization is that the orientation of the polarizing element in the glasses makes no difference. Thus you could use universal glasses such as the Xpand X103 and have similar brightness as using the projectors manufacturer's own glasses. If you do use a screen that maintains a lot of the polarizaton from an LCoS projector, such as the JVCs, then you need to use glasses that have polarization that matches that of the projector and you will get an additional boost in brightness due to the polarization of the light coming off of the screen.
Thanks.

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Old 01-07-2011, 08:04 PM
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Except for higher CR, does the rs-50 offer any advantages over the rs-40/Radiancemini 3d combination?
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

No - shutter glasses need a polarizing element in order to work. What it means if you are using a screen with a zero (0) rating for retaining polarization is that the orientation of the polarizing element in the glasses makes no difference. Thus you could use universal glasses such as the Xpand X103 and have similar brightness as using the projectors manufacturer's own glasses even if the universal shutter glasses have a different orientation from the 3D projector. If you do use a screen that maintains a lot of the polarizaton from an LCoS projector, such as the JVCs, then you need to use glasses that have polarization that matches that of the projector and you will get an additional boost in brightness due to the polarization of the light coming off of the screen, but with the wrong orientation on the glasses you would get a significant reduction in brightness.

Hi Ron,

I don't think this is quite right or I apologise if I misunderstood. (Edit: or perhaps I am just supplementing what you were already trying to say)

All light is polarised however we often use the expression polarised to mean a light source where all light is polarised the same way (in a single plane). A typical light bulb produces light that is polarised randomly and we often use the misleading term unpolarised. If you wear a pair of horizontally polarised lenses infront of a normal light bulb, some light will pass through and some won't. Confusingly unpolarised light does NOT mean all light will go through a polarised lens.

If the projector is outputting only horizontally polarised light, and then the screen makes it chaotic/random as it reflects it back to the viewer, then only the light that is STILL polarised horizontally will pass through the glasses and the rest effectively is thrown away.

Therefore by having a screen material that preserves polarisation will actually mean with the JVC glasses you have MORE light than a screen that does not preserve polarisation at all. There is no such thing as light not having any polarisation...if you imagine light as particles then imagine each particle is oriented in some direction.

With a screen material not preserving polarisation, then the JVC and XpanD glasses will behave the same and both will throw away the light elements not matching their polarisation. Neither will provide the brightest possible image, but both will provide the same image brightness.

To obtain the brightest possible 3D image, you would choose a material that preserves polarisation and stick with the JVC glasses. Another perspective, and this is an over simplification, is to say a 1.4 gain screen with polarisation preservation will probably be as bright in 3D as a 2.8 gain screen that doesn't preserve polarisation.
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mskreis View Post

Except for higher CR, does the rs-50 offer any advantages over the rs-40/Radiancemini 3d combination?

The MiniMe will make up for no CMS (and actually may be an even better CMS -TBD - but definitely easier to use) and no 3D gamma in the RS40. Plus it adds 21pt grayscale/gamma control, which is not in the RS50. That leaves the additional CR and dual iris in the RS50 as its advantages. Personally I don't think the extra 20K:1 CR in the RS50 makes it worth it for me because I'm plenty happy with 50K:1 in my RS20. Then again for 3D it may help, who knows. Also know one has been able to articulate a tangible or measurable benefit of the dual iris as of yet, so the advantages of that are TBD as well.

Considering the RS40 + MiniMe is less than the cost of an RS50, and that you get to take the MiniMe with you when you upgrade in the future from the RS50, it certainly is a compelling option.
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

The MiniMe will make up for no CMS (and actually may be an even better CMS -TBD - but definitely easier to use) and no 3D gamma in the RS40. Plus it adds 21pt grayscale/gamma control, which is not in the RS50. That leaves the additional CR and dual iris in the RS50 as its advantages. Personally I don't think the extra 20K:1 CR in the RS50 makes it worth it for me because I'm plenty happy with 50K:1 in my RS20. Then again for 3D it may help, who knows. Also know one has been able to articulate a tangible or measurable benefit of the dual iris as of yet, so the advantages of that are TBD as well.

Considering the RS40 + MiniMe is less than the cost of an RS50, and that you get to take the MiniMe with you when you upgrade in the future from the RS50, it certainly is a compelling option.

Although we still don't know what the real gain is (possibly ANSI contrast) with the dual aperture closed down on the RS50 and RS60. Nobody has had the luxury of a side by side with an RS50 and RS40 yet to tell.
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Although we still don't know what the real gain is (possibly ANSI contrast) with aperture closed down on the RS50 and RS60. Nobody has had the luxury of a side by side with an RS50 and RS40 yet to tell.

Right. But in the meantime do I recall that the ANSI CR measurements on the RS50 cine4home reported have been no different than the RS40 and models before those for that matter? It sounds like in a best case scenario the dual iris may enable you to maintain about the same 300:1 as you stop the iris down. But again, its too early, as Jon said there needs to be a good side by side for this.
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Old 01-07-2011, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mskreis View Post

Except for higher CR, does the rs-50 offer any advantages over the rs-40/Radiancemini 3d combination?

http://www.jvc.eu/dla-x/comparison.html

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Old 01-08-2011, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Hi Ron,

I don't think this is quite right or I apologise if I misunderstood. (Edit: or perhaps I am just supplementing what you were already trying to say)

All light is polarised however we often use the expression polarised to mean a light source where all light is polarised the same way (in a single plane). A typical light bulb produces light that is polarised randomly and we often use the misleading term unpolarised. If you wear a pair of horizontally polarised lenses infront of a normal light bulb, some light will pass through and some won't. Confusingly unpolarised light does NOT mean all light will go through a polarised lens.

If the projector is outputting only horizontally polarised light, and then the screen makes it chaotic/random as it reflects it back to the viewer, then only the light that is STILL polarised horizontally will pass through the glasses and the rest effectively is thrown away.

Therefore by having a screen material that preserves polarisation will actually mean with the JVC glasses you have MORE light than a screen that does not preserve polarisation at all. There is no such thing as light not having any polarisation...if you imagine light as particles then imagine each particle is oriented in some direction.

With a screen material not preserving polarisation, then the JVC and XpanD glasses will behave the same and both will throw away the light elements not matching their polarisation. Neither will provide the brightest possible image, but both will provide the same image brightness.

To obtain the brightest possible 3D image, you would choose a material that preserves polarisation and stick with the JVC glasses. Another perspective, and this is an over simplification, is to say a 1.4 gain screen with polarisation preservation will probably be as bright in 3D as a 2.8 gain screen that doesn't preserve polarisation.

Ok! who is going to invent shutter glasses that don't require polarization.....little rotating wheels perhaps...

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Old 01-08-2011, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Hi Ron,

I don't think this is quite right or I apologise if I misunderstood. (Edit: or perhaps I am just supplementing what you were already trying to say)

All light is polarised however we often use the expression polarised to mean a light source where all light is polarised the same way (in a single plane). A typical light bulb produces light that is polarised randomly and we often use the misleading term unpolarised. If you wear a pair of horizontally polarised lenses infront of a normal light bulb, some light will pass through and some won't. Confusingly unpolarised light does NOT mean all light will go through a polarised lens.

If the projector is outputting only horizontally polarised light, and then the screen makes it chaotic/random as it reflects it back to the viewer, then only the light that is STILL polarised horizontally will pass through the glasses and the rest effectively is thrown away.

Therefore by having a screen material that preserves polarisation will actually mean with the JVC glasses you have MORE light than a screen that does not preserve polarisation at all. There is no such thing as light not having any polarisation...if you imagine light as particles then imagine each particle is oriented in some direction.

With a screen material not preserving polarisation, then the JVC and XpanD glasses will behave the same and both will throw away the light elements not matching their polarisation. Neither will provide the brightest possible image, but both will provide the same image brightness.

To obtain the brightest possible 3D image, you would choose a material that preserves polarisation and stick with the JVC glasses. Another perspective, and this is an over simplification, is to say a 1.4 gain screen with polarisation preservation will probably be as bright in 3D as a 2.8 gain screen that doesn't preserve polarisation.

I agree with what you are saying and I don't believe it's inconsistent with my post, but you have certainly explained it more fully - good post.

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Old 01-08-2011, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

The MiniMe will make up for no CMS (and actually may be an even better CMS -TBD - but definitely easier to use) and no 3D gamma in the RS40. Plus it adds 21pt grayscale/gamma control, which is not in the RS50. That leaves the additional CR and dual iris in the RS50 as its advantages. Personally I don't think the extra 20K:1 CR in the RS50 makes it worth it for me because I'm plenty happy with 50K:1 in my RS20. Then again for 3D it may help, who knows. Also know one has been able to articulate a tangible or measurable benefit of the dual iris as of yet, so the advantages of that are TBD as well.

Considering the RS40 + MiniMe is less than the cost of an RS50, and that you get to take the MiniMe with you when you upgrade in the future from the RS50, it certainly is a compelling option.

Hi Lovingdvd -

Would you choose the minime lumagen, or the new upcoming eecolor box Mark Haflich has been talking about with the new processing chip [forgot chip name]? (as I need an outboard CMS for the RS40)

All these options have me confused. I love the 21pt gamma control of the lumagen, and not sure if the ee color box will have this. Could also get the videoEq pro... But the power buy price on the minime cant be beat.
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Old 01-08-2011, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

The MiniMe will make up for no CMS (and actually may be an even better CMS -TBD - but definitely easier to use) and no 3D gamma in the RS40. Plus it adds 21pt grayscale/gamma control, which is not in the RS50. That leaves the additional CR and dual iris in the RS50 as its advantages. Personally I don't think the extra 20K:1 CR in the RS50 makes it worth it for me because I'm plenty happy with 50K:1 in my RS20. Then again for 3D it may help, who knows. Also know one has been able to articulate a tangible or measurable benefit of the dual iris as of yet, so the advantages of that are TBD as well.

Considering the RS40 + MiniMe is less than the cost of an RS50, and that you get to take the MiniMe with you when you upgrade in the future from the RS50, it certainly is a compelling option.

Thanks for your opinion - sounds like a pretty compelling argument for this combination.
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Old 01-08-2011, 08:59 AM
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Thanks for your opinion - sounds like a pretty compelling argument for this combination.

Sure, but you should also take into account the drop in on/off contrast, it is much more significant in 3D than in 2D, and the 3D mini cannot do anything about that.

A user who went from an rs40 to an rs60 is commenting here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post19788725 how much more shadow detail he's getting in 3D. I can't compare with an rs40 as I haven't owned/seen one, but the quality of 3D and the amount of shadow detail / contrast you get on the rs50 is amazing.

I think this (superior on/off, especially in 3D) and the possible improvement in ANSI contrast due to the dual iris on the rs50-60 are the two biggies in favor of these, especially in a dedicated room. The CMS is only one part of the added/cost difference. I'll try to measure ANSI in both open/close iris position as soon as I have some time.

Not saying the rs40 + 3d mini isn't a good option, just trying to list what you're gaining/losing between the two models. I may consider a 3D mini for my rs50, for a finer gamma calibration and also for the scaling / zooming ability, as I'm hoping it would allow me to shift the picture up/down when I screen say a 2.35 movie on my 16/9 screen (instead of using the mechanical lens shift), but I'm waiting to get a confirmation that this is possible.

In fact if you're not calibrating yoursef, the dark/light adjustments on the rs50-60 are also a big plus, as the first one allows you to fix the black crush in the low end without having to fully calibrate gamma.
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Old 01-08-2011, 10:50 AM
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Completely agree Manni

All things, 3D apart, I was reporting till last year about the vantage of the increased CR of 70.000:1 in the HD990, but noboby believed in my finds ...
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Old 01-08-2011, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post


Although we still don't know what the real gain is (possibly ANSI contrast) with the dual aperture closed down on the RS50 and RS60. Nobody has had the luxury of a side by side with an RS50 and RS40 yet to tell.

Um, I have. The measured contrast difference was less than 3K:1. We're gonna measure another RS50 this week to make sure it wasn't unit specific.

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Old 01-08-2011, 11:06 AM
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I thought I would post this here as this is a very funny find: The first 3D Blu-ray adult film, said to be the most expensive film ever made in the adult video world. It's called This Ain't Avatar and is side by side Blu-ray 3D...hhehe:

http://www.adultvideonation.com/dvds...6e8dd248211071
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Old 01-08-2011, 11:29 AM
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Um, I have. The measured contrast difference was less than 3K:1. We're gonna measure another RS50 this week to make sure it wasn't unit specific.

Kris, do you mean the RS50 was not achieving its stated 70k:1 contrast in 2D? That is rather concerning...hope they haven't been sticking RS40 panels in an RS50 box!!
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Old 01-08-2011, 11:32 AM
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Um, I have. The measured contrast difference was less than 3K:1. We're gonna measure another RS50 this week to make sure it wasn't unit specific.


Interesting.......report back when you measure the other 50.

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Old 01-08-2011, 11:33 AM
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Um, I have. The measured contrast difference was less than 3K:1. We're gonna measure another RS50 this week to make sure it wasn't unit specific.

Hi Kris,

You must be talking about on/off, not ANSI. 300:1 is around the maximum ANSI I could get on the 750, so I doubt there would be 3K difference in ANSI between an rs40 and an rs50.

We are talking about the fact that with previous generations, ANSI contrast goes down as you close the iris. On my 750 in a bat cave (measured with a Tecpel 531 luxmeter, it went from 284:1 to 256:1 (off the projector), and 244:1 to 226:1 (off the screen). So you had to find a compromise between best ANSI and best on/off.

I haven't measured ANSI on my rs50, but the theory is that the dual iris on the rs50-60 may prevent (or limit) this drop in ANSI contrast.

This being said, one would expect the difference on on/off between an rs40 and an rs50 to be more than 3K, but it depends on the absolute numbers. If you had an exceptional rs40 measuring at 57000:1, then guess it wouldn't be a bad things...

Also, at which throw were you measuring? You need to be at the longuest throw to get the best on/off, and therefore maximise the difference between the two models.
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Old 01-08-2011, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Um, I have. The measured contrast difference was less than 3K:1. We're gonna measure another RS50 this week to make sure it wasn't unit specific.

So are you saying for the extra money you get 3K rather than an extra 20K on/off C.R.? Makes the RS40 look pretty good.

IMO, shadow detail is largely a function of gamma, so maybe an outboard processor is a good idea for the RS40, especially if the differences in on/off C.R. aren't that much.
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Old 01-08-2011, 11:47 AM
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So are you saying for the extra money you get 3K rather than an extra 20K on/off C.R.? Makes the RS40 look pretty good.

IMO, shadow detail is largely a function of gamma, so maybe an outboard processor is a good idea for the RS40, especially if the differences in on/off C.R. aren't that much.

If all the RS50s are like that I would pull JVC up on the trades description act in the UK and demand a refund! But JVC have never overstated their claims before. So either its a bad RS50 or a mistake has been made within the factory and the panels muddled up.
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Old 01-08-2011, 11:48 AM
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Um, I have. The measured contrast difference was less than 3K:1. We're gonna measure another RS50 this week to make sure it wasn't unit specific.

Kris that is interesting, I have an RS50 and a friend that works at our local electronics store has an RS40 and he came over to see the projector and measured it and his measurements were very close to the stated ratio, could there have been something wrong with the RS50 you measured?

We also did a side by side (he brought his RS-40 over) and there is quite a noticeable contrast difference in our opinions. I am CLOSE to a bat cave, just need a little extra work on the ceiling. I am using an Elite maxwhite 150" 1.1 gain screen.

Now perhaps he measured wrong as well. But if indeed it turns out that the difference is not as stated I would have gone with the RS-40 and will take this issue to JVC.
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Old 01-08-2011, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by mntwister View Post

Kris that is interesting, I have an RS50 and a friend that works at our local electronics store has an RS40 and he came over to see the projector and measured it and his measurements were very close to the stated ratio, could there have been something wrong with the RS50 you measured?

We also did a side by side (he brought his RS-40 over) and there is quite a noticeable contrast difference in our opinions. I am CLOSE to a bat cave, just need a little extra work on the ceiling. I am using an Elite maxwhite 150" 1.1 gain screen.

Now perhaps he measured wrong as well. But if indeed it turns out that the difference is not as stated I would have gone with the RS-40 and will take this issue to JVC.

Measurements aside, it sounds like you both noticed a significant difference visually as well, right? I would venture a guess and say your friend produced good measurements.

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Old 01-08-2011, 11:58 AM
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Okay... after spending almost 3 weeks with this machine, attempting to tinker with all the available options and reading this book cover to cover... I don't feel any smarter.






Kevin

You only live once, but if you live it right, once is enough.
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==> The Richter Family 3D Theater  
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Old 01-08-2011, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mntwister View Post

Kris that is interesting, I have an RS50 and a friend that works at our local electronics store has an RS40 and he came over to see the projector and measured it and his measurements were very close to the stated ratio, could there have been something wrong with the RS50 you measured?

We also did a side by side (he brought his RS-40 over) and there is quite a noticeable contrast difference in our opinions. I am CLOSE to a bat cave, just need a little extra work on the ceiling. I am using an Elite maxwhite 150" 1.1 gain screen.

Now perhaps he measured wrong as well. But if indeed it turns out that the difference is not as stated I would have gone with the RS-40 and will take this issue to JVC.


You have friends out in the Minn/Canadian wilderness that can measure accurate light output but you can't find anyone to help you calibrate the PJ??

If your friends name is Steve Bushemi from Fargo then I want nothing to do with that!

Kevin

You only live once, but if you live it right, once is enough.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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Old 01-08-2011, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post


Chris

Do you know what is being looked into in terms of firmware updates for:

- 720SBS
- Edge fringing/ blue flashes with CMD modes 1 or 2
- Ability to enable CMD and FI simultaneously, similar to Sony

Thanks

On the 3D format support, JVC is working with Directv according to JVC US rep here@CES. They will not say whether it is possible to update firmware for 720pSBS support, no engineers available, but speaking to a few reps they all seem to be aware of the optional 3D support issues folks have concerns about.

Company line here at CES, is they support mandatory formats only by design, and they are aware of the issues with content and concerns about additional formats but cannot comment on how, when, or if it will be addressed.

On a side note switching thru an Onkyo had some sync issues going from their 3D camcorder to Polar Express...not surprised
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Old 01-08-2011, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by monstosity12 View Post

Hi Lovingdvd -

Would you choose the minime lumagen, or the new upcoming eecolor box Mark Haflich has been talking about with the new processing chip [forgot chip name]? (as I need an outboard CMS for the RS40)

All these options have me confused. I love the 21pt gamma control of the lumagen, and not sure if the ee color box will have this. Could also get the videoEq pro... But the power buy price on the minime cant be beat.

Sorry I can't comment as I do not have any info about the ee color box. I trust the Lumagen name and that their products work great and that they will quickly address any bugs and have engineers directly accessible (a rarity these days). So unless another vendor has a much cheaper solution that is proven to work equally as well and support 3D I personally would go with the Lumagen.
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