Official JVC RS40/X3 Owners Thread - Page 148 - AVS Forum
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post #4411 of 10033 Old 02-12-2011, 08:06 AM
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There can be convergence issues with extreme foreground images in any 3D format, the human eye really can't resolve them if they move fast or break the edge of the picture plane. You'll see this even in a commercial theater. If everything else looks right and it's just the occasional "pop out" that has this, things are probably outputting right.

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post #4412 of 10033 Old 02-12-2011, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j5627429 View Post

I've got the RS40 to say its getting 1080p 24(FP) using TMT5 and a Radeon 5770, everything seems right and the 3D effect is there, but it looks like the convergence of the L&R images is way off on all of the things in the image that are supposed to pop out further off the screen. It seems to be the same with both the JVC glasses and the X103. Is this the "ghosting" people are talking about or is the AMD card (or TMT5) just not outputting 3D correctly?

You can get a lot of good people help you with HTPC/RS-40 issues and questions in this dedicated thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1301845

Good luck.

GO HABS GO!
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post #4413 of 10033 Old 02-12-2011, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j5627429 View Post

I've got the RS40 to say its getting 1080p 24(FP) using TMT5 and a Radeon 5770, everything seems right and the 3D effect is there, but it looks like the convergence of the L&R images is way off on all of the things in the image that are supposed to pop out further off the screen. It seems to be the same with both the JVC glasses and the X103. Is this the "ghosting" people are talking about or is the AMD card (or TMT5) just not outputting 3D correctly?

This is not 'ghosting'. Blu-ray 3D players have a setting for screen size that adjusts the left/right offset to match the screen size. This is to provide the proper 3D image depth. You may want to check to see if your PC-based 3D player or the driver for your graphics card has an adjustment for screen size?

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post #4414 of 10033 Old 02-12-2011, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S A M 33 View Post

There can be convergence issues with extreme foreground images in any 3D format, the human eye really can't resolve them if they move fast or break the edge of the picture plane. You'll see this even in a commercial theater. If everything else looks right and it's just the occasional "pop out" that has this, things are probably outputting right.

S A M 33

Sam thanks for the reply, and congrats on finally getting your new projector up and running.

What I'm seeing is definitely not a motion issue. It is present with all still images. Basically it looks like the left lens of the glasses doesnt make the image for the right eye completely disappear and the same for the right lens. Everything that is supposed to be farther forward or backward has a very noticeable double image on both sides of the middle 3D one. All the stuff that is only "slightly 3D" looks perfect though.
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post #4415 of 10033 Old 02-12-2011, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

This is not 'ghosting'. Blu-ray 3D players have a setting for screen size that adjusts the left/right offset to match the screen size. This is to provide the proper 3D image depth. You may want to check to see if your PC-based 3D player or the driver for your graphics card has an adjustment for screen size?

That sounds promising, Ron. Thanks for the tip. I'll look through the software player's menus and see if I can find anything.
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post #4416 of 10033 Old 02-12-2011, 08:37 AM
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Well as some folks say above, you may need to check with the HTPC guys then, because that doesn't sound correct.

While I know a fair bit about computers, I don't use one in my theater at all.

Best of luck, I'm sure you'll get it worked out!

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post #4417 of 10033 Old 02-12-2011, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j5627429 View Post

Sam thanks for the reply, and congrats on finally getting your new projector up and running.

What I'm seeing is definitely not a motion issue. It is present with all still images. Basically it looks like the left lens of the glasses doesnt make the image for the right eye completely disappear and the same for the right lens. Everything that is supposed to be farther forward or backward has a very noticeable double image on both sides of the middle 3D one. All the stuff that is only "slightly 3D" looks perfect though.

That sounds like cross-talk or "ghosting" to me. The image should be solid - no residual image to the side or above or whatever. If you're seeing what looks like the same image but fainter and to the side of the main image then it's definitely "ghosting", IMO. If you're seeing three images then I haven't a clue what the problem is. Maybe you've discovered a new artifact called "double ghosting"! Now that's really scary.
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post #4418 of 10033 Old 02-12-2011, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by desray2k View Post


9500k? Wouldn't that be too 'cool' in terms of picture image?!

Oops, I meant 8500k
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post #4419 of 10033 Old 02-12-2011, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by c5z06 View Post

Mines 15' away from a 130" HP , you'll be fine and happy. ~12' away eyes to screen.

Hi,

What color temperature do you use when viewing 3D?

Do you use the 3D Picture mode when viewing 3D?

If so, do you use the 3D gamma settings? A or B?

Thanks.

Larry
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post #4420 of 10033 Old 02-12-2011, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by S A M 33 View Post

Again, I'm shooting it 23 FEET onto a 1.0 gain white wall, 10 feet wide. Also again, I know most here would find that too much, but I'm satisfied - in high lamp mode however. But I knew this going in, and since I only watch movies on weekends, I'm about 10 hours a week of usage, so I don't sweat the bulb issue too much. I was averaging 2-3 years on the last PJ[...].

OK, so 3D? Yes, that's dimmer than I'd like at my current size, but I'm going to paint a gain screen, and also I can zoom the image a bit smaller. Still, it was satisfying, and as many here have said, SIZE MATTERS with 3D. The 3D picture mode did seem best to me here, it looks horrible without the glasses on.

Hi Sam,

Thanks for your observations.

What color temperature do you use when viewing 3D?

Do you use the 3D Picture mode when viewing 3D?

If so, do you use the 3D gamma settings? A or B?

Thanks again.

Larry
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post #4421 of 10033 Old 02-12-2011, 10:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by S A M 33 View Post

Boy did I have fun last night, like a 12 year old at Christmas! Everything installed so easy and worked better than I hoped!

Going from 7-year-old technology you really notice some differences.

Just a quick few impressions:

The brightness on the RS40 is EXACTLY as the Projector Central calculator predicted - just a tad less than my old Sanyo. I've been looking for a full 1080p unit to replace it for at least 2 years, and this is the first one to more or less equal it that's not dlp (I see rainbows) or over 10k.

Again, I'm shooting it 23 FEET onto a 1.0 gain white wall, 10 feet wide. Also again, I know most here would find that too much, but I'm satisfied - in high lamp mode however. But I knew this going in, and since I only watch movies on weekends, I'm about 10 hours a week of usage, so I don't sweat the bulb issue too much. I was averaging 2-3 years on the last PJ.

Bottom line, I think most here are going to be very happy with this unit's brightness - if you're shooting 100 inches onto a screen with any gain at the more average 10 - 15 ft. throw most seem to use, I can't help but think this is one of the brighter projectors around.

D-ILA - WOW! The blacks are really amazing compared to the old Sanyo, and I zoomed the image up to 12 feet wide, NO PIXELS VISIBLE until I was a foot from the screen.
Out of the box, much nicer picture than my last one started with. I had to do hours of tweaking to get the Sanyo looking good, and while I'll mess with this (not to the degree many here will of course) more, the various picture pre-sets give you a decent place to start IMHO.

OK, so 3D? Yes, that's dimmer than I'd like at my current size, but I'm going to paint a gain screen, and also I can zoom the image a bit smaller. Still, it was satisfying, and as many here have said, SIZE MATTERS with 3D. The 3D picture mode did seem best to me here, it looks horrible without the glasses on.

Ghosting? Depends on the material, but I do see some, not enough to bother me, you're talking to a guy who'd been projecting home-brew anaglyphs in the past.
It worked perfectly, a piece of cake to set up.

Also got a new OPPO 93, and to my utter amazement I was able to play recorded side-by-side 3D material off a USB hard drive, no problem! Just went into the JVC's menu and set it to SBS, bingo! The OPPO recognized the drive right away. I never really thought that would work.

I won't bore you guys any more, I know most of you want more hard-core tweaking specs and info than a guy like me will provide. Thanks again to the many here for all the great knowledge that helped me figure all this out.

S A M 33

Sam what screen paint are you going to use ? Cause that's what I did.
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post #4422 of 10033 Old 02-12-2011, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Mikewarrior View Post

Oh great, that's a lot of help thanks! *Sarcasm*

Mine is a 106" High Power and I'm hoping 14' is far enough back.

You know Mike, if you'd actually read this thread and some of Joe's insightful posts you'd know that comment is crapola! A screen's relationship to a PJ is subjective and it requires testing on your part in order to determine a "sweet spot". No two will be the same even if the screen and PJ are the same model because of environment variables.

It's like dating ten different girls... each one has their own and it's up to you to find it if you want to score!

Go to projectorcentral and find the midpoint then play around till you find what you're looking for (which is probably your only option at this point with those comments!).

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post #4423 of 10033 Old 02-12-2011, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by coolplazma View Post


That is one ugly ass shelf and for $70 ouch. They must be confident you'll close your eyes due to the ugliness and not see the price on checkout. Maybe they'll include a mint with it.

Try this Peerless shelf: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ef=oss_product a few of us RSxx owners have. It's cheaper, prettier and will leave some change in your pocket for a lap dance at Haflich's Swingin Cigar Theater.

That doesn't look like a shelf to me. Or at least it doesn't on my iPhone. Do you by any chance have a picture of it in action? Or do you just balance the projector on the two arms that come out of the base on wall?

I admit the shelf above is ugly, but it was the best I could find with out any suggestions at the time. I have not ordered it yet so that is good.
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post #4424 of 10033 Old 02-12-2011, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j5627429 View Post

Sam thanks for the reply, and congrats on finally getting your new projector up and running.

What I'm seeing is definitely not a motion issue. It is present with all still images. Basically it looks like the left lens of the glasses doesnt make the image for the right eye completely disappear and the same for the right lens. Everything that is supposed to be farther forward or backward has a very noticeable double image on both sides of the middle 3D one. All the stuff that is only "slightly 3D" looks perfect though.

see post #1124

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...292384&page=38
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post #4425 of 10033 Old 02-12-2011, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

You know Mike, if you'd actually read this thread and some of Joe's insightful posts you'd know that comment is crapola! A screen's relationship to a PJ is subjective and it requires testing on your part in order to determine a "sweet spot". No two will be the same even if the screen and PJ are the same model because of environment variables.

It's like dating ten different girls... each one has their own and it's up to you to find it if you want to score!

Go to projectorcentral and find the midpoint then play around till you find what you're looking for (which is probably your only option at this point with those comments!).

I first have to say... Thanks everyone for the help, even you.

Now, I would have read the thread if it didn't have a kajillion posts. Also, I would have read Joe's posts, if I knew about Joe beforehand. I just needed to know if 14' throw distance was good for this projector, before I went all in spending multiple thousands of dollars.

I also don't know much about the whole theater projector set-up because I'm very new to it. I just recently got the High Power Da-Lite off someone's helpful recommendation here. (Thanks whoever you are) So sorry if I annoyed you with my crapola questions. I'll try not to ever do it again.

*EDIT* Btw, I would try to score with all ten girls.
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post #4426 of 10033 Old 02-12-2011, 05:08 PM
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"What color temperature do you use when viewing 3D?

Do you use the 3D Picture mode when viewing 3D?

If so, do you use the 3D gamma settings? A or B?"


I'm using the 3D setting, have played with it some but so far it does seem best to me. I think its temperature is like 8500? The glasses are real warm, so it needs to be a cool, bright picture.

I prefer gamma B so far.

S A M 33
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post #4427 of 10033 Old 02-12-2011, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e.mann30 View Post

Sam what screen paint are you going to use ? Cause that's what I did.

I just completed painting it with the Sherwin Williams paint the recent Projector Central article recommended.

I have to tell you, I doubted I'd see much difference. I assume my screen had a gain of 1, as it was simply drywall with three coats of Valspar white primer on it. I built the theater room from scratch in my basement, and intended to paint it with some final coat of white, but when I shot my projector on it at the time I thought it looked fine, it was nice and smooth so I figured leave well enough alone.

Well, I have to say I DO see improvement with the Sherwin Williams! It's not even that dry yet, but there's barely any streaks, no hot-spotting and the picture is brighter - I'd say it's now every bit as bright with the new JVC as it was with my old Sanyo. Makes sense too, as the numbers plugged in to the Projector Central calculator say just that if you raise the gain to 1.1, which is what this is supposed to be now.

CORALINE in 3D is disappointingly dark to me, but it shows improvement with this paint. Now I'm seriously considering getting some higher gain paint (or mixing a DIY version myself, there's plenty of info here in the screen thread) and pushing on up to 1.3 or so, just for the 3D. As long as the color stays consistent and there's no hot-spotting, which I absolutely hate, I may be game.

Boy these JVC's have great contrast!

S A M 33
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post #4428 of 10033 Old 02-12-2011, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikewarrior View Post

I first have to say... Thanks everyone for the help, even you.

Now, I would have read the thread if it didn't have a kajillion posts. Also, I would have read Joe's posts, if I knew about Joe beforehand. I just needed to know if 14' throw distance was good for this projector, before I went all in spending multiple thousands of dollars.

I also don't know much about the whole theater projector set-up because I'm very new to it. I just recently got the High Power Da-Lite off someone's helpful recommendation here. (Thanks whoever you are) So sorry if I annoyed you with my crapola questions. I'll try not to ever do it again.

*EDIT* Btw, I would try to score with all ten girls.


We've all been there before Mike and it just takes research to gain the answers/knowledge you seek . . . thus the "search" function, so as to weed through those "kajillion" posts. You just have to be a warrior about it.

And being a Marine... I did score with all ten!

Kevin

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post #4429 of 10033 Old 02-12-2011, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

see post #1124

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...292384&page=38

Thanks for the link. I definitely see 3 images; a good one in the middle, then two faint ones on the left and right. I think my situation is more than just my brain trying to mix the LR images together though. I have demoed an RS40 with a 3dBD player before that had none of this "3D ghosting" that i'm seeing. If I take the glasses off and just hold them in front of the screen, I can easily see with both my eyes that each lens is not completely filtering out the other image. I'll try different players and video cards i guess.
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post #4430 of 10033 Old 02-13-2011, 12:53 AM
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Got a question for you guys that have both the Acer 3d projector and the RS40. I seem to notice less 3D image depth when using the RS40 vs. the Acer. Is that the same for you guys?

Is there a setting to increase the 3D image depth on the RS40 or the Oppo BDP-93? I just don't see effects pop out as much.
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post #4431 of 10033 Old 02-13-2011, 03:07 AM
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How is the experience with the bulb performance?

Here my measurements in normal lamp mode@D65:

hours lumen loss
000 833 0%
120 630 24%
200 563 32%
220 495 41%
320 495 41%
330 450 46%

I only used the eco lamp mode until yet, but now I have to swith to the loud "normal" lamp mode.

I hope that I only got a bad bulb!! Any comments about that?
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post #4432 of 10033 Old 02-13-2011, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepardos View Post

How is the experience with the bulb performance?

Here my measurements in normal lamp mode@D65:

hours lumen loss
000 833 0%
120 630 24%
200 563 32%
220 495 41%
320 495 41%
330 450 46%

I only used the eco lamp mode until yet, but now I have to swith to the loud "normal" lamp mode.

I hope that I only got a bad bulb!! Any comments about that?

In previous models that sort of drop has been seen, but I think its too much...much too much. I would consider that faulty.

In comparison at peak output (which is not what you were measuring here), my X7 is at 1150 lumens at 200 hours. In other words I have lost a bit over 10%. The strange thing is, it read similar at 100 hours as if I have lost nothing in that time.

You are not alone with this drop. But my understanding is that even if you were in high bulb mode all the time, it should not drop below 50% until after 2000 hours. JVC failed on this a lot with previous models. I would complain.
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post #4433 of 10033 Old 02-13-2011, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepardos View Post

How is the experience with the bulb performance?

Here my measurements in normal lamp mode@D65:

hours lumen loss
000 833 0%
120 630 24%
200 563 32%
220 495 41%
320 495 41%
330 450 46%

I only used the eco lamp mode until yet, but now I have to swith to the loud "normal" lamp mode.

I hope that I only got a bad bulb!! Any comments about that?

I have a question: How are you measuring this brightness? Are you using a test pattern on your BluRay player for example? The reason I ask is that yesterday I connected my new Lumagen Mini3D and as I installed a new lamp (HD350) earlier this week I checked the levels last night. I found it had dropped considerably since Thursday night from 95 lux to 65 lux on the same test pattern (AVS HD709 disc). Then I found that if I used the 100IRE test pattern in the Lumagen it was back at 95Lux.

Obviously I need to do some further setting up of my Mini3D, so I should be able to achieve the same brightness from the test disc 100 IRE pattern once setup properly. I'm just commenting that you need to compare like for like, which last night I wasn't. Perhaps a more consistant check would be to use the test pattern in the projector and use the same (uneditted) mode each time as any slight changes to the greyscale settings will effect the reading.

If those readings really are consistantly measured, then that is a bigger drop than I would have expected over that time. It is this sort of thing (and the instability of the colour temp over time) that makes me long for an LED powered model at a reasonable price...

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #4434 of 10033 Old 02-13-2011, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepardos View Post

How is the experience with the bulb performance?

Here my measurements in normal lamp mode@D65:

hours lumen loss
000 833 0%
120 630 24%
200 563 32%
220 495 41%
320 495 41%
330 450 46%

I only used the eco lamp mode until yet, but now I have to swith to the loud "normal" lamp mode.

I hope that I only got a bad bulb!! Any comments about that?

Hi,

I just want to clarify terminology.

The manual refers to Lamp Power settings of Normal and High.

Were these measurements made in the Normal Lamp Power setting?

Thanks.

Larry
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post #4435 of 10033 Old 02-13-2011, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepardos View Post

How is the experience with the bulb performance?

Here my measurements in normal lamp mode@D65:

hours lumen loss
000 833 0%
120 630 24%
200 563 32%
220 495 41%
320 495 41%
330 450 46%

I only used the eco lamp mode until yet, but now I have to swith to the loud "normal" lamp mode.

I hope that I only got a bad bulb!! Any comments about that?


Well if measured correctly that is pretty incredible. I have 450hrs on the RS-40 now and I use the aperture at -13 on "Natural" from -15 when I first started in Normal lamp mode (which you refered to as eco). There's no way mine dropped in half. I do not have a measuring instrument. I need to get me one of these.

EDIT: since the unit is not calibrated, I guess I don't suffer the drop that is expected from proper calibration.

GO HABS GO!
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post #4436 of 10033 Old 02-13-2011, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by j5627429 View Post

I've got the RS40 to say its getting 1080p 24(FP) using TMT5 and a Radeon 5770, everything seems right and the 3D effect is there, but it looks like the convergence of the L&R images is way off on all of the things in the image that are supposed to pop out further off the screen. It seems to be the same with both the JVC glasses and the X103. Is this the "ghosting" people are talking about or is the AMD card (or TMT5) just not outputting 3D correctly?


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Originally Posted by j5627429 View Post

Sam thanks for the reply, and congrats on finally getting your new projector up and running.

What I'm seeing is definitely not a motion issue. It is present with all still images. Basically it looks like the left lens of the glasses doesnt make the image for the right eye completely disappear and the same for the right lens. Everything that is supposed to be farther forward or backward has a very noticeable double image on both sides of the middle 3D one. All the stuff that is only "slightly 3D" looks perfect though.

Since your initial post didn't mention see the double images, I assumed for my earlier response that you ware simply having a setup issue for the correct offset between the right and left images that would be appropriate for your screen size. If you can close one eye and see double images that is ghosting, or crosstalk. Having objects within the image (i.e., foreground to background) appear at the wrong depth or having the overall depth compressed or unrealistically expanded is caused by not having the appropriate offset (i.e., screen size setting in the source device). Perhaps you hare having both issues.

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post #4437 of 10033 Old 02-13-2011, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post
I have a question: How are you measuring this brightness? Are you using a test pattern on your BluRay player for example? The reason I ask is that yesterday I connected my new Lumagen Mini3D and as I installed a new lamp (HD350) earlier this week I checked the levels last night. I found it had dropped considerably since Thursday night from 95 lux to 65 lux on the same test pattern (AVS HD709 disc). Then I found that if I used the 100IRE test pattern in the Lumagen it was back at 95Lux.

Obviously I need to do some further setting up of my Mini3D, so I should be able to achieve the same brightness from the test disc 100 IRE pattern once setup properly. I'm just commenting that you need to compare like for like, which last night I wasn't. Perhaps a more consistant check would be to use the test pattern in the projector and use the same (uneditted) mode each time as any slight changes to the greyscale settings will effect the reading.

If those readings really are consistantly measured, then that is a bigger drop than I would have expected over that time. It is this sort of thing (and the instability of the colour temp over time) that makes me long for an LED powered model at a reasonable price...
I always use the 100IRE Reference Testpattern from my Lumagen XS. The results are measured in High mode!

After 120h and 220h I recalibrate my X3 to D65 again, because the strong drop in red, shifted my gamma from 2.2 to 2.4 and I hade to compensate with green and blue to achieve D65 again!

So I hope really that this is only a bad bulb and I can expect better results with a new one....
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post #4438 of 10033 Old 02-13-2011, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post
In previous models that sort of drop has been seen, but I think its too much...much too much. I would consider that faulty.

In comparison at peak output (which is not what you were measuring here), my X7 is at 1150 lumens at 200 hours. In other words I have lost a bit over 10%. The strange thing is, it read similar at 100 hours as if I have lost nothing in that time.

You are not alone with this drop. But my understanding is that even if you were in high bulb mode all the time, it should not drop below 50% until after 2000 hours. JVC failed on this a lot with previous models. I would complain.
Where do you know that I'm not alone with this drop? I also saw that form 220h to 320h nothing has changed with the bulb but now it starts to drop further.

If I read that you only lost 10% in 200h, than it is really a bad bulb! I never had luck with any bulb of my previous JVC's
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post #4439 of 10033 Old 02-13-2011, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
Since your initial post didn't mention see the double images, I assumed for my earlier response that you ware simply having a setup issue for the correct offset between the right and left images that would be appropriate for your screen size. If you can close one eye and see double images that is ghosting, or crosstalk. Having objects within the image (i.e., foreground to background) appear at the wrong depth or having the overall depth compressed or unrealistically expanded is caused by not having the appropriate offset (i.e., screen size setting in the source device). Perhaps you hare having both issues.
Appreciate your clarification, Ron. I should have been more specific about what I was seeing. If I take the glasses off and hold them up in front of the screen I can easily see that some of the right content is going into the left and some of the left is going into the right. So yes I definitely have crosstalk. It is pretty severe, and I don't see anyone else mentioning it being this much of a problem, so I am going to assume it is probably not my RS40 at fault; it must be a problem with my 24p(FP) playback source.
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post #4440 of 10033 Old 02-13-2011, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Shepardos View Post
Where do you know that I'm not alone with this drop? I also saw that form 220h to 320h nothing has changed with the bulb but now it starts to drop further.

If I read that you only lost 10% in 200h, than it is really a bad bulb! I never had luck with any bulb of my previous JVC's
Because I have seen a couple of posts previously reporting faster losses than expected in brightness as well as a few with very rapid drops. And in addition, you have already seen the thread about the other JVCs bulb life like the RS20/25 etc where people have lost 50% by 500 hours. I don't know why JVC should be worse than other brands, but bulbs failing to achieve their expected life seems to be all too common. It is disappointing.

Although my bulb has held up its brightness, the loss in the first 100 hours was almost entirely in red. So my gains are around -40 for blue and green.
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