Official JVC RS-50 Owner's Thread - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 4220 Old 12-14-2010, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post


Thanks Jeff. When you say motion, are you referring to the FI modes, motion blur (sample and hold), motion induced contouring, color fringing or all of the above?

Also, how did you find the light output and on/off CR compared to last year?

And finally, when you say the color worked different, was this in a good way, bad way or neither better nor worse?

Images in motion looked more like a Lumis than in the past.

On/off was higher and light output looked similar.

Color did not change for the better. The CMS worked differently and was buggy. It would at times corrupt color in odd ways and require reseting the color memory to clear it or not save changes. Saving CMS changes frequently after checking is a good idea. CMS changes are also very slow requiring much more time.
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post #122 of 4220 Old 12-14-2010, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Images in motion looked more like a Lumis than in the past.

On/off was higher and light output looked similar.

Color did not change for the better. The CMS worked differently and was buggy. It would at times corrupt color in odd ways and require reseting the color memory to clear it or not save changes. Saving CMS changes frequently after checking is a good idea. CMS changes are also very slow requiring much more time.

Did you calibrate both 2D and 3D?

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post #123 of 4220 Old 12-14-2010, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by cpc View Post

To me it looks like they are showing you how far away from a back wall you need to be. It looks to me like the diagram is showing that the front where the lens, light and exhaust is should be totally and completely free of anything what-so-ever. I guess we'd need verification.

Anybody talk to JVC about this?

Yes, GaryB confirmed to my in the UK thread that no clearance was necessary in the back. I was asking specifically if using 90 degrees angled cables for the power and HDMI cables, precisely to minimise this distance between back wall and back of the PJ, and Gary confirmed that apart from whatever was needed because of the cables themselves, no additional clearance was required.
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post #124 of 4220 Old 12-14-2010, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

In full on/off, there isn't enough light reflecting from the screen to reflect back off the walls and onto the screen to raise the black level. This is why light colored walls don't affect on/off CR. With a mixed image, there is more light bouncing off your walls to the screen which is why ANSI CR is affected.

The quantity of light is irrelevant.

Whatever % of light reflects and returns to the screen with full on is the same % as with full off, so the effect of room reflections cancels out.

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post #125 of 4220 Old 12-14-2010, 06:43 PM
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agree wholeheartedly. I'd really like to know how these compare to the RS35. I've been toying with prospect of upgrading but would really like to wait until a longer lasting light source is implemented or a dramatic 2D PQ improvement is evident.[/quote]

I have the RS20 and am that impressed with it that I feel exactly the same way, the image this throws is superb. As much as I'd like to get a new toy, I would also like a longer lasting stable light source as well as an improvement in picture quality that is obvious without A/B comparisons to be able to notice them.
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post #126 of 4220 Old 12-14-2010, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by cpc View Post

To me it looks like they are showing you how far away from a back wall you need to be. It looks to me like the diagram is showing that the front where the lens, light and exhaust is should be totally and completely free of anything what-so-ever. I guess we'd need verification.

Anybody talk to JVC about this?


How do we mount an Anamorphic lens? when not in use it will be in front of the exhaust.
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post #127 of 4220 Old 12-14-2010, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

It comes up a lot and really isn't a hard concept to grasp. I know you get it Highlander. In full on/off, there isn't enough light reflecting from the screen to reflect back off the walls and onto the screen to raise the black level. This is why light colored walls don't affect on/off CR. With a mixed image, there is more light bouncing off your walls to the screen which is why ANSI CR is affected.

I guess the only images you watch are full field black screens, in which case light colored walls won't affect the image on the screen, but still distract your peripheral vision. For normal people who watch actual movies, light colored walls will wash out and raise the black level of aspect ratio bars and any other dark parts of the image. I was talking about image BLACK LEVEL, I never mentioned on/off contrast or even ANSI. Maybe you can grasp the concept now.
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post #128 of 4220 Old 12-14-2010, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

The quantity of light is irrelevant.

Whatever % of light reflects and returns to the screen with full on is the same % as with full off, so the effect of room reflections cancels out.

Yes. This is a better explanation. Thanks.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #129 of 4220 Old 12-14-2010, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by RevelMN View Post

How do we mount an Anamorphic lens? when not in use it will be in front of the exhaust.

Good point. I never thought of that. Of course, if and when I ever go that route, I would probably go manual and just build a nice footing to place the lens in front and remove it carefully when not in use.

The picture to me looks like a picture from the side. If you look at the front and/or the back and look at the side (there are photo's on the JVC dot com Pro website for the RS40) you can see the similarity. If it is true that the projector doesn't need any, or much clearance in the back, that is great, but I don't think that is what it says to me. I emailed JVC. If I'm wrong, then great, I can back up my projector a bit more.

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/p...&feature_id=04
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post #130 of 4220 Old 12-14-2010, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Did you calibrate both 2D and 3D?

No 3D at his home.
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post #131 of 4220 Old 12-14-2010, 09:45 PM
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Jeff. What do those axis controls for RGB do?

Lawguy. If the CMS uses the correct formulas for deriving the secondaries, once the primaries are right, correction of the secondaries should not be necessary. If correction of the secondaries is necessary, once you correct the secondaries, it is highly likely that all points in between the secondaries and primaries will still be wrong.

It was my understanding the the orange correction was for 3D mode and the boosted color temperature, making skin tones look particularly off.

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post #132 of 4220 Old 12-14-2010, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

...Appeared to have better ANSI than previous year....

Thanks! Did you measure an improvement or is this a subjective observation you made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Images in motion looked more like a Lumis than in the past.

I'm not familiar with the Lumis, but take it that's a good thing when you say its more like it than in the past. Can you provide an example of the ways in which it is better?

Quote:


On/off was higher...

Did it meet the 70,000:1 spec?

Quote:


Color did not change for the better. The CMS worked differently and was buggy. It would at times corrupt color in odd ways and require reseting the color memory to clear it or not save changes. Saving CMS changes frequently after checking is a good idea. CMS changes are also very slow requiring much more time.

Say it ain't so! Oh brother. Here we go again... Despite all the fussing with it, were you able to dial it in very close to Rec 709 in the end? Did you happen to notice if it tracked just as well at 75% vs 100%?

Also, were you able to determine what the new Color Axis control does in the CMS?

Did you see any need to calibrate orange with the new control?

Thanks for the great feedback!
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post #133 of 4220 Old 12-14-2010, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I thought the RS40 had that too.


Not according to the manual, but of course it could be wrong. It has X7/X9 in bold next to both the settings for Lightness/Darkness and Film Tone.
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post #134 of 4220 Old 12-14-2010, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Don't forget the minimum distance to the back wall that JVC has listed. This is to allow for air flow. I don't have the spec here, but it is in the master thread. It wasn't too much.

I am lucky in this respect too....I have over 20 feet behind so being close to any wall is not a problem. This is a huge finished basement not divided into rooms but just one huge room.
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post #135 of 4220 Old 12-15-2010, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Just finished my first RS50. Appeared to have better ANSI than previous year. Motion was much better than last year. Colors work differently. Light output similar to RS25. Sharp image. Still has anti-alias filter. Good looking unit.

Are you booked for any RS40 calibrations yet? I'm wondering how close it gets to rec709 without a CMS once the greyscale is properly dialed in.

What's the anti-alias filter you refer to and what effect does it have?

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #136 of 4220 Old 12-15-2010, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by umr View Post
No 3D at his home.
Hi Jeff,

Any recommendations for calibrating in 3D? As far as setting brightness and contrast, would putting the projector in 3D mode, wearing the glasses while activated, and then looking at 2D test patterns for brightness and contrast suffice?
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post #137 of 4220 Old 12-15-2010, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S

Are you booked for any RS40 calibrations yet? I'm wondering how close it gets to rec709 without a CMS once the greyscale is properly dialed in.

What's the anti-alias filter you refer to and what effect does it have?
Have not worked on an RS40 and have none scheduled. Can't say what it will do.

The anti-alias filter reduces the MTF at the highest frequencies in attempt to reduce moire from some sources.
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post #138 of 4220 Old 12-15-2010, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd

Thanks! Did you measure an improvement or is this a subjective observation you made?

I'm not familiar with the Lumis, but take it that's a good thing when you say its more like it than in the past. Can you provide an example of the ways in which it is better?

Did it meet the 70,000:1 spec?

Say it ain't so! Oh brother. Here we go again... Despite all the fussing with it, were you able to dial it in very close to Rec 709 in the end? Did you happen to notice if it tracked just as well at 75% vs 100%?

Also, were you able to determine what the new Color Axis control does in the CMS?

Did you see any need to calibrate orange with the new control?

Thanks for the great feedback!
I spent all my time fixing what I can. Contrast, sharpness and motion comments are observations.

Axis adjustment was not very useful. Colors were not as good as my RS20 prior to CMS fix. Adding all of these new color features and changing the CMS was a negative on this unit.
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post #139 of 4220 Old 12-15-2010, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikenificent1

Hi Jeff,

Any recommendations for calibrating in 3D? As far as setting brightness and contrast, would putting the projector in 3D mode, wearing the glasses while activated, and then looking at 2D test patterns for brightness and contrast suffice?
No comment on things I have not done with a product.
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post #140 of 4220 Old 12-15-2010, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Have not worked on an RS40 and have none scheduled. Can't say what it will do.

The anti-alias filter reduces the MTF at the highest frequencies in attempt to reduce moire from some sources.

Thanks for the explaination Jeff. I'd be interested to see how you get on with the RS40 if you do end up doing one.

Also interesting re your comments about the RS50 CMS and there is another thread suggesting that the CMS in RS20 might not be as good as we though (when compared to a Lumagen). Makes me wonder if I may as well keep my VideoEQ Pro as I'd thought about selling it to put towards getting an RS40/50.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #141 of 4220 Old 12-15-2010, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

...Colors were not as good as my RS20 prior to CMS fix...

Thanks. Am I understanding you correctly - that you are saying the RS50 CMS is worse off than how the CMS functioned in the RS20 even prior the firmware fix?

Also on another note - did you see note any improvements that you may be able to attribute to the dual aperture that was introduced in the RS50/60 this year?

If the RS50 CMS doesn't work so great, and one doesn't care about the additional 20K:1 boost in on/off CR, I think that leaves the dual aperture as the only remaining primary benefit over the RS40. In which case the better approach may be RS40 + DVDO Duo...
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post #142 of 4220 Old 12-15-2010, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Also on another note - did you see note any improvements that you may be able to attribute to the dual aperture that was introduced in the RS50/60 this year?

If the RS50 CMS doesn't work so great, and one doesn't care about the additional 20K:1 boost in on/off CR, I think that leaves the dual aperture as the only remaining primary benefit over the RS40. In which case the better approach may be RS40 + DVDO Duo...

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post #143 of 4220 Old 12-15-2010, 02:25 PM
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What I find amusing is the selective dispute with what I reported. If there was something negative with the Sony, I obviously had a completely s**t-upon, dysfunctional unit.

Your comment is dishonest. You said that your Sony had 3 to 4 pixels of misconvergence! I trusted your words. The basis for saying that your PJ was broken was from YOUR OWN report of 3 to 4 pixels of MC. Tell me your new JVC has that amount of MC and I'll equally claim it's broken and you should return it right away.

I started to doubt your claim and I made a screenshot of what 1/2 pixel of MC looks like, and it was deemed "average". I showed you what 3 to 4 pixels of MC looked like and THEN you went back on your statement. The real problem was that your convergence claim was false.
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post #144 of 4220 Old 12-15-2010, 02:55 PM
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To have 3-4 pixels of MC would require one of the panels to be badly tilted, otherwise you could always correct for it.

However, I have seen people commenting they adjusted their Sony by 2-3 pixels to get it "good". Now throwing away 2-3 pixels of resolution is hardly an issue, but I don't believe JVCs are ever that far out to start with. Nevertheless its largely irrelevant.

My RS-50/X7 has a red panel that is slighty tilted, so there is no perfect resolution for it. However after warming up, which seems to change the MC, it remains good except for one corner where it hits about 0.8 / 0.9 of a pixel out at the very edge. My personal tolerance is within half a pixel in the centre, and within 1 pixel to the edges...but some would find that still too much.
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post #145 of 4220 Old 12-15-2010, 04:04 PM
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A quick question for the RS50 owners who are doing 3D: How did you install the IR emitter? From what I remeber you can either install it close to the projector and have it bounce off of the screen and reflect back towards the viewer or you can place it closer to the screen and have it beam directly towards the viewer. I'll probably do the former and was wondering if anyone used that method and how did it work?

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post #146 of 4220 Old 12-15-2010, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Captfluoro View Post

A quick question for the RS50 owners who are doing 3D: How did you install the IR emitter? From what I remeber you can either install it close to the projector and have it bounce off of the screen and reflect back towards the viewer or you can place it closer to the screen and have it beam directly towards the viewer. I'll probably do the former and was wondering if anyone used that method and how did it work?

I have the emitter next to pj, bouncing off screen. Great range. No problems.

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post #147 of 4220 Old 12-15-2010, 06:02 PM
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Awesome, thanks.

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post #148 of 4220 Old 12-15-2010, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by adidadi View Post

I have the emitter next to pj, bouncing off screen. Great range. No problems.

Have you noticed the emitter causing any interference with your other equipment receiving IR signals from your remotes?
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post #149 of 4220 Old 12-15-2010, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omicronian View Post

Your comment is dishonest. You said that your Sony had 3 to 4 pixels of misconvergence! I trusted your words. The basis for saying that your PJ was broken was from YOUR OWN report of 3 to 4 pixels of MC. Tell me your new JVC has that amount of MC and I'll equally claim it's broken and you should return it right away.

I started to doubt your claim and I made a screenshot of what 1/2 pixel of MC looks like, and it was deemed "average". I showed you what 3 to 4 pixels of MC looked like and THEN you went back on your statement. The real problem was that your convergence claim was false.

My comment was not at at all dishonest. You are discounting what the Sony engineers said regarding the disconnect between the issues.

Regarding the amount of misconvergence, I posted my best estimate as to what it was, but also posted the image for all others to see. When you posted what you said was three or four pixels of forced misconvergence, I noted that perhaps my inital estimate was too high. I no longer have the unit so I cannot test a single pixel pattern anymore.

My point stands - some of the commentary in that thread from a few individuals implied anything wrong with the Sony must be one-off defect related; if I pointed out a deficiency with the rs50, no such concern of a possible defect - must be just the way the unit performs....

IFnally, if my 90's misconvergence is deemed not so bad, then blaming the motion and fringing issues on misconvergence is further unlikely.
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post #150 of 4220 Old 12-15-2010, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captfluoro View Post

A quick question for the RS50 owners who are doing 3D: How did you install the IR emitter? From what I remeber you can either install it close to the projector and have it bounce off of the screen and reflect back towards the viewer or you can place it closer to the screen and have it beam directly towards the viewer. I'll probably do the former and was wondering if anyone used that method and how did it work?

Bouncing off the screen is about all you can do as the emitter cable is really not long enough to be placed at the front of the theater. An extension cable would be need to try the direct method...
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