Official JVC RS-50 Owner's Thread - Page 66 - AVS Forum
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post #1951 of 4220 Old 03-19-2011, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

..................Before I started working for AVS I cautioned in posts that I suspected the 1300 ANSI claim that JVC was making in its ads and specs was not lumens with the projector calibrated to d65. I felt there would be some increase from last year due to a bigger more efficient bulb and a redesigned light engine to improve efficiency but I couldn't comprehend how 1300 might be possible without jacking up color temperature and lowering gamma to say 1.8, going short throw, wide open iris, and then jacking up contrast. The race this year was for 3D and reasonably bright 3D, all else be damned.

.............................

I thought that JVC made it clear from the begining (CEDIA) that the 1300 lumens was at 8500K so no one should have believed or assumed it was at D65. At that time there was speculation that perhaps in 2D calibrated at D65 it would be perhaps 1000 lumens or even a little more, but that hasn't turned out to be the case. Also many specutated that the quoted 1300 lumens at 8500K must be for the 3D mode, where extra light output would be needed, but that didn't turn out to be the case either. Rather it a mode similar to what most of the other projector manufactures include (usually calling it vivid, dynamic, or something else along those lines) so they can advertise a big lumens number, but of little value in a home theater environment.

Also Mark your AVS PM mailbox is full. I tried to send you a follow-up to my earlier PM this afternoon but received a message back that it couldn't be delivered because your mail box is full.

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post #1952 of 4220 Old 03-19-2011, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Thanks to the defenders. Yes. The try it was for those who might want to see the level of magnitude improvement they will likely get by adding a Lumagen to their set up.

Lumens are down and dirty measured by zooming the picture to your screen size, putting up a full screen 100 IRE pattern and measuring at screen center with the meter pointed at the projector. Projector settings such as iris, lamp mode, and I believe contrast will affect this reading. Lumens are converted to ft lamberts on screen by multiplying the lumens by your screen gain. With the right equipment illumination off the screen can be measured off the screen.

Before I started working for AVS I cautioned in posts that I suspected the 1300 ANSI claim that JVC was making in its ads and specs was not lumens with the projector calibrated to d65. I felt there would be some increase from last year due to a bigger more efficient bulb and a redesigned light engine to improve efficiency but I couldn't comprehend how 1300 might be possible without jacking up color temperature and lowering gamma to say 1.8, going short throw, wide open iris, and then jacking up contrast. The race this year was for 3D and reasonably bright 3D, all else be damned.

As a consumer, I suggested that a 40 with say a Radiance XS might be a better choice than a 50 by itself. But of course I was intrigued by the differences between a 40 and a 50 other than a CMS and increased on off, namely the lamp iris and some additional filtering options. I did postulate that in theory obtaining the lower on off of the 40 with a 50 should enable the 50 to be brighter since the 50 would then not have to be placed at maximum throw and set to minimum iris to reach the 40s on off.

I am a straight shooter which is one of the very few endearing qualities I have. Not speaking here about JVC but to all things we sell, there are certainly times I can't say what I might really feel. So I sometimes just have to recline and read what you guys feel agreeing with some and disagreeing with others. I do think sometimes we tend to pound things into the ground a little too much.

As one advances in age, one learns to try and solve a problem rather than bitching about it. Sometimes problems can't be solved.

People often want to make the perfect decision. Most decisions are imperfect. That said, I am always here to help as most here who have called or pmed me know.

Being part of this from pretty much the beginning, I do remember you making those statements Mark so it shouldn't be a huge surprise I guess, but like Jason and others have been following up on Jon's first "where's the lumens" post none of us understand (nor accept), the huge difference in the actual readings.

And as Larry stated, what I said was tongue-n-cheek. You sir have nothing to defend yourself (or AVS), against on this matter (but JVC does). If it came off as some sort of attack on you, then I apologize. You've been nothing but very helpful this whole time, and I guess from all our past conversations you would have surmised my "smart-ass-ed-ness" up front.

Now if only JVC were so helpful we'd be feeling a lot better on spending that extra couple she"K"els on the THX models.

Thanks to Jason's help I took the plunge and started doing my own cal's. Here are a couple of initial pics that pretty much back up what most of the group here have been seeing as well.


Initial settings:

100% White Field
Picture Mode: User 2
Color Profile = Off
Temp = 9500 (wanted to see just how bright I could get it)
Gamma Normal
Lamp Power = HIGH
Lens Aperture = 0
Bulb Hours = 210
Screen: 110" (96x54") Seymour AT (non XD) @ .95 brightness


Estimated 925 Lumens

Now resetting bulb to LOW and Apeture = 0

Picture Mode: User 2
Color Profile = Off
Temp = 9500
Gamma Normal
Lamp Power = LOW
Lens Aperture = 0
Bulb Hours = 210


Estimated 552 Lumens


NOW switching the Color Profile on from initial settings below in HIGH lamp mode:

Picture Mode: User 2
Color Profile = STANDARD
Temp = 9500
Gamma Normal
Lamp Power = HIGH
Lens Aperture = 0
Bulb Hours = 210


Estimated 470 Lumens



NOW switching the Color Profile on from initial settings below in LOW lamp mode:

Picture Mode: User 2
Color Profile = STANDARD
Temp = 9500
Gamma Normal
Lamp Power = LOW
Lens Aperture = 0
Bulb Hours = 210


Estimated 352 Lumens


AND NOW Finally . . . Changing to:
Picture Mode THX w/ Initial D65
Lamp=LOW


Estimated 346 Lumens



Lastly my initial readings of Grayscale using the Rec709 profile :

Picture Mode: User 2
Color Profile = Standard
Temp = 6500
Gamma Normal
Lamp Power = LOW
Lens Aperture = 0
Bulb Hours = 211


Estimated 340 Lumens


How can a device like this go from 925 Lumens to 340 Lumens (almost a third!), by virtue of adding a Standard Color profile @ D65 without some software glitch being the cause?? Help me understand this please!

Kevin

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post #1953 of 4220 Old 03-19-2011, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

In the latest Widescreen Review, Joe Kane says that there is a 100 watt/6000 lumen LED lamp available now - rated for 22,000 hours. Sounds like the perfect lamp for my next 3D projector.

Yeah, I read that too... Great article.

Really wish something like this will be possible in a not to distant future...

In the mean time I will have to rely on my "poor" rs50.
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post #1954 of 4220 Old 03-19-2011, 08:20 PM
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Kevin - if you get a minute, go back to this setting and change the color temp to 6500, everything else the same.

Picture Mode: User 2
Color Profile = STANDARD
Temp = 9500
Gamma Normal
Lamp Power = HIGH
Lens Aperture = 0
Bulb Hours = 210

Go to a 30IRE screen and a 80IRE and get measurements. This way you can an idea of where the red level is. To correct, you would change the temp to custom, use 6500 as a baseline, and then adjust the 6 color controls.

Let's say red @ 80IRE is 83% red, 102% green, 105% blue. Lower the Green and Blue 'Gain' setting until you get all 3 close to 100%. You have to go back and forth between green and blue to get it right.

Then do the same thing @ 30IRE, but this time adjust the RGB offset values. This might mean pulling back red a few notches, and adjusting either blue or green accordingly to get close to 100% across all 3 values.

You may have to go back and forth to get it close between 30 & 80 (I think there is a continuous scan icon in the application). Then run a full grey scale measurement. The results will show how close RGB is to 100% from 10-100 IRE. The dE is the error you are off from perfect grey scale.

By correcting for a lower red value, you are also lowering the lumens by pulling out the gain for green and blue. This could be as much as 100 lumens if the correction is large enough from a default setting where red is low and blue / green are 'too high'.

On my current lamp, THX is 455 lumens (red is low in THX mode) and D65 corrected is 360 lumens.

now your in trouble, have fun staring at calibration screens for hours on end trying to get a perfect greyscale.
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post #1955 of 4220 Old 03-19-2011, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Kevin - if you get a minute, go back to this setting and change the color temp to 6500, everything else the same.

Picture Mode: User 2
Color Profile = STANDARD
Temp = 9500
Gamma Normal
Lamp Power = HIGH
Lens Aperture = 0
Bulb Hours = 210

Go to a 30IRE screen and a 80IRE and get measurements. This way you can an idea of where the red level is. To correct, you would change the temp to custom, use 6500 as a baseline, and then adjust the 6 color controls.

Let's say red @ 80IRE is 83% red, 102% green, 105% blue. Lower the Green and Blue 'Gain' setting until you get all 3 close to 100%. You have to go back and forth between green and blue to get it right.

Then do the same thing @ 30IRE, but this time adjust the RGB offset values. This might mean pulling back red a few notches, and adjusting either blue or green accordingly to get close to 100% across all 3 values.

You may have to go back and forth to get it close between 30 & 80 (I think there is a continuous scan icon in the application). Then run a full grey scale measurement. The results will show how close RGB is to 100% from 10-100 IRE. The dE is the error you are off from perfect grey scale.

By correcting for a lower red value, you are also lowering the lumens by pulling out the gain for green and blue. This could be as much as 100 lumens if the correction is large enough from a default setting where red is low and blue / green are 'too high'.

On my current lamp, THX is 455 lumens (red is low in THX mode) and D65 corrected is 360 lumens.

now your in trouble, have fun staring at calibration screens for hours on end trying to get a perfect greyscale.

Thanks Jason.

I added the Lumens just now too. I didn't take Rec709 reading at HIGH lamp mode but pretty much everything else. I'll try that tomorrow. My brain was a little fried after 4 hours of this. I have a whole Word doc of the reading in each mode & color profile AND with each step down of (-1,-2,-4,-6,-8) if you're interested. Zipped it's almost 5mb!

Interestingly each decrease of the aperture resulted in about a ftL each step.

Initial = 24.42 ftL
-1 Ap = 23.33 ftL
-2 Ap = 22.38 ftL
-4 Ap = 20.44 ftL
-6 Ap = 17.92 ftL
-8 Ap = 15.60 ftL

Kevin

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post #1956 of 4220 Old 03-19-2011, 09:27 PM
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Oh and I realize this isn't a thread for learning about proper calibration techniques but just a quick question to the vets why it would be a bad idea to just set the overall RGB gains in the SM and be done with it (other than the obvious that it affects all modes; which I realize)??

I also found it interesting that in 3D mode 8500K Gamma 'A' I was getting 13.69 ftL then switching to Gamma 'B' I got 13.657 and when switching to D65 it only went down to 13.638 ftL. Why?? I would have expected a larger drop, but what do I know.

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post #1957 of 4220 Old 03-19-2011, 10:04 PM
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just setting the gains without the offsets isn't going to give a correct grey scale at the lower IRE levels.

That's why you have to go back and forth between 30 & 80 to dial gain/offset to get the best match possible. Changing one will affect the other requiring small tweaks to get it right.

I put the projector at shortest throw possible from the 142" screen which is ~ 14.1 feet. The lamp is at 225 hours.

  • Torch Mode (Color profile is off, strong green/blue tint) - 843 Lumens

  • THX Default - 488

  • D65 correction - 393

This is an 8% difference from my previous location at 17 feet.
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post #1958 of 4220 Old 03-19-2011, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

just setting the gains without the offsets isn't going to give a correct grey scale at the lower IRE levels.

That's why you have to go back and forth between 30 & 80 to dial gain/offset to get the best match possible. Changing one will affect the other requiring small tweaks to get it right.

I put the projector at shortest throw possible from the 142" screen which is ~ 14.1 feet. The lamp is at 225 hours.

  • Torch Mode (Color profile is off, strong green/blue tint) - 843 Lumens

  • THX Default - 488

  • D65 correction - 393

This is an 8% difference from my previous location at 17 feet.


Makes sense bro thanks!

Kevin

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post #1959 of 4220 Old 03-20-2011, 09:08 AM
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With all this talk of lumens....how does one convert lumens to FT. Lamberts or vice versa? Proj Central uses Ft. Lamberts so when I'm trying to compare people's results to projector/screen combinations I've used in the past, I need to convert.
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post #1960 of 4220 Old 03-20-2011, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post
With all this talk of lumens....how does one convert lumens to FT. Lamberts or vice versa? Proj Central uses Ft. Lamberts so when I'm trying to compare people's results to projector/screen combinations I've used in the past, I need to convert.
Foot Lamberts = Lumens x screen gain / screen size in square feet

Be careful when comparing results from different people since some are using the measurements taken from the screen, using instruments such as a Eye-One (colorimeter) and depending on the specific screen material and the specific measuring setup this can provide very inaccurate values for lumens (or foot lamberts). The correct way to measure lumens is to use a light meter, ideally one that directly reads in Lux, to measure the light output from the projector and not off the the screen.

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post #1961 of 4220 Old 03-20-2011, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Foot Lamberts = Lumens x screen gain / screen size in square feet

Be careful when comparing results from different people since some are using the measurements taken from the screen, using instruments such as a Eye-One (colorimeter) and depending on the specific screen material and the specific measuring setup this can provide very inaccurate values for lumens (or foot lamberts). The correct way to measure lumens is to use a light meter, ideally one that directly reads in Lux, to measure the light output from the projector and not off the the screen.

Ok. I was thinking mainly of converting back and forth between measurements I see on Projector Centrals Calculator to what people on here measure for the RS40, 50 and 60 etc.
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post #1962 of 4220 Old 03-20-2011, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post

With all this talk of lumens....how does one convert lumens to FT. Lamberts or vice versa? Proj Central uses Ft. Lamberts so when I'm trying to compare people's results to projector/screen combinations I've used in the past, I need to convert.

Hi,

I'm not sure what you mean regarding Projector Central. Their comparison of projectors lists the manufacturer's claimed ANSI lumens and as we know these value may not be very reliable in terms of usable lumens. I haven't seen any foot-lamberts used in their Projection Calculator. It appears that their calculator uses the manufacturer's claimed lumens and then based on the user selected throw, screen size and screen gain it calculates the maximum allowable room lighting in foot-candles.

I find their calculator very useful in determining minimum and maximum throw for a selected screen size, but it doesn't seem to have any value in comparing projector/screen combinations.

I've been using Ron Jones' and FLBoy's screen calculators to compare projector/screen combinations for my physical layout.

Larry

P.S. Ron started this very helpful thread that you might find useful.

Discussion - Screens for 3D Projection
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post #1963 of 4220 Old 03-20-2011, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi,

I'm not sure what you mean regarding Projector Central. Their comparison of projectors lists the manufacturer's claimed ANSI lumens and as we know these value may not be very reliable in terms of usable lumens. I haven't seen any foot-lamberts used in their Projection Calculator. It appears that their calculator uses the manufacturer's claimed lumens and then based on the user selected throw, screen size and screen gain it calculates the maximum allowable room lighting in foot-candles.

I find their calculator very useful in determining minimum and maximum throw for a selected screen size, but it doesn't seem to have any value in comparing projector/screen combinations.

I've been using Ron Jones' and FLBoy's screen calculators to compare projector/screen combinations for my physical layout.

Larry

P.S. Ron started this very helpful thread that you might find useful.

Discussion - Screens for 3D Projection

Fair enough, thanks. I won't be using a very large screen. Approximately 100" diag 16:9 and/or possibly a 2.35:1 screen same height.
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post #1964 of 4220 Old 03-20-2011, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post

Fair enough, thanks. I won't be using a very large screen. Approximately 100" diag 16:9 and/or possibly a 2.35:1 screen same height.

Hi,

Ron is the expert on this subject and hopefully he will correct anything I may have mistated, but here's a brief summary of what I've done to calculate projector/screen trade-off considerations.

First I use FLBoy's All Screen Gain Calculator to determine the expected delivered gain of the proposed screen material based on my room's physical layout. The calculator adjusts the maximum quoted screen gain based on supplying it with data about the screen material, throw distance, mounting distance of the projector lens relative to the center of the screen, primary viewing location, etc.

Then I use this delivered gain value as input to Ron's Simple Projection Calculator to calculate the estimated 2D and 3D foot-lamberts. I consider a target of 16 foot-lamberts as being adequate for 2D viewing, and 5 foot-lamberts for adequate 3D viewing. In addition to the delivered gain input, Ron's calculator requires inputting the screen size, aspect ratio, expected projector lumen output in 2D mode, 3D mode light loss due to glasses and percent of polarization retained by the screen material.

Here's an example of an analysis I ran comparing 5 different screen materials using an RS40 projector.

For these calculations I assumed that the projector output would drop to 500 lumens after around 300 hours and hopefully stablize there. So based on my specific physical layout and screen size here are the results.


Code:
Material             FH       UM150      UM200      5D       D-L HP

Delv. gain          1.25       1.46       1.92     1.87        1.87

2D ftl              14.6       17.1       22.5      21.9        21.9

3D ftl               4.4        4.3        5.6      6.6         4.4

So for this relatively low lumen situation it looks like only the Ultramatte 200 or the Silver 5D screen materials would be satisfactory based on my desired target foot-lamberts. Selecting the Silver 5D would permit the lumens to drop below 400 lumens and still produce adequate 2D and 3D results of about 16 and 5 foot-lamberts respectively.

Likewise, I can run similar comparisons using other projectors or different estimates of output lumens with usage.

Larry
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post #1965 of 4220 Old 03-20-2011, 06:10 PM
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Evening Gents/Mates!

Okay... I finished my first crack at calibrating the grayscale on my RS50 following Kal's Dummy guide for ColorHCFR using an EyeOne LT along with Jason's help as well.

Would very much appreciate feedback, especially in terms of what I did wrong to make my gamma drop off. I did as instructed in regards to 80% Gain & 30% offset and had the gamma set for 2.2 in the menu. Is this where the CMS comes into play to bring things back up?

Thanks in advance!
Kevin
LL
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LL

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Hi, I'm no expert but try lowering Contrast and then do another greyscale measurement.
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post #1967 of 4220 Old 03-21-2011, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latepmas View Post

Hi, I'm no expert but try lowering Contrast and then do another greyscale measurement.

Thanks but I'm not sure that's my issue here.

Come on guys... need some help here.

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post #1968 of 4220 Old 03-21-2011, 07:00 AM
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Kevin,
IMO, this looks to be an excellent opportunity to start an RS50/60 Calibration Thread. I'd much prefer to see these issues discussed in a separate thread as it will make it much easier to follow issues and questions when the conversation isn't scattered among the many posts in this thread.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

Thanks but I'm not sure that's my issue here.

Come on guys... need some help here.

I replied in the calibration thread here http://www.avforums.com/forums/14297145-post123.html
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post #1970 of 4220 Old 03-21-2011, 08:53 AM
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Can someone send me Mark Haflich's email address. His AVS PM mailbox is full and I wanted to send him a message.

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post #1971 of 4220 Old 03-21-2011, 09:15 AM
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I received my print copy of S&V mag. the other day and saw that Geoffrey Morrison had reviewed the X7. The "test bench" measurements reported in THX mode, with the iris fully open and in high lamp mode, they measured 18.93 foot Lamberts using a gain 1.0, 102" 16x9 screen. I didn't see any indication of what their throw distance was. If you assume they had perhaps 1 inch of overscan all the way around the viewable area of the screen (i.e., assume 104" projected image size), that works out to just over 600 lumens output from the projector. With their own custom calibration they measured a little less light output ( 18.55 FL) which works out to be just under 600 lumens. This is perhaps a little higher than some owners have reported on this forum for their RS50/RS60 with a new bulb, but its still in the ball park.

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post #1972 of 4220 Old 03-21-2011, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Kevin,
IMO, this looks to be an excellent opportunity to start an RS50/60 Calibration Thread. I'd much prefer to see these issues discussed in a separate thread as it will make it much easier to follow issues and questions when the conversation isn't scattered among the many posts in this thread.

I think that's an excellent idea (always have and if you go back a ways I had said what a dissapointment is was for me not having this, because I wanted to jump into this all along), but I just didn't want to be the one to start it since I don't know what the hell I'm doing!

If everyone else thinks that's a good idea I'd be willing but think it might be better served by someone like you or Jason who know a hell of a lot more about calibrations that I do (I excluded Manni & Jon since they already have one going on the other side of the pond on AVF).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

I replied in the calibration thread here http://www.avforums.com/forums/14297145-post123.html

Thanks Manni! Looks like I too might be waiting for the Gamma firmware fix if I can't get it better from your suggestions.


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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Can someone send me Mark Haflich's email address. His AVS PM mailbox is full and I wanted to send him a message.

Crap Ron I didn't see this until I got to work, so if you have not recv'd the info you seek tonight PM me and I'll give you his info w/ phone numbers.

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post #1973 of 4220 Old 03-21-2011, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

.......................
Crap Ron I didn't see this until I got to work, so if you have not recv'd the info you seek tonight PM me and I'll give you his info w/ phone numbers.

I already have Mark's phone #. Wanted to send him some info that I thought wiould be easier by email. No big rush in any case.

UPDATE - I've connected with Mark via his avscience email.

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post #1974 of 4220 Old 03-21-2011, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

I received my print copy of S&V mag. the other day and saw that Geoffrey Morrison had reviewed the X7. The "test bench" measurements reported in THX mode, with the iris fully open and in high lamp mode, they measured 18.93 foot Lamberts using a gain 1.0, 102" 16x9 screen. I didn't see any indication of what their throw distance was. If you assume they had perhaps 1 inch of overscan all the way around the viewable area of the screen (i.e., assume 104" projected image size), that works out to just over 600 lumens output from the projector. With their own custom calibration they measured a little less light output ( 18.55 FL) which works out to be just under 600 lumens. This is perhaps a little higher than some owners have reported on this forum for their RS50/RS60 with a new bulb, but its still in the ball park.

Ron, thank you for posting this info. I recently moved to shortest throw @ 220 hours and recorded 488 lumens in THX. D65 is 393 since I have to pull back a considerable amount of blue / greeen to compensate for the low red value in this particular lamp. This represents at 8% increase over my previous position @ 17ft (shortest is 14.1 feet) I'll go back and measure the 2 hour lamp at shortest throw for the best case scenario.

I believe you measured ~800 in D65 on your low hour RS40? I believe Cinem4home posted ~800 as well.

I'd still like to know if all else equal (hours / throw/ D65) if there is a ~200 lumen discrepancy between the 40 & 50/60.
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post #1975 of 4220 Old 03-21-2011, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

I received my print copy of S&V mag. the other day and saw that Geoffrey Morrison had reviewed the X7. The "test bench" measurements reported in THX mode, with the iris fully open and in high lamp mode, they measured 18.93 foot Lamberts using a gain 1.0, 102" 16x9 screen. I didn't see any indication of what their throw distance was. If you assume they had perhaps 1 inch of overscan all the way around the viewable area of the screen (i.e., assume 104" projected image size), that works out to just over 600 lumens output from the projector. With their own custom calibration they measured a little less light output ( 18.55 FL) which works out to be just under 600 lumens. This is perhaps a little higher than some owners have reported on this forum for their RS50/RS60 with a new bulb, but its still in the ball park.

I'm new to this forum but very seriously trying to decide between an X7 or X9. The disparity between the comments I'm reading here and the review I just read in S+V is confusing to say the least. I'm not overly technical, but have been reading with dismay about the CMS problems and the overwhelmingly negative comments about lumen levels and now talk of false advertising and class action suits! As a result I'm now leaning towards SONY.

But then I pick up S+V and read how great this projector (X7) is and that "...looking at the image created by the X7 will ruin all other displays for you forever. It is really that good. There's a decided 'pop' to the picture. Blacks are incredibly dark and deep and are simultaneously matched with bright, punchy whites." and finally "...puts nearly all other displays to shame."

So how do I juxtapose the overwhelming negative comments of this forum with the overwhelming postive comments of a professional reviewer? I want to think I'm purchasing something great. And yet - somehow I see the depth that forum members go into and - quite honestly the "professional" seemed to just skim the surface. Superlatives without details.

But really which is it? Are the forum contributors being negative within the context that the X7/X9 really is a great projector. Or are you guys really saying don't buy this thing. JVC's marketing is borderline dishonest and it's just not bright enough at 6500K and especially after the bulb breaks in.
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@ Console - I don't think anyone in this thread including myself is disputing that the X7/X9 puts out a fantastic image with great contrast and blacks. There should be a distinct separation between what many agree is excellent image quality vs. potential concerns in other areas.

There are 3 basic items being discussed in the thread.

1. lamp dimming - we know this happens on all other projectors that use a UHP lamp. The question is, how quickly does it happen with the new lamp that JVC decided to use in this 2011 series. Mine dropped 35-40% in the first 220 hours.

2. Lumens in 'best' mode for the RS40 vs the 50/60 - this would generally be a D65 grey scale calibration. Several members are trying to determine if the RS40 is putting out more calibrated lumens than the 50/60. At shortest throw, I can barely break 400 lumens after 220 hours with a D65 calibration.

3. CMS - There are a number of outstanding issues that need to be fixed ASAP since the projector is nearly 4 months into production. If you start messing with a custom gamma setting, it will throw off the greyscale. This isn't supposed to happen. If you start making necessary CMS changes on a wide profile, it will cause saturation issues at lower IRE's.

None of these concerns is a deal breaker if you set your expectations accordingly. JVC marketing might have you believe this new series is 50% brighter than the previous generation which clearly isn't true. They go on about a 7 axis CMS, but don't mention anywhere in the marketing literature that it's not functioning correctly in it's current form.

Casting all these observations aside, the RS50 I have puts out a great IQ and it would have been long gone if it didn't for the $$ I spent.

If you are still interested, then read the observations closely and determine if this works for you in it's current state. Choose the right screen size and material for the calibrated lumens this projector can handle.

I owned an RS40 for a month with 150 viewing hours before picking up the RS50. IMO, the IQ was nearly identical, and while I can't prove it since it's gone, I'm certain it was brighter than my RS50. The 2 main benefits were the CMS and the dual iris, which the jury is still out on this one. The CMS isn't really working correctly at this time, so a wise choice might be the RS40 and if your into calibrating your own display, the Lumigen Mini3D which together should be a bit cheaper than an RS50/X7.
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Art has decided to post a review of the original RS60 that JVC sent him.

The review will be based on the same RS60 that he returned to JVC, due to the projector's low lumen measurements.

In his VW90ES review, he posted that, post calibration, the RS60's best mode measured only 451 lumens.

And that, quote: "With my rather average white screen [Carada BW 1.4], the JVC just wasn't bright enough to watch in 3D even at 80" diagonal."

The review should post late tomorrow night, or on Wednesday.

www.projectorreviews.com/blog/
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post #1978 of 4220 Old 03-21-2011, 09:42 PM
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+1 Couldn't have said it better Jason!

And Console keep in mind that when most of us step back and just watch a movie on these machines, I think we'd all agree it's still of reference quality. We're just a bit frustrated to see that reference state drop off unexpectedly early for a UHP based machine in relation to stated measurements and past JVC results (of said stated measurements). Hopefully JVC will have answers for us soon.

Look back at this post replying to a worried neck392, then go up to the 3/10 threads and you'll find the reaction to keeping his order for the 50:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post20102860

Speaking of juxtaposition as it relates to the Sony (and I assume you mean the VW90), I really don't think you'd be able to justify the added coin to the 50 (maybe the 60). It's still a very good value as long as we're not talking MSRP.

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post #1979 of 4220 Old 03-22-2011, 02:16 AM
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I have some catching up to do on this thread, but wanted to post this right away.

Tonight I went to turn on my RS-50. The lens cover opened and made a strange sound. Then, the bulb started to look like it was turning on and I heard a buzz coming from the back of the projector, and it sounded like it was right at the rear vent. I was able to shut it off but the lens cover did not close. Then I unplugged it for 5 minutes, tried it again and the rear end buzz came back and the 2 red lights came on plus the middle (orange) light and it was flashing.

From this point on, I could only get the same thing. The buzz noise and the 2 red lights on the front lit (steady) with the middle one (orange) flashing. I will call JVC in the morning. Not happy with a 4 month old projector that cost me that much.

Luckily I had not yet sold my Epson 1080, So I hooked that up. Anyone else have this happen or any ideas? The manual says it has to do with the lamp (the flashing orange), but it only has about 550 hours on it. I did notice the last 3-4 weeks the picture seemed to be getting much darker.

It will be interesting to see what JVC says. In my opinion this was a defective lamp, if that is indeed the trouble.
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post #1980 of 4220 Old 03-22-2011, 03:30 AM
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I have some catching up to do on this thread, but wanted to post this right away.

Tonight I went to turn on my RS-50. The lens cover opened and made a strange sound. Then, the bulb started to look like it was turning on and I heard a buzz coming from the back of the projector, and it sounded like it was right at the rear vent. I was able to shut it off but the lens cover did not close. Then I unplugged it for 5 minutes, tried it again and the rear end buzz came back and the 2 red lights came on plus the middle (orange) light and it was flashing.

From this point on, I could only get the same thing. The buzz noise and the 2 red lights on the front lit (steady) with the middle one (orange) flashing. I will call JVC in the morning. Not happy with a 4 month old projector that cost me that much.

Luckily I had not yet sold my Epson 1080, So I hooked that up. Anyone else have this happen or any ideas? The manual says it has to do with the lamp (the flashing orange), but it only has about 550 hours on it. I did notice the last 3-4 weeks the picture seemed to be getting much darker.

It will be interesting to see what JVC says. In my opinion this might be a defective lamp, if that is indeed the trouble. Or it shows that the orange can mean the lens cover is a problem and it did sound weird when it opened the first time (and hasn't closed since).

I really wish I had left that lens cover open permanently.
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